DC Comics - Spectre Low 1-C AP Proposal

[Armorchompy]

To me it sounded more like he was ordering them to. "Devils, it is our time. Follow the fire."

I am not completely opposed to the idea that controlling the fire could in turn control demons, but I interpreted this more as an uprising than Spectre literally taking control of all demons via the fire. I suppose it isn't super important one way or the other, as I don't think either interpretation would speak to scaling to Hell

I think the fact that he specifically describes it as a fuel right beforehand implies it's playing a more active role in the demons being controlled.

I'm not saying it's necessarily an empty boast, but I lean against using statements like that as they have been proven wrong in the past.

I'm not sure how you'd ever prove this one wrong to begin with, you can't really compare it to unrelated cases. And context matters, Spectre clearly knows what he's doing and everyone treats him as a legitimate threat so I don't really think we can get cold feet about considering the statement useless in a vacuum. That said:

What's further, he seems to be leading an army of demons.

Spectre: "Damned souls, demons, it is our time. Follow the fire, follow me." "Onward, soldiers! I will have my vengeance."

So I would be inclined to interpret this as him saying he's going to lead all the demons and destroy Earth and Heaven. Similar to when the Lilim invaded the Silver City in Lucifer (2000)

So with that said, my opinion is that this scan alone shouldn't be used to say "The Spectre can destroy the entire realm of Heaven with his power" given the context.

This may have some validity, razing a place with an army does still count as destroying it, I'm not sure if the comic run does bring validity to that but still.

 

[Deagonx]

I think the fact that he specifically describes it as a fuel right beforehand implies it's playing a more active role in the demons being controlled.

I see. So the way I saw it, he says "The hellfire made up of the first souls damned to the underworld. The fuel of pain, suffering, and hopelessness is a strong fuel indeed."

I interpreted that as him saying the pain and suffering of the first damned souls was a strong fuel for the fires of hell. I didnt necessarily connect it to the idea of leading/controlling the demons, but I see what you mean.

I'm not sure how you'd ever prove this one wrong to begin with, you can't really compare it to unrelated cases. And context matters, Spectre clearly knows what he's doing and everyone treats him as a legitimate threat so I don't really think we can get cold feet about considering the statement useless in a vacuum. That said:

I get that, however, I think taking a threat seriously doesn't always mean that person can win. If Spectre couldn't destroy Heaven, he could still hurt a lot of people and do a lot of damage, and that warrants concern. But I see where you are coming from.

This may have some validity, razing a place with an army does still count as destroying it, I'm not sure if the comic run does bring validity to that but still.

I think in the context of destroying a metaphysical realm, it is an important distinction if he's actually leading an army of demons to slaughter the population of the Silver City or something like that. I just personally wouldn't be willing to tier a being as being Complex Multiversal from that alone.

 

[Confluctor]

think in the context of destroying a metaphysical realm, it is an important distinction if he's actually leading an army of demons to slaughter the population of the Silver City or something like that. I just personally wouldn't be willing to tier a being as being Complex Multiversal from that alone.

The demons are for earthly plane only. He never once implied he needed them for the higher planes. He brought them down to the lower ones and that's it. I believe the reason is because Spectre knew the heroes would try and stop him.

 

[Deagonx]

The demons are for earthly plane only. He never once implied he needed them for the higher planes. He brought them down to the lower ones and that's it. I believe the reason is because Spectre knew the heroes would try and stop him.

In this scan as the first demon pops out of the ground he says "Let our battle to Heaven begin"

 

[Confluctor]

The demon can say whatever he wants, Spectre not so much.

 

[Confluctor]

Actually, I went and checked again. Knew something was off. But noticed, this is Etrigan talking. He isn't being controlled by Spectre at all.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/3QyMAdpDMaiGA6wkG0kXFKcUw5xEKX8FwKWThefi9_eWp5jDmOKiQG7_5QBQ54mGq36Mlb0Ms3I=s0?rhlupa=ODYuOC41LjE5Ng&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwMi4wLjUwMDUuMTQxIFdoYWxlLzMuMTUuMTM2LjI5IFNhZmFyaS81MzcuMzY=

 

[Deagonx]

Okay, but clearly one of the Demons participating in this assault considered it their "battle to Heaven." It's clear that Spectre's demon uprising was towards Heaven, not just Earth.

 

[Confluctor]

.......................................What?

 

[Deagonx]

What part of it confuses you? Etrigan, part of the demon horde attacking earth, said it was a battle to heaven. I don't know why we'd assume he was mistaken.

Also, the other Etrigan scan shows that after Spectre leaves with the fires of Hell all that has changed is that it's snowing. So he managed to change the weather in Hell.

Later in the comic it explains that the fires are literally the first souls damned to Hell. So on that note, I don't think being able to control the energy of the first damned souls should scale you ro all of Hell.

Which means all we are left with is a single statement, not a feat, that Spectre wants to destroy Heaven, and he's bringing a demon army.

I think it's clear the evidence provided doesn't support scaling.

 

[Confluctor]

.... I am going to ask, have you even read the comic? If not, please say so. Because holy shit, this is a whole bunch of wrongs that literally came out of nowhere.


Seriously, how far are you going to go to make stuff up to disqualify legit feats? I really want to know.

 

[Deagonx]

Confluctor. If your back is so far against the wall that you have nothing left but insults, maybe it's time to bow out and admit your first impression was mistaken.

If you have any valid arguments against what I've said I'll hear them out, but my final assessment is that making hell snow and verbally threatening to destroy Heaven with a demon army isn't enough for 1-C

 

[Confluctor]

That's not an insult, please.

And there is literally nothing to debunk. You are making stuff out of nowhere. So, I am going to ask once again, and hopefully for the last time, are you even familiar with the story?

 

[Deagonx]

So, I am going to ask once again, and hopefully for the last time, are you even familiar with the story?

Yes, everything I said in that comment came directly from the scans in this thread.

Etrigan, part of the demon horde attacking earth, said it was a battle to heaven.

The other Etrigan scan shows that after Spectre leaves with the fires of Hell all that has changed is that it's snowing.

Later in the comic it explains that the fires are literally the first souls damned to Hell.

Which means all we are left with is a single statement, not a feat, that Spectre wants to destroy Heaven, and he's bringing a demon army.

You are making stuff out of nowhere.

Tell me exactly what I made up.

Meanwhile, you actually made this up and have no evidence for it:

Controlling fire of hell means complete control over hell, it's soul, the demons, etc, etc.

 

[Kuuzo7]

Interesting thread.

 

[Kuuzo7]

The only slight issue I have on the relationship between Hell and the fires that fill it is the following statement by Zatanna, describing the latter as:

The fundamental binding energy of the Nether Realm

This would be an evidence supporting the case that the fires of hell are an intrinsic part of it, whch enabled the Spectre to affect the place itself until everything in hell returns to its initial state by reigniting its fires through natural, but mostly metaphysical process.

Of course. The spark to ingite Hell. It required an act of true evil, murder.

Causing the Spectre to lose its control over the demons once Hell was finally reignited as shown and stated in the next scan.

The demons are being sucked back to the underworld...

As to whether the fires of Hell also reach the residents there, this seems to be the case to a certain extent as Neron was as well in a freezing state once the Spectre took posession of hellfire. However, other residents were shown continuing their function, such as Cerberus.

So it clearly seems to be not a side-effect like depriving Hell of its fires, but an ability that one can induce to Hell's residents. In any case, @Deagonx is factually right on any other point, notably the Spectre's statement on Heaven (even though a case can be made based on other comics).

 

[Deagonx]

Thanks Kuuzo. I think the "being sucked back into the underworld" scan disproves an earlier claim that Spectre was mind controlling the demons. It's clear that the fires of hell were part of what kept the demons trapped there and they were simply eager to wreak havoc when they had a chance hence one of them saying "just a little more time."

It's clear that controlling the hellfire is quite a feat. I stand by my overall assessment though that it isn't enough to say Spectre can destroy Hell itself since Hell is intact (albeit frozen) without the fires

 

[Kuuzo7]

I understand your position, there is nothing wrong with it overall and especially nothing to argue about.

I also agree with you on your last point regarding the Spectre's performance in that specific storyline.

The only things I have to say are about minors details, specifically related to whether the Spectre can destroy Heaven/Hell using other comics, but it would be better to wait for the upcoming revision of the DC cosmology which will change everything.

 

[Deagonx]

Agreed

 

[Antvasima]

What are the exact disagreements here?

Also, Deagonx, Confluctor is usually very helpful and reliable.

 

[Deagonx]

Also, Deagonx, Confluctor is usually very helpful and reliable.

I understand, and that has been my experience as well. However for some reason in this thread he has avoided explaining his points or really engaging with mine.

What are the exact disagreements here?

There are two primary points being considered to upgrade to Low 1-C

Spectre took control of the fires of hell

They have argued that this functionally scales him to hell. However, I do not think that is true. The comics explain that the fires are literally the first souls damned to hell and when he literally removed the fires from hell, it was cold and snowing. This is clearly an impressive feat, but I do not believe making hell cold or removing the first damned souls means you can literally destroy the Low 1-C structure of Hell itself.

Spectre said he was going to destroy Heaven

I personally don't believe that threats alone should be used to upgrade. Especially because in the comic it is shown he is leading the demons out of hell in an uprising that one of the demons calls our battle to heaven which probably means he is leading an army of demons to destroy Heaven.

Those factors in mind, it is my opinion that the evidence isn't clearly in support of Low 1-C. It's too vague.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will ask for further input about this.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @Planck69 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Alonik @The_Impress

Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-spectre-low-1-c-ap-proposal.139582/post-4965590

 

[Transcending]

Especially because in the comic it is shown he is leading the demons out of hell in an uprising that one of the demons calls our battle to heaven which probably means he is leading an army of demons to destroy Heaven.

I mean even if he has an army, it would still mean he himself can deal great damage, which should be enough to scale.

 

[Deagonx]

I mean even if he has an army, it would still mean he himself can deal great damage, which should be enough to scale.

Personally, I do not think a villain claiming that he will destroy a place is enough to scale.

 

[Transcending]

Personally, I do not think a villain claiming that he will destroy a place is enough to scale.

I think it depends on the context. About Spectre being able to destroy Heaven, there's another scan though I don't remember the context around it, but you might:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTnEhvMoeYiCQIDR18iIdcCxOVaKOIskSdnfA&usqp=CAU

 

[Kuuzo7]

I think it depends on the context. About Spectre being able to destroy Heaven, there's another scan though I don't remember the context around it, but you might:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTnEhvMoeYiCQIDR18iIdcCxOVaKOIskSdnfA&usqp=CAU

This scan cleraly refers to the events from Day of Judgment.

 

[Transcending]

This scan cleraly refers to the events from Day of Judgment.

Then I think there's enough evidence of Spectre scaling to Heaven.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Okay. I will ask for further input about this.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @Planck69 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Alonik @The_Impress

Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-spectre-low-1-c-ap-proposal.139582/post-4965590

I would wait for a response from Confluctor if he has any.

But I'm personally neutral. Deagon did bring up some good points.

 

[Kuuzo7]

Then I think there's enough evidence of Spectre scaling to Heaven.

Not based on this scan which does not accurately reflect what actually happened, but the overall picture, since the Spectre did not tear down "Heaven, Hell, and everthing in between" during Day of Judgment, but had the intention to do so. Only Hell and Earth, to even a lesser degree than the former, have been impacted. Let's not even talk about Heaven.

In any cause, using this scan as evidence does not resolve anything as it lead backs to the same issue about the Spectre not being alone on its way to destroy Heaven during that specific storyline.

 

[Transcending]

Not based on this scan which does not accurately reflect what actually happened, but the overall picture, since the Spectre did not tear down "Heaven, Hell, and everthing in between" during Day of Judgment, but had the intention to do so. Only Hell and Earth, to even a lesser degree than the former, have been impacted. Let's not even talk about Heaven.

1: It was never stated Spectre tore down Heaven, Hell, and everything in between in the scan.

2: How do you know the scan is referring to Day of Judgement?

In any cause, using this scan as evidence does not resolve anything as it lead backs to the same issue about the Spectre not being alone on its way to destroy Heaven during that specific storyline.

I already addressed this before.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that the Day of Judgement miniseries ended with Hal Jordan becoming the new Spectre, and that the scan in question happened right after that, so it seems extremely unlikely that it referred to anything else.

 

[Kuuzo7]

1: It was never stated Spectre tore down Heaven, Hell, and everything in between in the scan.

"From tearing down" to be more exact, as stated by Superman, but clearly, like I've said, it's an overall picture of the events as only Hell and Earth were concerned, not Heaven.

2: How do you know the scan is referring to Day of Judgement?

It's even a genuine question? There are no other instances in which the Spectre was himself the main actor in a conflict/war agaisnt Heaven, Hell and Earth. In addition that Superman was as well involved during that event. So it makes sense for Superman to refer to an event in which he and the Spectre shared.

I already addressed this before.

I will address it.

 

[Deagonx]

1: It was never stated Spectre tore down Heaven, Hell, and everything in between in the scan.

That's kind of the point. Superman vaguely echoing the threat that Spectre made isn't good evidence that it was true. It isn't as though Post Crisis Superman has a great intimation of what it takes to destroy Heaven.

2: How do you know the scan is referring to Day of Judgement?

See above. They say "If Hal Jordan is the new Spectre, then who is this?" Hal became the Spectre after Day of Vengeance.

 

[Transcending]

I think that the Day of Judgement miniseries ended with Hal Jordan becoming the new Spectre, and that the scan in question happened right after that, so it seems extremely unlikely that it referred to anything else.

Ok.

"From tearing down" to be more exact, as stated by Superman, but clearly, like I've said, it's an overall picture of the events as only Hell and Earth were concerned, not Heaven.

Well considering Superman said they prevented Spectre from tearing down Heaven, and Spectre had the intension of destroying Heaven, the point still stands. They prevented Spectre from starting in the first place?

 

[Transcending]

That's kind of the point. Superman vaguely echoing the threat that Spectre made isn't good evidence that it was true. It isn't as though Post Crisis Superman has a great intimation of what it takes to destroy Heaven.

That's fair, I am just saying that two statements increases the credibility of Spectre being able to destroy Heaven.

 

[Deagonx]

Well, I think we've said all there is to say on the subject. I suppose it comes down to a matter of a opinion on whether those statements by themselves are enough for a tier upgrade.

 

[Transcending]

Well considering Superman said they prevented Spectre from tearing down Heaven, and Spectre had the intension of destroying Heaven, the point still stands. They prevented Spectre from starting in the first place?

Also Hell should scale to Heaven regardless.

 

[Antvasima]

Which characters stated what exactly, and how knowledgeable and reliable are they as gauges?

 

[Transcending]

Well, I think we've said all there is to say on the subject. I suppose it comes down to a matter of a opinion on whether those statements by themselves are enough for a tier upgrade.

Yeah, let's leave this to the community.

 

[Deagonx]

Which characters stated what exactly, and how knowledgeable and reliable are they as gauges?

Spectre (possessed by Asmodel) proclaimed "Nothing will stand in my way to annihilate Heaven" and later, Superman recalling the event says "We just stopped one berserk Spectre from tearing down Heaven, Hell, and everything in between, I hope we don't have to go for two."

Asmodel gets defeated before he reaches Heaven, however. He talks a lot in the comic about burning the world that the Presence made in his image, and making him watch.

I tend to be cautious against believing villains saying they can do something, so that is why I feel how I do.

 

[Transcending]

Also I found some more proof of Spectre scaling to Heaven/Hell:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/901918619758370839/1004811836371243019/Screenshot_20220804-233157__01.jpg