Deltarune Kris, Susie, Ralsei as chapter 1 selves and Jevil upgrade

[Golden_Jevil]

So with the appereance of Deltrune chapter 2, thanks to some of feats and calculations such as Noelle freezing enemies, or with this Berdly calculation. Chapter2 characters are buffed to small building level while chapter 1 characters are stayed as Wall Level+. Problem is, chapter 1 characters should scale to chapter 2 ones.

1. Stats:

Well, if you look stats of deltarune chapter 1 characters in chapter 2, you can see they have better, equal or at least close stats compared to chapter 2 characters. Such as Hatty has more defence than Maus (Look at here).


2. Spamton's dialogue when you want to talk about him:

When you want to talk about spamton with him he says this.

In one of the dialogues, Spamton mentions one day he will suprass Jevil (pretty sure he meant Jevil when he said "I'll surpass that damned clown around town) which means this dialogue of Spamton actually implies he was weaker than Jevil. But I can't say it is so reliable. In the end Spamton is mentally broken and often says nothing but some random crap as seen in the game.

3. Third challenge of Party Dojo:

In 3. challenge of party dojo challenge, fun gang fights with Clover, as chapter 2selves. Self explanatory.

 

[Imaginym]

You may be interested in reading through this thread:

https://vsbattles.com/posts/4280405/

To summarize some of the relevant conclusions:

Scaling Chapter 1 enemies to Chapter 2 creates problematic powerscaling, since it can result in backscaling early game characters to much later game characters, plus, there's evidence Kris & co. being stronger in Chapter 2, what with the stat gains post-Fountain Sealing, & the higher feats.

I don't recall the conclusions related to scaling Jevil above Spamton, so I'd wait for more users regarding that.

Regarding Dojo Clover, in theory, it might be notable, since they should be stronger after sealing the Chapter 1 Fountain, but it might be deemed an outlier. I don't know.

I'd wait for more users regarding that, also.

 

[Golden_Jevil]

@Imaginym I know fun gang got some buff in chapter 2, but was it really high enough to move a tier?

Also, don't forget the fact that not only the Clover, but in second challenge of dojo, there was a jigsawry that throws you projectiles, and the projectiles can give fun gang enough damage for 9-A i think..

 

[Imaginym]

@Imaginym I know fun gang got some buff in chapter 2, but was it really high enough to move a tier?

IIRC, there were also other feats that got calculated.

Also, don't forget the fact that not only the Clover, but in second challenge of dojo, there was a jigsawry that throws you projectiles, and the projectiles can give fun gang an enough damage for count as 9-A i think.

This, I feel is a little flimsier than Clover. Jigsawrys are considered fodder/Mook, easily terrorized & absolutely wrecked by Chapter 1 Susie on her own, & the challenge in that is also not to fight them, just to Graze the attacks, meaning their attacks hitting isn't a very intended part.
Plus, IIRC, it does only 1 damage. A bare minimum.

Scaling a very fodder tier character that we have showings of them being very inferior to the Chapter 1 party, to the post-Chapter-1-Fountain Party is a no.
Clover is sort of a miniboss, so Clover is slightly more plausible.

 

[Golden_Jevil]

@Imaginym Well, i know calculations. I am talking about stat increase, Kris, Susie and Ralsei just got some hp and a little ATK and DEF boost in chapter 2, that's all

 

[GyroNutz]

I don't think we should be using fodder like Hathy or Maus as a reliable metric for who scales to 9-B or 9-A, since the 9-B/9-A feats are done by main characters.

For the dojo, it mentions that Clover was holding back during her chapter 1 battle as it was her birthday. She could scale to 9-A I guess. The Jigsawry is part of the grazing challenge rather than an actual battle, and iirc their attacks do like 1 damage, so they definitively don't scale.

Spamton implying that Jevil is stronger than him might work, it's pretty vague but there's other stuff to link Jevil to Spamton. Though I'd note that Jevil states that Queen is stronger + faster than the chapter 1 heroes and hence Jevil himself, and the "clown around town" quote would only apply to base Spamton whereas Spamton NEO has "3x the firepower". Jevil was also way harder than any other chapter 2 boss so...

Thing is, chapter 1 characters are basically on the cusp of 9-A already (I assume so, they're 9-B+ but I can't find any 9-B+ calcs due to how atrocious the Deltarune layout is), and the 9-A feats aren't exactly far into 9-A either. It makes sense that chapter 2 heroes got that much stronger by levelling up.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I agree with the upgrade but disagree with the chapter 1 fun gang becoming 9A (Although I guess Jevil could get a 'possibly 9A' rating)

 

[Golden_Jevil]

I don't think we should be using fodder like Hathy or Maus as a reliable metric for who scales to 9-B or 9-A, since the 9-B/9-A feats are done by main characters.

For the dojo, it mentions that Clover was holding back during her chapter 1 battle as it was her birthday. She could scale to 9-A I guess. The Jigsawry is part of the grazing challenge rather than an actual battle, and iirc their attacks do like 1 damage, so they definitively don't scale.

Spamton implying that Jevil is stronger than him might work, it's pretty vague but there's other stuff to link Jevil to Spamton. Though I'd note that Jevil states that Queen is stronger + faster than the chapter 1 heroes and hence Jevil himself, and the "clown around town" quote would only apply to base Spamton whereas Spamton NEO has "3x the firepower". Jevil was also way harder than any other chapter 2 boss so...

Thing is, chapter 1 characters are basically on the cusp of 9-A already (I assume so, they're 9-B+ but I can't find any 9-B+ calcs due to how atrocious the Deltarune layout is), and the 9-A feats aren't exactly far into 9-A either. It makes sense that chapter 2 heroes got that much stronger by levelling up.

I don't think we should be using fodder like Hathy or Maus as a reliable metric for who scales to 9-B or 9-A, since the 9-B/9-A feats are done by main characters.

For the dojo, it mentions that Clover was holding back during her chapter 1 battle as it was her birthday. She could scale to 9-A I guess. The Jigsawry is part of the grazing challenge rather than an actual battle, and iirc their attacks do like 1 damage, so they definitively don't scale.

Spamton implying that Jevil is stronger than him might work, it's pretty vague but there's other stuff to link Jevil to Spamton. Though I'd note that Jevil states that Queen is stronger + faster than the chapter 1 heroes and hence Jevil himself, and the "clown around town" quote would only apply to base Spamton whereas Spamton NEO has "3x the firepower". Jevil was also way harder than any other chapter 2 boss so...

Thing is, chapter 1 characters are basically on the cusp of 9-A already (I assume so, they're 9-B+ but I can't find any 9-B+ calcs due to how atrocious the Deltarune layout is), and the 9-A feats aren't exactly far into 9-A either. It makes sense that chapter 2 heroesgot that much stronger by levelling up

I don't think we should be using fodder like Hathy or Maus as a reliable metric for who scales to 9-B or 9-A, since the 9-B/9-A feats are done by main characters.

For the dojo, it mentions that Clover was holding back during her chapter 1 battle as it was her birthday. She could scale to 9-A I guess. The Jigsawry is part of the grazing challenge rather than an actual battle, and iirc their attacks do like 1 damage, so they definitively don't scale.

Spamton implying that Jevil is stronger than him might work, it's pretty vague but there's other stuff to link Jevil to Spamton. Though I'd note that Jevil states that Queen is stronger + faster than the chapter 1 heroes and hence Jevil himself, and the "clown around town" quote would only apply to base Spamton whereas Spamton NEO has "3x the firepower". Jevil was also way harder than any other chapter 2 boss so...

Thing is, chapter 1 characters are basically on the cusp of 9-A already (I assume so, they're 9-B+ but I can't find any 9-B+ calcs due to how atrocious the Deltarune layout is), and the 9-A feats aren't exactly far into 9-A either. It makes sense that chapter 2 heroes got that much stronger by levelling up.

Ok maybe fodder characters like Hatty or Maus shouldn't be used. BUT, bosses and mini bosses can be, right? Since Jevil has almost same strengtg with Werewerewire. Jevil is a boss and Werewerewires are mini bosses in the game. There is also mouse and tasque manager, sooooo....



Also, even if deltarune chapter 1 won't be 9-A,than at least downgrade Spamton base form to 9-B+

 

[GyroNutz]

Ok maybe fodder characters like Hatty or Maus shouldn't be used. BUT, bosses and mini bosses can be, right? Since Jevil has almost same strengtg with Werewerewire. Jevil is a boss and Werewerewires are mini bosses in the game. There is also mouse and tasque manager, sooooo....


Also, even if deltarune chapter 1 won't be 9-A,than at least downgrade Spamton base form to 9-B+

Hmm, are the stats on the recruits screen the character's actual stats? Cause we used Undertale check stats because those weren't the actual coded values, but Deltarune may use actual stats (iirc Susie's check stats were the same as her actual stats).

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

I don't think we should be using fodder like Hathy or Maus as a reliable metric for who scales to 9-B or 9-A, since the 9-B/9-A feats are done by main characters.

For the dojo, it mentions that Clover was holding back during her chapter 1 battle as it was her birthday. She could scale to 9-A I guess. The Jigsawry is part of the grazing challenge rather than an actual battle, and iirc their attacks do like 1 damage, so they definitively don't scale.

Spamton implying that Jevil is stronger than him might work, it's pretty vague but there's other stuff to link Jevil to Spamton. Though I'd note that Jevil states that Queen is stronger + faster than the chapter 1 heroes and hence Jevil himself, and the "clown around town" quote would only apply to base Spamton whereas Spamton NEO has "3x the firepower". Jevil was also way harder than any other chapter 2 boss so...

Thing is, chapter 1 characters are basically on the cusp of 9-A already (I assume so, they're 9-B+ but I can't find any 9-B+ calcs due to how atrocious the Deltarune layout is), and the 9-A feats aren't exactly far into 9-A either. It makes sense that chapter 2 heroes got that much stronger by levelling up.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/spoilers-deltarune-chapter-2-upgrades-additions.124442/page-8#post-4285866

Better for you to comment about this there because this was were @GodlyCharmander and @Imaginym

disagreed with a 9-A Jevil

 

[Golden_Jevil]

I realized another thing, you can defeat chapter 2 characters wia using Devilsknife.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So with the appereance of Deltrune chapter 2, thanks to some of feats and calculations such as Noelle freezing enemies, or with this Berdly calculation. Chapter2 characters are buffed to small building level while chapter 1 characters are stayed as Wall Level+. Problem is, chapter 1 characters should scale to chapter 2 ones.

1. Stats:

Well, if you look stats of deltarune chapter 1 characters in chapter 2, you can see they have better, equal or at least close stats compared to chapter 2 characters. Such as Hatty has more defence than Maus (Look at here).

Bloxer, who has a comparable stat to Chapter 2 low tier, says:
"My power level is falling behind the others"
"All I can do is gasp and comment on the battle"

Stats are not usable for scaling if the narrative disagrees with it.

Crystal clear reference to DBZ, btw. Toby is based af.
This means Chapter 1 Enemies are obsolete.

2. Spamton's dialogue when you want to talk about him:

When you want to talk about spamton with him he says this.

In one of the dialogues, Spamton mentions one day he will suprass Jevil (pretty sure he meant Jevil when he said "I'll surpass that damned clown around town) which means this dialogue of Spamton actually implies he was weaker than Jevil. But I can't say it is so reliable. In the end Spamton is mentally broken and often says nothing but some random crap as seen in the game.

"Surpass" can mean half a trillion things. Not really a valid point.

3. Third challenge of Party Dojo:

In 3. challenge of party dojo challenge, fun gang fights with Clover, as chapter 2selves. Self explanatory.

Clover was holding back during Chapter 1 according to that.

As this is an RPG, Jigsawry, the weakest enemy in the game, will always be able to do damage to the player, so nah, they never fight in the narrative, as this is optional. They only do 1 damage, definitely don't scale.

I realized another thing, you can defeat chapter 2 characters wia using Devilsknife.

Weapons only add to the current character's strength, they don't scale individually.

Chapter 999 Kris: Has 300 Atk, Devilsknife adds 2 Atk, Kris one shots a Mountain Level enemy with it

MOUNTAIN LEVEL CHAPTER 1-

No, this doesn't quite work.

@Imaginym I know fun gang got some buff in chapter 2, but was it really high enough to move a tier?

This logic would make 9-A an outlier, and every subsequent chapter (assuming we progress as slow as we are know) will be forced to be 9-A regardless of feats. We're not about to restrict an entire verse because "1 level is too low"

Sorry, but feats and narrative take priority over stats.

Jevil also says the following if you defeat him with violence

• HA HA HA. WHAT FUN!!! YOU'RE FAST, FAST, STRONG, STRONG. BUT THERE ARE YET FASTER, YET STRONGER. THE HAND OF THE KNIGHT IS DRIFTING FORWARD. SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS... LIGHTNERS, CAN YOU STOP IT? UEE HEE HEE! EITHER WAY, A MISCHIEF-MISCHIEF, A CHAOS-CHAOS...! LIGHTNERS! FROM INSIDE YOUR LITTLE CELL!! TAKE ME AND DO YOUR STRONGEST---!

He says there's people faster and stronger than the ones who literally just defeated him, referring to Chapter 2, and the Queen.

Jevil should not scale to Chapter 2 at all.

Chapter 2 Clover is also MUCH stronger than before, having nearly twice as many stats, if we use that. (Battle statistics).

 

[FinePoint]

I feel like this is the third thread this has come up in, but I'll repeat myself anyways.
Spamton's statement that he might surpass "that clown around town" is a terrible reason for scaling.

1.) We don't know who "that clown around town" is. You can speculate it's Jevil, but there's a lot of comedic characters.

2.) We don't know what "surpass" means. Given Spamton's origins, it could very well also mean popularity, or even freedom.

3.) Spamton is bat-shit crazy. He constantly says things which make literally zero sense, even in context. His statements mean very little.

There's no need to scale them to each other at all. It's much safer not to.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

1.) We don't know who "that clown around town" is. You can speculate it's Jevil, but there's a lot of comedic characters, and Jevil isn't even a clown, he's a jester.

I agree with you, but Jevil is referred as a clown by Seam a few times...

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

I agree with you, but Jevil is referred as a clown by Seam a few times...

but he doesn't seem to possess any characteristics of a clown.

edit: I'm starting to think that the clown around town may refer to someone in chapter 3.

 

[GyroNutz]

@GodlyCharmander don't post 6 times in a row, most of that could have been edited into one comment + is repeating what I said above anyway. It clogs up the thread unnecessarily.

Aside from that, I recently found out that the Jevil page in the RECRUITS section is actually not in the game, it's unused. This means that scaling Jevil to chapter 2 mini-bosses wouldn't work. Now the only thing that can possibly be used to scale the Jevil is base Spamton's vague one-off comment about surpassing him, which wouldn't work for the reasons stated above.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

@GodlyCharmander don't post 6 times in a row, most of that could have been edited into one comment +

Fair enough (Although it's kind of trivial as the edited comment will be similar in size to the 6 separate ones).

is repeating what I said above anyway. It clogs up the thread unnecessarily.

I provided evidence for some of the points you brought up, and brought some of my own too, don't forget that.

 

[GyroNutz]

Fair enough (Although it's kind of trivial as the edited comment will be similar in size to the 6 separate ones).

It will load as one comment tho rather than 6 separate ones. Not really trivial. Still, thanks for providing evidence. I don't think there's anything else to cover here.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Just one question, Jevil wasn't traped in that cage because no darkner in chapter 1 could deafeat him and his chaotic self? If this is the case, this would include Clover without being holding back (I can be missremenbering trough)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Just one question, Jevil wasn't traped in that cage because no darkner in chapter 1 could deafeat him and his chaotic self? If this is the case, this would include Clover without being holding back (I can be missremenbering trough)

Seam did.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Seam did.

are you talking about who put jevil in the jail?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

are you talking about who put jevil in the jail?

Yes.
I don't think there's any mention that Jevil couldn't be defeated by anyone, but rather he was too chaotic and dangerous- I hope we never have to interact with Chapter 1 character again in our next adventures so we don't have to argue backscaling-

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Yes.
I don't think there's any mention that Jevil couldn't be defeated by anyone, but rather he was too chaotic and dangerous- I hope we never have to interact with Chapter 1 character again in our next adventures so we don't have to argue backscaling-

ok them the funny part is that mean that Kaard is comparable to chapter 2 enemies , in other words, he is stronger than the king

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

ok them the funny part is that mean that Kaard is comparable to chapter 2 enemies , in other words, he is stronger than the king

Yeah, and he's still afraid of the King despite being stronger than the king narrative wise.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

ok them the funny part is that mean that Kaard is comparable to chapter 2 enemies , in other words, he is stronger than the king

That'd be hilarious. But actually, he gets two shot by the Chapter 2 Party

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Yeah, and he's still afraid of the King despite being stronger than the king narrative wise.

well, the king is a intimidating man

That'd be hilarious. But actually, he gets two shot by the Chapter 2 Party

hum...

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

well, the king is a intimidating man

how much?

 

[JustANormalLemon]

how much?

at least as intimidating as Susie

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

at least as intimidating as Susie

I'd argue susie is far more intimidating than King but I see your point but Roulxs is only afraid of him and not anybody else, he wasn't even afraid of the swatchlings.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'd argue susie is far more intimidating than King but I see your point but Roulxs is only afraid of him and not anybody else, he wasn't even afraid of the swatchlings.

Of course, he has the right to be made Butler Supremeth

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

Of course, he has the right to be made Butler Supremeth

I didn't think anyone else watches Revtrosity around here.

 

[chosen]

states that Queen is stronger + faster than the chapter 1 heroes

Tbf Couldn't that be refering to giga quenn?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Tbf Couldn't that be refering to giga quenn?

Wild assumption, nope.

If he just said Queen (and actually implied to be Chapter 2 itself, "there are stronger and faster", plural), so it shouldn't be assumed to be any specific form.

 

[Therefir]

Rouxls was defeated by Swatchlings and can be defeated by the Chapter 2 heroes in a few hits, are we sure he should be 9-A? That makes him stronger than the King.

 

[Imaginym]

It could be specific individuals in Chapter 2. Regular Queen might be a candidate if Jevil ever knew her -She's implied to have had a history with King & knew about how he slept on his throne, seemingly.- since he was Court Jester, right?

 

[GyroNutz]

Tbf Couldn't that be refering to giga quenn?

That's just a machine that Queen pilots, Jevil wouldn't be referring to that.

 

[chosen]

Fair enough
Honestly the plural might come from likes of Spamton Neo since seems liek jevil knows about Spamton and vice versa but eh who knows

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Rouxls was defeated by Swatchlings and can be defeated by the Chapter 2 heroes in a few hits, are we sure he should be 9-A?

He scales with the lower 9-A feat by tanking very few hits from the protagonists (thus, being at least comparable to a very exhausted Berdly), which scales to 2.2x his AP and Durability.
This makes sense to me. In terms of Battle Mechanics, Rouxls is comparable to the Swatchlings in stats, and dwarf them in HP, and there's the plausible possibility Rouxls got jumped by more than one Swatchling.

That makes him stronger than the King.

Yes, it does indeed. I left a note in his profile addressing that.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

i can't see how spamton would even know about jevil. they're from different dark worlds with different fountains. i think this is just an example of spamton being crazy.

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

i can't see how spamton would even know about jevil. they're from different dark worlds with different fountains. i think this is just an example of spamton being crazy.

Is Jevil referred as a clown mostly?