The map is not literal.
That contradicts a lot of what we know, but even if this were true, it would simply disprove that Heaven encompasses the multiverse as Heaven does not encompass new genesis.
None of these speak to infinite transcendence, though.
He says it because Ghast tries to reach the Etrigan Rank, the rhyming demons, speak with poetic words as a sign of power and status, and at no time he is the Narrator, also the Narrator is gives a detailed form about how are heaven and hell, the demons ask what is the reason why Neron allied with an Angel, something that doesn't really make sense and the goals of both had to be explained more thoroughly in Paradise Lost
Fair
MMH doesn't know what's really going on (he literally ask to Zauriel), although I understand your point, MMH is seeing this as nonsense since this is from their point of view an invasion of "conquerors and masterrace" full of confidences and superiority, but that they will fall since they do not follow the orders of others.
Does you refer to some points that I did not answer? It wasn't because i ignore you, I just agreed with you, I just thought that not saying it was more than enough to show that I agree with you.
I don't see why that part shouldn't be taken literally.
New Genesis shouldn't be vastly above Heaven, so Heaven can scale to it.
The book thing implies a R>f and combined with it being a higher vibratory world, a higher order of reality, and its beings needing to convert to flesh and lower their power to access the lower realms, I think we have sufficient evidence to conclude a transcendence.
Yes, was written by Morrison
Because the authors have literally said not to.
That's a complete assumption, and again, based on information that drastically contradicts the greater cosmology.
Not without further evidence, no.
Do we have knowledge that suggests every realm in the Sphere is greater than or equal to the bleed? That seems like quite an assumption. The realms of the Sphere are just the manifestation of the multiverse's belief system. I don't see a reason why mankind couldn't manifest a religious belief lower than 1-C or a realm that isn't necessarily greater than the Bleed.
The Map of the Multiverse makes it quite clear that there is a clear difference between the Bleed and the higher dimensions, i.e. the sphere of Gods.
I'm familiar with the map and the delineation between sections of it, yes.
Yes. I'm aware that Heaven and Hell are in the Sphere, obviously.
Iirc only about Destiny being at the top.
Are you saying New Genesis has a qualitative superiority over Heaven despite existing in the same Sphere?
It might not be enough for a definite confirmation, which is why I provided two more evidences. Those should be enough.
No, they have explained that the realms do not have literal spatial positioning relative to eachother as the map would imply, it's simply a visual aid.
No, I am saying that scaling New Genesis and Heaven as equals is an assertion that should be backed with evidence beyond "they're both in the Sphere."
The other pieces of evidence likewise do not address the idea of infinite transcendence. 3 incomplete pieces of evidence do not create 1 complete piece of evidence. They all, individually, address a vague notion of superiority, but superiority and infinite transcendence are very very different things.
Why? What you said was that the map shows there is a difference. What I said was there's no evidence every realm in the Sphere is greater than the Bleed. What's contradictory about that?
I don't disagree, but can you show this for reference?
From my interview with Scott Snyder
Though he seemed gigantic, eventually, Darkseid fell on a single universe only (Mandrakk saying the dying god (Darkseid) has left the universe. Darkseid was stated to have fallen on the base of the Orrery which is New Earth etc ) which is the New Earth universe. Darkseids Fall did not damage the entire Orrery, we only know that it caused cracks across the New Earth reality.
That's literally me, dude.
They indeed aren't necessarily canon. But nothing about the map suggests it should be taken literally as a physical map regardless. Authors can help inform what we already have on the page. In the context of many Grant Morrison interviews, however, people use them to add things that are completely absent from the story.
No, it isn't. My question was about the 6th Dimension, but the quote I referenced was indeed about the map itself.
It doesn't, nor was it used for that purpose.
Proof?
But the cosmogram of DC we call its "Map of the Multiverse" literally describes itself anyway, and depicts/describes the Sphere of the Gods and its worlds as higher vibratory realms above and beyond the Bleedspace, which was agreed by consensus to be 5-D/Low 1-C.
And that part was contextualized with "there really isn't a way to do a map when you're talking about a realm that's beyond imagination". Scott Snyder isn't talking about the "map" itself, he's talking about the "Sixth Dimension" in relation to the map.
Okay, so what's the problem then? There's no reason for the Hal Jordan Spectre to not be at least Low 1-C, as far as I'm concerned.
Short of creating an audio recording showing you that it's my voice, not sure how I would. It doesn't matter if you believe me or not, so I'm not going to go to the trouble.
Yes, but that doesn't necessitate that the proportions and locations are literal. The authors don't see it that way, it doesn't make sense to view it that way, ergo, that's it.
Being outside the Bleed space should not, by default, be considered 1-C. The basis for Bleedspace being that high is 5 dimensions. Yet many of the realms in the Sphere are considered conceptual/metaphysical. Therefore they cannot scale to a physical construct.
Grant Morrison said it himself. Are you saying his own opinion of his own map is incoherent and nonsensical? He literally explained it.
The problem is that the only evidence provided so far is "Heaven is outside the Bleed so it's Low 1-C" which is a non sequitur, and "the Sphere encompasses the multiverse therefore realms within it are Low 1-C" which is a non sequitur
I will be on board. I have my reservations and personal opinions and have made them clear, but I don't intend to cause a scene when the revisions start.
If SOG will be passed as Low 1-C anyway then why try downgrade it now? Makes no sense.
Then why even claim that it's you, if you're not actually going to verify it?
I think you're missing the point here. The Fourth World, the afterlife, the dreamworlds, and the mythic realms are depicted as being on the same general level of existence (the Sphere of the Gods), irrespective of whether they are literally physically next to each other or not. That's the whole point.
You're misinterpreting the statement. The map itself is just a 2-D cosmogram. It's literally just circles within circles. Anyone can visualize it after looking at it for ten seconds at most. There's also the fact that the Map of the Multiverse contains the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds, structures that are literally "spatial or time based" in any comic they're mentioned or depicted in, which make such an interpretation of Grant Morrison's statement (as relayed by Scott Snyder) doubly absurd.
So what's the holdup on allowing the Hal Jordan Spectre to be given a Low 1-C rating again?
You are saying, why tell the truth that a video I created is mine, if I am not willing to create a separate voice recording to authenticate it? Because it's the truth.
"General level of existence" is a very vague notion and does not guarantee that every realm in the Sphere is equal to each other. That's a massive assumption with little to no evidence besides your intuition.
No, I'm not. You are performing mental gymnastics to deny what was literally told to us. I asked Scott about placing a realm in relation to the map, and the very first caveat he gave me -- direct from Grant Morrison -- was that placing things on the map is a pain because none of it is spatial or time based.
No he wasn't. The quote from Grant had nothing to do with the Sixth Dimension. Literally just read the quote.
Antvasima did not address any of my arguments.
Just the small itsy bitsy detail that there's no evidence for it. Sandman demonstrated with the Asmodel scans that the logical basis was lacking. No one has even explained how or why Spectre would scale to the entirety of heaven even if it actually was Low 1-C, et cetera.
because hell is equal to heaven in size, Specter managed to affect all areas of it
How is Hell being equated in size to Heaven?
Okay, but putting out a multiverse-sized fire and actually destroying an infinite multiverse are two very different things. I don't think he should be Low 1-C simply for "affecting" all of Hell.
