DC Comics - Animal Man Cosmology Determination

[Deagonx]

That's a valid opinion, but perhaps that conversation is best held elsewhere. We are all really getting off topic.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry, but that is extremely wrong, battleboarding is inherently subjective and people can always disagree. I haven't seen the evidence itself so I can't make any claims on whether I would agree or not but to pre-emptively accuse anyone else who does disagree of bias is unacceptable.

Yes, agreed. My apologies about that. I am in a very annoyed mood due to being stressed out due to being forced to argue here when I have lots of other important tasks to do both IRL and online.

 

[Armorchompy]

That's a valid opinion, but perhaps that conversation is best held elsewhere. We are all really getting off topic.

Right, true. Still let's keep this open, in my opinion.

 

[Antvasima]

That's a valid opinion, but perhaps that conversation is best held elsewhere. We are all really getting off topic.

Agreed, and I REALLY don't have the time to engage in this distraction much further.

 

[Pikaman]

I’m fine with postponing this thread for a few months, it gives time for the cosmology revisions and gives Ultima extra time to reply. I disagree with closing the thread, but a self imposed hiatus, with an allowance for new and/or important information being posted if necessary, seems about right

 

[Hellsing]

Is DC like getting seperated into different cosmologies??

 

[Antvasima]

Is DC like getting seperated into different cosmologies??

Well, sort of. Only the most major ones that have important contradictions. We do not intend to downgrade the verse to an extreme degree, just keep different versions that have very little to do with each other separate, especially characters that are only relevant to a single cosmology, so we do not apply very unreliable extreme chain-scaling in this regard.

 

[Antvasima]

I’m fine with postponing this thread for a few months, it gives time for the cosmology revisions and gives Ultima extra time to reply. I disagree with closing the thread, but a self imposed hiatus, with an allowance for new and/or important information being posted if necessary, seems about right

Well, we have basically finished with our preparations, except for that we would prefer if @Sandman31 becomes active again and help us out with a final lookthrough, and that we need to reach a new agreement with Ultima, as he suddenly decided to go against the compromise solution that we reached and agreed about with him previously.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I only want to postpone this thread until we are done with the main cosmology revision for this verse, yes. If somebody bookmarks this thread and messages me about reopening it afterwards, I will do so.

 

[Darksmash]

Trust this trust that have y'all ever tried reading scans and coming to your own conclusions by thinking for yourself? How about trusting your own brain.

 

[Antvasima]

Trust this trust that have y'all ever tried reading scans and coming to your own conclusions by thinking for yourself? How about trusting your own brain.

Good point, but many of us just don't have the time available to read and analyse absolutely everything indepth in every thread we participate in.

 

[Darksmash]

Good point, but many of us just don't have the time available to read and analyse absolutely everything indepth in every thread we participate in.

It's fine to moderate over threads even if you didn't read the arguments but if you want your opinion to be counted it should be independently formed instead of going by who you "trust" more imo.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, in my case I do read the arguments in the threads I am more invested in, but there are limits to how much time I can spend evaluating them.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Again, Ultima is highly intelligent, but he is also very young, and I have an impression that he seems far too lenient with assigning extreme tiers sometimes. In addition, he has also been very busy IRL recently.

Im sorry Ant but this applies to you.

It might not be clear to you, but it's clear to everyone else that you are simply letting your own, uniformed biases get in the way of progress. This is not productive to the site and does not reflect well on its content. Several people who read the run and others who are familiar with the source material all came to similar conclusion, why are they not listened too?

 

[Malomtek]

Just a note that this is only true for works that are owned or at least permanently completely creatively controlled by the authors themselves. If it is company-owned shared patchwork settings properties, many hundreds of different writers have tens of thousands of very conflicting ideas about said settings and their characters, the vast majority of which were never officially accepted to be applied by the company executives, so what you are saying in this case is just not accurate, and not how we do or should do things.

If we don't use published interviews for tiering in comics, this must be news to me, and probably a lot of other people too, since they were used for better understanding Mandrakk/Cosmic Armor Superman, Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, the denizens of the Fourth World, the Source, and several other concepts in comics generally. Hell, we even use interview statements and one Marvel editor's Tumblr blog for our comic book scaling rules page.

This new rule, put bluntly, sounds like something you just completely made up on the spot to stop Animal Man from getting "too high" a tier.

Anyway, @Malomtek , which of the higher levels of reality that you are talking about are a part of what Morrison himself established, and which of them are parts of the works of other writers?

Animal Man is a single comic book line, with no interruptions in continuity or anything like that, so trying to rigidly separate between what Morrison does with it and what other writers do with it is a frankly asinine thing to do.

But other than that, the return of the pre-Crisis multiverse (because of Psycho Pirate's memories, in Animal Man #24), the implicate/explicate order, the Great Light, and Comic Book Limbo are all things Grant Morrison directly introduced into Animal Man.

Grant Morrison was writing or involved in the entire Animal Man comic book line up to #26, just so we're clear here.

In addition, what tiers do you think should be applied based on what Morrison alone established in Animal Man and connected works? Please be sufficiently thorough with your logical reasoning for this.

Going by just Grant Morrison's run of Animal Man in itself:

Restored Pre-Crisis Multiverse = 2-A
The Great Light = Low 1-C (it transcends physical reality)
The Implicate Order/Comic Book Limbo = 1-C (it transcends the Great Light, "views" the Great Light as a mere "middle ground" between it and "lesser" reality)

Going by what Grant Morrison wrote in other works, or by the wider DC cosmology, the Great Light and Implicate Order/Comic Book Limbo in particular could be any arbitrarily higher tier the DC-knowledgeable members agree on, likely both 1-A.

Ultima's word is not law. He does not automatically know all of the exact specifics of every verse, and the explanations fed to him by potentially biased fans of a franchise are not automatically accurate.

I certainly take Ultima's views on the matter more seriously than those of some guy who unironically believes that the literal physical "heat of 10 billion suns" is enough to hurt Cosmic Armor Superman. You're pretty much the only person currently active in this thread who agrees with Deagonx on this matter of Animal Man's power level and cosmology, or sees him as any kind of "authority" on the matter in general, and that's transparently due to your own extreme biases against high-tier DC anything.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose it is "gang up on Ant whenever he has the audacity to express an opinion about anything, rather than just always being an unpaid helpful maintenance worker" time again. Oh well, let's get it over with I suppose.

If we don't use published interviews for tiering in comics, this must be news to me, and probably a lot of other people too, since they were used for better understanding Mandrakk/Cosmic Armor Superman, Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, the denizens of the Fourth World, the Source, and several other concepts in comics generally. Hell, we even use interview statements and one Marvel editor's Tumblr blog for our comic book scaling rules page.

This new rule, put bluntly, sounds like something you just completely made up on the spot to stop Animal Man from getting "too high" a tier.

Not at all. This issue has been mentioned by me and others many times before over the years, and is factually accurate. Single writers with no true creative control/ownership over a shared setting cannot randomly dictate all of the rules within it whenever they wish if these have not been officially approved. Sometimes their statements are useful as supplementary clarifications though, but as a general principle it seems very unwise to cherry-pick writer statements from social media or even many interviews to support concepts that were never officially established.

Animal Man is a single comic book line, with no interruptions in continuity or anything like that, so trying to rigidly separate between what Morrison does with it and what other writers do with it is a frankly asinine thing to do.

I strongly disagree, but that issue will be handled during our upcoming cosmology revision thread.

But other than that, the return of the pre-Crisis multiverse (because of Psycho Pirate's memories, in Animal Man #24), the implicate/explicate order, the Great Light, and Comic Book Limbo are all things Grant Morrison directly introduced into Animal Man.

Grant Morrison was writing or involved in the entire Animal Man comic book line up to #26, just so we're clear here.

Okay. No problem.

Going by just Grant Morrison's run of Animal Man in itself:

Restored Pre-Crisis Multiverse = 2-A
The Great Light = Low 1-C (it transcends physical reality)
The Implicate Order/Comic Book Limbo = 1-C (it transcends the Great Light, "views" the Great Light as a mere "middle ground" between it and "lesser" reality)

Going by what Grant Morrison wrote in other works, the Great Light and Implicate Order/Comic Book Limbo in particular could be any arbitrarily higher tier the DC-knowledgeable members agree on.

Okay. That seems reasonable.

I certainly take Ultima's views on the matter more seriously than those of some guy who unironically believes that the literal physical "heat of 10 billion suns" is enough to hurt Cosmic Armor Superman. You're pretty much the only person currently active in this thread who agrees with Deagonx on this matter of Animal Man's power level and cosmology, or sees him as any kind of "authority" on the matter in general, and that's transparently due to your own extreme biases against high-tier DC anything.

I obviously consider that statement as an extreme outlier far below what Cosmic Armor Superman has been shown capable of, but Deagonx does in fact seem to be quite knowledgeable about DC Comics history.

Also, I am not biased against "high-tier DC anything". I am fine with it if it has been been established via a coherent unified creative vision. I am not the type of person who plays social games or consciously uses lies, manipulation, or subterfuge. I am very socially blunt and unfiltered due to my mental condition. and have been very open about exactly what I think in this regard, and my problem is with stacking very contradictory cosmologies on top of each other to give many characters statistics far beyond what was established in any stories that they took part in. That is it. It have an aversion to what seem unreliable, period. I also think that some of the established DC Comics cosmologies are rated very high in themselves, if I remember correctly.

 

[Antvasima]

Im sorry Ant but this applies to you.

It might not be clear to you, but it's clear to everyone else that you are simply letting your own, uniformed biases get in the way of progress. This is not productive to the site and does not reflect well on its content. Several people who read the run and others who are familiar with the source material all came to similar conclusion, why are they not listened too?

I have listened to other members here who have expressed well-considered views, including Malomtek. I admittedly do not trust Xearsay though. Sorry about that.

 

[Transcending]

I think we should ask Xearsay before doing any postponing, given that we do not even have an exact date for when the revisions drop.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I have listened to other members here who have expressed well-considered views, including Malomtek. I admittedly do not trust Xearsay though. Sorry about that.

See, right here. You yourself are admitting you're not being a neutral party in this. You're hiding behind biases, and thus your opinion should frankly be irrelevant regarding this matter. If I admitted to being against a revision for "distrusting" a person despite all the evidence being presented, my opinion should rightfully be disregarded, the same should very much be applied to you.

 

[Antvasima]

See, right here. You yourself are admitting you're not being a neutral party in this. You're hiding behind biases, and thus your opinion should frankly be irrelevant regarding this matter. If I admitted to being against a revision for "distrusting" a person despite all the evidence being presented, my opinion should rightfully be disregarded, the same should very much be applied to you.

Since, as I stated above, I am not the type who lies, manipulates, or plays social games, I am self-admittedly distrustful of a single participant because he seems to have a repeated history of misrepresenting information in order to apply unreliable tiering. That is it. I have tried to listen to everybody else here. Automatically disregarding all of my views because I do not trust absolutely everybody in the world or this forum, does not make any sense, especially as I know this verse well to start with, even though I have limited time available here.

 

[Antvasima]

I think we should ask Xearsay before doing any postponing, given that we do not even have an exact date for when the revisions drop.

Well, LuciferDC099 just told me that he will be available to help make our case in August and October, but I will participate in a few meditation courses in August, so I do not know if that is the best time, and it would be much preferable if we finally receive some new input from Sandman31 and Ultima as well.

 

[Transcending]

Well, LuciferDC099 just told me that he will be available to help make our case in August and October, but I will participate in a few meditation courses in August, so I do not know if that is the best time, and it would be much preferable if we finally receive some new input from Sandman31 and Ultima as well.

So we are talking October at the very least? That's 3 months.

 

[Antvasima]

Well likely late August or early October. That is not very long as far as I am concerned. I have had to be patient for this project to finally get finished for almost 2 years now, and had to continuously try to find knowlegeable members to improve on the reliability of a few other verses until something finally happened for far longer than that.

 

[Malomtek]

Not at all. This issue has been mentioned by me and others many times before over the years, and is factually accurate. Single writers with no true creative control/ownership over a shared setting cannot randomly dictate all of the rules within it whenever they wish if these have not been officially approved. Sometimes their statements are useful as supplementary clarifications though, but as a general principle it seems very unwise to cherry-pick writer statements from social media or even many interviews to support concepts that were never officially established.

No single interview statement in DC Comics is used to "dictate all the rules" of its setting (expect for how we generally powerscale between characters, but that's a whole 'nother discussion). In fact, a writer's interview statements are, more often than not, used in regards to that same writer's specific work or line of works, or for a larger project, either way involving established concepts.

And why do we need explicit confirmation of "official approval" for anything beyond social media statements? Published interviews are scripted. The writer takes time to write them out. They're "allowed" by DC to engage in these public interviews. "Allowed" being in quotes because these people are grown adults, DC editorial is not their nanny, and they don't need an explicit "go-ahead" from DC supervisors to comment on their own works or own interpretation of the DC setting. What a writer thinks about his own work is not somehow entirely disconnected from the work itself unless (or until) he actually writes it down.

Interviews don't need big "THIS INTERVIEW WAS APPROVED BY DC/MARVEL COMICS" stickers to be usable or viable.

I obviously consider that statement as an extreme outlier far below what Cosmic Armor Superman has been shown capable of, but Deagonx does in fact seem to be quite knowledgeable about DC Comics history.

I don't think anyone who takes that "heat of 10 billion suns" statement as literal knows much of anything about DC Comics or its history, and that's putting it lightly and charitably.

Also, I am not biased against "high-tier DC anything". I am fine with it if it has been been established via a coherent unified creative vision. I am not the type of person who plays social games or consciously uses lies, manipulation, or subterfuge. I am very socially blunt and unfiltered due to my mental condition. and have been very open about exactly what I think in this regard, and my problem is with stacking very contradictory cosmologies on top of each other to give many characters statistics far beyond what was established in any stories that they took part in. That is it. It have an aversion to what seem unreliable, period. I also think that some of the established DC Comics cosmologies are rated very high in themselves, if I remember correctly.

Okay, so here's a question: how does the Animal Man comic book line "incohere" with regards to the Grant Morrison and post-Grant Morrison issues? Are there any grievous contradictions between the two that need to be addressed?

Because, from what I've seen, the only real difference between the Grant Morrison and post-Grant Morrison run, especially in terms of cosmology, is that the post-Grant Morrison Animal Man comics expand on concepts already introduced by Grant Morrison himself. Everything Grant Morrison originally wrote is still there, just explained in a new light, examined from a new, different perspective. Hence why the later books are more "shamanistic" and less overtly "metafictional".

Since, as I stated above, I am not the type who lies, manipulates, or plays social games, I am self-admittedly distrustful of a single participant because he seems to have a repeated history of misrepresenting information in order to apply unreliable tiering.

I looked up both Xearsay's posting history, and it's largely just been him arguing with Deagonx (and others) about DC Comics tiering, this being a sort of "trend" among them (going even across forums, like Spacebattles for example). This kind of characterization of what Xearsay does only really applies if you take anything Deagonx says as true by default, and anything Xearsay says as false by default.

 

[Transcending]

Well likely late August or early October. That is not very long as far as I am concerned. I have had to be patient for this project to finally get finished for almost 2 years now, and had to continuously try to find knowlegeable members to improve on the reliability of a few other verses until something finally happened for far longer than that.

Well I haven't waited for two years(I wasn't major on fictional debating back then), and yea 3 months is shorter than 2 years, but I think it's still a long enough time that we need Xearsay's permission.

 

[Antvasima]

No single interview statement in DC Comics is used to "dictate all the rules" of its setting (expect for how we generally powerscale between characters, but that's a whole 'nother discussion). In fact, a writer's interview statements are, more often than not, used in regards to that same writer's specific work or line of works, or for a larger project, either way involving established concepts.

And why do we need explicit confirmation of "official approval" for anything beyond social media statements? Published interviews are scripted. The writer takes time to write them out. They're "allowed" by DC to engage in these public interviews. "Allowed" being in quotes because these people are grown adults, DC editorial is not their nanny, and they don't need an explicit "go-ahead" from DC supervisors to comment on their own works or own interpretation of the DC setting. What a writer thinks about his own work is not somehow entirely disconnected from the work itself unless (or until) he actually writes it down.

Interviews don't need big "THIS INTERVIEW WAS APPROVED BY DC/MARVEL COMICS" stickers to be usable or viable.

They are allowed to engage in promotion for themselves or the companies. That does definitely not give them ownership or final say regarding everything that applies, has applied, or will apply to the entire extremely shared setting. That does not remotely make any sense whatsoever. I don't know why we are even arguing about this.

I don't think anyone who takes that "heat of 10 billion suns" statement as literal knows much of anything about DC Comics or its history, and that's putting it lightly and charitably.

He does know quite a lot. He just tends to focus on lower-level feats than the average powerscaler who wants as high statistics as possible. He simply seems to approach these issues from a different viewpoint.

Okay, so here's a question: how does the Animal Man comic book line "incohere" with regards to the Grant Morrison and post-Grant Morrison issues? Are there any grievous contradictions between the two that need to be addressed?

Because, from what I've seen, the only real difference between the Grant Morrison and post-Grant Morrison run, especially in terms of cosmology, is that the post-Grant Morrison Animal Man comics expand on concepts already introduced by Grant Morrison himself. Everything Grant Morrison originally wrote is still there, just explained in a new light, examined from a new, different perspective. Hence why the later books are more "shamanistic" and less overtly "metafictional".

I am not sure. It has been a long time since I read the comic book in question. It is up to others to investigate argue about whether the inherent coherence works out or not in this particular case. I do not have the time for it, and also have a very tight schedule in which I try to find the time to exercise and engage in my ongoing meditation lessons IRL. I do not have the time or interest to engage in some kind of off-topic hostile online shouting match.

I looked up both Xearsay's posting history, and it's largely just been him arguing with Deagonx (and others) about DC Comics tiering, this being a sort of "trend" among them (going even across forums, like Spacebattles for example). This kind of characterization of what Xearsay does only really applies if you take anything Deagonx says as true by default, and anything Xearsay says as false by default.

I do not take everything Deagonx says as true, but I have admittedly not had the time to read many of Xearsay's posts here, due to limited available free time and that it seemed like he misrepresented information based on the arguments here and elsewhere.

 

[Antvasima]

Well I haven't waited for two years(I wasn't major on fictional debating back then), and yea 3 months is shorter than 2 years, but I think it's still a long enough time that we need Xearsay's permission.

If we are going to wait for Xearsay's permission, this thread will aimlessly continue to repeat itself for another 1000 posts, with lots of off-topic unconstructive hostile toxic derailing along the way. I definitely do not have the time and patience to deal with that, will get increasingly stressed out from constantly having to defend myself against personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, not get enough free time to take care of my physical and spiritual health, and not be able to finish my meditation course in the allotted time for it, so I am not exactly happy about all of this.

 

[Transcending]

If we are going to wait for Xearsay's permission, this thread will aimlessly continue to repeat itself for another 1000 posts

Most people already agree with Xearsay, postponing the thread due to the opinions of a very small minority without agreement from the OP doesn't make sense to me.

with lots of off-topic unconstructive hostile toxic derailing along the way. I definitely do not have the time and patience to deal with that, will get increasingly stressed out from constantly having to defend myself against personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic at hand

I think this can be solved by not attacking Xearsay and just dealing with his arguments.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not attacking Xearsay. People keep making relentless derailing personal attacks against me and Deagonx, and bringing him up in conjunction, and I honestly respond that I do not trust him. That is all.

Also, Deagonx and Pain_to12 have already made lots of good arguments for their cases here, whereas lots of FRAs from regular members who want upgrades honestly do not contribute very much. In fact Deagonx and Pain seemed to have thoroughly debunked Xearsay until their arguments were interrupted by off-topic hostility.

I also considered Malomtek's tiering evaluations rather balanced as I said earlier, despite that he has been very rude and hostile, possibly due to his past history in our rule-violation thread.

However, we still need to close this discussion until later, as it does not fit with the greater context yet, and takes up far too much pointless time and energy that I need to use for far more important tasks.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I apologise if I have been stressed out and impatient here. I am currently under serious time constraints from trying to juggle all of my responsibilities in this community and IRL at the same time, and do not deal well with destructive social conflict and drama under such circumstances.

 

[Deagonx]

This kind of characterization of what Xearsay does only really applies if you take anything Deagonx says as true by default, and anything Xearsay says as false by default

It isn't by default. I debunk the arguments pretty thoroughly.

Most people already agree with Xearsay, postponing the thread due to the opinions of a very small minority without agreement

That's just blatantly untrue. And even if it was true, CRTs aren't votes.

However, we still need to close this discussion until later, as it does not fit with the greater context yet, and takes up far too much pointless time and energy that I need to use for far more important tasks.

I agree. We had reached a conclusion to upgrade to 3-A to Low 2-C and just needed references added before all the drama broke out again. The basis for that was firm. The other details can be ironed out at the appropriate time

 

[Antvasima]

Well, what Malomtek said about the tiering might be possible to fit in with our own structure, but for the moment we should close this thread for some months, until the main discussion has been finished, yes.

 

[Pikaman]

Why close the thread? That just mutes discussion when in the next few months someone might need to make an important contribution

 

[Transcending]

That's just blatantly untrue.

Not really. Most people do agree with Xearsay (or at least disagree with his opposition), from myself and @Beyond_transcending to @Udlmaster and @Pikaman. There are numerous more people of course, like @Malomtek and I think @Confluctor. And these are just a few of the total number of people.

And even if it was true, CRTs aren't votes.

And most people do think Xearsay made better arguments. His main opposition consists of you, Pain, and Ant. Ant has stated before that he hasn't read the entire thread, Pain has admitted before that he's not knowledgeable in DC, and Ant confirmed that you always try to take the lower-end of things

He just tends to focus on lower-level feats

 

[Malomtek]

They are allowed to engage in promotion for themselves or the companies. That does definitely not give them ownership or final say regarding everything that applies, has applied, or will apply to the entire extremely shared setting. That does not remotely make any sense whatsoever. I don't know why we are even arguing about this.

They are allowed to comment on their own stories though, and the matters contained therein, which is the entire point. What Grant Morrison says about (his line of) Animal Man is not somehow entirely disconnected from what Grant Morrison wrote about Animal Man. That's just ridiculous.

Well, what Malomtek said about the tiering might be possible to fit in with our own structure, but for the moment we should close this thread for some months, until the main discussion has been finished, yes.

What is the reason or need to close this thread for? What "main discussion" needs to be finished first? Are you talking about the "cosmology split"? Because that discussion hasn't even come yet, so there's no reason to operate as if it's already ongoing.

That's just blatantly untrue. And even if it was true, CRTs aren't votes.

CRTs are literally concluded by votes, particularly those of staff. Ultima_Reality, the man who basically built this wiki's current tiering system, largely agrees with Xearsay's "side" (broadly speaking) of the analysis. The only staff member who disagreed with Tier 1 Animal Man in any capacity (and I'm talking about tier 1 in any subdivision, whether 1-C, 1-B, or 1-A) is Antvasima. The other staff haven't conclusively voted on anything yet, so there's no reason to act as if matters are already fully decided.

Well, what Malomtek said about the tiering might be possible to fit in with our own structure, but for the moment we should close this thread for some months, until the main discussion has been finished, yes.

So, question: why are you letting Deagonx, this one user (that you just so happen to agree with), decide how the Animal Man profile is to be edited, as opposed to all the others users and staff members saying different things than he is?

You literally allowed him to make an edit to the Animal Man page just because you agreed with him more (with Pain doing minor corrections, of course), even though no other staff member had agreed enough to allow an edit like this.

 

[Deagonx]

Most people do agree with Xearsay (or at least disagree with his opposition), from myself and @Beyond_transcending to @Udlmaster and @Pikaman. There are numerous more people of course, like @Malomtek and I think @Confluctor. And these are just a few of the total number of people

Calling the opposition a "very small minority" is false. I can name just as many who disagreed with the OP.

And most people do think Xearsay made better arguments.

Believing something doesn't make it true. Several of Xear's arguments were exposed as nonsensical. Several scans were exposed as misrepresented.

And just like last time, when pressed to actually account for the various levels of infinities that were needed for his suggestions, he avoided it like the plague. Just like last time he tried this revision.

 

[Deagonx]

Ultima_Reality, the man who basically built this wiki's current tiering system, largely agrees with Xearsay's "side" (broadly speaking) of the analysis

Again, no one has actually quoted what Ultima said, so this is meaningless.

Btw I contacted Grant Morrison, who said I was right. I can't show you, but he literally wrote the comic, so.

So, question: why are you letting Deagonx, this one user (that you just so happen to agree with), decide how the Animal Man profile is to be edited, as opposed to all the others users and staff members saying different things than he is?

Because the other users and staff users have not effectively proven their claims, and I have.

 

[Antvasima]

Why close the thread? That just mutes discussion when in the next few months someone might need to make an important contribution

Because it has been derailed to hell with personal attacks, largely seemingly instigated by members with past grudges who took the opportunity to gang up and went their built up toxicity against me; because Deagonx and Pain_to12 made considerably better logical arguments than Xearsay and pointed out that he was misrepresenting information; because even Malomtek has far lower interpretations than what Xearsay suggested; because we are going in circles and will never reach a conclusion; because this thread would conflict with our upcoming important revision and turn both of them incoherent; and because several regular members who like the franchise say FRA a lot and join in on the personal attack toxic derailment war of attrition bandwagon don't really matter compared to all of the past valid arguments, even if the nuggets of gold outwardly get buried in an ocean of sludge.

In addition, I am getting really tired of and impatient with this off-topic toxic grudge attack bombardment, and have extremely important tasks IRL for my personal development that I need to try to find time for and said available time is running out, so I am not at all happy about being forcibly detained here.

 

[Pikaman]

Believing something doesn't make it true

A lot of your posts have this kind of “people siding with you doesn’t make you right” attitude, but in a CRT, and vs debating as a whole, where it is people’s subjective opinions, I could just as easily turn the exact same mindset on you. You believing what you believe does not make it objectively true, correct, or even the preferred option, and you get on like it does and that you are arguing an objectively factual choice compared to an objectively disfactual choice, but in a field as subjective as battleboarding, that just isn’t the case

 

[Antvasima]

They are allowed to comment on their own stories though, and the matters contained therein, which is the entire point. What Grant Morrison says about (his line of) Animal Man is not somehow entirely disconnected from what Grant Morrison wrote about Animal Man. That's just ridiculous.

The point is that it doesn't matter what he intended if it was never accepted to be put into print by the editors, as long as he does not own the property himself. What you are saying doesn't make any sense, and I am not going to budge regarding this point.

What is the reason or need to close this thread for? What "main discussion" needs to be finished first? Are you talking about the "cosmology split"? Because that discussion hasn't even come yet, so there's no reason to operate as if it's already ongoing.

See my response above.

CRTs are literally concluded by votes, particularly those of staff. Ultima_Reality, the man who basically built this wiki's current tiering system, largely agrees with Xearsay's "side" (broadly speaking) of the analysis. The only staff member who disagreed with Tier 1 Animal Man in any capacity (and I'm talking about tier 1 in any subdivision, whether 1-C, 1-B, or 1-A) is Antvasima. The other staff haven't conclusively voted on anything yet, so there's no reason to act as if matters are already fully decided.

I am the person who organised the building of this wiki and forum in their entireties almost from the ground up with lots of help from DontTalk. My contributions to this community frankly matter of fact by far outweight Ultima's, and you still treat me in a horribly disrespectful manner.

Ultima also didn't build our system on his own. He significantly modified it with input from plenty of other staff members, particularly DontTalk, and we do not even know the circumstances of his supposed agreement, or if he had the time to read all sides of the arguments.

So, question: why are you letting Deagonx, this one user (that you just so happen to agree with), decide how the Animal Man profile is to be edited, as opposed to all the others users and staff members saying different things than he is?

You literally allowed him to make an edit to the Animal Man page just because you agreed with him more (with Pain doing minor corrections, of course), even though no other staff member had agreed enough to allow an edit like this.

I actually think that Deagonx's take on the cosmology seems considerably too low, that Xearsay's seems far too high, and that your own seemed like a more balanced take that likely fits rather well with what we intend to apply, but you have been too busy aggressively spitting poison on me to notice my preceding comments in this regard and try to collaborate with me.