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Deltarune Chapter 2 discussion!

GodlyCharmander said:
Gaster is barely a character, why would a fragmented man be recognized as a knight by Darkners? Makes no sense.

Chara being the knight has little evidence, but they'd be a good answer too.
Click to expand...
Deltarune's Gaster is likely not the same being as Undertale's Gaster. He was shattered across time and space in his timeline, but there are still other versions of him though, presumably ones that haven't undergone a similar accident. And in the opening sequence, the OST is called Another Him. Due to the evidence suggesting that the voice speaking to you at the time is Gaster or at least relevant to him in some manner, the fact that the OST says Another Him implies that it's another version of Gaster.
 
RinneItachi said:
Deltarune's Gaster is likely not the same being as Undertale's Gaster. He was shattered across time and space in his timeline, but there are still other versions of him though, presumably ones that haven't undergone a similar accident. And in the opening sequence, the OST is called Another Him. Due to the evidence suggesting that the voice speaking to you at the time is Gaster or at least relevant to him in some manner, the fact that the OST says Another Him implies that it's another version of Gaster.
Click to expand...
Hell even "DELTARUNE", The game itself, is highly hinted at that it was made by gaster or the dr version him. btw, I think the chruch will be important.
 
RinneItachi said:
Deltarune's Gaster is likely not the same being as Undertale's Gaster. He was shattered across time and space in his timeline, but there are still other versions of him though, presumably ones that haven't undergone a similar accident. And in the opening sequence, the OST is called Another Him. Due to the evidence suggesting that the voice speaking to you at the time is Gaster or at least relevant to him in some manner, the fact that the OST says Another Him implies that it's another version of Gaster.
Click to expand...
it's probably just called another him because gaster's theme is "him" so it's just another theme
but if Gaster was another version then it wouldn't explain how he still has the same kind of motivations and presence since he wouldn't have had the accident.
RinneItachi said:
Multiple. But the base assumption with the most evidence to go off of is Gaster as the most simplistic answer. Chara is a possibility but Gaster is much more likely.
Click to expand...
Gaster has no real evidence of him being the knight
 
ZillertheBucko said:
it's probably just called another him because gaster's theme is "him" so it's just another theme
but if Gaster was another version then it wouldn't explain how he still has the same kind of motivations and presence since he wouldn't have had the accident.

Gaster has no real evidence of him being the knight
Click to expand...
I think it being another version of Gaster makes more sense, and that the Undertale Gaster will stay as is he is, especially because Deltarune is almost definitely an alternate timeline in the same multiverse. There'd still be other versions of Gaster.
We don't know Undertale Gaster's motivation too well, either, albeit he probably wants to reform himself. Honestly, my current theory is that the Mystery Man is actually Deltarune's Gaster invading from another timeline, and when he realizes that he's been noticed, he immediately returns to the Deltarune timeline. Not much evidence to suggest it, but it still sounds cool.

Gaster has fair bit of evidence at least suggesting he's ;potentially the Knight, albeit not too much for that specific theory. I think he could very well be an entirely separate entity, but Gaster is the only character that has any real implications, aside from Kris technically, but Kris is very likely not the original Knight. I'm a bit rusty on this topic but I'll try to recall what I can.

In Deltarune, a man behind a tree gives you an egg. Keep in mind, that man is constantly referred to by terms like "He" and "Him", which are obviously normal pronouns, but are used in a manner most consistent with how they are used for Gaster. When the word egg is translated to wing-dings in all uppercase letters (which is how Gaster speaks in Entry Number 17), the symbols shown can represent the same movements a Knight piece can make in Chess. When Seam is talking about the being that Jevil met, which iirc is implied or even stated to have been the Knight, in the same sequence of dialogue, he says the words "darker, yet darker", which is, of course, linked to Gaster pretty tightly. It is absolutely not a coincidence. Toby is a genius at making these connections, as we've seen in the past, he wouldn't overlook such an obvious connection to Gaster, a character talked about more than almost any other character in Toby's community. While it is fully possible that the being who "helped" Spamton may not be the same as the being that met Jevil, it'd make sense if it was, as they're both apart of the secret bosses group that will continue expanding going forward. Spamton also makes a reference to the words "dark" and "darker" in a manner that also seems reminiscent of Entry Number 17, which, again, we know was made by Gaster. And then there's the whole thing about "garbage noise" which I'm sure you're already aware of. Something few people mention is that the number of Spamton's old friends located near his shop is 6 in specific, a number heavily linked with Gaster, too.

The evidence we have, while very lacking for any definitive conclusions, definitely points to Gaster being the Knight, or the original one, rather, more than any other character I can think of. But personally speaking, my actual belief is that, while Gaster will 100% be relevant in Deltarune, Gaster being the Knight is just a big subversion Toby is planning.
 
Has Undyne's car lifting feat been calced? It's not anywhere on the site. Think it's the most impressive lifting strength feat in the game. Only bad thing is, the only character who'd scale to it is Undyne. But I think it's still worth having a calc of, it could be useful in the future. She doesn't just lift a car, she straight up deadlifts it right over her head while smiling, talking, and laughing. Even if we only applied the time it takes for her dialogue to naturally go by for the feat as a time-span, she'd have done around 20 reps with it. And we get a pretty good shot of the car and Undyne herself, too.
 
RinneItachi said:
Has Undyne's car lifting feat been calced? It's not anywhere on the site. Think it's the most impressive lifting strength feat in the game. Only bad thing is, the only character who'd scale to it is Undyne. But I think it's still worth having a calc of, it could be useful in the future. She doesn't just lift a car, she straight up deadlifts it right over her head while smiling, talking, and laughing. Even if we only applied the time it takes for her dialogue to naturally go by for the feat as a time-span, she'd have done around 20 reps with it. And we get a pretty good shot of the car and Undyne herself, too.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure than the dark world versions of everyone will probally scale to that, because it would be weird for a ¨¨normal¨¨ ligthner to have better LS than pratically 99% of the verse
 
Livinmeme said:
Pretty sure than the dark world versions of everyone will probally scale to that, because it would be weird for a ¨¨normal¨¨ ligthner to have better LS than pratically 99% of the verse
Click to expand...
In the future then yeah probably, but right now, even the Dark World versions of the Lightners don't have proper scaling to Undyne's feat. For all we know she could overpower the main 3 simultaneously, or even Ralsei has better lifting strength by himself, there's simply no scaling at all between them. The only character who an argument could perhaps be made for is Asgore. He was formerly the police chief, meaning he'd have had a position above Undyne. In normal circumstances, that doesn't actually constitute who'd be stronger of course, I only bring it up because it's supposed to be a parallel to Undertale, where Asgore was far stronger than Undyne, as Undyne's leader and trainer. But even then, that reasoning just isn't enough to say Asgore concretely or even likely scales.
 
As is, IIRC, Light Worlders are assumed to be normal unless shown otherwise, because we don't know of much to indicate they're not like normal people in their capabilities, plus Toby Fox's statements that imply Deltarune & Undertale's world/people aren't necessarily the same.

Nonetheless, Dark World Kris is scaled to like, 3,500 kg into Class 5 for pulling some prison chains off of a wall.
A typical car is like, 1,000 to 2,000 kg, so Chapter 1 Dark World Kris is already at like, 2 cars of LS, more or less.
Although, I don't remember how many cars exactly officer Undyne was benchpressing at once, but maybe the speed at which she lifts & lowers them being accounted for would produce a higher LS yield. Although, unsure if that's a valid approach or not.

Anyway, Undyne's car lift isn't the most impressive LS feat, it's just 1 of the few that's on-screen.
Whoever carried Berdly's statue easily outlifted that.
The giant toilet that blocks the route from city to castle may also be a bigger lift, if it was moved, but I'm unsure if it's the same toilet as the one found in the castle. I assume not, though?
& as I myself calculated, Giga Queen has Class M Lifting Strength, if her "crush you into 8 bits" statement is to be believed: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Imaginym/Giga_Queen_Crushing_into_8_Bits
 
RinneItachi said:
I think it being another version of Gaster makes more sense, and that the Undertale Gaster will stay as is he is, especially because Deltarune is almost definitely an alternate timeline in the same multiverse. There'd still be other versions of Gaster.
We don't know Undertale Gaster's motivation too well, either, albeit he probably wants to reform himself. Honestly, my current theory is that the Mystery Man is actually Deltarune's Gaster invading from another timeline, and when he realizes that he's been noticed, he immediately returns to the Deltarune timeline. Not much evidence to suggest it, but it still sounds cool.

Gaster has fair bit of evidence at least suggesting he's ;potentially the Knight, albeit not too much for that specific theory. I think he could very well be an entirely separate entity, but Gaster is the only character that has any real implications, aside from Kris technically, but Kris is very likely not the original Knight. I'm a bit rusty on this topic but I'll try to recall what I can.

In Deltarune, a man behind a tree gives you an egg. Keep in mind, that man is constantly referred to by terms like "He" and "Him", which are obviously normal pronouns, but are used in a manner most consistent with how they are used for Gaster. When the word egg is translated to wing-dings in all uppercase letters (which is how Gaster speaks in Entry Number 17), the symbols shown can represent the same movements a Knight piece can make in Chess. When Seam is talking about the being that Jevil met, which iirc is implied or even stated to have been the Knight, in the same sequence of dialogue, he says the words "darker, yet darker", which is, of course, linked to Gaster pretty tightly. It is absolutely not a coincidence. Toby is a genius at making these connections, as we've seen in the past, he wouldn't overlook such an obvious connection to Gaster, a character talked about more than almost any other character in Toby's community. While it is fully possible that the being who "helped" Spamton may not be the same as the being that met Jevil, it'd make sense if it was, as they're both apart of the secret bosses group that will continue expanding going forward. Spamton also makes a reference to the words "dark" and "darker" in a manner that also seems reminiscent of Entry Number 17, which, again, we know was made by Gaster. And then there's the whole thing about "garbage noise" which I'm sure you're already aware of. Something few people mention is that the number of Spamton's old friends located near his shop is 6 in specific, a number heavily linked with Gaster, too.

The evidence we have, while very lacking for any definitive conclusions, definitely points to Gaster being the Knight, or the original one, rather, more than any other character I can think of. But personally speaking, my actual belief is that, while Gaster will 100% be relevant in Deltarune, Gaster being the Knight is just a big subversion Toby is planning.
Click to expand...
The knight is in a completely different dialogue than the Jevil stuff, and the same phrasing is not used for them either. One is the strange knight and is highlighted as red text, while the other is just the strange man and is not highlighted. Judging by the vessel creation, Gaster is actually much more likely to be an ally of the player than anything. Gaster is never actually implied to be the knight
 
All i know is that gaster might be important in deltarune as there a constant reminders of him. (And i think he is the one that somewhat created deltarune)
 
quick thing, since spamton does basically say that he's not surpassed jevil yet, wouldn't it be pretty easy to justify a "likely 9-A" for Jevil by scaling above spamton
 
ZillertheBucko said:
quick thing, since spamton does basically say that he's not surpassed jevil yet, wouldn't it be pretty easy to justify a "likely 9-A" for Jevil by scaling above spamton
Click to expand...
Oh my g-

I swear if see another CRT asking for Jevil to upgraded based on this line I will ask for a verse rule
 
ZillertheBucko said:
Ok, then how about the fact that Jevil’s weapons and armor can be used against Spamton?
Click to expand...
That was said these 5 times as well, and dismissed as "literally any chapter 1 weapon can be used against any character, and weapons only add to a character power pool, it doesn't define it"
 
ZillertheBucko said:
I'm saying that they still have the durability to not die from it
Click to expand...
You're not allowed to kill enemies, PERIOD. That's just the game.
Why would Kris and co try to kill people in a training dojo? You make no sense, we're not upgrading Chapter 1, 9-B is set in stone until a new feat comes up
 
The only potential feat left to talk about in Chapter 1 that I can think of are Susie and Kris' fall (which is impossible to calc), and the KE of the giant Devil's Knife in final chaos.

Everyone should just be Low 2-C for harming the SOUL/Player anyway smh my head.
 
ShockingPsychic said:
The only potential feat left to talk about in Chapter 1 that I can think of are Susie and Kris' fall (which is impossible to calc), and the KE of the giant Devil's Knife in final chaos.

Everyone should just be Low 2-C for harming the SOUL/Player anyway smh my head.
Click to expand...
The Giant Devil's knife KE is subpar, and the KE will also yield pathetic results.
but we do know how to calc it, we just won't
 
It's a concerning disparity that what should be 1 of Jevil's strongest attacks would have 1 of the weakest yields as a feat.
 
Imaginym said:
It's a concerning disparity that what should be 1 of Jevil's strongest attacks would have 1 of the weakest yields as a feat.
Click to expand...
We're assuming the force comes from KE instead of fictional magic.

So KE likely doesn't represent the attack's full power, it's just a basis ("it can't be lower than that")
 
GodlyCharmander said:
You're not allowed to kill enemies, PERIOD. That's just the game.
Why would Kris and co try to kill people in a training dojo? You make no sense, we're not upgrading Chapter 1, 9-B is set in stone until a new feat comes up
Click to expand...
well, it'd technically be the player first of all, not Kris
but if you're going with it being game mechanics then it's hypocritical, since you're already recognizing the ch2 level up as a stat amp
the fact still remains that you are unable to kill any ch1 enemies, despite the 9-A buff
 
ZillertheBucko said:
well, it'd technically be the player first of all, not Kris
but if you're going with it being game mechanics then it's hypocritical, since you're already recognizing the ch2 level up as a stat amp
the fact still remains that you are unable to kill any ch1 enemies, despite the 9-A buff
Click to expand...
"Using X game mechanics is hypocritical because you used Y game mechanic"

Both mechanics are unrelated to each other. You don't make a glimpse of sense, you cannot kill, you are incapable of killing ANYTHING in both chapters. (You need NOELLE to even make a kill) That's how the game works.

We're not scaling Ch 1 Characters to Ch 2 Kris when they get one shot by them. This is idiotic.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
"Using X game mechanics is hypocritical because you used Y game mechanic"

Both mechanics are unrelated to each other. You don't make a glimpse of sense, you cannot kill, you are incapable of killing ANYTHING in both chapters. (You need NOELLE to even make a kill) That's how the game works.

We're not scaling Ch 1 Characters to Ch 2 Kris when they get one shot by them. This is idiotic.
Click to expand...
In fact, if we consider Game Mechanics canon like we do for level ups, then we have even more of a reason to NOT scale them, because the player is incapable of killing because of the mechanics, which is why we manipulate Noelle into doing it to bypass the mechanics.

So either way, "not dying" is not an argument.
 
The only reason Noelle can kill is because she uses ice, which doesn’t let them run away like they usually do, it has nothing to do with Noelle herself. The fact that you can’t kill anything normally isn’t really a counter argument, it’s literally the basis for what I’m saying. One shotting isn’t even that important when even doing that doesn’t incapacitate enemies, they just run away. Game mechanics wise, even with the stat increase the player party still wouldn’t be capable of one shotting Jevil going by his hp,

And don’t call me an idiot, you’re starting to get annoying
 
ZillertheBucko said:
The fact that you can’t kill anything normally isn’t really a counter argument, it’s literally the basis for what I’m saying.
Click to expand...
It is. You can't kill shit because the game doesn't allow you to, regardless if you deplet their HP with 1 ATK, or 10000 ATK.

Game Mechanics stop you from killing enemies, end of story.
ZillertheBucko said:
And don’t call me an idiot, you’re starting to get annoying
Click to expand...
I called your logic idiotic, not you. Take your own ego out of your arguments and you might be a better debater.

Also, the annoying one is the guy trying to scale characters to people who can one shot them. We are not scaling Chapter 1 to Chapter 2, and that's final. Such an annoying entitled argument, ffs.
 
I don’t understand how you can personify a normal argument as entitled, but I can see that talking to you is completely pointless if you’re just gonna be a brick wall like this
I’m done
 
ZillertheBucko said:
I don’t understand how you can personify a normal argument as entitled, but I can see that talking to you is completely pointless if you’re just gonna be a brick wall like this
I’m done
Click to expand...
I already found out earlier in this thread that talking to him isn't going to go anywhere productive.

It's best to just ignore people like that online.
 
Ignore me all you want. Whatever.
But if you dare bring this to an actual CRT with absolutely asinine arguments, and faulty logic, you're going to be debunked again, and, spoiler, this ignoring bs isn't valid in a CRT.

"Oh well, even though the game purposely doesn't let you kill things, let me use the fact you can't kill things as a scaling method." is a terrible, self contradictory argument that doesn't address the mechanic at all, instead, you simply ignore it.

You want to be ******* productive by insisting in an argument while bypassing the grieving faults in it? Don't make me LAUGH.

Good luck with your next CRTs, this isn't going to get through with these arguments.
 
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