Transcending
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Wouldn't Superman causing earthquakes in the Phantom Zone itself mean something?
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DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade
- Thread starter Emirp sumitpo
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Yeah but there's a diference between causing an earthquake on a planet and causing an earthquake on a whole dimension that have claims to be infinite in size
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Of course, but just as you can cause an earthquake on a finite section of Earth, you can do so in a dimension.
There's also this scan from Superman (2018) #2 which Superman says "I had no idea the Phantom Zone was big enough to fit a planet of seven billion." and this scan in which it is called "near infinite." So I think the size of the Phantom Zone is pretty inconsistent and I really don't think we should upgrade a character based on something that vague instead of more clear feats.
Transcending
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OP countered that.
That seems to be an inconsistency, the Zone is more consistently infinite. I can show many scans of that.
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As Transcending said, is actually more inconsistent call it finite than infinite, because as I remember even in Pre-Crises Era it was already called infinite in size
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No he didn't. He responded to it, but he didn't counter it. There's a big difference.
And I can show many scans saying it isn't. That's my point.
If a realm is called infinite 8 times and not infinite 6 times, that doesn't mean we scale it as being infinite. This is in addition to the problem with scaling the vague earthquake statement at all.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Joke Battles
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Following, agree with the premise. 2-C to 2-A DC heralds have been a long time coming, and I rate this CRT as having the highest chances of success in a long time. I consider VS Battles Wiki's repeated failure to upgrade these characters beyond 4-B to be both amusing and annoying.
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I mean it was stated his fight shook it plus he threatened to destroy it later on when bloodlusted, besides what did that run say on phantom zone size or any latest statement on it's size?
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I can shake a bowling ball. I'd be hard pressed to destroy one.
Yes, but that's all he did. He threatened.
No idea, but we have a scan as recent as 2018 directly indicating that it's not infinite.
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Agreed. Unless it was specified that the entirety of an infinite space was shaken, it wouldn't scale to High 3-A.
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No idea. Like before, just give me the comic book where the feat happened and I can go looking for it.
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I imagined the same when going over that, but the body has many opened places that lead to space in a way that invalidates that thought. +, did you forgot how its source of power inside the body blowing up would destroy half a galaxy? This means that the durability of Mageddon's body can't be higher than 4-A, the level of a feat that destroys it.
Use up all of his energy reserves is pointless as an argument if limitless is still a pool from where to draw from indefinitely, which is the standard assumption. The other points still stand.
That has nothing to do with what I said, idk why you say this in a vacuum replying to something that's not related, what's the purpose?
Well, your approach on how to take the story is wrong, and I need to say that this is for reasons that I take as basic. The real and clear mechanics of what's going on are not said in a way that can be indexed accurately, what we do get are poetic versions of it, by saying "Death clearly wasn't being serious" you imply "this doesn't matter", which is false, the info could be A) true or B) similar to what the truth of the matter is. If A is true, maybe Death doesn't know it, hence it follows up with a question of the mechanics going on. B being true can be the reason for Death to allow Supes to believe something close enough to the truth w/o just telling him that he's wrong. Based on all the mechanics said and implied we can give ourselves an idea of what the mechanics are while many interpretations of them are still up in the air, even Supes having abilities he doesn't have regularly on itself is reasonably something that shows the mechanics going on by showing Supes doing things he can't do regularly.
We're reverting to binary again. You believe "everything prior to be physical" for 3 things
- First Death doesn't state that what happened before wasn't purely psychological, he allows Supes to believe that and Supes believed so explicitly before in ways shown to us more than once while we can only imagine what caused him to believe that.
- "a place where mind and matter intersect" and "that which hides in our dreams -- takes form?" doesn't necessarily imply it to be 100% physical. "Mind and matter intersect" imply a mix, something with parts of both things. That which hides in our dreams taking form can be anything as stuff that hides on dreams is super vague to the dreamer, even someone with Dream Manip can make it "take form" by just making it step forward a bit from hiding, showing its form. It doesn't need to be taken from the dream to the real world, being 100% physical.
You are being very nonsensical in a way that you don't mind after that first sentence. It isn't unlikely as we don't see this is when everything actually just goes blank, we don't know what we see, it can be Supes being messed up by Death after the black hole collapsed, and even if that was everything going blank what about it? What makes entropy not the cause of that? Supes drifting in that place isn't the same as the black hole having turned the universe into it, it can easily be taken that the black hole collapsed way before the universe ended, before the visuals in this page came to be, since it's said to happen in the middle of it and Supes was yet to be affected in the following 2 pages that would cause him to be in that place, the orden being black hole collapses->Supes starts being affected by Death->Death BFRs Supes into that place, and the universe didn't even end yet, it was just on its last moments around that time. Alternatively, the black hole turned into a painful portal. You want to have your cake and eat it to by claiming that there is no time while also claiming that it merged all time and there is such things as barriers of space and time, that clearly shows that there is time. You have 0 reason to justify there being time when you claim it to be no time, your standards should have detected that & thought it to be something you cannot claim. The "or" is just as nonsensical, all time being merged together doesn't "further imply space and time being gone", you just say things that sound notable and claim massive unearned things from them, all time being merged together is harmless to time and space and a display of them existing, not being gone, people's so fine in there we even see someone smiling.
This is abysmally wrong. What I said the story shows is that "he's in variable control of his action(s)", that they fight for control, your proof of him "certainly not holding back":
- he even tried to kill his own daughter here with no hesitation
Not what the scan shows:
"Get a grip on youself...": John is partially in control, hence this is aimed at him, this is a contradiction to how you say Aegis is in control.
Supes explains how John is being controlled: John's mental state most be cloudy, needing help and to put effort into avoid being controlled, hence being told that helps, by extension this info will help him have control, which is a contradiction to what you affirm.
Supes explains his evil actions: As before, John being in partial control must mean he doesn't know what he's doing unless told, bt it being him who does it is a contradiction to what you affirm.
"Nnngggggggnnn...": Aegis or John fight for control and are in pain due to it. Which is a contradiction to what you affirm.
"...Think John... ...Just take off the hel...": As before, with enough of a mental effort he will overcome this, having that much control and this almost work with John at least trying to make it work.
You were way over your head again, going back to binary again, assuming that Supes saying that Aegis is in control cuts the deal and wanting to have your cake & eat it too on the information clearly shown to make things not be 100% as that claim would sound in a vacuum. Please understand that your approach to this is very flawed, and please consider to pause things, try to improve that, and second to that whatever else. I can always give replies like this that explain what's wrong with this, but I also consider this to be basic enough to ideally not be worth existing as an exchange. If you agree that Aegis is only in partial control then don't you agree to that too?
Ok, that is something but it doesn't tell me anything.
Not w/o doing it to a degree that would be = to a Low 2-C feat.
No those are the results of the "conceptual things", that can be measured as Space-Time Manip & Reality Warping, the conceptual things is what caused that to happened in a way that's not the same as just punching alone. Their idealologies needed to go up against each other on top of them punching each other.
That's not the point, you assume that it's simply them being as strong as those Superman forms, they changing into many forms they had across time could mean anything, like alt. points in time for them coming into the point in time where they are now, with reality being so affected that the Supermen wouldn't be as capable as they are now. They can't for example change forms like that.
No, he messed the multiverse before the fight, he messed up the universe for months, then he put both Earths in the same universe, then we don't see what he does as the fight happens, and then we see him mess up the mutiverse even more, you assume that since we saw the latter after the battle then it must mean that he did nothing in the battle, but that has no reason to be the case and 2 Earths being in the same universe already messes up the universes.
Well, you are oblivious to how this unique state the universes are in is what allows the Supermen to do that. The universe doesn't go from perfectly fine to having a new big bang just like that, the consequences that build into that moment are everything shown to be happening that isn't normal. Logically including Supes' new powers as he's the key to all of this.
To be fair, this is slightly less clear than the feat with Death in the dream/not dream, and it takes common sense to understand it as it's not said outloud, but I would still call this easy to grasp once all the info is presented, which I did twice. Especially for those who read the comic, Supes' ideals did their feat and Alex & Prime didn't like the world of our Supes, wanting to make a perfect world, which will be pointless for me to say if you still agree with the feat.
You can't just say things that sound notable and leave them at that, structure your reply well so that I know how does that even bounces off what I said that you quoted.
The first link is wrong, it's Eon that allows the little dude to control willpower, not the battery.
For the second link, update an image inside an album will cause a duplicate that needs to be erased. Control of all the rings=/=The AP of all the rings at once, that's like saying that mind controlling the human race will give one their combined AP. He can do things like shot them down, unable them to do certain things, make them do things against their user's will, etc. I will see how Hal fought him when proposed.
A future comment I made has another thing to say on that feat that changes things completely.
Please take your time.
Yes, I didn't agree to what this scan is used for.
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On the whole Time Trapper - Superboy Prime thing, let's go over scaling after going over the feats, to a point where there is no more talking left for it.
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So what's the conclusion? Just a few scans were accepted or none were accepted?
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no conclusion yet
Transcending
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The heroes weakened Barbatos in Metal #6. Superman punched in Trinity Crisis
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Dimension ≠ bowling ball?
Statements count too
He shook the dimension in his battle(which could be flowery not gonna lie) then he later said he could destroy the dimension if he wishes but remembered his mama and papa and calmed down.
Can I see it?
I will look for info in 2018 around that time on what the size of the Phantom zone is.
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It was used to push High 3-A wally in the OP we just derailed on how it would scale to superman.
Barbados was chained up and superman simply knocked him out with a hit.
Transcending
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This doesn't prove it's infinite and some of the previous scans before it.
Transcending
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That's why I said it implies it, not proves it. And how does the previous scans not prove it?
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thats your implyingation tho
Transcending
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u said its implied to be infinite but ppl can imply things differently
Transcending
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To be clear, I am neutral on the Tier 2 change. OP did make sense to me but I haven't read all the counter-arguments so I will do that before giving my opinion.
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Sure, but pretty much everything is subjective. For the wiki's ratings however, when someone presents an argument, the opposition cannot just say 'I disagree with you, that's my opinion' or anything like that and would have to present a counter-argument. That's how the wiki indexes.
So someone else can read it and get a different interpretation, yes, but they would have to present that and explain why they have that interpretation. They can't simply say "I read it differently.
Hail lord Hippopotamus!
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Only two of these scans actually indicates infinite size, and they're from the same comic.
Transcending
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Why is limitless not infinite?
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I never said that?
Transcending
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Then how do those scans not indicate infinity?
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I didn't say that either. Christ.
Transcending
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You said only two of those scans actually indicate infinity. I am asking you what the problem with the others is.
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...that they don't indicate infinity? Bruh.
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Are you being intentionally obtuse? He's asking for a reason.
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No, is he? Are you? Read the scans. They literally don't. One of them says "infinitely compressed," two of them are from the same comic, and one of them just refers to it as a membrane.
Transcending
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...I am asking you why they don't indicate infinity
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Transcending
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It's a membrane between the Dark Multiverse and the Main Multiverse, both of which are infinite. So logically, it itself has to be infinite.
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