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Tfw someone is talking like they're an anime character in an argument about how strong video game characters are like it's an important controversial debate.
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Deltarune Chapter 2 discussion!
- Thread starter ShockingPsychic
- Start date
GodlyCharmander
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Barely eloquent speech is already enough to fry that brain, ay?Tfw someone is talking like they're an anime character in an argument about how strong video game characters are like it's an important controversial debate.
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GodlyCharmander
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Lmfao, this dude made a whole meme after my reply, ******* SAD. Again, your process is simple, you get your ass handed to you by me here, don't make a CRT about your point because you are afraid, and incapable of countering a single argument, rinse and repeat.
Your bud is learning the process now, dumbass proposals get shut down before they even have a chance to get anywhere.
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This
really thinks he's special in some way.I made that meme in 5 minutes, I have never been debunked by you in an actually relevant discussion, I don't make CRT's because I have better things to do than spend hours every day on this website, hell, I haven't even been active on this site in over half a year. "rinse and repeat" I've had about 1 or 2 minor discussions with you. The only reason you argue with people you don't even know is because you have no self-esteem, have no social skills or friends, and you feel like need to validate yourself, your worth, and your intelligence by trying to feel superior to strangers over the most trivial things. Continue inflating your fragile ego, no one actually cares about what you have to say on here.
My "bud", who I've literally never sent a message or replied to before today, has only learned not to talk with you. I've never even tried or thought of making a Deltarune CRT, or any CRT in a while. Good bye. I'll now go back to ignoring you.
GodlyCharmander
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This
I made that meme in 5 minutes, I have never been debunked by you in an actually relevant discussion, I don't make CRT's because I have better things to do than spend hours every day on this website, hell, I haven't even been active on this site in over half a year. "rinse and repeat" I've had about 1 or 2 minor discussions with you. The only reason you argue with people you don't even know is because you have no self-esteem, have no social skills or friends, and you feel like need to validate yourself, your worth, and your intelligence by trying to feel superior to strangers over the most trivial things. Continue inflating your fragile ego, no one actually cares about what you have to say on here.
My "bud", who I've literally never sent a message or replied to before today, has only learned not to talk with you. I've never even tried or thought of making a Deltarune CRT, or any CRT in a while. Good bye. I'll now go back to ignoring you.
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Okay, so what proposal is being argued, on what basises?
Scaling Chapter 1 enemies to Jevil, despite that he's a Superboss for the chapter & it creates scaling loops & outliers?
Scaling Chapter 1 enemies to Chapter 2 Kris despite that you can't kill enemies because they explicitly run away after being hit hard enough? (With the exception of via Ice Magic, but IIRC, that's Durability Negation.) So it's not like they're being one-shot, & when they are, it's via something only Noelle has access to that doesn't scale to others.
& the status of Levels as a mechanic is dubious; You can't achieve Levels through grinding, you only get Levels after a Fountain's Power flows you through, so achieving Level 3 (Via reaching Chapter 2's Fountain.) seems to be a product of reaching a fountain & story progression. So I'm skeptical that you can just say "Scale to Level 2/3 Kris, GG".
Scaling Chapter 1 enemies to Jevil, despite that he's a Superboss for the chapter & it creates scaling loops & outliers?
Scaling Chapter 1 enemies to Chapter 2 Kris despite that you can't kill enemies because they explicitly run away after being hit hard enough? (With the exception of via Ice Magic, but IIRC, that's Durability Negation.) So it's not like they're being one-shot, & when they are, it's via something only Noelle has access to that doesn't scale to others.
& the status of Levels as a mechanic is dubious; You can't achieve Levels through grinding, you only get Levels after a Fountain's Power flows you through, so achieving Level 3 (Via reaching Chapter 2's Fountain.) seems to be a product of reaching a fountain & story progression. So I'm skeptical that you can just say "Scale to Level 2/3 Kris, GG".
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Spamton being stronger than Jevil is just something a lot of people for some reason can't wrap their heads around.
GodlyCharmander
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Levels aren't quite reactive, as you can quite literally grind to near-level 3 stats by being violent enough.
Either way, scaling the weakest Chapter 1 character to Chapter 2 Kris (who can beat the superboss, Jevil) is convoluted, and based on how the game treats battles instead of an actual solid reasoning.
GodlyCharmander
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"But Spamton was easier!!!"
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The bosses will only get stronger from here most likely, due to the levels Kris will gain. Even if no better feats get performed they'd still probably just scale into 9-A a considerable amount. It's almost guaranteed next boss will also be stronger than Spamton
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By "they", you mean Kris & the player character party, right?
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Yes. Plus everyone refers to Kris as they anyways
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Thank you for the clarification.
ShockingPsychic
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Made a match with the Heroes of Legend team profile.
Any other ideas for matches with the Heroes? Maybe Sans?
Any other ideas for matches with the Heroes? Maybe Sans?
GodlyCharmander
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I already did it, it died down.
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if deltarune ever gets the undertale treatment on the wiki then we'll be able to scale based off of in-game stats anyways, right?
GodlyCharmander
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Probably, yeah. But we'd need someone to take stats as canon in-universe like Chara did.
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both of the secret bosses are the only characters in the game to mention hp directly (Jevil saying "a simple number's game, whoever's hp hits 0 first loses" and Spamton saying "My esteemed customer I see that you are attempting to deplete my hp" in snowgrave's fight), which means we'll likely get a more significant statement for it in later chapters
meta characters sure are fun
meta characters sure are fun
GodlyCharmander
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True. At least HP is canon.
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Wait
hp being canon does mean that Jevil>Base Spamton tho
GodlyCharmander
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Stamina =/= Power Level
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yes, that's true
Jevil would just have 9-A dura and 9-B AP, which makes sense considering how he says his body is indestructible
GodlyCharmander
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Stamina =/= Durability either.
Spamton can simply withstand 9-A damage for less time than Jevil can withstand 9-B damage. They're not scalable at all.
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I don’t really see why hp=stamina
GodlyCharmander
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?
HP is how much damage you can take before you go out, that is literally stamina.
What are you suggesting, that HP is Durability? No, that's the defense stat, which has no influence on HP.
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defense just makes your hp go down slower, but if you have a shit ton of defense and only like 2 hp you are probably going to get one shot
GodlyCharmander
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Yes, because defense/durability hinders power output from enemy attacks, like it should do, HP is how much you can sustain damage before going down. It doesn't relate to how power the damage has behind it.
HP isn't dura or power, just stamina.
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all leveling up does it that it enhances stats like attack and health, hp is determined by how much damage you can take, so according to your logic becoming more powerful just means you can drain stamina faster, which has nothing to do with getting a higher AP? It's basically just cherry picking, we are gonna recognize leveling up as a stat amp because you drain hp faster, but then ignore the fact that it drains hp faster and just say it grants higher AP without recognizing that health is durability if damage is AP.
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(as far as I can tell there is also no direct statement that leveling up makes you stronger, it's just using in-game stats, so it's definitely just cherry picking)
GodlyCharmander
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Here we go with the backwards logic again.
Yes, leveling increases all stats, including stamina. That's what accelerated development is.
"How much damage you can take", yes, that's stamina.
"by your logic",
Nah. Becoming stronger means you deal more damage, and the person's stamina cannot compensate for it. Yes, you drain stamina faster if you deal more damage to someone... And? That's how stamina works.
For example, Luffy has stamina to tank thousands of attacks of the same level as him. But what do you think happens if a character 5x stronger than him hits him? He goes down much quicker because his durability is lower/opponent's AP is higher, and thus, his body withstand less hits.
I shouldn't have to explain how HP works.
Another example. Let's say a character has the stamina to fight even when their bones are broken.
By leveling up, and dealing more damage, that just means you're doing damage at a much higher rate, and getting to that point faster.
It has literally everything to do with AP, you're just terrible at basic reasoning.
GodlyCharmander
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Is this the part where I can say you're ignorant?
There doesn't need to be a statement saying "level ups means you're stronger" in a god damn RPG, we're not idiots, we have basic human comprehension, and interpretation. Yes, the level is higher, the damage is higher, the feats are better, they got stronger.
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Most of this is just you believing it's true just because you said it. I could just as easily say how much damage you can take is durability, and there's nothing to suggest that leveling increases stamina instead of durability. Yes, more damage drains stamina, but taking more damage without being defeated is also a product of durability. Power in deltarune is measured by how much damage you do, if you're trying to tell me that doing an attack of the same power against Jevil as against Spamton is just Jevil having more stamina, then that is literally just breaking the basic aspect of power scaling that a 9-B character shouldn't be able to take an attack of the same power that can damage a 9-A character. Your explanation about defense is bs too, given that doubling your defense has no difference to just doubling your hp. Having 9-A durability and infinite stamina does not mean you can tank a 3-A attack. You're not a genius, and I'm getting tired of you being a Brick Wall and calling me ignorant and idiotic every time you make a response. There is no reason why I should continue speaking to you if you're clearly not going to change your mind either way, because you're just someone who's incorrect who is incredibly convinced that they are 100% right no matter what, and that therefore there is always some bullshit logic you can use to counter, but you're just being completely willfully stupid here.
using damage as a metric for AP but not hp as a metric for durability, in spite of them being directly correlated. somehow I doubt either of the things you said. Stop cherry picking, I'm done talking to you now.
GodlyCharmander
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No, you cannot. I explained why you can't use HEALTH POINTS as durability.
You're literally just saying "Uuhh, no!! It's what I think", without any logical follow through.
Sustaining high amounts of damage is stamina.
Resisting powerful damage is durability.
(I swear if you misinterpret the second paragraph, I will flip out.)
Either learn the difference, or stop arguing.
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GodlyCharmander
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"Injury tolerance: How much actual damage a character can withstand and continue to act in spite of it. It is common in fiction to see characters continue to fight despite grievous injuries, such as broken or missing limbs, heavy blood loss, and organ damage. Extreme cases may resemble Type 2 Immortality, with characters temporarily pushing on through injuries that should have killed them. However, as long as an injury remains lethal, it is not actually Type 2 Immortality."
HP is stamina, verbatim.
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I know I said I wouldn’t speak again but I think the last post I made wasn’t explained properly, and I want to actually present my argument convincingly so…
More damage is equivalent to more AP
Doing 100 damage to an enemy means they lose 100 out of their 1000 hp
If the 1000 hp enemy is 9-C while the player is 8-C then regardless of their stamina they would be blown to pieces regardless of their ability to use stamina or not. If Stamina was hp then that means it would have a 1:1 correlation with AP, which would mean they could take any attack above their tier as long as it did enough damage
ShockingPsychic
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- Thread starter
- #600
I am going to attempt (and likely fail miserably at) calcing Kris jumping halfway across their bathroom at the end of Chapter 2. It's probably nothing more than slightly higher into 10-B, but a number is better than baseline lol
Any help on where to start would be appreciated.
Any help on where to start would be appreciated.
