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We deemed that feat an outlier a while back.
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DC Heralds rescaling thread
- Thread starter Emirp sumitpo
- Start date
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Where?
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Superman (Pre-Crisis) thread
Alright, following the Anti-Monitor thread, I noticed that most of the reasoning behind Pre-Crisis Superman's level was a little weird and should be revised and cleaned up a bit with his more consistent feats. But first, I want to address some fears that I found confusing. This is taken...
Bastolan27
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I don't remember anything about Crisis in Time, but wouldn't something in there make this consistent enough?.Superman (Pre-Crisis) thread
Alright, following the Anti-Monitor thread, I noticed that most of the reasoning behind Pre-Crisis Superman's level was a little weird and should be revised and cleaned up a bit with his more consistent feats. But first, I want to address some fears that I found confusing. This is taken...vsbattles.com
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Could you show me what + this isn't the thread for that.
Bastolan27
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I will do some research, and if I find something, I'll just send it to you or do a CRT.
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I made the edit, you can lock the page again.I have handled it. Tell us here when you are done.
Darkseid (Pre-Flashpoint)
Darkseid is one of the most powerful New Gods and the tyrannical ruler of Apokolips, an archetypal world beyond the boundaries of time and space. His everlasting goal is the utter domination and enslavement of all life in creation, when all is ordered according to his will. Darkseid was formerly...vsbattles.fandom.com
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Big thanks to Emirp, Savitar and Tracer for carrying out some of the edits.
Emirp told me in private it'd be okay for me to edit Superman (Post-Crisis), Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), and Superman (Rebirth) by this point. Can someone unlock them for me?
Oh, and I missed this before, but I think that this makes a lot of sense, maybe besides SBP being mentally nerfed in LO3W, since he had just re-experienced all of his rage from Infinite Crisis and should be at that sort of level.
Emirp told me in private it'd be okay for me to edit Superman (Post-Crisis), Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), and Superman (Rebirth) by this point. Can someone unlock them for me?
Oh, and I missed this before, but I think that this makes a lot of sense, maybe besides SBP being mentally nerfed in LO3W, since he had just re-experienced all of his rage from Infinite Crisis and should be at that sort of level.
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Unlocked.
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Thank you, I have applied the justifications and fixed any editing errors I could spot. They can be closed now.
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@Maverick_Zero_X Could you unlock the pages again, there’s some formatting issues that I’d like to fix.
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Done.
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Thanks, you can lock the pages again.
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It can be closed.I have handled it. Tell us here when you are done.
Darkseid (Pre-Flashpoint)
Darkseid is one of the most powerful New Gods and the tyrannical ruler of Apokolips, an archetypal world beyond the boundaries of time and space. His everlasting goal is the utter domination and enslavement of all life in creation, when all is ordered according to his will. Darkseid was formerly...
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Apparently, for whatever reason, that feat isn't valid.
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Could someone also unlock this profile?
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I’ve done so.
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Thank you.
Also, I'm just going to upgrade Zod to Low 2-C for now, if that's fine with everyone.
I have a revisions for him in the works, and everything'll be covered there. But I'd prefer to just upgrade him for now so he's not an odd one out.
His profile also needs to be unlocked, though.
Also, I'm just going to upgrade Zod to Low 2-C for now, if that's fine with everyone.
I have a revisions for him in the works, and everything'll be covered there. But I'd prefer to just upgrade him for now so he's not an odd one out.
His profile also needs to be unlocked, though.
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Alright; I'm finished.
Though, again, I don't know how to add references.
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Copy and paste the source code of the sandbox, then it’ll include the references.
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Oh okay, thank you!
Also, does anyone know when the Eradicator Absorption took place? What comic and/or year?
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I've given myself the task of going through all the affected profiles and removing outdated matches, and I've done half so far.
TimeTrapperFanBoy
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Superman Vol 2 #82 during the Reign of Supermen event.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I'm done with the matches.
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Why are we so sure New 52 scales to none of this? The merging of the timelines was never treated as a dramatic power upgrade, and there 100% were interactions and fights between New-52 and Rebirth/Post Crisis people in things like Convergence
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That's honestly never been said -- as I recall.
New 52 just wasn't handled because it was going to be for another, future thread.
TimeTrapperFanBoy
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The previous thread was only for Post-Crisis/Rebirth characters. New 52/Post-Flashpoint would be handled next, since like you said they would likely all scale.
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Idk, we'll discuss that later.
I mean, if I'm being honest, New 52 as a whole has much worse feats but again, that's for another thread.
Excellence616
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Will Doomsday get 2-C?
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Yes
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Currently outside the US, so replies will be slower.
@Ehnkr2beboh
I'm not sure where this reading comes from. What we see is that when Driq is outside of Flodo, a green construct forms, seemingly what the text on Driq's ring pulling a form together refers to, and this construct is present when the Galaxy is contracting, as well as contracting alongside. I'm not sure why restricting Flodo would restore his sanity if the cause is that he's merged with the whole sector, as he would still be merged with it, and take up that space until he has contracted. The more sensible reading is that Driq restricts and contracts Flodo Span, and with that, Flodo regains sanity.
Also, even if we say that all Driq did was restrain Flodo, that probably still results in 3-C results, no?
Despite this argument, the feat was still largely accepted. Any discussion on those feats should either be handled later or in private rather then derailing this thread.
Please link the respective posts where this feat was properly discussed.
I'm not sure why both can't be true at the same time, as in, Krona is both getting their power and scales to them beforehand, but true, it could be phrased better to note of both.
This is already accounted for in the current drafts:
@Emirp sumitpo and I previously addressed this concern in the thread.
Untrue.
A peak pre-Death Superman scaled to a peak Death of Superman Doomsday (Superman #75), and even before reaching new levels of power, he could take a punch from the earlier Doomsday, as well as a kick that Superman considered to be the strongest hit he'd felt (Superman #74). The idea of DoS Doomsday being superior to Darkseid is made even more consistent with the fact that a far earlier Doomsday in Doomsday Annual was implied to be pretty much equal to Darkseid.
The current discussion is about whether Pre-Abs Superman directly scales to Darkseid. This argument is that Superman indirectly scales to Darkseid through directly scaling from Doomsday.
Superman also withstands pain greater than what Darkseid could put him through in Action Comics #656.
The panel says that the pain is more than what Darkseid gave him before, not that it was greater than what Darkseid could ever do.
Superman also scales to the Hank Hall Monarch, who was compared to the Dreamslayer by Captain Atom (Justice League America #87), who Darkseid admits is a rival to him (Justice League America #88).
Again, this argument is that Superman indirectly scales to Darkseid through directly scaling from Hank Hall Monarch.
Supes also recovered from an attack from Maxima (Superman: The Man of Tomorrow #7) sooner than Darkseid's equal, Orion did (Superman #65).
You are equating a physical PSI Blast to her psychically attacking Orion's mind. Maxima even says that Orion's strength and brawn have no resistance to psychic assault.
Darkseid's statement isn't all too relevant in my opinion. He's quite the arrogant character and considering the later events of the comic, I wouldn't value the statement much. Superman straight up beats Darkseid an admitted fair fight, as you note.
This except is just a summary of what occurred in that comic issue at the time. Yes, at the time, it was called a fair fight. This event has since been retconned.
This is out of context. Leading up to this, Superman gets noticeably battle damaged, and then has to stop Darkseid's machine, which was explicitly a great cost to him.
Superman only got shot twice by the power given to the cult by Darkseid. Superman couldn't even get past their forcefield. When disabling the machine, his only struggle was that there was no air. Superman later took time to catch his breath before going back toward the troops. The scaling here seems to be Darkseid > Power Given to Cutlists > Superman.
And despite this, Superman is still ready and confident to continue.
Whether or not Darkseid's attack was meant to cause crippling damage is irrelevant. Darkseid casually batted away a Superman intending to fight him, at the very least showing that Darkseid has an edge over Superman.
Superman also does the exact same thing to Orion, Darkseid's equal, in issue #3, so by your own logic, Superman can "easily bat away" characters on Darkseid's level.
According to the current profile, Orion is only stated to be equal in strength to Kalibak. Orion only scales to Darkseid at his peak power. You would need to prove that Superman fought an Orion at peak power to indirectly scale to Darkseid.
This is literally impossible. Darkseid banished Desaad to Skartaris during the Legends #4, with this directly leading in to the arc with Superman. DC seems to maintain it being Darkseid as well, including it in a Superman vs Darkseid compilation described by their website as battles with the Dark Lord of Apokolips. This scan, which isn't even explicit in what it's referring to, is very weak in comparison to this.
In an ideal world all retconcs would make sense. This is not the case in the real world. It just has to be convenient to the goals of the writers.
"Comic book fans will be familiar with the term 'retcon', which in layman's terms means that the writer waves his hand and tells you 'Remember when we said this? We screwed up, forget about that.'" — Spoony on Highlander III: The Sorcerer
Additionally, I highly doubt that the writers of the comic had a hand in making the website. The DC Wiki lists the comics as an appearance without any note about a later retcon in the respective comics.
Starfire comes to the same conclusion Rann-Thanagar: Holy War #4, and it's not just one space cop, but a consensus between them.
My point still stands. Rann-Thanagar: Holy War Vol 1 #4 is from October 2008. Why are we using these statements to judge Mongul from 10 and 20 years ago respectively? Does Mongul not have anyone else he directly scales to in the early 90s?
That is part of his justification alongside his scaling to Darkseid and others. A 2-C character performing a 3-A or Low 2-C feat can be a supporting feat in their justification.
The issue is that this 3-A and Low 2-C feat was Orion's peak power at the time. Using the Astro Force in this instance was his limit. It nearly killed him,
Why so?
Similar to other characters, Orion's portrayal of power has varied. Some examples include the Prior Astro Force Limit and his trouble with the Void Hound.
A character who shows up between JLA: Classified #50 and #54.
I'm not exactly sure where Martian Manhunter's scaling will end up, but considering some of his feats, I'd be surprised if he doesn't even reach 3-A or Low 2-C. Titus could also hurt Hal Jordan, so him scaling to upper tiers of Earth even during that timeframe is pretty fair.
My issue is that none of the details about Titus was (and currently is not) included in the draft and the recent profile revision. Why did you guys approve and include it if this entry is incomplete? Martian Manhunter is not even rated as Tier 2 on his profile.
Superman scaling to Hank Hall Monarch was already accepted on the prior thread, so I don't want to get too deep into this topic, but just to restate the reason he scales, it's because he took an attack from him, staggered him while pulling his punch, shattered his armor (Armageddon #2), and was stated to be capable of defeating him (Adventures of Superman Annual #3). I'm also unaware how you came to the conclusion that Superman was incapacitated, while we do see him get blasted back, he is not among the characters Monarch restrains, nor is he shown to be damaged from the blast.
Captain Adam's profile says that he Monarch (Hank Hall) overpowered the likes of Superman, Guy Gardner, Martian Manhunter, Mon-El, Waverider, and more.
@FaOfRPGs asked me to share his reply.
In Armageddon 2001 #2 Superman tried to restrain Monarch initially but was blasted, he tanked it and punched Monarch, later saying he was pulling his punches. This is being used for scaling.
However, Monarch wasn't going all out either. The second he did, he easily beat Superman, Guy Gardner, and Martian Man Hunter at once. He wasn't using his full power for real until he faced off with Captain Atom.
Furthermore, Nathaniel Adam as Monarch absolutely should not scale to Superman, being stated to be stronger than all Supermen in the multiverse combined.
@Ehnkr2beboh
I'm not sure where this reading comes from. What we see is that when Driq is outside of Flodo, a green construct forms, seemingly what the text on Driq's ring pulling a form together refers to, and this construct is present when the Galaxy is contracting, as well as contracting alongside. I'm not sure why restricting Flodo would restore his sanity if the cause is that he's merged with the whole sector, as he would still be merged with it, and take up that space until he has contracted. The more sensible reading is that Driq restricts and contracts Flodo Span, and with that, Flodo regains sanity.
Also, even if we say that all Driq did was restrain Flodo, that probably still results in 3-C results, no?
Despite this argument, the feat was still largely accepted. Any discussion on those feats should either be handled later or in private rather then derailing this thread.
Please link the respective posts where this feat was properly discussed.
I'm not sure why both can't be true at the same time, as in, Krona is both getting their power and scales to them beforehand, but true, it could be phrased better to note of both.
This is already accounted for in the current drafts:
@Emirp sumitpo and I previously addressed this concern in the thread.
Untrue.
A peak pre-Death Superman scaled to a peak Death of Superman Doomsday (Superman #75), and even before reaching new levels of power, he could take a punch from the earlier Doomsday, as well as a kick that Superman considered to be the strongest hit he'd felt (Superman #74). The idea of DoS Doomsday being superior to Darkseid is made even more consistent with the fact that a far earlier Doomsday in Doomsday Annual was implied to be pretty much equal to Darkseid.
The current discussion is about whether Pre-Abs Superman directly scales to Darkseid. This argument is that Superman indirectly scales to Darkseid through directly scaling from Doomsday.
Superman also withstands pain greater than what Darkseid could put him through in Action Comics #656.
The panel says that the pain is more than what Darkseid gave him before, not that it was greater than what Darkseid could ever do.
Superman also scales to the Hank Hall Monarch, who was compared to the Dreamslayer by Captain Atom (Justice League America #87), who Darkseid admits is a rival to him (Justice League America #88).
Again, this argument is that Superman indirectly scales to Darkseid through directly scaling from Hank Hall Monarch.
Supes also recovered from an attack from Maxima (Superman: The Man of Tomorrow #7) sooner than Darkseid's equal, Orion did (Superman #65).
You are equating a physical PSI Blast to her psychically attacking Orion's mind. Maxima even says that Orion's strength and brawn have no resistance to psychic assault.
Darkseid's statement isn't all too relevant in my opinion. He's quite the arrogant character and considering the later events of the comic, I wouldn't value the statement much. Superman straight up beats Darkseid an admitted fair fight, as you note.
This except is just a summary of what occurred in that comic issue at the time. Yes, at the time, it was called a fair fight. This event has since been retconned.
This is out of context. Leading up to this, Superman gets noticeably battle damaged, and then has to stop Darkseid's machine, which was explicitly a great cost to him.
Superman only got shot twice by the power given to the cult by Darkseid. Superman couldn't even get past their forcefield. When disabling the machine, his only struggle was that there was no air. Superman later took time to catch his breath before going back toward the troops. The scaling here seems to be Darkseid > Power Given to Cutlists > Superman.
And despite this, Superman is still ready and confident to continue.
Whether or not Darkseid's attack was meant to cause crippling damage is irrelevant. Darkseid casually batted away a Superman intending to fight him, at the very least showing that Darkseid has an edge over Superman.
Superman also does the exact same thing to Orion, Darkseid's equal, in issue #3, so by your own logic, Superman can "easily bat away" characters on Darkseid's level.
According to the current profile, Orion is only stated to be equal in strength to Kalibak. Orion only scales to Darkseid at his peak power. You would need to prove that Superman fought an Orion at peak power to indirectly scale to Darkseid.
This is literally impossible. Darkseid banished Desaad to Skartaris during the Legends #4, with this directly leading in to the arc with Superman. DC seems to maintain it being Darkseid as well, including it in a Superman vs Darkseid compilation described by their website as battles with the Dark Lord of Apokolips. This scan, which isn't even explicit in what it's referring to, is very weak in comparison to this.
In an ideal world all retconcs would make sense. This is not the case in the real world. It just has to be convenient to the goals of the writers.
"Comic book fans will be familiar with the term 'retcon', which in layman's terms means that the writer waves his hand and tells you 'Remember when we said this? We screwed up, forget about that.'" — Spoony on Highlander III: The Sorcerer
Additionally, I highly doubt that the writers of the comic had a hand in making the website. The DC Wiki lists the comics as an appearance without any note about a later retcon in the respective comics.
Starfire comes to the same conclusion Rann-Thanagar: Holy War #4, and it's not just one space cop, but a consensus between them.
My point still stands. Rann-Thanagar: Holy War Vol 1 #4 is from October 2008. Why are we using these statements to judge Mongul from 10 and 20 years ago respectively? Does Mongul not have anyone else he directly scales to in the early 90s?
That is part of his justification alongside his scaling to Darkseid and others. A 2-C character performing a 3-A or Low 2-C feat can be a supporting feat in their justification.
The issue is that this 3-A and Low 2-C feat was Orion's peak power at the time. Using the Astro Force in this instance was his limit. It nearly killed him,
Why so?
Similar to other characters, Orion's portrayal of power has varied. Some examples include the Prior Astro Force Limit and his trouble with the Void Hound.
A character who shows up between JLA: Classified #50 and #54.
I'm not exactly sure where Martian Manhunter's scaling will end up, but considering some of his feats, I'd be surprised if he doesn't even reach 3-A or Low 2-C. Titus could also hurt Hal Jordan, so him scaling to upper tiers of Earth even during that timeframe is pretty fair.
My issue is that none of the details about Titus was (and currently is not) included in the draft and the recent profile revision. Why did you guys approve and include it if this entry is incomplete? Martian Manhunter is not even rated as Tier 2 on his profile.
Superman scaling to Hank Hall Monarch was already accepted on the prior thread, so I don't want to get too deep into this topic, but just to restate the reason he scales, it's because he took an attack from him, staggered him while pulling his punch, shattered his armor (Armageddon #2), and was stated to be capable of defeating him (Adventures of Superman Annual #3). I'm also unaware how you came to the conclusion that Superman was incapacitated, while we do see him get blasted back, he is not among the characters Monarch restrains, nor is he shown to be damaged from the blast.
Captain Adam's profile says that he Monarch (Hank Hall) overpowered the likes of Superman, Guy Gardner, Martian Manhunter, Mon-El, Waverider, and more.
@FaOfRPGs asked me to share his reply.
In Armageddon 2001 #2 Superman tried to restrain Monarch initially but was blasted, he tanked it and punched Monarch, later saying he was pulling his punches. This is being used for scaling.
However, Monarch wasn't going all out either. The second he did, he easily beat Superman, Guy Gardner, and Martian Man Hunter at once. He wasn't using his full power for real until he faced off with Captain Atom.
Furthermore, Nathaniel Adam as Monarch absolutely should not scale to Superman, being stated to be stronger than all Supermen in the multiverse combined.
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The feat being discussed with you or the feat being accepted? If it wasn't discussed much with you, sorry it was overlooked, but the feat still ended up getting majority agreement. Again, if you have concerns, I could discuss them in another place, but derailing the thread with them is pointless.
I don't really see the concern there, they're straight up just not mutually exclusive and the argument of Krona having the power of the EEs went through. Both can be added to the files and are pretty different feats.
However, Superman having indirect scaling to Darkseid strengthens the overall argument of writer's stacking him up to those on Darkseid's level.
A PSI Blast is also an assault of physic energy, and her psychic assault is also shown as a bolt. The statement can just mean "despite your strength, my power can still hurt you".
Slight typo but same difference really. Supes has fought Darkseid at least 3 times at this point, though 5 counting Confidential, with Confidential especially showing Darkseid using a full Omega Beam assault against him.
This really just depends on the Desaad point later, so I'll a put a pin in this for now.
Superman's battle with the Cultists cannot be compared to a battle with Darkseid. He at first gets caught by surprise, and is trying to talk things out rather than have a real brawl. Not to mention having a group hitting at all angles is always going to give an advantage that a 1v1 wouldn't. The forcefield is an interesting point but I'm not if I would say he literally can't affect it, especially considering he doesn't even punch it or anything. His thought process very well could be "I can't get through the forcefield, because it would hurt me more and then leave me open to another assault" or so. Superman catching his breath is fine and all, but it's still literally stated that it was a great cost to him, so I don't think you can assert he comes back to full power.
Also, at worst, Superman varies, so that could easily be applied to say Superman's just not as his peak here.
I'm basing Orion off of the current justification in the sandbox. Also a bit odd to me how you're quick to say Orion just varies to excuse this, but you're not giving the early PC Superman who's basically constantly learning new things about his power and surprising himself the same benefit.
If the retcon is literally impossible to fit in the story, I don't see a reason to use it, especially when the retcon isn't even clear on what instance it's talking about, and DC seems to reaffirm it being Darkseid later. Also, one writers' view on a retcon should in no way decide how we handle them for a totally separate verse.
The source is the official DC website, no sort of fan wiki, so I don't see the point there. The writers being involved doesn't matter-- hell, Byrne isn't even involved the comic that supposedly retcon's it to being Desaad.
He has scaling to Hal Jordan in the 90s that could be mentioned, sure.
Orion is pretty much fine, so I don't see where it nearly killed him unless there's some dialouge being missed. Also, the Oblivion Bomb having a 3-A/Low 2-C statement doesn't technically cap it there, a 2-C weapon can also destroy a Universe.
We do not give characters varies tiers due to inconsistency, only in canon varies mechanics. The Void Hound also strikes me as an odd example, is it supposed to be an anti-feat because the Void Hound destroyed 10 Star Systems? Because a 2-C weapon can also destroy 10 star systems.
Titus is not planned to have a page. As far as MMH goes, this is literally explained in the Sandbox: "Some justifications reference characters without new justifications, so in case their scaling is decided as not being tier 2, they will be removed from other the aforementioned justifications, as they are still subject to change."
If we decide that MMH isn't tier 2 (which I highly doubt), we could remove it. If he does end up being tier 2 like I predict, then there shouldn't be any problems.
Okay, then I suppose that can be edited to say he blasted Superman back or such.
There's no scan here, so I have no idea what's being suggested for Monarch holding back, so for now this just seems entirely baseless.
No claims have been made about Nathaniel Adam Monarch so I don't think there's any point getting into this.
By the way, as far as I'm aware, it is disallowed to send messages from banned users, so I'm not sure why you're sending his messages in the first place? With that being said, if he has contentions, he is free to try to organize a conversation in private, such as on Discord.
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Honestly, I might agree with Firestorm on the Flodo feat tbf. While Flodo and Driq technically did kill a living galaxy, MadGod, while clearly having cosmic levels of power, does not really have a physical body. So I'm not sure on how reliable this feat is in terms of AP
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Didn't New 52 Superman fight Rebirth Superman?
Spinoirr
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Posting the link to this thread as it applies to the topic here, fixing the DC profiles
vsbattles.com
Superman (DC Comics) Profile(s) Discussion Thread
Golden Age / Earth-Two Silver Age / Earth-One / “Pre-Crisis” New Earth / “Post-Crisis” New 52 / “Post-Flashpoint” Rebirth I made this thread for suggestions on improving Supeman’s profiles in preparation for a CRT (adding missing abilities, scans or supporting evidence). To clarify this thread...
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Do we have any galaxy feats for lower tier/holding back other than Flodo and Driq?
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Could we use Quarzz Tehrarhni sealing a black hole that was going to destroy the entire Space Sector as well?(Green Lantern vol 2 #151)
Space Sectors, being 1/3600th of the universe should count as at least Galaxy level, and have had galaxies in them. For example, our sector (2814) contains the Milky Way Galaxy and Galaxy 882 (later shown in Green Lantern vol 3 #19 to both still exist post-crisis and be part of Hal Jordan's patrol) at the very least.
Seeing as this feat is:
1. From an experienced Green Lantern (Served for nearly 137 years)
2. A pretty clear limit for him (Took all of his might and he died from his wounds hours later), this should be a good baseline for what your "average" Lantern can do, supports Flodo and Driq, and the Earth Lanterns, especially the Four Corpsmen, should be able to replicate or exceed it since they're special.
Space Sectors, being 1/3600th of the universe should count as at least Galaxy level, and have had galaxies in them. For example, our sector (2814) contains the Milky Way Galaxy and Galaxy 882 (later shown in Green Lantern vol 3 #19 to both still exist post-crisis and be part of Hal Jordan's patrol) at the very least.
Seeing as this feat is:
1. From an experienced Green Lantern (Served for nearly 137 years)
2. A pretty clear limit for him (Took all of his might and he died from his wounds hours later), this should be a good baseline for what your "average" Lantern can do, supports Flodo and Driq, and the Earth Lanterns, especially the Four Corpsmen, should be able to replicate or exceed it since they're special.
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