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Death Stranding Downgrade

M3X_2.0

M3X_2.0

VS Battles
Retired
11,903
11,513
This is thread is about Sam's speed and I will explain he obviously isn't Supersonic in travel speed. It's about the calc below

vsbattles.fandom.com

Death Stranding: Antimatter Annihilation and a Race Against Time

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

First of all, no, the map of the game isn't the size of in real life United States. It's literally impossible to represent something that big in a video game. We don't have technology to do that, and the only game that could actually reprensent that is Flying Simulator. Anyway, when playing the game, more or less at the end, you should travel the entire map, and it's actually something between 12 to 20km. Sam being Supersonic simply doesn't work, it's against the game itself as your goal is to cross huge distances, using your foot or with vehicles like motorcycle.
 
Actually, it is totally possible to do that in a videogame, even a NDS can do it with some tricks, the problem is actually doing a large amount of notable things within such a large place, which generally only happens on very broad games, but that's besides the point as it could be argued to be a game mechanic.

Anyways, the speed can be argued to be a bit dubious out of how it easily doesn't correlate that well to a game, but it's still reasonable as it's mentioned on the blog out of some other feat at that level.

Overall, I don't think any change is needed.
 
No, it's far from reasonable. Sam can't be Supersonic, even subsonic is a mistake. He is not running at those speeds, he even use vehicles to deliver some things, as we see in the first cutscene of the game. And if you are talking about the bullets feat, he can't dodge them in cutscenes too.
 
  1. We have the technology to downscale the map to represent the US, which is what the game did since the map of the world you travel through is the map of the US, and the story is about traveling throughout the US instead of traveling 10 km. For instance, the small lake in front of Heartman's lab is literally stated to be the remnant of a city, so things are not drawn up to scale.
  2. The devs said that the map we see in-game is a downscaled map of the US.
Yoshiike: Yes, we scaled the map keeping many things in consideration during level design! We looked at real US maps and thought about how certain areas would be affected if there were voidouts, which led to the creation of the map you see now. Furthermore, we organized the setting in a way that would foster a worldview similar to that of Iceland while also optimizing pacing control during level design.

So yeah, Sam can canonicly cross 600 km within 20 minutes.
Using vehicles is not an anti-feat since their main advantage is extra cargo weight and less exertion. Plus, plenty of games have anti-feats, including Kojima's Metal Gear Solid, but the general policy for video game characters is that better feats take precedence.
An infant in control of a robotic arm can react to bullets in cutscenes, so it is impossible for adults humans to react to them? He can dodge and see bullets in gameplay, and his perception of time slows down after killing/incapitating an enemy to allow easy aim toward the next target.
 
@ShadowWhoWalks Nothing of what you posted proves your point. In fact, it proves mine. Sam is OBVIOUSLY NOT crossing 600km in 20 minutes, let's not nitpick, if you are using the in game time, use the in game distance too. Also, you see the distance between you and the destinations using the compass, or even the distance you actually crossed when you finished X mission. It's obviously not 600km.
 
>According to the world map

Absolutely wrong. World map has nothing to do with the game, as the game gives you the distance you are actually crossing. You are the one nitpicking here, using a in-game time but not the in-game distance. It doesn't matter if the timeframe is supported by cutscenes, irrelevant.

Or you use the in game distance, or you don't use the feat. Calc got rejected already.
 
There is absolutely no way that Sam is this fast, he is never once implied to be super fast, not to mention if the countries size is scaled down for the game, then it would make sense that the time Sam is travelling is sped up

So no way Sam is Supersonic
 
M3X said:
>According to the world map

Absolutely wrong. World map has nothing to do with the game, as the game gives you the distance you are actually crossing. You are the one nitpicking here, using a in-game time but not the in-game distance. It doesn't matter if the timeframe is supported by cutscenes, irrelevant.

Or you use the in game distance, or you don't use the feat. Calc got rejected already.
Click to expand...

What is the point of the world map again? It is completely irrelevant to the game and story? And Sam's canon objective is to travel 20 km?

Again, the game gave us a tiny lake that is explicitly stated to be the remnant of a city, did Sam cross a city by crossing that small lake? Why aren't you answering this point?

Time frame given by gameplay are unreliable, and timeframes given by cutscenes are irrelevant?

DemonGodMitchAubin said:
There is absolutely no way that Sam is this fast, he is never once implied to be super fast, not to mention if the countries size is scaled down for the game, then it would make sense that the time Sam is travelling is sped up

So no way Sam is Supersonic
Click to expand...
Big Boss is never implied to be strong, but he has an obscure feat where he lifts a giant tank. And? Characters are often made stronger and faster than their creators originally think.
The 20 minute timeframe is given by cutscene; so the time limit is literal and not scaled down like the map.
 
The calc got rejected and it seems that Mitch and M3X have made valid points.
 
I am awaiting their response, specifically to the points:
  1. Do they acknowledge that the timeframe and destination for the feat is established by a cutscene and not just gameplay?
  2. Do they acknowledge that Sam canonically travels throughout the US and that the general location of cities are shown within a canonical map?
  3. Do they acknowledge that the in-game levels are a downscaled version of the US, and that this is stated by devs?
  4. Do they acknowledge that a tiny in-game lake is canonically stated to have housed an entire city, and that this is clear evidence that in-game levels are downscaled?
If they acknowledge the above, then this dismantles the premises of their argument. And we are left with the argument that a video game character doesn't look fast at first impression, which isn't persuasive.
 
>Big Boss is never implied to be strong, but he has an obscure feat where he lifts a giant tank.

As some who has binged every single metal gear game in the past two months, I can say with certainty, bad example. Big Boss is hyped up to he strong as ****, and he has 3 feats of lifting giant Mecha. It's even slightly implied his inhuman abilities are due to radiation and the like. Not to mention speed like a few dozen bullet dodging feats or characters casually lifting and tossing hundreds of kg around like it weighs as much as a tissue or punching through solid concrete, etc. Big Boss is strong, and he's supposed to be strong, he's explicitly superhuman, to what extent? Well that can vary depending on the game, but he's blatantly vastly superhuman.
 
Anyway, it's true the game map isn't to scale and is actually massive. That doesn't automatically translate to instant supersonic speed, the timeframe could be skewed as well. We don't know, we need more evidence and confirmation first, at the moment, supersonic movement is sus as ****, even if reactions aren't.
 
I think there is enough consensus about agreement with the OP. But just to cover all bases, @DemonGodMitchAubin @M3X can reply to ShadowWhoWalks' last comment.
 
Chariot190 said:
>Big Boss is never implied to be strong, but he has an obscure feat where he lifts a giant tank.

As some who has binged every single metal gear game in the past two months, I can say with certainty, bad example. Big Boss is hyped up to he strong as ****, and he has 3 feats of lifting giant Mecha. It's even slightly implied his inhuman abilities are due to radiation and the like. Not to mention speed like a few dozen bullet dodging feats or characters casually lifting and tossing hundreds of kg around like it weighs as much as a tissue or punching through solid concrete, etc. Big Boss is strong, and he's supposed to be strong, he's explicitly superhuman, to what extent? Well that can vary depending on the game, but he's blatantly vastly superhuman.
Click to expand...
The narrative itself doesn't acknowledge him having the massive amount of super strength needed to lift Cocoon. All three lifting feats happen in the same game, and when lifting a giant mech was relevant to the story of the same game this dialogue happens:
Huey: The platform's sustained a lot of external damage. All we need is some pressure...
Kaz: Pressure?
Huey: Sink it in the lake. With that much water pressure, even the tiniest crack should be enough to flood the innard. The AI Pod is a mass of highly sensitive electronics. Short the contacts and the signal will stop.
Kaz: How much does that thing weigh?
Huey: 500 Tons.
Kaz: It's hopeless. We can't move that thing.
Big Boss: Get the pentagon on the phone!
Big Boss didn't bother pushing 500 tons a few meters into the water to prevent nuclear world war even though he desperately wants to stop it, and his best friend Kaz thinks moving such mass within a short time frame is ridiculous. Same with Big Boss being unable to escape a jail cell without subterfuge. If it is reasonable to say that the writer glossed over how strong Big Boss is, then it is reasonable to say that the writer glossed over how fast Sam is.

Chariot190 said:
Anyway, it's true the game map isn't to scale and is actually massive. That doesn't automatically translate to instant supersonic speed, the timeframe could be skewed as well. We don't know, we need more evidence and confirmation first, at the moment, supersonic movement is sus as ****, even if reactions aren't.
Click to expand...
The timeframe is given by a cutscene, I don't know how we can consider it skewed besides pretending this part of the story didn't happen.
GZDULEz.png
 
I 100% agree with M3X here. It's completely absurd to scale in game running speed to the real life size of the game. It's just obvious game mechanics. Imagine having to actually walk for 4 months in real time in order to finish the game.
 
In-game running speed is not scaled and is not part of the calculation, and it is considered Game-Mechanics.
What is scaled is the distance Sam needs to travel to reach the location mentioned in the cutscene according to the canonical in-world map, within the time frame confirmed by the cutscene.
 
Which is bad. The time stamp is that because it's in accordance to the relative distance from in game, not the real life equivalent. Not to mention this is directly contradicted by the very existence of the game itself. Sam casually traversing at Supersonic speeds across the US not only completely breaks the whole concept of the game, but the lore as well.

Even if we accepted this as a reasnoble scale, which it isn't, it would still be an outlier.
 
The time stamp could've been made larger in the cutscene and smaller in gameplay if what you are saying is true, but as far as canon goes Fragile told Sam that he can travel to an other city within 20 minutes.
Gameplay atmosphere and Game Mechanics isn't relevant here, and I don't see how the lore would be broken; he needs not travel at the speed of his highest showing all the time and the general populace need not scale to the 'The Great Deliverer/The Man Who Delivers".
 
Why would it be smaller in the gameplay but higher in the cutscene? That's just immersion breaking for a game that tries to be immersive.

They are completely relevant here. Because if Sam could casually fly through America at supersonic speeds most of the gameplay and lore would fall apart. Oh there's a BT zone here? Who cares Sam can ran past it before none of them even register he was there. There's a MULE zone here with people that try to kill you? No problem Sam can just fly past them and beat them/get the stolen equipment before they even blink. A person died and it's in a danger of necrosis? What's the worry, Sam here can zip to the other side of the continent in a few hours. Oh a city has been disconnected for three years? Why didn't you say so, Sam can go through every single city in the USA and connect them in less than 10 hours.

Having Sam at this speed makes every single aspect of the game and lore irrelevant. What's the point of vehicles, before he was stuck on foot he was using a bike to get around, which would've been multiple times slower than he was, it wouldn't even justify the extra carry he could potentially have because it'd just be easier to have a round trip rather than travel with a bike. Also MULEs and BTs being an actual thread would've been a complete joke, none of them could even think about doing anything to Sam because of that speed. That's not even getting into the question of how any of his equipment would survive in all this. In a game where the most important thing is keeping cargo and your boots/equipment in good shape, him traveling at 500 m/s would be extremely counter productive.
 
Like I said, what Fragile stated Sam could do is canon regardless of speculations about author's intent.

Next thing we know, we'll ignore the concept of Game Mechanics and question why gameplay Mario is threatened by Wall Level characters and why Mario didn't casually fly to castles and finish searching them in a fraction of a second.
The answer is the same: He doesn't need to display his high showing all the time + Game Mecahnics
 
Is there anything besides gameplay that proves that Sam would have a faster than average human travel speed?
 
An other example of abnormally fast travel speed is that 'Peter Englert' states in a mail that the pizza that reached him is "fresh pizza, still piping hot from the oven", that with the ridiculous distance (according to the in-universe map) required to travel made as a challenge/troll. Chilled packages are a thing, so package containers don't create a thermally isolated system, and pizza can become unsafe for consumption after a couple of hours in room temperature.

For Sam not displaying this travel speed feats more often, I honestly don't find any issue with it, just like I don't find an issue with Metal Gear cutscenes which plot hinges on characters acting like they don't have super strength or super speed.
 
>and pizza can become unsafe for consumption after a couple of hours in room temperature.
Someone who's never had been to college.

>just like I don't find an issue with Metal Gear cutscenes which plot hinges on characters acting like they don't have super strength or super speed.
Twin Snakes would like a word with you. Along with Solid Snake or Raiden dodging bullets or The Boss dodging a bullet after it was fired despite the gun being point at her face, in cutscenes. You'd be better off not trying to treat Death Stranding like Metal Gear 2 when its not even remotely in the same situation. Or characters busting down walls or punching through steel and a bunch of other things in cutscenes.
 
Last edited:
I don't feel there is any need to delay this anymore. The proposal has been largely accepted and I think it is fine if the changes are made according to that.
 
I want to answer Shadow's argument. I don't think it's correct to simply ignore it and downgrade the chatacters. I mean, go ahead and apply the ratings but don't close the thread, please.
 
I wasn't going to apply the changes anyway, I'd have asked you to do so. Anyway, like you said, we can wait for your rebuttal.
 
What is the point of the world map again? It is completely irrelevant to the game and story? And Sam's canon objective is to travel 20 km?

I will try to be as clear as possible. I don't expect you to agree, but this thread is almost accepted. The map used by the game respects its size, the map is no more than 20km, as I said above. The point of this is, you can't just ignore what the game uses and use the real map of the United States. Whenever you finish a delivery, the game shows you your route, it is information from the game itself. Assuming that Sam is traveling at supersonic speeds and crossing hundreds of kilometers is completely at odds with the concept of the game.

Again, the game gave us a tiny lake that is explicitly stated to be the remnant of a city, did Sam cross a city by crossing that small lake? Why aren't you answering this point?

As you said, a small lake. Statement about its size can be ignored, since the IN-GIN-GAME lake size isn't the size of a city. I suppose this is the heart shaped lake near Heartman's house? If so, then yeah, not even close to the size of a city.

Time frame given by gameplay are unreliable, and timeframes given by cutscenes are irrelevant?

Well, the timeframe during gameplay is also consistent, since you have a timer, at least for this 20 minutes timeframe. I never said that the timeframe is unreliable, I just said that if you are going to use the in-game timeframe, use the in-game distance.
 
Anyway, I agree with Ogbu, and his arguments + mine are enough to downgrade the verse. @AKM sama can I edit the profiles now or should I wait?
 
I personally think that the map is supposed to be, canonically, the size of the U.S, and simply isnt in gameplay as it'd be ******* completely unrealistic for a game to be that large, like, ******* of course it's gonna be a approximation and not the full thing. Games do that all the time, Pokemon is the main example (for example, one route is stated to be 6 miles long with millions of stones, but in game it's like 100m at most and with maybe two dozen stones).

But, I also feel that, even though the map is an approximation of a canon much larger size, that doesnt inherently mean that Sam's speed is somehow mach speeds for covering that distance. If the map is a approximation and not literal of what it actually is, who's to say the same doesnt apply for the movement as well and the timeframes? It could be, and likely is, a bastardized version of what's canonically happening for the sake of gameplay as well.

If we get a statement saying that, despite the canon size, Sam actually does do shit like traverse the whole country in minutes real unskwed time then maybe. But at the moment, I'm not on board with that as movement speed, it's kinda flimsy and based on gameplay almost entirely. Mach reactions are fine, just not movement for the time being in my opinion.
 
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