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Oh yeah pardonAlright, I updated the blog, and yes; absolutely Kaioken is solid due to how in our faces the multipliers are with that.
I See it now you updated it
Yeah I agree with your Blog Seems reasonable
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Oh yeah pardonAlright, I updated the blog, and yes; absolutely Kaioken is solid due to how in our faces the multipliers are with that.
The same should be done with SSj1 multiplier, since we all agree that its valid like the Kaio-ken.But once this is done, I'd suggest making a rule explaining why Kaio-Ken multipliers are legitimate so that we don't face future headaches for it.
I guess so. Both of them fall under the official multipliers list straight from the source material, written out in big bold numbers.The same should be done with SSj1 multiplier, since we all agree that its valid like the Kaio-ken.
I remember this, too. Here it is.Tied up hands atm, but will update my blog soon. And I recall it was a super old thread; but it might have been the Real Cal Howard who was against it then.
Yes, because anything higher than that is extraordinary claim and requires "some" evidence if not extraordinary evidence.Rating them as "At least FTL+" is an arbitrary cap for the official and substantiated explicit speed multipliers.
We totally do. Not relevant here. Mori Jin's multiplier is directly supported by a blatant demonstration of him oneshotting 200 quintillion Satan clones. You can make a different thread if you have problems with different series but the argument of "this series is doing this thing so why not this other series" is not an argument at all.We use much higher multipliers such as a 250,000x multiplier for Mori Jin to jump him a tier
We are not going to go to extremes on both ends. The idea of rating all of them as rel+ is just as ridiculous as rating all of them as MFTL based on no evidence. Middle ground is required. Common sense needs to be used without going to extremes. Them jumping to FTL+, likely higher from a rel+ feat based on multipliers is not something extraordinary or unbelievable and can be accepted even in lack of evidence. However, the insane jump being proposed, definitely needs something to show for it.and the whole narrative around Dragon Ball is that they break their limits and become substantially stronger and faster, we just happen to have some numbers to quantify this increase. There is no reason to cap them at FTL+
So this brings it up again, do we accept secondary canon that is consistent to the primary canon as evidence or not? From what I see of wiki precedents we do. We should therefore logically implement the 10x boost in speed for Goku from Saiyan Saga to Namek Saga in place of the current 4x boost, like most people earlier agreed upon.
Also, I'm fairly sure there's a ton of verses that use synopses as evidence.
Agreed.The only really multiplier that has any real conflictions is the 10x statement from the Volume; we've had literally hundreds of proving Kaioken's consistency; so we really do not need to regress that back to square one. As for other factors, technically even the low end extremes requires more "Arguing on ignorance" than the high end; high end at least has a combination of mathematics combined with a multitude of scaling chain stacks. Even my blog is technically a low ball since if there's like 60 something arrows to indicate greater than, it would logically be much higher than that.
Even before Kaioken stuff, there are a basis for upscaling; Goku blitzes Nappa, who blitzes the Z Fighters, whom Krillin specifically blitzes all Saibamen, who are individually Raditz equal, who blitzed the combined might of Goku and Piccolo at the time. And since the gap is like less than 1.33x, it could be argued as low enough for an upscale just from those; anything higher than FTL outside of multipliers is too stretchy yes, and I didn't even use this, but I still added a bunch of arrows to indicate all ratings are technically a lowball; with each one being a bigger lowball than the last. FTL+ doesn't even have mathematical end anymore as it's something Frieza's 1st form upscales from Kaioken x4 Goku. And its not an assumption as it's canonically something he has shown to be capable of a long time ago. Yes, using 10x hypotheticals are assuming, but not the x4 stuff. Then even AKM Sama agreed the 20x and 40x shouldn't be ignored either; with 50x having a solid basis.
Even without multipliers, everyone deserves an, at least rating, likely higher. Even characters like Raditz, Nappa, and especially base Goku have enough chains for that. With each and every FTL, FTL+, and Massively FTL character in my blog only having even stronger ground for the "Far Higher" especially. So while I agree on AKM Sama about no one should be MFTL+; and once you reach that, "At least" and "Far higher" become taboo to use by nature that the rating after that is infinite.
However, in the end, I think it might just be best to stick to what I have on my blog. That's what I feel is the actual "Middle ground" as it gets.
Yes, the reasoning is called having common sense. It doesn't matter if the multiplier was shown to be legit when it was introduced, if you are making an extraordinary jump based on that, you better come with extraordinary evidence. And of course a bit of a jump from rel+ to FTL+ can be taken as a middle ground because that's a small and believable jump in this scenario, but as you go higher, you have no supporting evidence to show for it and your claim by default grows weak. This is debating 101, the higher your claim, the more burden of evidence is on you. And you are trying to make a verse MFTL+ despite it not showing a single FTL feat. That is undoubtedly ridiculous, and if you can't see it, I can't help you.There is no quantifiable or logical reasoning behind that, its just your opinion on where you think there speed should cap out at. I could just as easily say increasing their speed tier past Rel+ is "ridiculous" or unreasonable
Agreed. I feel like it's the most reasonable solution at this point.I personally think that we should use the compromise/middle ground solution that Medeus and KLOL506 worked out.
Yes I think this should be appliedI personally think that we should use the compromise/middle ground solution that Medeus and KLOL506 worked out.
Well we still need to use "At least" ratings given that the scaling chain itself is a low-ball due to how much superiority they show over their feats the stronger they become.I guess DarkDragon's scaling can be used as a valid compromise for everyone if Massively FTL+ it's far too taboo.
I also think someone like Super Vegito at least deserves a "likely higher" as well, for obvious reasons.Well we still need to use "At least" ratings given that the scaling chain itself is a low-ball due to how much superiority they show over their feats the stronger they become.
Obviously.I also think someone like Super Vegito at least deserves a "likely higher" as well, for obvious reasons.
I think anything past cell Saga deserves thatI also think someone like Super Vegito at least deserves a "likely higher" as well, for obvious reasons.
Considering all jumps of power/speed in the series, i would dare to say that at the very least Cell Saga Top Tiers should get that, and this as a lowball.I think anything past cell Saga deserves that
I mean, Post-Training Namek Goku is easily visibly superior to his Saiyan Saga KKx4 self and both I and DDM did already account for it so...I don't agree, using the 10x synopsis multiplier is factually more accurate, and no evidence has been brought forth as to why it cant be used, and most people agree with using it. From what I see some people are just throwing a tantrum is all because they don't like the numbers that come out of the explicit official multipliers, so we are compromising accuracy here by not using the 10x speed addition. Also, I will likely do a revision after on Watagash which will give them a scalable mftl/mftl+ feat soon enough, and then the whole argument on there not being mftl/mftl+ feats will be moot anyway.
All that being said, if we implement the notes that are currently in the blog I created with input from everybody into DDM blog to clarify why those speed boost are being used, or alternatively I edit my blog to reflect using KKx4 boost instead of the 10x boost, which is the only numerical difference, that is better than doing nothing and I would at least support it for the time being above the way things are rated now. Although I agree completely as it stands the characters should certainly have an "At least, likely far higher" addition.
How would the Watagash scaling work? The Watagash did the feat by itself, so:OK, in an effort to better prove the speed of the DBZ characters I have created a CRT and accompanying blog to prove that Watagash feat is MFTL+, that Gohan even in base scales above Watagash, and that Gohan Pre Piccolo training is below the level of power he had in his Ultimate form during the Buu arc, even as a SSJ2. Thus Watagash MFTL+ feat scales to the 4-B and likely 4-C characters.
Perhaps if we can agree upon this the transition of using these multipliers will be far more palatable, for those opposed or on the fence.
Yes, that's correct. They even explicitly say the more darkness in the heart of the host, the stronger it is, and that by itself Watagash is basically harmless.How would the Watagash scaling work? The Watagash did the feat by itself, so:
Base Gohan > 2nd form Watagash Barry >> 1st form Watagash Barry >>> Watagash without hosts = Watagash speed
Sure.That's great an all, but can we gat back to finalizing Frieza Saga speed?