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DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

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No, the same way causing an earthquake on earth doesn't make you planetary.
 
HigashikataJobin said:
Yeah but there's a diference between causing an earthquake on a planet and causing an earthquake on a whole dimension that have claims to be infinite in size
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Of course, but just as you can cause an earthquake on a finite section of Earth, you can do so in a dimension.

There's also this scan from Superman (2018) #2 which Superman says "I had no idea the Phantom Zone was big enough to fit a planet of seven billion." and this scan in which it is called "near infinite." So I think the size of the Phantom Zone is pretty inconsistent and I really don't think we should upgrade a character based on something that vague instead of more clear feats.
 
Deagonx said:
Of course, but just as you can cause an earthquake on a finite section of Earth, you can do so in a dimension.

There's also this scan from Superman (2018) #2 which Superman says "I had no idea the Phantom Zone was big enough to fit a planet of seven billion." and this scan in which it is called "near infinite." So I think the size of the Phantom Zone is pretty inconsistent and I really don't think we should upgrade a character based on something that vague instead of more clear feats.
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As Transcending said, is actually more inconsistent call it finite than infinite, because as I remember even in Pre-Crises Era it was already called infinite in size
 
Transcending said:
OP countered that.
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No he didn't. He responded to it, but he didn't counter it. There's a big difference.

Transcending said:
That seems to be an inconsistency, the Zone is more consistently infinite. I can show many scans of that.
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And I can show many scans saying it isn't. That's my point.

HigashikataJobin said:
As Transcending said, is actually more inconsistent call it finite than infinite, because as I remember even in Pre-Crises Era it was already called infinite in size
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If a realm is called infinite 8 times and not infinite 6 times, that doesn't mean we scale it as being infinite. This is in addition to the problem with scaling the vague earthquake statement at all.
 
Following, agree with the premise. 2-C to 2-A DC heralds have been a long time coming, and I rate this CRT as having the highest chances of success in a long time. I consider VS Battles Wiki's repeated failure to upgrade these characters beyond 4-B to be both amusing and annoying.
 
Deagonx said:
No he didn't. He responded to it, but he didn't counter it. There's a big difference.


And I can show many scans saying it isn't. That's my point.


If a realm is called infinite 8 times and not infinite 6 times, that doesn't mean we scale it as being infinite. This is in addition to the problem with scaling the vague earthquake statement at all.
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I mean it was stated his fight shook it plus he threatened to destroy it later on when bloodlusted, besides what did that run say on phantom zone size or any latest statement on it's size?
 
Vasco said:
I mean it was stated his fight shook it
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I can shake a bowling ball. I'd be hard pressed to destroy one.

Vasco said:
he threatened to destroy it later on when bloodlusted
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Yes, but that's all he did. He threatened.

Vasco said:
besides what did that run say on phantom zone size or any latest statement on it's size?
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No idea, but we have a scan as recent as 2018 directly indicating that it's not infinite.
 
Deagonx said:
Of course, but just as you can cause an earthquake on a finite section of Earth, you can do so in a dimension.
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Agreed. Unless it was specified that the entirety of an infinite space was shaken, it wouldn't scale to High 3-A.
 
Okay. I do not remember Superman punching Barbatos well though, and have blocked my access to comic book reading Internet sites.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
They're inside Mageddon's body so obviously it wasn't reaching the entire universe, and even then, they were at the epicenter of the thing. Even if it was just about his energy reserves, it wouldn't matter because it being self destruction would likely mean using up all of his energy reserves.
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I imagined the same when going over that, but the body has many opened places that lead to space in a way that invalidates that thought. +, did you forgot how its source of power inside the body blowing up would destroy half a galaxy? This means that the durability of Mageddon's body can't be higher than 4-A, the level of a feat that destroys it.

Use up all of his energy reserves is pointless as an argument if limitless is still a pool from where to draw from indefinitely, which is the standard assumption. The other points still stand.
Emirp sumitpo said:
Lois was talking referring to physical things being able to kill Supes, I don't know why she'd just bring up what was just a "mental illusion" as an example.
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That has nothing to do with what I said, idk why you say this in a vacuum replying to something that's not related, what's the purpose?
Emirp sumitpo said:
Death clearly wasn't being serious, given how he follows it with "Fine, go on believing that, if it gives you comfort"
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Well, your approach on how to take the story is wrong, and I need to say that this is for reasons that I take as basic. The real and clear mechanics of what's going on are not said in a way that can be indexed accurately, what we do get are poetic versions of it, by saying "Death clearly wasn't being serious" you imply "this doesn't matter", which is false, the info could be A) true or B) similar to what the truth of the matter is. If A is true, maybe Death doesn't know it, hence it follows up with a question of the mechanics going on. B being true can be the reason for Death to allow Supes to believe something close enough to the truth w/o just telling him that he's wrong. Based on all the mechanics said and implied we can give ourselves an idea of what the mechanics are while many interpretations of them are still up in the air, even Supes having abilities he doesn't have regularly on itself is reasonably something that shows the mechanics going on by showing Supes doing things he can't do regularly.
Emirp sumitpo said:
I think you're mistinterpreting the statement, as given how Death states that what happened before wasn't purely psychological, and that follows it with "But have you considered that there might be a place where mind and matter intersect", as well as also stating that "Where that hides in our dreams -- takes form?". Implying everything prior to be physical.
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We're reverting to binary again. You believe "everything prior to be physical" for 3 things
  • First Death doesn't state that what happened before wasn't purely psychological, he allows Supes to believe that and Supes believed so explicitly before in ways shown to us more than once while we can only imagine what caused him to believe that.
  • "a place where mind and matter intersect" and "that which hides in our dreams -- takes form?" doesn't necessarily imply it to be 100% physical. "Mind and matter intersect" imply a mix, something with parts of both things. That which hides in our dreams taking form can be anything as stuff that hides on dreams is super vague to the dreamer, even someone with Dream Manip can make it "take form" by just making it step forward a bit from hiding, showing its form. It doesn't need to be taken from the dream to the real world, being 100% physical.
But let's say it is 100% physical, ok, it's still implied to have dream-like rules and we know for a fact things like it's where mind and matter intersect and dreams taken form, so it would all still be dismissed for the same reasons as it would if it was a dream.
Emirp sumitpo said:
While you could just see the "Universe last moments" as in-context to entropy taking everything out, this is unlikely as we see this is when everything actually just goes blank. This clearly isn't any normal Black Hole either, as it has affected time, either making there no time at all (implying the space-time was destroyed) or merging all time together. Clark is still at the core of this dying sun for a while, and to return, he has to push through the barriers of space and time. Could be used to further imply space and time being gone.
Click to expand...
You are being very nonsensical in a way that you don't mind after that first sentence. It isn't unlikely as we don't see this is when everything actually just goes blank, we don't know what we see, it can be Supes being messed up by Death after the black hole collapsed, and even if that was everything going blank what about it? What makes entropy not the cause of that? Supes drifting in that place isn't the same as the black hole having turned the universe into it, it can easily be taken that the black hole collapsed way before the universe ended, before the visuals in this page came to be, since it's said to happen in the middle of it and Supes was yet to be affected in the following 2 pages that would cause him to be in that place, the orden being black hole collapses->Supes starts being affected by Death->Death BFRs Supes into that place, and the universe didn't even end yet, it was just on its last moments around that time. Alternatively, the black hole turned into a painful portal. You want to have your cake and eat it to by claiming that there is no time while also claiming that it merged all time and there is such things as barriers of space and time, that clearly shows that there is time. You have 0 reason to justify there being time when you claim it to be no time, your standards should have detected that & thought it to be something you cannot claim. The "or" is just as nonsensical, all time being merged together doesn't "further imply space and time being gone", you just say things that sound notable and claim massive unearned things from them, all time being merged together is harmless to time and space and a display of them existing, not being gone, people's so fine in there we even see someone smiling.
Emirp sumitpo said:
The Aegis is certainly not holding back, I mean he even tried to kill his own daughter here with no hesitation. He's not trying to gaslight, it is just the Aegis being in control.
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This is abysmally wrong. What I said the story shows is that "he's in variable control of his action(s)", that they fight for control, your proof of him "certainly not holding back":
  • he even tried to kill his own daughter here with no hesitation
When the evil man is in partial control he can do evil things while not necessarily at full potency. No hesitation=/=full potency. No hesitation=Enough control of the body to do that action when it happened.
Not what the scan shows:

"Get a grip on youself...": John is partially in control, hence this is aimed at him, this is a contradiction to how you say Aegis is in control.

Supes explains how John is being controlled: John's mental state most be cloudy, needing help and to put effort into avoid being controlled, hence being told that helps, by extension this info will help him have control, which is a contradiction to what you affirm.

Supes explains his evil actions: As before, John being in partial control must mean he doesn't know what he's doing unless told, bt it being him who does it is a contradiction to what you affirm.

"Nnngggggggnnn...": Aegis or John fight for control and are in pain due to it. Which is a contradiction to what you affirm.

"...Think John... ...Just take off the hel...": As before, with enough of a mental effort he will overcome this, having that much control and this almost work with John at least trying to make it work.

You were way over your head again, going back to binary again, assuming that Supes saying that Aegis is in control cuts the deal and wanting to have your cake & eat it too on the information clearly shown to make things not be 100% as that claim would sound in a vacuum. Please understand that your approach to this is very flawed, and please consider to pause things, try to improve that, and second to that whatever else. I can always give replies like this that explain what's wrong with this, but I also consider this to be basic enough to ideally not be worth existing as an exchange. If you agree that Aegis is only in partial control then don't you agree to that too?
Emirp sumitpo said:
We've addressed this before, but Nebula Man is a compressed universe. As far as him being a mini-Universe goes, well obviously yeah. No one argues he's literally Universal in size. The point is he's a compressed Universe, we know this since it's said he's a supermatter (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4), something like a Supersolid, which relates to condensed matter physics. This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult.
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Ok, that is something but it doesn't tell me anything.
Emirp sumitpo said:
Affecting space and time on a universal scale is blatantly Low 2-C.
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Not w/o doing it to a degree that would be = to a Low 2-C feat.
Emirp sumitpo said:
I'm not sure how it's just "conceptual things" when blatant things like shattered the boundaries of space and time, as well as the book stating they were bending reality.
Click to expand...
No those are the results of the "conceptual things", that can be measured as Space-Time Manip & Reality Warping, the conceptual things is what caused that to happened in a way that's not the same as just punching alone. Their idealologies needed to go up against each other on top of them punching each other.
Emirp sumitpo said:
Can you prove any of these forms are stronger than base Superman? Some of them like Blue Superman are actually weaker than normal Superman so I don't see how this changes anything.
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That's not the point, you assume that it's simply them being as strong as those Superman forms, they changing into many forms they had across time could mean anything, like alt. points in time for them coming into the point in time where they are now, with reality being so affected that the Supermen wouldn't be as capable as they are now. They can't for example change forms like that.
Emirp sumitpo said:
He only messes the multiverse only after the feat even happens. He wouldn't even be attacking GA Superman if that happened prior to the feat since GA Superman was on his side.
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No, he messed the multiverse before the fight, he messed up the universe for months, then he put both Earths in the same universe, then we don't see what he does as the fight happens, and then we see him mess up the mutiverse even more, you assume that since we saw the latter after the battle then it must mean that he did nothing in the battle, but that has no reason to be the case and 2 Earths being in the same universe already messes up the universes.
Emirp sumitpo said:
"that the Earths will become weaker and weaker as they're divided (Their current state), and if they aren't brought ack together soon the entire universe will explode in a new big bang & everything will be destroyed" is talking about something will happen, not something that has happened yet.
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Well, you are oblivious to how this unique state the universes are in is what allows the Supermen to do that. The universe doesn't go from perfectly fine to having a new big bang just like that, the consequences that build into that moment are everything shown to be happening that isn't normal. Logically including Supes' new powers as he's the key to all of this.

To be fair, this is slightly less clear than the feat with Death in the dream/not dream, and it takes common sense to understand it as it's not said outloud, but I would still call this easy to grasp once all the info is presented, which I did twice. Especially for those who read the comic, Supes' ideals did their feat and Alex & Prime didn't like the world of our Supes, wanting to make a perfect world, which will be pointless for me to say if you still agree with the feat.
Emirp sumitpo said:
The battery still connects to all rings and control of the battery gives control of them. Control of the green also gave Cyborg Supes control of the rings, and Hal has even fought this Cyborg.
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You can't just say things that sound notable and leave them at that, structure your reply well so that I know how does that even bounces off what I said that you quoted.

The first link is wrong, it's Eon that allows the little dude to control willpower, not the battery.

For the second link, update an image inside an album will cause a duplicate that needs to be erased. Control of all the rings=/=The AP of all the rings at once, that's like saying that mind controlling the human race will give one their combined AP. He can do things like shot them down, unable them to do certain things, make them do things against their user's will, etc. I will see how Hal fought him when proposed.
Emirp sumitpo said:
Tanking a portion of an infinite universe sized big bang would still be High 3-A, and Ganthet wasn't that far from the epicenter.
Click to expand...
A future comment I made has another thing to say on that feat that changes things completely.
Emirp sumitpo said:
I'll reply to the rest later.
Click to expand...
Please take your time.
Vasco said:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5417389
Said his okay with the rest(last message).
Click to expand...
Yes, I didn't agree to what this scan is used for.

----

On the whole Time Trapper - Superboy Prime thing, let's go over scaling after going over the feats, to a point where there is no more talking left for it.
 
Last edited:
Deagonx said:
I can shake a bowling ball. I'd be hard pressed to destroy one.
Click to expand...
Dimension ≠ bowling ball?
Deagonx said:
Yes, but that's all he did. He threatened.
Click to expand...
Statements count too
He shook the dimension in his battle(which could be flowery not gonna lie) then he later said he could destroy the dimension if he wishes but remembered his mama and papa and calmed down.
Deagonx said:
No idea, but we have a scan as recent as 2018 directly indicating that it's not infinite.
Click to expand...
Can I see it?

I will look for info in 2018 around that time on what the size of the Phantom zone is.
 
To be clear, I am neutral on the Tier 2 change. OP did make sense to me but I haven't read all the counter-arguments so I will do that before giving my opinion.
 
Robo said:
u said its implied to be infinite but ppl can imply things differently
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Sure, but pretty much everything is subjective. For the wiki's ratings however, when someone presents an argument, the opposition cannot just say 'I disagree with you, that's my opinion' or anything like that and would have to present a counter-argument. That's how the wiki indexes.

So someone else can read it and get a different interpretation, yes, but they would have to present that and explain why they have that interpretation. They can't simply say "I read it differently.

Hail lord Hippopotamus!
 
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