- 2,688
- 574
bit off topic, but why did Bill lose Spatial Manipulation? I can't find it anywhere on his profile, even though he should have it.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Debunking Bill Cipher's 2-A tier + Axolotl downgrade
- Thread starter ShadowWarrior1999
- Start date
- Status
- 3,651
- 264
It's like saying Meruem is a threat to humankind and the world, so he should be 5B.
- 3,651
- 264
Debunked already, but even if you want to reapply it, it's not a multiversal Level, just a reminder. It's basically his way of transportation, if anything.Unoriginal Memes said:
- 15,332
- 7,563
Don't do this.Dragopentling said:
The world isn't infinite. If it were, then this character who is a threat to the world would be High 3-A instead of 5-B.
- 3,651
- 264
I'm not using the Straw Man. I meant to say that the situation is still kinda similar -_-
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 8,548
- 7,205
Could we all relax a bit? Maybe some yoga to ease the nerves?
In all seriousness, peeps, we need to calm down before people get fired up.
In all seriousness, peeps, we need to calm down before people get fired up.
- 14,195
- 2,574
I don't think we connect "threating X space" with any tier value, regardless of size.
- 3,687
- 3,458
seems fine to me
- 10,116
- 11,488
Kep has convinced me, I agree with full on 2-A.
- 2,688
- 574
I literally said "off topic", so it has nothing to do with range and crap. Also, he stated and demonstrated that he can in fact manipulate space.
- 15,332
- 7,563
I am nearly 100% sure that we do.SomebodyData said:
- 14,195
- 2,574
As far as I'm aware, no, and I've had my handful of these kinda statements. Unless of course, there is more context in that statement then is being let on here.
- 12,524
- 3,492
- 15,332
- 7,563
As I said, we do, and I have seen a lot of examples. Anyone who is a threat to a galaxy, universe, etc. is rated at the bare minimum tier 4 in order to do it overtime. This is something we apply across the whole wiki. On an infinite scale, anyone who threatens an infinite X must be infinite. Literally no other options here. It's the exact same reason shaking a universe is 4-A, but shaking an infinite universe is rated as High 3-A.
Assuming that a Low 2-C can be a significant threat to a 2-A multiverse without rating him as 2-A is illogical at best. I will stand by this.
Assuming that a Low 2-C can be a significant threat to a 2-A multiverse without rating him as 2-A is illogical at best. I will stand by this.
- 6,014
- 2,122
Bad Exemple, Altair take an infinite amount of time to create an infinite Multiverse.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Honestly, i have no opinion and i don't want to involve myself in this thread, i just wanted to correct some things.
- 9,527
- 1,811
I have actually never heard of a character getting a rating via being stated to be a threat
I'll have to keep that in mind to upgrade some characters now
- 12,524
- 3,492
- Thread starter
- #338
A better example would be Altair not being 2-A even though she can create an infinite amount of universes.
Bad Exemple, Altair take an infinite amount of time to create an infinite Multiverse.
Honestly, i have no opinion and i don't want to involve myself in this thread, i just wanted to correct some things.
And in Bill's case, he's described as being a general threat to the multiverse, not that he's literally going to destroy every single universe. Even if he eventually would, Bill is immortal so he could take all the infinite time he needs to do it, plus as mentioned above, Bill's goal is just to cause havoc in general by using his reality warping schenanigans.
Bad Exemple, Altair take an infinite amount of time to create an infinite Multiverse.
Honestly, i have no opinion and i don't want to involve myself in this thread, i just wanted to correct some things.
And in Bill's case, he's described as being a general threat to the multiverse, not that he's literally going to destroy every single universe. Even if he eventually would, Bill is immortal so he could take all the infinite time he needs to do it, plus as mentioned above, Bill's goal is just to cause havoc in general by using his reality warping schenanigans.
- 3,651
- 264
Apparently it's now allowed that easily, so yea. OFF TOPIC for a bit, though, I guess that means there's a very good opening for the Poke Gods to be 2A, then xDDPaul Frank said:
- 26,160
- 3,653
Being a threat to something doesn't equate to destroying it, soecially since Ford found weirdmageddon to be the end of the world.
The whole rip thing came because by making a rip in one dimension (which in the context obviously refers to the universe) would have destroyed the whole fabric of reality. The fabric of reality os differentiated from "this dimension", which was why I would assume that it's a chain reaction. What with a single dimension fusing with the nightmare realm causing the destruction of infinite ones.
But before that, of course, comes the fact that at the point where bill his statements and his showings contradict to the point where they can't coexist at all, no matter how much you want to handwave the latter away as PIS.
TL;DR: As I said multiple times, there is no correct answer.
The whole rip thing came because by making a rip in one dimension (which in the context obviously refers to the universe) would have destroyed the whole fabric of reality. The fabric of reality os differentiated from "this dimension", which was why I would assume that it's a chain reaction. What with a single dimension fusing with the nightmare realm causing the destruction of infinite ones.
But before that, of course, comes the fact that at the point where bill his statements and his showings contradict to the point where they can't coexist at all, no matter how much you want to handwave the latter away as PIS.
TL;DR: As I said multiple times, there is no correct answer.
- 14,195
- 2,574
Hold on Kep, if you have examples, bring them out. We have not done this, again without much more context.
Because for example, all of Dragon Ball Z and Super's main villains are at one point or another, called threats to the universe, none of which are rated equally.
Dark Samus is a threat to the infinite Metroid universe, Ridley (as a 6-C) is considered a threat to the galaxy as a whole.
I'll repeat this again, either there is far more context to this statement than what is being shown, or this threat = ap belief is inherently contradicted by the wiki.
Because for example, all of Dragon Ball Z and Super's main villains are at one point or another, called threats to the universe, none of which are rated equally.
Dark Samus is a threat to the infinite Metroid universe, Ridley (as a 6-C) is considered a threat to the galaxy as a whole.
I'll repeat this again, either there is far more context to this statement than what is being shown, or this threat = ap belief is inherently contradicted by the wiki.
- 9,527
- 1,811
- 9,527
- 1,811
What did Oracle view bill as a threat to?
This whole thread came about because threat to the multiverse doesn't mean 2-A without supporting feats
This whole thread came about because threat to the multiverse doesn't mean 2-A without supporting feats
- 14,195
- 2,574
^ Basically what Paul said
- 12,524
- 3,492
- Thread starter
- #346
@Risci This is why I say the rip is only Low 2-C. You can see as Time Baby mentions the "fabric of existence", the image he projects shows a quasar with dots in the background, which would make sense for them to be distant galaxies. Going by this, it means fabric of existence = the universe.
- 15,332
- 7,563
> Being a threat to something doesn't equate to destroying it, soecially since Ford found weirdmageddon to be the end of the world.
Whatever eventual multiverse destroyer Bill is, the mere fact that he's considered a significant threat to the whole of said 2-A multiverse requires him to be 2-A in the context of the series.
> The whole rip thing came because by making a rip in one dimension (which in the context obviously refers to the universe) would have destroyed the whole fabric of reality. The fabric of reality os differentiated from "this dimension", which was why I would assume that it's a chain reaction. What with a single dimension fusing with the nightmare realm causing the destruction of infinite ones.
I doubt that making a rip in the fabric of one universe would allow for destroying the whole multiverse, considering those are alternate space-times and wouldn't share one fabric. That might be a way of destroying one universe, but clearly not all of them.
> But before that, of course, comes the fact that at the point where bill his statements and his showings contradict to the point where they can't coexist at all, no matter how much you want to handwave the latter away as PIS.
Great. You can go ahead and attempt to downgrade him to tier 5 or tier 4, considering his "showings" in the literal sense don't get past such a number, and we only rate him tier 2 via statements of what his FP would yield.
Whatever eventual multiverse destroyer Bill is, the mere fact that he's considered a significant threat to the whole of said 2-A multiverse requires him to be 2-A in the context of the series.
> The whole rip thing came because by making a rip in one dimension (which in the context obviously refers to the universe) would have destroyed the whole fabric of reality. The fabric of reality os differentiated from "this dimension", which was why I would assume that it's a chain reaction. What with a single dimension fusing with the nightmare realm causing the destruction of infinite ones.
I doubt that making a rip in the fabric of one universe would allow for destroying the whole multiverse, considering those are alternate space-times and wouldn't share one fabric. That might be a way of destroying one universe, but clearly not all of them.
> But before that, of course, comes the fact that at the point where bill his statements and his showings contradict to the point where they can't coexist at all, no matter how much you want to handwave the latter away as PIS.
Great. You can go ahead and attempt to downgrade him to tier 5 or tier 4, considering his "showings" in the literal sense don't get past such a number, and we only rate him tier 2 via statements of what his FP would yield.
- 26,160
- 3,653
That is contradicted by the fact that time baby differentiates "this dimension" and "fabric of existence.
Bill isn't making a rip into the spatial kind of dimension, which is what GF apparently has, so the universe is what we are left with (don't they refer to unvirses with "#24 (random number) dimension" too?)
Bill isn't making a rip into the spatial kind of dimension, which is what GF apparently has, so the universe is what we are left with (don't they refer to unvirses with "#24 (random number) dimension" too?)
- 15,332
- 7,563
> Because for example, all of Dragon Ball Z and Super's main villains are at one point or another, called threats to the universe, none of which are rated equally.
The fact that they receive a rating is all that matters. On an infinite scale, it really doesn't matter whatever you do, if you do it on an infinite scale, then by default, you need to be infinite X. In Bill's case, since he threatens to destroy our dimension, threatening the whole multiverse on a similar manner makes his current "possibly 2-A" a necessity.
Shaking the universe is 4-A. Shaking an infinite universe is High 3-A, because doing anything on an infinite scale by default requires that rating (unless we tr to dwelve into semantics)
> Dark Samus is a threat to the infinite Metroid universe, Ridley (as a 6-C) is considered a threat to the galaxy as a whole.
That doesn't tell me the context behind those ratings.
The fact that they receive a rating is all that matters. On an infinite scale, it really doesn't matter whatever you do, if you do it on an infinite scale, then by default, you need to be infinite X. In Bill's case, since he threatens to destroy our dimension, threatening the whole multiverse on a similar manner makes his current "possibly 2-A" a necessity.
Shaking the universe is 4-A. Shaking an infinite universe is High 3-A, because doing anything on an infinite scale by default requires that rating (unless we tr to dwelve into semantics)
> Dark Samus is a threat to the infinite Metroid universe, Ridley (as a 6-C) is considered a threat to the galaxy as a whole.
That doesn't tell me the context behind those ratings.
- 12,524
- 3,492
- Thread starter
- #350
He doesn't differentiate it. He is talking about the universe's space-time continuum which contains everything that exists within it.
- 15,332
- 7,563
Scans?
- 26,160
- 3,653
Multiverse destroyer is an assumption tough. There is no reason to assume he would destroy it. Plus, he was constantly increasing in power with the fusion of the world with the nightmare realm, so him posing a thread could've very well been later on.
Cal seemed to adamantly disagree with that, but the fabric thing is the only realm statement that implies destruction.
That is dumb right there, no offense. I never even implied that, I said there is no answer, period. Trying to rate him is like trying to rate a toon force character like bugs. Yeah, we do it, but he has the excuse of being a semi-composite profile, taking all his contradicting feats and abilities he's ever shown.
Cal seemed to adamantly disagree with that, but the fabric thing is the only realm statement that implies destruction.
That is dumb right there, no offense. I never even implied that, I said there is no answer, period. Trying to rate him is like trying to rate a toon force character like bugs. Yeah, we do it, but he has the excuse of being a semi-composite profile, taking all his contradicting feats and abilities he's ever shown.
- 26,160
- 3,653
- 12,524
- 3,492
- Thread starter
- #354
Oh yeah in Gravity Falls dimensions generally refers to universes. Bill comes from a universe where everything is 2D.
- 26,160
- 3,653
Also, apparenntly GF is stated to be part of Rick and Morty plain out instead of just easter eggs.
- 15,332
- 7,563
> Multiverse destroyer is an assumption tough. There is no reason to assume he would destroy it.
No reason when the whole connected paragraph is about how his dimension was safe from Bill, but not the wider multiverse? Heck, the former paragraph narrated a dimension ceasing to exist, so the context being the same in both paragraphs is kind of basic Occam's Razor. Not to mention the other statement, which is literally "to save the multiverse"
Going by this logic, we might as well start rating anyone who is just stated to be able to "destroy the universe" not 3-A either, considering you can vaguely interpret "destroy" as meaning he is going to lifewipe the universe.
> Cal seemed to adamantly disagree with that, but the fabric thing is the only realm statement that implies destruction.
And it's exactly what he is 2-A with, as per his profile.
> That is dumb right there, no offense. I never even implied that
Whether you did or not is irrelevant. Your logic invariably leads to something like this.
> I said there is no answer, period. Trying to rate him is like trying to rate a toon force character like bugs. Yeah, we do it, but he has the excuse of being a semi-composite profile, taking all his contradicting feats and abilities he's ever shown.
This is a non-argument at best. "He is a contradictory character thus shouldn't be rated at all."
No reason when the whole connected paragraph is about how his dimension was safe from Bill, but not the wider multiverse? Heck, the former paragraph narrated a dimension ceasing to exist, so the context being the same in both paragraphs is kind of basic Occam's Razor. Not to mention the other statement, which is literally "to save the multiverse"
Going by this logic, we might as well start rating anyone who is just stated to be able to "destroy the universe" not 3-A either, considering you can vaguely interpret "destroy" as meaning he is going to lifewipe the universe.
> Cal seemed to adamantly disagree with that, but the fabric thing is the only realm statement that implies destruction.
And it's exactly what he is 2-A with, as per his profile.
> That is dumb right there, no offense. I never even implied that
Whether you did or not is irrelevant. Your logic invariably leads to something like this.
> I said there is no answer, period. Trying to rate him is like trying to rate a toon force character like bugs. Yeah, we do it, but he has the excuse of being a semi-composite profile, taking all his contradicting feats and abilities he's ever shown.
This is a non-argument at best. "He is a contradictory character thus shouldn't be rated at all."
- 12,524
- 3,492
- Thread starter
- #357
Oh yeah that's obvious. They share the same multiverse.Ricsi-viragosi said:
- 15,332
- 7,563
An example of what I'm talking about is the Wither Storm, which is High 3-A because of the narrator stating it's a threat to the Minecraft world itself. Despite it taking an undetermined amount of time (a literal living supercomputer only mentioned "towns and mountains" being consumed by it), it is by default High 3-A because of... infinity.
- 26,160
- 3,653
Not really, no. Not only could I argue that the wider multiverse there refers to how compared to his singular dimension the rest of reality is at Bill's mercy (meaning that he doesn't have to destroy it all, much like how "x being a danger to the wider x country" can very well be used for a criminal on the loose), but him planning to destroy everything makes no real sense eith his character. He destroyed his own world, but it was also said that he felt bad about it, so I'd wager that his attempt at libarating it got out of hand.
Except it's done by making a tear in a single universe. Which is not something that should just scale to his normal AP.
No, it doesn't. Because my logic is that he is an inherently flawed character as far as co sistency goes, and trying to quantify something that the creators themselves were indecisive about is just not going to work.
No, it isn't. My argument is that he doesn't just sometimes contradict himself, but that not one of his actions make sense, and that most of his abilities were piled ontu him as an aftertought by the authors bevause why not. The idea of a character that genuinly has no precise powerlevel because the authors didn't care to make on for it is far from illogical or impossible.
And the wither storm actually affected all of the world. Tough, wasn't there a birder to the world after which the rules just break down in minecraft story mode?
Except it's done by making a tear in a single universe. Which is not something that should just scale to his normal AP.
No, it doesn't. Because my logic is that he is an inherently flawed character as far as co sistency goes, and trying to quantify something that the creators themselves were indecisive about is just not going to work.
No, it isn't. My argument is that he doesn't just sometimes contradict himself, but that not one of his actions make sense, and that most of his abilities were piled ontu him as an aftertought by the authors bevause why not. The idea of a character that genuinly has no precise powerlevel because the authors didn't care to make on for it is far from illogical or impossible.
And the wither storm actually affected all of the world. Tough, wasn't there a birder to the world after which the rules just break down in minecraft story mode?
- Status
Similar threads
