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I can say "i blitz goku" and he can't debunk meoh shit he's viewing the thread wait for him to post the 3 paragraph long debunk
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I can say "i blitz goku" and he can't debunk meoh shit he's viewing the thread wait for him to post the 3 paragraph long debunk
undebunkableI can say "i blitz goku" and he can't debunk me
Then can you give us your thoughts.. I also read a bit of demon king daimao and this is not exactly accurate
Ayoo i sense 8 pages !!
Sneak some downplaywe just need to get a mod, if this gets accepted i'm gonna do the editing
fineStella could you please shut up about the "goku solos your verse" shit, it invites toxicity. I don't give a shit about this verse but still it's annoying.
this was the same guyAlso, I have genuine questions based on how the arc writers actually made this sort of retcon, sounds like a hater typed the last arcs lmao, this is worse than Retcon of Beyonder.
What do you mean? The last arcs are literally the ones where 99% of the Cosmology is. It was just severely misinterpreted. There is no retconAlso, I have genuine questions based on how the arc writers actually made this sort of retcon, sounds like a hater typed the last arcs lmao, this is worse than Retcon of Beyonder.
Oh, so you are saying all the context were misinterpretated. Then I have nothing to say. : pWhat do you mean? The last arcs are literally the ones where 99% of the Cosmology is. It was just severely misinterpreted. There is no retcon
For starters, the wiki doesn't treat R>F differences literally. Because in that case the verse would be ********. So yes, the higher space would explicitly have to be infinite. And there are multiple statements explicitly saying that the afterlife is meant to be a reflection of the original world. And iirc they also considered time travel in the original world impossible from the afterlife, which is bullshit if Afterlife held any temporal or causal superiority to it."space if said to be finite, so there can't be infinite hierarchies"
This is a bad argument for so many reasons. For a start, we are dealing with reality-fiction hierarchies. Space size isn't really relevant to their existence. You can have a lesser plane of fiction contained in a single book.
Where is this said? Even in the novel afterlife is treated as a different dimensions existing seperate from each other. And the OP provides context that Akuto was rebuilding the same space aka afterlife for each possibility, where does this "contains infinite alternate universes" even comes from???Then, the story in question explicitly contain things like alternate worlds, but most importantly also things like the very story Akuto came from before entering teh afterlife. The same story with infinite virtual dimensions and infinite alternate universes. Think these are contained in a finite space?
So you agree that the verse uses "story" or "fiction" metaphorically? Why do you then take all those statements literally when it benefits the Cosmology but "metaphoric" when it doesn't? Seems like double standards"TLOI said she's also just a story from someone's perspective"
Again, the verse has a philosophy in which all experience and reality itself is a story. So yeah, fro a human perspective everything the perceive is a story. That includes TLOI, but only from that perspective.
“Make a world where I’m the hero.” “Huh?” Akuto was stunned. “A world where I’m the hero, I said. One with as low a story density as possible.” “You just want to be the hero? ... No, that doesn’t feel likely.” “Correct. A world where I’m a normal person. That’s what I want you to make.” Hiroshi was serious. And that only made Akuto more confused. “What happens then?” “I’m going to redo my life, with my memories, in a world which isn’t very story-fied. And there, I’m going to write a story about destroying stories.” Akuto’s eyes went wide. “That’s... an unexpected idea.” “Stories have their good sides... so maybe it’s impossible to get rid of them entirely. But if nothing else, I’ll be able to put an end to your story.” “In other words, you’re going to write my story... and end it.” “Yes.”
The original afterlife is a reflection of the original world... before Akuto reality warped it.For starters, the wiki doesn't treat R>F differences literally. Because in that case the verse would be ********. So yes, the higher space would explicitly have to be infinite. And there are multiple statements explicitly saying that the afterlife is meant to be a reflection of the original world. And iirc they also considered time travel in the original world impossible from the afterlife, which is bullshit if Afterlife held any temporal or causal superiority to it.
One of the stories Akuto created in the afterlife is an isekaiWhere is this said? Even in the novel afterlife is treated as a different dimensions existing seperate from each other. And the OP provides context that Akuto was rebuilding the same space aka afterlife for each possibility, where does this "contains infinite alternate universes" even comes from???
So that story can't be just one world.Yoshie was reincarnated in a different world and retained her memories of her previous life as a modern person. The other world’s science was at the level of the middle ages, so she did great things with her scientific abilities. This story’s conclusion was not a story, so the test of the possibility ended quickly. This was because he was unable to deny the value of finally affirming the modern.
Because context? Also, for that particular statement, it's not so much metaphorically in the verse. Those stories actually exist in it. TLOI in the story is just not TLOI outside of it.So you agree that the verse uses "story" or "fiction" metaphorically? Why do you then take all those statements literally when it benefits the Cosmology but "metaphoric" when it doesn't? Seems like double standards
That is something they literally do, though? Chapter 5 plays within. And the story to end Akuto's stories is how the ending of the novel happens.To show another example about "story" being used metaphorically:
Hiroshi asks Akuto to create a story where he would write the ending of Akuto's story... I don't think I need to spell the obvious
Doesn't mean much because even the previous version is considered transcendent.The original afterlife is a reflection of the original world... before Akuto reality warped it.
Well, if you say so. Not like it changes anything since the afterlife is treated as being a reflection of the original world and comparable to it in size. Plus the context of afterlife literally being an escape from the destruction of the original world.And no, you're wrong on the infinite stuff. Not the case for reality-fiction hierarchies. Not to appeal to authority, but I was involved in writing a lot of those standards.
The OP shows that Akuto was basically rebuilding the afterlife for each possibility, and being an isekai doesn't really mean the original world has to exist in it. Since it was shown that Akuto doesn't even create his worlds genuinely, he literally just creates the story at the beginning and gives people false memories. Generating false memories of some previous life isn't off the possibilities.One of the stories Akuto created in the afterlife is an isekai
Earth and afterlife are literally treated as seperate dimensions.And it contains worlds like Akuto's own one, since he created (or was supposed to create) all stories. He did so by calculating backwards from his original story, i.e. the world of the living.
“That’s hard to understand. There are so many worlds, you know. Earth. Virtual Phase Space. Other dimensions. The outer universe. The afterlife... did I miss any?” Hiroshi frowned.
It would still be metaphoric, since even if we assume that the LOI in context is the self insert in the story it would still not be fictional to the guy who was speaking. Plus the "context" never clearly describes the relationship between stories and reality in the verse. Tons of context establishes that it is metaphoric, but nothing implies it's actually some ontological transcendence.Because context? Also, for that particular statement, it's not so much metaphorically in the verse. Those stories actually exist in it. TLOI in the story is just not TLOI outside of it.
How can someone that is fictional to Akuto write Akuto's story?That is something they literally do, though? Chapter 5 plays within. And the story to end Akuto's stories is how the ending of the novel happens.
The downgrade is not only meant for their 1-A justifications.It sounds to me like you either not read our justifications for why the verse is ranked as is or haven't understood how we tier things
Firstly, It's just a very important detail to add. Secondly, it's not just the Main Universe:Yes, but nobody is rated universe level for destroying the main universe.
Just to be clear, we can’t detect anything outside the solar system.No, you can’t. But there is something beyond there: another universe.The One seemed to feel more leeway because he began speaking like a teacher.“In other words, this world ends within the solar system?” asked Lily to make sure.Yes. This world goes no further than that and the other world is more or less the same.So you broke through the barrier and passed between worlds to come here?”“Yes, but I was only able to come as a thought entity. What you refer to as the Formless Power is an aggregation of the minds belonging to the aliens like me.”
Well Multiple users did in the previous thread sooooNobody said they are specifically transcendent.
4-D Doraemon when?They are nonetheless reliably stated to be an infinite 4D space that actually exists and that is enough for the rating of anyone that controls them
The quote quite explicitly states they called it 4-D for ***** and giggles just because it was a hard thing for them.It being a complex topic doesn't mean the 4D space statement is wrong
BFRing to a higher dimension? Sounds legit.“That’s right. If we seal him in virtual phase space, he’ll have no more power than an ordinary human. There’s a lot of people who’d like to kill him without harming the people around him.” 2V grinned.
"Many times" when there is only two statements for the amount of possibilities ? Can you cite these supposed "statements"?"it says near infinite once"
It says infinite many times more and that is also the logical indication. Also, translation stuff. The official translation actually uses "endless" instead of "near infinite"
And:無論、世に法則といったものは無限に近く存在するし、それら一つ一つが太極というわけではない。
"of course, in this world, a near infinite number of laws exist, it Doesn't means that each one of those can be called Taikyoku."
-KKK
I can go more but this should be enough.「この大地から遠ざかるほど、黒穹は引き延ばされていき、なにもない無に近づく。それは無限に近い空、神界があるのはここ」
The farther you go from this earth, the more the black dome is stretched and the closer you get to nothingness. It is here, in this near-infinite sky, that the divine realm is located."
-Maou Gakuin
1."current afterlife" or not, it Doesn't mean much.The error here is that the finite space is the finite space of the current afterlife, not the finite space of all of reality. That's also what expands when Akuto creates infinite stories afterwards.
I don't care about what is implied, all I care about is what is shown in the series which is akuto Failing to create them.Long story short, whether he didn't create all is questionable and even if he didn't he would still retain his ranking since he is reliably stated to be able to. I believe I explained as much in the verse explanation blog.
Well, it's kinda redundant because he didn't do either.It wouldn't even matter to his ranking, but let me point out that he required infinite time to check (i.e. view / read) all stories not infinite time just for mindlessly creating them. There is a difference
1. 無数/Musū=/=infinite no matter what."It says countless alternate dimensions when using alternate japanese translation"
The term used can also translate to infinite, a choice both the fan translation and the official english translation of the novel happened to make. Most likely not a mistake, although it would, in fact, not actually influence anybody's rankings.
That's just proves my point further.You can also travel to the afterlife by dying, which is basically what that thing does. The ability to travel
1. Breaking boundaries? Literally what? Scans Would REALLY be appreciated.The afterlife was finite. Before Akuto broke its boundaries. Not that it matters, because higher planes of reality can be finite. Especially higher reality-fiction planes.
Can you post scans instead of theories and assumptions? The OP clearly shows the reason it's called infinite is due to a spatial loop.It doesn't really matter but it's a great way to see just how much this is picking quotes out of context. The finite quote is from the original afterlife, the infinite quote is one chapter later after Akuto reality warped it. I don't know... could it maybe be that Akuto made it larger? I know crazy idea.
Somebody made a thread to upgrade them a while ago using this reasoning.Nobody claimed anything different. It's not relevant to the tiering, as that is not the hierarchy being referred to.
"This world" was referring to the afterlife:No? The quote literally states that they can affect the world they are in with their will.
The world of the afterlife, hm?” muttered Akuto. “If it exists, I wonder what it’s like.”
“Who knows. I only half believe it myself. If this world is false and it’s something like the Law of Identity’s dream, then there must be an afterlife.” She gave a weak smile. “But then I start wondering what will happen if it doesn’t exist.”
“If even you’re worried about that, I guess I can’t blame myself for being worried.”
“You’re overestimating me. Although I’m glad you think so highly of me.” She nodded and then stared into the distance. “They say you don’t even have the right to go to hell if you haven’t done good or evil, so I wonder where I’ll end up. At the very least, I haven’t done anything particularly good. I wonder what kind of afterlife the Law of Identity has prepared.”
“Who knows. But to me, you didn’t seem like someone who never did anything.” Akuto smiled. “And even if this world was created by the Law of Identity, we all have our own wills. If our wills were strong enough, do you think we managed to influence this world?”
Never claimed such thing.Not to mention that "influence with strong will" translating to "can manipulate them" is a huge jump in logic.
1.proof that every layer has stories?Way to take that out of context. For a start, stories exist on every layer (excpect the anti-universe). The stories fighting back are not the one's on a lesser plane than Akuto. "Fighting back" is also not literal here. The novel follows a philosophy in that experience itself is a story. Human thinking is story-based. What Akuto says when he states stories are fighting back is that, despite his attempts to destroy all stories, he can't escape them, as he in the end still is in a story.
No where is implied or said.Time is allowed to pass. That doesn't contradict it being a higher plane.
They're the same (albeit The 4 main ones seem special than the rest), here He talks about summoning Outer Gods then summons Void Universe:You are mixing a lot of beings here that are not the same. Extra-universal gods in the world of the living, extra-universal gods as possibilities in Akuto's stories (which fight Akuto's self-inserts) and extra-universal gods on Akuto's plane of existence (archetypes) are not the same.
And it's pretty clear the same Outer Gods that invaded his stories.“I’ll summon the outer gods.” That surprised even Boichiro. “Can you do that?” “They’ve become stories too, or at least they should have. I don’t know if I can communicate with them on a deep level. We don’t share any stories. But it should be possible.” The instant he said this, a black figure was in the chair. No, everyone understood that it was there. When they turned to look at it, it was a shadow whose race couldn’t even be determined. But when they looked away, there was someone there. They could see it out of the corner of their eye, but they couldn’t make out its gender, let alone its expression. But when they went to get a closer look, it was only a shadow. “I am the Void Universe,” the black figure said. It was a strange voice, only audible if you strained to hear.
Not only that, but there is no proof anywhere that Akuto is "inserting" his avatar or anything of that nature inside these stories so before that argument is even brought up - it is invalid as it's unsupported by anything in the story
Wasn't the reason because the way they did it is not important and definitive enough though?At this point, I wonder if you have read the novel, since she literally did. That was a mere theory of Hiroshi that she couldn't and after countless tries he figured out that no matter what he did, history always fixed itself.
Tropes such as?TLOI is not claimed to be omnipotent. Although, what is meant there, is more so that certain tropes don't appear in her stories.
Ah, good ol turning anti feats to feats.That would at most be an upgrade to other gods... however, I don't think that is meant as the gods being equally powerful at all. I remind that TLOI is stated as one level superior to every entity with a sense of self. Basically, that is a statement from a human perspective, which the story at other parts corrects.
“If only humans can observe the world, then when humans are gone, the world will cease to exist. But if the same person that died can come back to life, that means that someone is controlling this world. Which means it isn’t real,” Yoshie said, and then rubbed her temples like she had a headache.”
Who knows. But to me, you didn’t seem like someone who never did anything.” Akuto smiled. “And even if this world was created by the Law of Identity, we all have our own wills. If our wills were strong enough, do you think we managed to influence this world?”
This doesn’t talk anything about any higher being, it just says that the strong will of the cast can “set something large in motion” in the story. Genuinely lost as to how this debunks anything.“A strong will, huh? Even if we’re nothing but fictional characters?” “Yes. I’m sure we set something large in motion. If I don’t believe that, there’s no reason to be here right now.” “Setting something in motion with a strong will, hm?”
How does that quote prove this? It’s just Hiroshi recalling the different aspects of the cosmology he doesn’t say the afterlife is an alternate dimension he says that the verse (so far to his knowledge) consists of dimensions an afterlife, virtual dimensions, etc.Earth and afterlife are literally treated as seperate dimensions.
What makes you say that? For example why would the statement about the dreams within dreams be metaphorical.It would still be metaphoric, since even if we assume that the LOI in context is the self insert in the story it would still not be fictional to the guy who was speaking. Plus the "context" never clearly describes the relationship between stories and reality in the verse. Tons of context establishes that it is metaphoric, but nothing implies it's actually some ontological transcendence.
How can someone that is fictional to Akuto write Akuto's story?
Just to point out that Mugen Ni/無限に by itself in a phrase translates to Infinitely/Endlessly(any adverb of infinite). The reason why those two phrases you have says ‘near-infinite’ is because of an additional kanji or so.As for the translation part, it Doesn't change much other than proving my point further considering it says "Endless" which high likely implies that the Kanji that is in that statement is 無限に/Mugen Ni which sometimes gets translated endless/near infinity. Here some examples for that:
I agree with the virtual alternate dimension not being a higher dimension, but disagree with it not being infinite.Not to mention said Dimension requires a finite amount of energy to function. and has been shown to be used to BFR/Seal people:
Can you prove he copy-pasted it?The OP was copied and pasted and from the looks of it the relevant chapter numbers or pages are not there
He gave credit at the top of the thread so it doesn’t matter.Can you prove he copy-pasted it?
Oh, nvm thenHe gave credit at the top of the thread so it doesn’t matter.
But it’s the same guy who made the thread about Ruphas and alovenus