Death Battle REMATCH | Naruto vs Ichigo GRACE

[RanaProGamer]

I realized that we were able to have a Naruto vs Bleach matchup not that long ago. As it stands, Soul Crush is currently baseline and can be resisted by baseline resistance, so this matchup is possible (until Bleach gets its layers approved).

Standard Battle Assumptions

Speed equalized

5-C Versions

Battle takes place in Fake Karakura Town

Naruto scales to 44.37 Exatons
Ichigo scales to 133.05 Exatons

Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto vs Fullbring Bankai Ichigo

Who wins and why?

Ichigo: ReaperAndBlues, KillerNerd007, Arc7Kuroi, Tatsumi504, Deceived3596, GOATMAN1232000, Excellence616, Floxiaaa, TOAAPRESENCE1, That_moron2
Naruto:
Incon: karo_senpaii

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

So Ichigo won't have a problem with Shadow Clones since he has an AOE Getsuga that can wipe out a lot of them at once, also considering one slice takes them out with both the AP diff and the fact that his clones usually aren't as durable as the real Naruto. Ichigo also is more mobile with Shunpo as even in the first arc he can spam it relentlessly after only just learning it. Naruto is also going to have a problem with the skill difference since Sasuke can overwhelm clones on his own, which Ichigo has had experience fighting people and beings with far more qualitative and quantitative experience than him with mastery of swordsmanship. TSO aren't gonna be an issue since Ichigo is also stronger than them as well.

Overall, I'd say Ichigo takes this Mid Diff

 

[Robo432343]

 

[RanaProGamer]

So Ichigo won't have a problem with Shadow Clones since he has an AOE Getsuga that can wipe out a lot of them at once, also considering one slice takes them out with both the AP diff and the fact that his clones usually aren't as durable as the real Naruto. Ichigo also is more mobile with Shunpo as even in the first arc he can spam it relentlessly after only just learning it. Naruto is also going to have a problem with the skill difference since Sasuke can overwhelm clones on his own, which Ichigo has had experience fighting people and beings with far more qualitative and quantitative experience than him with mastery of swordsmanship. TSO aren't gonna be an issue since Ichigo is also stronger than them as well.

Overall, I'd say Ichigo takes this Mid Diff

Just curious, how is Ichigo being stronger gonna help him against hax?

 

[Robo432343]

yeah
Ichigo being stronger than TSO doesn't mean he resist TSO

 

[Excellence616]

Just curious, how is Ichigo being stronger gonna help him against hax?

Power null

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Power null

Pretty sure that's not how power null works.

 

[Excellence616]

Pretty sure that's not how power null works.

In Bleach, being stronger than your opponent gives you the ability to null their hax

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

In Bleach, being stronger than your opponent gives you the ability to null their hax

We definitely don't accept that here, otherwise we would give everyone in Dragon Ball this same justification.

 

[Robo432343]

why does it say limited power null on ichigos profile

 

[That_moron2]

I don’t think the gap is enough for him to power null the TSOs

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Ichigo also resists TSOs so would it even be an issue? Plus they only null Ninjutsu, which only equates to negating Getsuga Tenshou, Ichigo can split them in two.

 

[Robo432343]

Is Ichigo's resistance to EE combat applicable?

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Is Ichigo's resistance to EE combat applicable?

Aizen's passive EE isn't (or is chosen not to be), the resistance should be.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Only reason it shouldn't is if it's restricted.

 

[Deceived3596]

Firstly, Aizen's Existence Erasure is combat applicable, the possibly rating on the profile has nothing to do with its assumed combat applicability in general, but rather if the ability is purely Existence Erasure, one that doesn't require a spiritual gap between the two for the effect to take place, or requires Aizen to be significantly stronger than his opponent to erase them from existence. If we're assuming that Ichigo's resistance is applicable, by logical entailment Aizen's ability is as well.

Secondly, characters in Bleach that use Reiryoku to fight do have limited power null as it's a stated in verse mechanic that battles in Bleach are battles of spiritual energy, and that much stronger users can nullify the abilities of much weaker users. It's accepted as applicable in a Thread I made a while back and applied to the Soul Physiology page, so trying to bring up whataboutisms like Dragonball and how they handle KI on wiki is fallacious.

 

[Robo432343]

who has the better speed amps

 

[Deceived3596]

who has the better speed amps

Both basically have the same amps.

Both can amplify their speed through infusing their respective energy systems into themselves to increase their speed by an unknown amount.

Both have movement techniques (Shunpo and Shunshin) that allow someone to go FTE to an individual who could keep up with their base movements.

Both have additional means to increase their speed outside of those techniques, such as Ichigo combining Bringer Light with his Shunpo and Naruto using Boil Release.

 

[That_moron2]

Who has the skill advantage?

 

[Robo432343]

Who has the skill advantage?

naruto is genius in combat
ichigo is gifted

though im pretty sure ichigo is getting a genius in combat upgrade?

 

[Deceived3596]

Who has the skill advantage?

It depends, going by the profiles, Naruto's Genius rating comes from his ability to make multi-step plans on the fly or just being a generally good tactician, while Ichigo is Gifted because of his swordsmanship and ability to adapt on the fly against his opponent. If we're talking about pure combat, Ichigo is probably the better fighter since his rating comes mostly from that, but when discussing things like planning, Naruto is probably better for the same reasoning.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

naruto is genius in combat
ichigo is gifted

though im pretty sure ichigo is getting a genius in combat upgrade?

He is soon. Also Ichigo easily is better. He has fought opponents with massive experience advantages as early as the SS Arc. After only 10 days of training he stalemated Kenpachi, who fought Unohana as a child and gave her the toughest battle she has had to until their rematch. Unohana also isn't unskilled, she mastered 8000 sword styles, hence her name. He also deflected millions of paper-thin blades surrounding him on all sides while they moved relative if not faster than him. Ichigo is more skilled by quite a bit.

 

[Nierre]

It depends, going by the profiles, Naruto's Genius rating comes from his ability to make multi-step plans on the fly or just being a generally good tactician, while Ichigo is Gifted because of his swordsmanship and ability to adapt on the fly against his opponent. If we're talking about pure combat, Ichigo is probably the better fighter since his rating comes mostly from that, but when discussing things like planning, Naruto is probably better for the same reasoning.

Agreed. I don't think one greatly eclipses the other in combat. Ichigo is definitely more skilled but Naruto covers for that gap with his tactical skill and unpredictable plans and abilities

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Agreed. I don't think one greatly eclipses the other in combat. Ichigo is definitely more skilled but Naruto covers for that gap with his tactical skill and unpredictable plans and abilities

Do remember Ichigo also is an extremely adaptive fighter and he isn't exactly new when it comes to dealing with deception. Naruto might catch him once, but afterwards Ichigo ain't letting that happen again. He learned everything about Gin's Bankai's retraction after he only used it twice and gave him unnecessary info and tried to hide it's speed through destructive force. Gin also isn't a nobody, he's one of the best manipulators in the verse.

 

[Nierre]

Do remember Ichigo also is an extremely adaptive fighter and he isn't exactly new when it comes to dealing with deception. Naruto might catch him once, but afterwards Ichigo ain't letting that happen again. He learned everything about Gin's Bankai's retraction after he only used it twice and gave him unnecessary info and tried to hide it's speed through destructive force. Gin also isn't a nobody, he's one of the best manipulators in the verse.

I remember, but I also don't think Ichigo's abilities are something Naruto needs to do big IQ plans around to fight against. Ichigo is hella skilled but his bag is also straightlaced which makes it easier for Naruto to plan around. It's not like he's fighting against an Obito or a Nagato where they have a whole bunch of hax and abilities he needs to look out for. Also Naruto doesn't really ever try the same move/plan more than once if he knows it's not going to work. His bag and BIQ at this point in this series is farr to expansive and varied for him to try one trick over and over.

 

[Robo432343]

Unohana also isn't unskilled, she mastered 8000 sword styles, hence her name. He also deflected millions of paper-thin blades surrounding him on all sides while they moved relative if not faster than him. Ichigo is more skilled by quite a bit.

Isn't the feat of Naruto mastering yin yang releases which are the foundational abilities for all jujsu in the world and utilizing all 5 nature transformations way better than this?
there are better arguments for ichigo>naruto in skill

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

I remember, but I also don't think Ichigo's abilities are something Naruto needs to do big IQ plans around to fight against. Ichigo is hella skilled but his bag is also straightlaced which makes it easier for Naruto to plan around. It's not like he's fighting against an Obito or a Nagato where they have a whole bunch of hax and abilities he needs to look out for. Also Naruto doesn't really ever try the same move/plan more than once if he knows it's not going to work. His bag and BIQ at this point in this series is farr to expansive and varied for him to try one trick over and over.

Ichigo also isn't just gonna pull out every trick with Getsuga all at once. He has multiple strategies and ways that he's used it before. Hell, Ichigo shouldn't be gifted in combat, his feats alone begs for genius, which is why I'm working on that. Ichigo's perceptiveness on his ability to read Gin's Bankai means that he will catch on quickly, if not instantly, which to also say that he even deduced his Bankai's speed after one shot, he only needed the second to confirm. Not to mention Ichigo has analytical prediction up his sleeve too, which even while dizzy he perfectly countered Renji, he only stopped cus he lacked a killing edge.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Isn't the feat of Naruto mastering yin yang releases which are the foundational abilities for all jujsu in the world way better than this?
there are better arguments for ichigo>naruto in skill

There are better ones, I'm just tired rn. I have an entire skillslop worth that I can pull out. Plus, Naruto was gifted Ying Yang by Hags.

 

[Nierre]

Ichigo also isn't just gonna pull out every trick with Getsuga all at once. He has multiple strategies and ways that he's used it before. Hell, Ichigo shouldn't be gifted in combat, his feats alone begs for genius, which is why I'm working on that. Ichigo's perceptiveness on his ability to read Gin's Bankai means that he will catch on quickly, if not instantly, which to also say that he even deduced his Bankai's speed after one shot, he only needed the second to confirm. Not to mention Ichigo has analytical prediction up his sleeve too, which even while dizzy he perfectly countered Renji, he only stopped cus he lacked a killing edge.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but again, Ichigo is objectively a straightlaced fighter compared to characters like Obito, Nagato, Kaguya, Madara etc etc.

Like you said Ichigo is most definitely a genius fighter who's skill is very underrated in and out the wiki, but I genuinely don't think Ichigo eclipses Naruto in the fight just due to his skill.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but again, Ichigo is objectively a straightlaced fighter compared to characters like Obito, Nagato, Kaguya, Madara etc etc.

Like you said Ichigo is most definitely a genius fighter who's skill is very underrated in and out the wiki, but I genuinely don't think Ichigo eclipses Naruto in the fight just due to his skill.

Well the difference isn't Homelander vs Zoro level, but it also doesn't help Nard that Ichigo has an AP advantage by over 3 times. I'm merely saying Ichigo isn't getting completely outsmarted by Naruto. Even when it comes to BIQ Ichigo can be argued for genius too. He would catch onto his plans and would analyze the situation to find a weakness in his array of hax. I will conceed on the fact that Ichigo has at this point very little bag compared to the ones you mentioned, but he can use it in creative ways to make up for it.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Ichigo also has a massive stamina advantage, weaker versions of him survived Senka, which basically slashed his vital organs and can train for 5 days straight with no rest. This ichigo can fight for 3 months.

 

[Nierre]

Stamina isn't really a factor here at all. Naruto has tons of chakra and reserves and can fight for a long ass time too. This fight isn't lasting a long time

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Just pointing it out if someone argues any stamina wincons. This fight is lasting like 4 minutes tops.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

To counter Naruto's plans being trouble, Ichigo isn't a novice when it comes to dealing with multi-step plans. Of course I mentioned the Gin feat where He uses filler info and mass destruction, but he also has held his own in other places too. Against Byakuya he was able to prevent an outskilling attempt when he started to slow down when he blitzed him twice, once to compromise his defense, the other to kill.

 

[Robo432343]

ngl it probably all comes down to AP

 

[RanaProGamer]

I kind of see this fight turning out like how Asskin vs Ichigo turned out. Ichigo being a stronger fighter, but having no answer against most of Naruto’s hax

 

[Robo432343]

I kind of see this fight turning out like how Asskin vs Ichigo turned out. Ichigo being a stronger fighter, but having no answer against most of Naruto’s hax

you should probably elaborate on the hax

 

[KillerNerd007]

I'm here for the skill and battle iq points and yes, I'm the guy revising Ichigo's battle iq. He should be gifted in general stuff and a genius at least in battle iq.

Now for who I think wins its Ichigo.

Comparing swordsmanship to hand to hand combat is difficult, the only possible way would be to compare their inverse scaling and then see who gets higher than who as a result (mastery over x amount of fighting styles, how deep you go into it, etc.). On that note, I think Ichigo wins it comfortably, due to his fights against massively skilled characters like Byakuya, Yhwach and Gin, who he had to face in direct skill to skill confrontation, where as Naruto really doesn't fight people with that amount of skill, mostly relying on his hax (like his Rasenshuriken redirection vs Raikage, and this isn't to say he isn't skilled, as he did fight in direct hand to hand combat vs Madara, but even Madara himself is more of a power based fighter in his fighting style compared to many other characters Ichigo fights against, and he also faced against opponents who have a power based fighting style whilst at an ap disadvantage such as Kenpachi and Nnoitora). If you wanna talk about what they learned, Naruto failed in the Ninja Academy, Ichigo sparred for 5 days straight and defeated people who did better than Naruto in what they learned and got pretty far (such as Ikkaku and Renji). If you wanna talk experience, Bleach definitely overshadows Naruto in that aspects.

I can't think of an angle where in inverse scaling, Naruto could hypothetically win, the majority of them Ichigo has the advantage in skill.

In terms of battle iq, the two are different, Naruto is more strategic and creative, and Ichigo is more instinctive and adaptive.

Naruto's creativity might not be something Ichigo will have a hard time to keep up with, as he not only also created creative strategies (such as the Getsuga Tenshou vs Ulquiorra to close the ap gap and as a result would close the speed gap as his Bankai converts his Spiritual Energy into speed, or how he had a bad Fullbring for offensive and defensive purposes, yet he created an effective strategy using it after 17 months of not doing Shinigami level battles), but he also did many of these strategies whilst more limited than Naruto. On top of that, even Naruto's drastically different fighting style won't be hard for Ichigo to deal with, as on two different occassions, Ichigo fought people who change fighting styles on the spot and won (Ikkaku and Grimmjow).

As for Naruto's planning ability, it won't matter much, due to Ichigo's confrontation with Gin, as Gin literally created a tactic meant to hide away his Bankai's main attribute which is speed, by giving away pointless information meant to distract him, and Ichigo figured it out right away and anticipated counter moves to perform on the spot. Gin on top of that also tried to change his approach in fighting to try and catch Ichigo by surprise on the spot yet Ichigo saw right through it. This is notable cause Gin himself can trick geniuses like Toshiro, and can convince Aizen to give away the weakness of his KS. Naruto's plan may have more steps along the way, but the idea of long term strategy (Naruto creating steps to his plans and Gin lying about his Bankai's attribute and giving away pointless information) and works of deception are still there, yet as we see directly, it doesn't work on Ichigo.

For Ichigo's end, Naruto hasn't really fought someone as adaptive and instinctive as Ichigo, his main rival Sasuke doesn't respond well to sudden changes to both himself and an opponent's fighting style (as seen with Killer Bee), which Ichigo does change his fighting style dramatically to accomodate the sudden circumstances he is in (such as adapting to Ikkaku's unpredictable fighting style and unpredictable weapon whilst his eye is covered with blood and Ikkaku is aiming for his blind spot or how he was dizzy from blood loss yet he was able to predict Renji's attack patterns with perfect timing), and as for instinctive, nah Naruto can't compete with Ichigo's natural intuition in battle, bro literally gained traction on the air without knowing he could do it, he would adapt to Naruto's out of nowhere tactics without knowing he already did tbh.

I also think Ichigo fought harder when it comes to his battle tactics and fighting style, like compare Naruto creating his multi step plan against Pain after being told intel from Katsuyu vs Ichigo creating counter strategies, anticipating Gin's strategies and deducing all of his tactics whilst being purposefully deceived by Gin. This is like asking "Who is smarter between L to Near and Mello" and then provide the context of what happened (this is spoiler free btw) obviously most would say L is smarter than the two of them, and I think on this case, Ichigo figuring out everything on his own against an ability he never saw and creating counter moves against it is better than Naruto simply creating a plan after being told what each Pain does.

This isn't to say Naruto doesn't have deductive, inductive, and abductive reasoning skills, he figured out Raikage hurt himself when nobody else could and was told the context of what led up to it, its just Ichigo overall fought WAY harder for it.

I think its agreeable that Naruto can take the majority of strategy, unpredictability and creativity, meanwhile Ichigo takes everything else such as prediction, majority of adaptation and deduction. This doesn't look into say the main components of cognitive skills, including FRI (Fluid Reasoning Index), VCI (Vocal Comprehension Index) VSI (Visual Spatial Index), PSI (Processing Speed Index) and WMI (Working Memory Index), which I think Ichigo takes comfortably.

No scans for rn, just a bible since I am going home rn.

 

[RanaProGamer]

you should probably elaborate on the hax

I think Rasenshuriken could incap Ichigo if it lands, and we know Naruto can spam them with his clones, since Ichigo has no resistance to cellular level damage nor Power Null. Also, since Reiatsu and Chakra are equalized, this means that none of Ichigo’s Reiatsu based attacks would work on Naruto due to the properties of Six Paths chakra. So Getsuga Tenshou wouldn’t work whether it lands or not. TSB also power null pretty much every Reiatsu based attacks. If anything, Naruto can spam from a distance while Ichigo can only fight by closing the distance.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Don't see a skill stomp happening here naruto post sage mode became elite at hand to hand duento frog kata being "flawless" tajutsu. His many forms of danger sense/analytical prediction should also help him here

Imo it comes down to if ichigos SE based attacks can harm the the tso or naruto due to their power null aspects for things that aren't infused with senjutsu. Also does ichigo resist corrosion inducement because naruto has access to that now