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I can say "i blitz goku" and he can't debunk me
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Demon King Daimao downgrade ig
- Thread starter Ningenron
- Start date
- Status
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Then can you give us your thoughts.
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Rikimarox2
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Gucci thread. I agree.
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Very well done debunk with understandable contexts given. It makes me wonder how many other verses are leaving out context for their ratings.
Agree.
Agree.
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Stella could you please shut up about the "goku solos your verse" shit, it invites toxicity. I don't give a shit about this verse but still it's annoying.
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fine
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Also, I have genuine questions based on how the arc writers actually made this sort of retcon, sounds like a hater typed the last arcs lmao, this is worse than Retcon of Beyonder.
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this was the same guy
Darksmash
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What do you mean? The last arcs are literally the ones where 99% of the Cosmology is. It was just severely misinterpreted. There is no retcon
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Oh, so you are saying all the context were misinterpretated. Then I have nothing to say. : p
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Alright guys, let's not derail the thread with excitement for downgrades and give way for the actual discussion
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It sounds to me like you have either not read our justifications for why the verse is ranked as is or haven't understood how we tier things.
"The main universe is solar system sized"
Yes, but nobody is rated universe level for destroying the main universe.
"Virtual alternate realities aren't transcendent"
Nobody said they are specifically transcendent. Nobody denies that they can be programmed like games either, provided you use the law of identities mana waves. They are nonetheless reliably stated to be an infinite 4D space that actually exists and that is enough for the rating of anyone that controls them. It being a complex topic doesn't mean the 4D space statement is wrong.
"it says near infinite once"
It says infinite many times more and that is also the logical indication. Also, translation stuff. The official translation actually uses "endless" instead of "near infinite"
"space if said to be finite, so there can't be infinite hierarchies"
This is a bad argument for so many reasons. For a start, we are dealing with reality-fiction hierarchies. Space size isn't really relevant to their existence. You can have a lesser plane of fiction contained in a single book.
Then, the story in question explicitly contain things like alternate worlds, but most importantly also things like the very story Akuto came from before entering the afterlife. The same story with infinite virtual dimensions and infinite alternate universes. Think these are contained in a finite space?
The error here is that the finite space is the finite space of the current afterlife, not the finite space of all of reality. That's also what expands when Akuto creates infinite stories afterwards.
"Akuto didn't finish creating all stories"
Honestly, read the last thread on downgrades of the verse, since that dealt intensely with it.
Long story short, whether he didn't create all is questionable and even if he didn't he would still retain his ranking since he is reliably stated to be able to. I believe I explained as much in the verse explanation blog.
Let me say, if it comes down to that argument, I'm inclined to close the threat on grounds of this having been discussed recently. So let's focus on other things.
"Akuto needed infinite time to create stories"
It wouldn't even matter to his ranking, but let me point out that he required infinite time to check (i.e. view / read) all stories not infinite time just for mindlessly creating them. There is a difference.
"It says countless alternate dimensions when using alternate japanese translation"
The term used can also translate to infinite, a choice both the fan translation and the official english translation of the novel happened to make. Most likely not a mistake, although it would, in fact, not actually influence anybody's rankings.
"You can travel to the afterlife with magic tech so its not a higher plane"
You can also travel to the afterlife by dying, which is basically what that thing does. The ability to travel somewhere via magic doesn't contradict anything.
"the afterlife is finite"
The afterlife was finite. Before Akuto broke its boundaries. Not that it matters, because higher planes of reality can be finite. Especially higher reality-fiction planes.
"the infinite flat surface Akuto created isn't infinite because another quote says afterlife is finite"
It doesn't really matter but it's a great way to see just how much this is picking quotes out of context. The finite quote is from the original afterlife, the infinite quote is one chapter later after Akuto reality warped it. I don't know... could it maybe be that Akuto made it larger? I know crazy idea.
"story density refers to heavy and light nature"
Nobody claimed anything different. It's not relevant to the tiering, as that is not the hierarchy being referred to.
"they can influence higher layers with their will"
No? The quote literally states that they can affect the world they are in with their will.
Not to mention that "influence with strong will" translating to "can manipulate them" is a huge jump in logic.
"stories can fight back against their creator"
Way to take that out of context. For a start, stories exist on every layer (excpect the anti-universe). The stories fighting back are not the one's on a lesser plane than Akuto. "Fighting back" is also not literal here. The novel follows a philosophy in that experience itself is a story. Human thinking is story-based. What Akuto says when he states stories are fighting back is that, despite his attempts to destroy all stories, he can't escape them, as he in the end still is in a story.
"The stories created by Akuto and gods are capable of fighting each other even though there should have been multiple layers of "fictional transcendence" between them"
Because those are also possibilities. Akuto allowed that to happen, as is well seen by the fact that he literally wipes the stories away after his story creation. When he examined the stories he also allowed himself to be a self-insert in some of them so that he was more directly involved. Nothing contradiction reality-fiction scale here.
"but time passes"
Time is allowed to pass. That doesn't contradict it being a higher plane.
"extra-universal gods stuff"
You are mixing a lot of beings here that are not the same. Extra-universal gods in the world of the living, extra-universal gods as possibilities in Akuto's stories (which fight Akuto's self-inserts) and extra-universal gods on Akuto's plane of existence (archetypes) are not the same.
"The law of identity can't fix time travel stuff"
At this point, I wonder if you have read the novel, since she literally did. That was a mere theory of Hiroshi that she couldn't and after countless tries he figured out that no matter what he did, history always fixed itself.
"Some things are not possessed by TLOI"
TLOI is not claimed to be omnipotent. Although, what is meant there, is more so that certain tropes don't appear in her stories.
"TLOI is of equal importance with other gods"
That would at most be an upgrade to other gods... however, I don't think that is meant as the gods being equally powerful at all. I remind that TLOI is stated as one level superior to every entity with a sense of self. Basically, that is a statement from a human perspective, which the story at other parts corrects.
"But TLOI needs to faceless universe"
Misinterpreting that statement a lot. The Law of Identity is both the god and the principle of recognizing "I am". What is said there is that the faceless universe allows for self-recognition, i.e. includes TLOI as principle. Not that it allows the god to exist.
"TLOI said she's also just a story from someone's perspective"
Again, the verse has a philosophy in which all experience and reality itself is a story. So yeah, from a human perspective everything they perceive is a story. That includes TLOI, but only from that perspective. Basically, they don't perceive the true LOI, which is no surprise since it can't exist on the same level of them. It needs avatars for that i.e. Keena.
In summary, this downgrade attempt had levels of taking things out of context and misrepresenting them.
"The main universe is solar system sized"
Yes, but nobody is rated universe level for destroying the main universe.
"Virtual alternate realities aren't transcendent"
Nobody said they are specifically transcendent. Nobody denies that they can be programmed like games either, provided you use the law of identities mana waves. They are nonetheless reliably stated to be an infinite 4D space that actually exists and that is enough for the rating of anyone that controls them. It being a complex topic doesn't mean the 4D space statement is wrong.
"it says near infinite once"
It says infinite many times more and that is also the logical indication. Also, translation stuff. The official translation actually uses "endless" instead of "near infinite"
"space if said to be finite, so there can't be infinite hierarchies"
This is a bad argument for so many reasons. For a start, we are dealing with reality-fiction hierarchies. Space size isn't really relevant to their existence. You can have a lesser plane of fiction contained in a single book.
Then, the story in question explicitly contain things like alternate worlds, but most importantly also things like the very story Akuto came from before entering the afterlife. The same story with infinite virtual dimensions and infinite alternate universes. Think these are contained in a finite space?
The error here is that the finite space is the finite space of the current afterlife, not the finite space of all of reality. That's also what expands when Akuto creates infinite stories afterwards.
"Akuto didn't finish creating all stories"
Honestly, read the last thread on downgrades of the verse, since that dealt intensely with it.
Long story short, whether he didn't create all is questionable and even if he didn't he would still retain his ranking since he is reliably stated to be able to. I believe I explained as much in the verse explanation blog.
Let me say, if it comes down to that argument, I'm inclined to close the threat on grounds of this having been discussed recently. So let's focus on other things.
"Akuto needed infinite time to create stories"
It wouldn't even matter to his ranking, but let me point out that he required infinite time to check (i.e. view / read) all stories not infinite time just for mindlessly creating them. There is a difference.
"It says countless alternate dimensions when using alternate japanese translation"
The term used can also translate to infinite, a choice both the fan translation and the official english translation of the novel happened to make. Most likely not a mistake, although it would, in fact, not actually influence anybody's rankings.
"You can travel to the afterlife with magic tech so its not a higher plane"
You can also travel to the afterlife by dying, which is basically what that thing does. The ability to travel somewhere via magic doesn't contradict anything.
"the afterlife is finite"
The afterlife was finite. Before Akuto broke its boundaries. Not that it matters, because higher planes of reality can be finite. Especially higher reality-fiction planes.
"the infinite flat surface Akuto created isn't infinite because another quote says afterlife is finite"
It doesn't really matter but it's a great way to see just how much this is picking quotes out of context. The finite quote is from the original afterlife, the infinite quote is one chapter later after Akuto reality warped it. I don't know... could it maybe be that Akuto made it larger? I know crazy idea.
"story density refers to heavy and light nature"
Nobody claimed anything different. It's not relevant to the tiering, as that is not the hierarchy being referred to.
"they can influence higher layers with their will"
No? The quote literally states that they can affect the world they are in with their will.
Not to mention that "influence with strong will" translating to "can manipulate them" is a huge jump in logic.
"stories can fight back against their creator"
Way to take that out of context. For a start, stories exist on every layer (excpect the anti-universe). The stories fighting back are not the one's on a lesser plane than Akuto. "Fighting back" is also not literal here. The novel follows a philosophy in that experience itself is a story. Human thinking is story-based. What Akuto says when he states stories are fighting back is that, despite his attempts to destroy all stories, he can't escape them, as he in the end still is in a story.
"The stories created by Akuto and gods are capable of fighting each other even though there should have been multiple layers of "fictional transcendence" between them"
Because those are also possibilities. Akuto allowed that to happen, as is well seen by the fact that he literally wipes the stories away after his story creation. When he examined the stories he also allowed himself to be a self-insert in some of them so that he was more directly involved. Nothing contradiction reality-fiction scale here.
"but time passes"
Time is allowed to pass. That doesn't contradict it being a higher plane.
"extra-universal gods stuff"
You are mixing a lot of beings here that are not the same. Extra-universal gods in the world of the living, extra-universal gods as possibilities in Akuto's stories (which fight Akuto's self-inserts) and extra-universal gods on Akuto's plane of existence (archetypes) are not the same.
"The law of identity can't fix time travel stuff"
At this point, I wonder if you have read the novel, since she literally did. That was a mere theory of Hiroshi that she couldn't and after countless tries he figured out that no matter what he did, history always fixed itself.
"Some things are not possessed by TLOI"
TLOI is not claimed to be omnipotent. Although, what is meant there, is more so that certain tropes don't appear in her stories.
"TLOI is of equal importance with other gods"
That would at most be an upgrade to other gods... however, I don't think that is meant as the gods being equally powerful at all. I remind that TLOI is stated as one level superior to every entity with a sense of self. Basically, that is a statement from a human perspective, which the story at other parts corrects.
"But TLOI needs to faceless universe"
Misinterpreting that statement a lot. The Law of Identity is both the god and the principle of recognizing "I am". What is said there is that the faceless universe allows for self-recognition, i.e. includes TLOI as principle. Not that it allows the god to exist.
"TLOI said she's also just a story from someone's perspective"
Again, the verse has a philosophy in which all experience and reality itself is a story. So yeah, from a human perspective everything they perceive is a story. That includes TLOI, but only from that perspective. Basically, they don't perceive the true LOI, which is no surprise since it can't exist on the same level of them. It needs avatars for that i.e. Keena.
In summary, this downgrade attempt had levels of taking things out of context and misrepresenting them.
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Darksmash
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For starters, the wiki doesn't treat R>F differences literally. Because in that case the verse would be ********. So yes, the higher space would explicitly have to be infinite. And there are multiple statements explicitly saying that the afterlife is meant to be a reflection of the original world. And iirc they also considered time travel in the original world impossible from the afterlife, which is bullshit if Afterlife held any temporal or causal superiority to it.
Where is this said? Even in the novel afterlife is treated as a different dimensions existing seperate from each other. And the OP provides context that Akuto was rebuilding the same space aka afterlife for each possibility, where does this "contains infinite alternate universes" even comes from???
So you agree that the verse uses "story" or "fiction" metaphorically? Why do you then take all those statements literally when it benefits the Cosmology but "metaphoric" when it doesn't? Seems like double standards
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The original afterlife is a reflection of the original world... before Akuto reality warped it.
And no, you're wrong on the infinite stuff. Not the case for reality-fiction hierarchies. Not to appeal to authority, but I was involved in writing a lot of those standards.
Don't see how any of the time travel stuff is a contradiction. They can time travel to lesser planes of realities and back. Nothing wrong with that.
One of the stories Akuto created in the afterlife is an isekai
So that story can't be just one world.
And it contains worlds like Akuto's own one, since he created (or was supposed to create) all stories. He did so by calculating backwards from his original story, i.e. the world of the living.
I would advise reading the cosmology explanation. That has pretty much all quotes you need. That goes for everyone commenting here. Reading that is a good first step.
Because context? Also, for that particular statement, it's not so much metaphorically in the verse. Those stories actually exist in it. TLOI in the story is just not TLOI outside of it.
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That is something they literally do, though? Chapter 5 plays within. And the story to end Akuto's stories is how the ending of the novel happens.
Darksmash
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Doesn't mean much because even the previous version is considered transcendent.
Well, if you say so. Not like it changes anything since the afterlife is treated as being a reflection of the original world and comparable to it in size. Plus the context of afterlife literally being an escape from the destruction of the original world.
The OP shows that Akuto was basically rebuilding the afterlife for each possibility, and being an isekai doesn't really mean the original world has to exist in it. Since it was shown that Akuto doesn't even create his worlds genuinely, he literally just creates the story at the beginning and gives people false memories. Generating false memories of some previous life isn't off the possibilities.
Earth and afterlife are literally treated as seperate dimensions.
It would still be metaphoric, since even if we assume that the LOI in context is the self insert in the story it would still not be fictional to the guy who was speaking. Plus the "context" never clearly describes the relationship between stories and reality in the verse. Tons of context establishes that it is metaphoric, but nothing implies it's actually some ontological transcendence.
How can someone that is fictional to Akuto write Akuto's story?
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Disagree FRA.
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How was this verse able to have 1-A?
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The downgrade is not only meant for their 1-A justifications.
Firstly, It's just a very important detail to add. Secondly, it's not just the Main Universe:
Well Multiple users did in the previous thread soooo
4-D Doraemon when?
The quote quite explicitly states they called it 4-D for ***** and giggles just because it was a hard thing for them.
Not to mention said Dimension requires a finite amount of energy to function. and has been shown to be used to BFR/Seal people:
BFRing to a higher dimension? Sounds legit.
"Many times" when there is only two statements for the amount of possibilities ? Can you cite these supposed "statements"?
As for the translation part, it Doesn't change much other than proving my point further considering it says "Endless" which high likely implies that the Kanji that is in that statement is 無限に/Mugen Ni which sometimes gets translated endless/near infinity. Here some examples for that:
And:
I can go more but this should be enough.
1."current afterlife" or not, it Doesn't mean much.
2.the OP already proved that most of the verse is finite.
3.He never created Infinite stories.
Some scans for your claims would be appreciated btw.
I don't care about what is implied, all I care about is what is shown in the series which is akuto Failing to create them.
Well, it's kinda redundant because he didn't do either.
1. 無数/Musū=/=infinite no matter what.
2. The other translations saying otherwise doesn't means anything considering how the original Text is more valid than them.
That's just proves my point further.
1. Breaking boundaries? Literally what? Scans Would REALLY be appreciated.
2.The OP already disprove the afterlife being anything remotely close to R>F shenanigans.
Can you post scans instead of theories and assumptions? The OP clearly shows the reason it's called infinite is due to a spatial loop.
Somebody made a thread to upgrade them a while ago using this reasoning.
"This world" was referring to the afterlife:
Never claimed such thing.
1.proof that every layer has stories?
2. The statement comes from Hiroshi who lives in a low story world though. And not sure why Akuto is relevant.
3.you ignored multiple things from the OP argument such as how those layers shares the same space and time.
4. Wait, you agree that the verse uses "story" and "fiction" in a metaphorical and illusory way? Why do you take some as literal then? Cherry picking much huh.
No where is implied or said.
They're the same (albeit The 4 main ones seem special than the rest), here He talks about summoning Outer Gods then summons Void Universe:
And it's pretty clear the same Outer Gods that invaded his stories.
As for the avatar thingy, Just gonna quote the OP:
Wasn't the reason because the way they did it is not important and definitive enough though?
Tropes such as?
Ah, good ol turning anti feats to feats.
Cite the scan of her being stated as such.
You forgot to mention that said "Human" Is the fusion of Boichiro and Hiroshi which I'm pretty sure at that point has the most knowledge in the series.
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for the sake of efficiency let’s discuss things 1 at a time.
Reality fiction Trancendence:
I don’t really understand these debunks tbh.
-story densities aren’t used In the scaling
“Controlling the universe from outside is enough to consider it not real:
The op EXPICITLY states that the universe(solar system) is the peak limit to the “real world”, therefore outside of the universe can only refer to things literally outside the real world. Which only leaves the afterlife or the layers above it, as again the real world caps out at the universe,
furthermore in the context of the literal exact same scene “outside of the universe” is literally verbatim portrayed to be the afterlife:
“If someone who died and returned possessed identical thoughts、it would prove an afterlife existed。And the existence of a world after death would suggest someone existed outside this world。That someone would be a true god。They would be a god of the outside world。If that resurrection were undoubtedly true、it would make it possible for reality to be fictional。It could be a fictional world created by the god of the outside world”
Next
“Characters that are supposedly fictional from the perspective of the higher being are able to influence them:
For the afterlife having the same time as the real world arguement. Here’s a quote that states the time works differently:
“You only just arrived？" Hiroshi was suspicious because a lot of time had passed since Bouichirou's death。 "Yes、just now。The passage of time may be different here"
We know bouchirou’s death in the real world happened wayyyy before hiroshi’s death, but they both arrive at the afterlife at the same exact time.
@Shuradou address this quote:
“As it had said, "If someone could peer into the afterlife and return from there、they could prove this world is fictional”
(Volume 12 chapter 2)
cus Hiroshi never was fictional to akuto though
“That is exactly why I decided to consult you、the one who exists outside my story、" said Akuto in a serious voice。 "" im fine with complaints like that。After all、we were always a poor match。I was always lighter than you、 "said Hiroshi jokingly。
(Volume 13 chapter 4)
“Hiroshi smiled a bit。he never felt that No、you wouldn't have。 "Akuto smiled too。" But we stand on the same stage。We're probably the only ones who haven't become a concept”
(Volume 13 chapter 4)
Reality fiction Trancendence:
I don’t really understand these debunks tbh.
-story densities aren’t used In the scaling
“Controlling the universe from outside is enough to consider it not real:
The op EXPICITLY states that the universe(solar system) is the peak limit to the “real world”, therefore outside of the universe can only refer to things literally outside the real world. Which only leaves the afterlife or the layers above it, as again the real world caps out at the universe,
furthermore in the context of the literal exact same scene “outside of the universe” is literally verbatim portrayed to be the afterlife:
“If someone who died and returned possessed identical thoughts、it would prove an afterlife existed。And the existence of a world after death would suggest someone existed outside this world。That someone would be a true god。They would be a god of the outside world。If that resurrection were undoubtedly true、it would make it possible for reality to be fictional。It could be a fictional world created by the god of the outside world”
Next
“Characters that are supposedly fictional from the perspective of the higher being are able to influence them:
This doesn’t talk anything about any higher being, it just says that the strong will of the cast can “set something large in motion” in the story. Genuinely lost as to how this debunks anything.
For the afterlife having the same time as the real world arguement. Here’s a quote that states the time works differently:
“You only just arrived？" Hiroshi was suspicious because a lot of time had passed since Bouichirou's death。 "Yes、just now。The passage of time may be different here"
We know bouchirou’s death in the real world happened wayyyy before hiroshi’s death, but they both arrive at the afterlife at the same exact time.
@Shuradou address this quote:
“As it had said, "If someone could peer into the afterlife and return from there、they could prove this world is fictional”
(Volume 12 chapter 2)
How does that quote prove this? It’s just Hiroshi recalling the different aspects of the cosmology he doesn’t say the afterlife is an alternate dimension he says that the verse (so far to his knowledge) consists of dimensions an afterlife, virtual dimensions, etc.
What makes you say that? For example why would the statement about the dreams within dreams be metaphorical.
cus Hiroshi never was fictional to akuto though
“That is exactly why I decided to consult you、the one who exists outside my story、" said Akuto in a serious voice。 "" im fine with complaints like that。After all、we were always a poor match。I was always lighter than you、 "said Hiroshi jokingly。
(Volume 13 chapter 4)
“Hiroshi smiled a bit。he never felt that No、you wouldn't have。 "Akuto smiled too。" But we stand on the same stage。We're probably the only ones who haven't become a concept”
(Volume 13 chapter 4)
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Just to point out that Mugen Ni/無限に by itself in a phrase translates to Infinitely/Endlessly(any adverb of infinite). The reason why those two phrases you have says ‘near-infinite’ is because of an additional kanji or so.
In Masada statement, it has 近 which is ‘near’ and in Maou Gakuin, it has に近い which is ‘close to’
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Yes I’m just saying that Mugen Ni by itself translates to an adverb of infinite(infinitely), not near-infinite since they are two different terms.
Rabbit2002
She/Her- 2,631
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Agree with this
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I agree with the virtual alternate dimension not being a higher dimension, but disagree with it not being infinite.
specifically the op argues that since the VAD is powered by the “real world” which is FINITE that the finite world cannot supply the INFINITE one but that’s not really true. Just because something is finite doesn’t mean it cannot have infinite energy. For example the formless power has infinite energy. yet it exists in the finite world. now yes the op did address the formless power but the argument is literally the definition of red herring:
The op’s singular contention is and I quote “But the only thing it showed were meteor tier feats”
Hes basically saying because the formless power has only shown meteor level feats it can’t have infinite power, yea big time disagree on this.
Regarding akuto creating infinite possibilities I’m neutral leaning towards agreeing with the op. This has been discussed a lot before but I haven’t seen any solid contention to QuasiYuri ‘s point about akuto stopping the creation of stories.
“At that point、Akuto ended the story creation。He had decided it was all meaningless”
with the “possibility stories” containing high-1B constructs debunk, I agree, the reasoning was already very very shaky, to begin with. This was essentially the last straw.
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Can you prove he copy-pasted it?
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He gave credit at the top of the thread so it doesn’t matter.
But it’s the same guy who made the thread about Ruphas and alovenus
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Oh, nvm then
Guardian_Doge
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I don't have an opinion yet, but maybe after I read the op a bit more thoroughly, I'll share some thoughts.
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