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To clarify, even if Where is Thy Sting were to be considered physical, the Black Hole Feat would only be Tier 4 because of the Heat Death.
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And the source wall seperates every universe and dimension as a barrier between them.If you have two infinite 4th-dimensional objects that are separated from each other, they would require a 5th-dimensional space to be separated against.
Simply being chained by it doesn't weaken him iirc it needs to used to attack him and it weakens his power not his durability.Chained up by the tenth metal, which is an extreme weakness for him?
Sometimes. But sometimes it's written that the universes share the same physical space and the same source wall surrounds all of them.And the source wall seperates every universe and dimension as a barrier between them.
Do you have scans that say this? I'm skeptical that it'd be in the comic.Simply being chained by it doesn't weaken him iirc it needs to used to attack him and it weakens his power not his durability.
Doesn't the map show them existing separately infact, anyways the source wall tier varies depending on the realm it is so understandable.Sometimes. But sometimes it's written that the universes share the same physical space and the same source wall surrounds all of them.
It's never stated he gets weakened just by being in contact with them some attacks even done by Nth metal or tenth metal only stunned him for a while after being damaged by them, chaining him up will possibly lower his power to do anything but not his durability since chaining someone doesn't lower their durability.Do you have scans that say this? I'm skeptical that it'd be in the comic.
Eh, yes but that could just he for visuals sake. I don't think DC fully abandoned the different frequency thing. But it isn't super important either way.Doesn't the map show them existing separately infact
I think the circumstances warrant skepticism towards using that featBesides I even doubt there's a statement that said tenth metal affects his power in a negative way only thing we know it can be used to harm him.
It would, shaking an infinite plane requires infinite energy, ergo, High 3-AWouldn't Superman causing earthquakes in the Phantom Zone itself mean something?
How do you interpret the universes vibrating in different frequencies phenomenon.Eh, yes but that could just he for visuals sake. I don't think DC fully abandoned the different frequency thing. But it isn't super important either way.
I would have called it an outlier but the thread dosen't make it seem that way and I'd have to agree with the feat cause one shoting a 2-C character should grant 2-C, the feat can be doubtful if Barbados was stated to be weakened from the chains then again I don't actually remember such statement.I think the circumstances warrant skepticism towards using that feat
Yeah, thought soIt would, shaking an infinite plane requires infinite energy, ergo, High 3-A
Tbh I am also uncertain about the Barbatos scaling. If Superman could just one-shot Barbatos like that, the original Metal wouldn't make sense.@Firestorm808
Can you add that I disagree with Superman scaling to Barbatos, if Barbatos was bound by tenth metal chains, and that destroying the Phantom Zone seems like unproven hyperbole to me, please?
Also, was it explicitly stated that Superman shook the entire Phantom Zone with a punch, or just a local area?
And Superboy-Prime still seemed to be all over the place in terms of power level, so I am uncertain about scaling to him.
Yes, agreed.Tbh I am also uncertain about the Barbatos scaling. If Superman could just one-shot Barbatos like that, the original Metal wouldn't make sense.
That doesn't seem specific enough for my taste regarding the exact scale involved.It was stated the Phantom Zone trembled under the weight of the fight and that every prisoner was alerted to the fight. That pretty clearly indicates the entire Zone was shook.
Well, the problem is that Geoff Johnns (who wrote the Legion of Three Worlds story) usually portrayed SBP as far less powerful than how other writers handled him during the Countdown event, in which he withstood a universe-destroying explosion.I honestly don't have much of a problem with the SBP scaling, I always found SPB overrated.
Yah this aligns with my thoughts, Superman beating Barbatos on his own is strange but the Phantom Zone and Prime stuff both kinda workTbh I am also uncertain about the Barbatos scaling. If Superman could just one-shot Barbatos like that, the original Metal wouldn't make sense.
It was stated the Phantom Zone trembled under the weight of the fight and that every prisoner was alerted to the fight. That pretty clearly indicates the entire Zone was shook.
I honestly don't have much of a problem with the SBP scaling, I always found SPB overrated.
DontTalkDT said:A "membrane" that separates two things can technically be up to one dimension lower than them. E.g. A line can separate a plane into a left and a right side (both of which could be infinite).
And a plane can separate two other planes in three-dimensional space, to give an example for a membrane of the same dimensionality. (e.g. a piece of paper between two other pieces of paper)
So the membrane definitely doesn't need to be higher dimensional.
Now, if there is a space that contains infinite construct A and infinite construct B, the case would be more debatable. (There are still some cases where even that isn't higher D, but it depends on details) But a membrane isn't (necessarily) such a space in itself, so that shouldn't matter here.
About that, how's the cosmology revision coming along? It's been nearly a week since the second thread was closed, but it's still pinned, and there isn't a third thread yet.At this point in time, we are still going through the Cosmology revision, and I'm unsure which items above intersect with that.
In any case, there are a lot of items to go over. Is it possible to break things up into sections for a more focused discussion? It would be preferable for the thread not to jump from different parts.
I'll be able to go over the items when I'm available.
Elizio is finishing a couple of improvements but has been delayed because he got sick.About that, how's the cosmology revision coming along? It's been nearly a week since the second thread was closed, but it's still pinned, and there isn't a third thread yet.
Give a screenshot.Regarding the Phantom Zone "membrane" matter, I talked with DT privately about it and he said this on the subject:
I mean, the explanation given makes sense. DT even said what I said about a background structure.Give a screenshot.
Isn't it part of the Sphere though?The Phantom Zone was never argued as anything more than Tier 2 in the OP so it ultimately doesn't matter for the revision.
The OP is using it to push High 3-A not higher since Superman could shake it in his battle and later on stated he can destroy the structure if he puts his mind to it.Isn't it part of the Sphere though?
We explained our reasoning in the OP in the phantom zone tabberIsn't it part of the Sphere though?
Yeah that's what I am also arguing for. I am just asking how the Phantom Zone itself is just Tier 2 if the Sphere if Low 1-C.The OP is using it to push High 3-A not higher since Superman could shake it in his battle and later on stated he can destroy the structure if he puts his mind to it.
Being part of the Sphere doesn't grant a tier.Isn't it part of the Sphere though?
The Phantom Zone likely isn't even necessarily Tier 2, but this is like asking how is a universe 3-A if the Multiverse that it's apart of is 2-A.I am just asking how the Phantom Zone itself is just Tier 2 if the Sphere if Low 1-C.
Being the same level of infinity as the Sphere is getting the same tier as the Sphere.Being part of the Sphere doesn't grant a tier
The spatial part of a Universe is 3-A, a universe also has a temporal part. The entirety of it would be Tier 2.The Phantom Zone likely isn't even necessarily Tier 2, but this is like asking how is a universe 3-A if the Multiverse that it's apart of is 2-A.
Being the same level of infinity as the Sphere is getting the same tier as the Sphere.
You've missed the point. A constituent part of a realm doesn't need to have the same tier as that realm.The spatial part of a Universe is 3-A, a universe also has a temporal part. The entirety of it would be Tier 2.
Elaborate?No. The Sphere is not homogenous the way you're
In this case it's because the Multiverse contains structures levels of infinites above the spatial part of the universe. The spatial part of the universe would take 0 space of the Multiverse.You've missed the point. A constituent part of a realm doesn't need to have the same tier as that realm.
When you find yourself typing the phrase "are you saying" I need you to stop in your tracks and just not ask, because every single time you've said that phrase it has been followed by an egregious strawman of what I am saying.In this case it's because the Multiverse contains structures levels of infinites above the spatial part of the universe. The spatial part of the universe would take 0 space of the Multiverse.
Are you saying the Phantom Zone takes zero space?
A constituent part of a realm doesn't need to have the same tier as that realm.
It's not an egregious straw man. If you are saying the Phantom Zone is not on the same tier as the SOG, you are saying it's one or more levels of infinites below the Sphere, in which case, it would take 0 space. I think the SOG is currently 6D, so if you are saying the Phantom Zone is Tier 2 or 3, you are saying it is 2-3 levels of infinities lower than the Sphere.When you find yourself typing the phrase "are you saying" I need you to stop in your tracks and just not ask, because every single time you've said that phrase it has been followed by
Firstly, we scale the Sphere to Low 1-C, not 1-C. Secondly, every realm in it would indeed be that tier, unless you are suggesting different realms are levels of infinities above or below each other?Even if we scale the Sphere as being 1-C, that does not mean that every realm within it is 1-C. In fact, being a realm within
That's not how that works at all, no.If you are saying the Phantom Zone is not on the same tier as the SOG, you are saying it's one or more levels of infinites below the Sphere, in which case, it would take 0 space.
The Sphere is often regarded as non-physical, so many of the realms in it don't have dimensionality at all. Of the ones that are physical, they are usually portrayed as basic three dimensional spaces.I think the SOG is currently 6D
In the absence of concrete evidence that dictates that they'd all be the same tier, we cannot assume that without actual evidence.Secondly, every realm in it would indeed be that tier, unless you are suggesting different realms are levels of infinities above or below each other?
It literally is.That's not how that works at all,
Non-physical doesn't mean anything, by that logic the Tiering System doesn't apply to any incorporeal being. And the 3-dimensional realms aren't accepted by the wiki.The Sphere is often regarded as non-physical, so many of the realms in it don't have dimensionality at all. Of the ones that are physical, they are usually portrayed as basic three dimensional spaces.
The evidence is that the Phantom Zone isn't 2 or 3 levels of infinities below the Sphere and doesn't take 0 space.In the absence of concrete evidence that dictates that they'd all be the same tier, we cannot assume that without actual evidence.
No, it's not. The Phantom Zone doesn't need to be the same tier as the Sphere in order for it to "take space," particularly since such a concept doesn't even apply to the Sphere.It literally is.
The evidence is that the Phantom Zone isn't 2 or 3 levels of infinities below the Sphere and doesn't take 0 space.
I can verify. It was during a private discussion.Give a screenshot.
Why wouldn't it apply to the Sphere?No, it's not. The Phantom Zone doesn't need to be the same tier as the Sphere in order for it to "take space," particularly since such a concept doesn't even apply to the Sphere.
Because the Phantom Zone is an entire realm of the Sphere.What evidence is there that it "isn't 2 or 3 levels of infinity below the Sphere?" It sounds like all of this is based on pure assumption and this incoherent notion that it "would take 0 space" without being Tier 1.
Lacking time doesn't mean you are 3-A or High 3-A, something transcending time also lacks time.it's not even clear if it's infinite in size, and it lacks time, which means it is either 3-A or High 3-A if it's
Because the Sphere is not itself a physical realm that "contains" the realms within it in a physical way. The Phantom Zone doesn't "take up" the Sphere's space, it can't.Why wouldn't it apply to the Sphere?
I'm aware. That isn't evidence of anything other than where the Phantom Zone is. It tells us nothing about it's properties or tier.Because the Phantom Zone is an entire realm of the Sphere.
No shit. I'm saying it would be 3-A or High 3-A because it lacks time in addition to being a three-dimensional space that is possibly not infinite.Lacking time doesn't mean you are 3-A or High 3-A, something transcending time also lacks time.
I am aware that the Zone is outside time, that's my point. If it's just a non-temporal three-dimensional realm, then it's either 3-A or High 3-A depending on if it can reliably be confirmed as infinite in space.Going by our current tiering, the Zone is considered to be beyond normal time rather than being limited by it
Because the Sphere is not itself a physical realm that "contains" the realms within it in a physical way. The Phantom Zone doesn't "take up" the Sphere's space, it can't.
I'm just gonna say Metaphysical realms can be higher dimensional also but let's not derail since OP proposed tier 3.
Non-physical doesn't mean anything, by that logic the Tiering System doesn't apply to any incorporeal being. And the 3-dimensional realms aren't accepted by the wiki.
It tells us that the Phantom Zone occupies space.I'm aware. That isn't evidence of anything other than where the Phantom Zone is. It tells us nothing about it's properties or tier.
Why is it 3-dimensional? That goes against our current standards.No shit. I'm saying it would be 3-A or High 3-A because it lacks time in addition to being a three-dimensional space that is possibly not infinite.
Refer above.I am aware that the Zone is outside time, that's my point. If it's just a non-temporal three-dimensional realm, then it's either 3-A or High 3-A depending on if it can reliably be confirmed as infinite in space.