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DBZ Speed CRT

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Me personally I still think we should use the 10x multiplier from his training for Namek but as a middle ground I am not opposed to the "At least X, possibly Y" route, given that there is a tremendous amount of evidence to support Goku's Namek 10x stat increase, the synopsis from Shonen Jump, the power level increase, and Goku showing clear superiority over the Ginyu Force without even breaking a sweat.

But once this is done, I'd suggest making a rule explaining why Kaio-Ken multipliers are legitimate so that we don't face future headaches for it. No matter how many times people bring up their disagreement for KK multipliers, it's visibly obvious and undeniably a fact that Kaio-Ken multipliers are as blatant as can be with its power increases and thus does not need supporting feats for itself.
 
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Stefano4444 said:
The same should be done with SSj1 multiplier, since we all agree that its valid like the Kaio-ken.
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I guess so. Both of them fall under the official multipliers list straight from the source material, written out in big bold numbers.
 
Idk why people like to bring up other verses with their entirely different contexts and false equivalencies. If someone has a problem with other verses, they can make another thread for that matter and question their use of multipliers. Just because another verse is using a high multiplier, that is totally shown by a feat.

Rating them as "At least FTL+" is an arbitrary cap for the official and substantiated explicit speed multipliers.
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Yes, because anything higher than that is extraordinary claim and requires "some" evidence if not extraordinary evidence.

We use much higher multipliers such as a 250,000x multiplier for Mori Jin to jump him a tier
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We totally do. Not relevant here. Mori Jin's multiplier is directly supported by a blatant demonstration of him oneshotting 200 quintillion Satan clones. You can make a different thread if you have problems with different series but the argument of "this series is doing this thing so why not this other series" is not an argument at all.

and the whole narrative around Dragon Ball is that they break their limits and become substantially stronger and faster, we just happen to have some numbers to quantify this increase. There is no reason to cap them at FTL+
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We are not going to go to extremes on both ends. The idea of rating all of them as rel+ is just as ridiculous as rating all of them as MFTL based on no evidence. Middle ground is required. Common sense needs to be used without going to extremes. Them jumping to FTL+, likely higher from a rel+ feat based on multipliers is not something extraordinary or unbelievable and can be accepted even in lack of evidence. However, the insane jump being proposed, definitely needs something to show for it.
 
Hmm perhaps if we bring the evidence that supports each iteration of kaioken actually given the amp that it's supposed to give then it'd be easier to swallow? So for instance (fictional example) Goku fights Vegeta and starts using kaioken times 4 to blitz Vegeta then we can safely assume that Goku's speed did in fact increase by 4 times. And this for every time we use a multiplier.
 
We already showed it
They were clearly stated & backed up & logical
Even if people has Problem with ryu's Blog (which is actually looking fine to me) we can medus's Blog after all the previous ftl+ was stated from his Blog now the calc & speed is upgraded I dont See why people having peoblem with that thats honestly not taking even the 10x boast into consideration which we already proved that was a thing but even if we remove it (dont See any solid reason other than headcanon to remove it though) the thing is still going solidly over 500c as shown in medus's Blog anything below that is just denying the got faster & denying the official Kairo ken multiplier
 
@DarkDragonMedeus blog uses the exact same numbers mine does at this point for speed, so i agree with most of it. The only difference is that it does not factor in the explicit 10x speed multiplier for Goku from the Shonen Jump synopsis, which is perfectly valid as an official source directly talking about the manga and attached to the manga, and not contradicted. As well as the notes section explaining the reasoning for the speeds is not present. I don't mind which one is used, but I would like to see that last piece implemented to the scaling, and the notes added for clarification if we are using DDM blog.

So this brings it up again, do we accept secondary canon that is consistent to the primary canon as evidence or not? From what I see of wiki precedents we do. We should therefore logically implement the 10x boost in speed for Goku from Saiyan Saga to Namek Saga in place of the current 4x boost, like most people earlier agreed upon.

@AKM sama You are arbitrarily choosing a cap for explicit speed multipliers by saying the multipliers are fine to use for upgrades, but they can't be placed above FTL+ speed with multipliers because you somehow believe that is when it gets "ridiculous". There is no quantifiable or logical reasoning behind that, its just your opinion on where you think there speed should cap out at. I could just as easily say increasing their speed tier past Rel+ is "ridiculous" or unreasonable, or that it meets the "ridiculous" threshold after they increase their speed a thousand fold, a billion fold. You either accept the explicit multipliers or you don't, otherwise you have an arbitrary threshold of where they can't be increased past that has no backing in logic or official content. Don't go cherry picking which ones can be used, and arbitrarily choosing a cap to them.

Edit: On a side note I think a argument can be made for Watagash scaling to Gohan, and Gohan being below his Buu saga Mystic levels pre ToP and Piccolo training. That could give us a feat that is mftl/mftl+ that scales to 4-B guys.
 
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So this brings it up again, do we accept secondary canon that is consistent to the primary canon as evidence or not? From what I see of wiki precedents we do. We should therefore logically implement the 10x boost in speed for Goku from Saiyan Saga to Namek Saga in place of the current 4x boost, like most people earlier agreed upon.
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Which other verse uses volume synopses / book synopses as the primary evidence for a multiplier?
 
Despite disagreeing with MFTL+, I completely agree that cutting speed ratings off at FTL+ is a very arbitrary move.

@Damage There's thousands of pages on this wiki and absolutely no rules against this, so probably no one is going to sift through profiles just to address that. Show us that this kind of thing is objectionable when it's not contradicted by the source material. Also, I'm fairly sure there's a ton of verses that use synopses as evidence.
 
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@ByAsura; I'd just prefer some better way of verifying the end-result speed ratings than enormous scaling chains and stacked multipliers.

I won't stop the supporters from going ahead and upgrading the characters. I'm just not satisfied with it.

Also, I'm fairly sure there's a ton of verses that use synopses as evidence.
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I don't think I've come across one other than DBZ so far.
 
I agree with that, but the multipliers themselves are all valid. In this case, multiplier chains are kind of different animals than the multipliers themselves.

I can't recall the names.
 
The only really multiplier that has any real conflictions is the 10x statement from the Volume; we've had literally hundreds of proving Kaioken's consistency; so we really do not need to regress that back to square one. As for other factors, technically even the low end extremes requires more "Arguing on ignorance" than the high end; high end at least has a combination of mathematics combined with a multitude of scaling chain stacks. Even my blog is technically a low ball since if there's like 60 something arrows to indicate greater than, it would logically be much higher than that.

Even before Kaioken stuff, there are a basis for upscaling; Goku blitzes Nappa, who blitzes the Z Fighters, whom Krillin specifically blitzes all Saibamen, who are individually Raditz equal, who blitzed the combined might of Goku and Piccolo at the time. And since the gap is like less than 1.33x, it could be argued as low enough for an upscale just from those; anything higher than FTL outside of multipliers is too stretchy yes, and I didn't even use this, but I still added a bunch of arrows to indicate all ratings are technically a lowball; with each one being a bigger lowball than the last. FTL+ doesn't even have mathematical end anymore as it's something Frieza's 1st form upscales from Kaioken x4 Goku. And its not an assumption as it's canonically something he has shown to be capable of a long time ago. Yes, using 10x hypotheticals are assuming, but not the x4 stuff. Then even AKM Sama agreed the 20x and 40x shouldn't be ignored either; with 50x having a solid basis.

Even without multipliers, everyone deserves an, at least rating, likely higher. Even characters like Raditz, Nappa, and especially base Goku have enough chains for that. With each and every FTL, FTL+, and Massively FTL character in my blog only having even stronger ground for the "Far Higher" especially. So while I agree on AKM Sama about no one should be MFTL+; and once you reach that, "At least" and "Far higher" become taboo to use by nature that the rating after that is infinite.

However, in the end, I think it might just be best to stick to what I have on my blog. That's what I feel is the actual "Middle ground" as it gets.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The only really multiplier that has any real conflictions is the 10x statement from the Volume; we've had literally hundreds of proving Kaioken's consistency; so we really do not need to regress that back to square one. As for other factors, technically even the low end extremes requires more "Arguing on ignorance" than the high end; high end at least has a combination of mathematics combined with a multitude of scaling chain stacks. Even my blog is technically a low ball since if there's like 60 something arrows to indicate greater than, it would logically be much higher than that.

Even before Kaioken stuff, there are a basis for upscaling; Goku blitzes Nappa, who blitzes the Z Fighters, whom Krillin specifically blitzes all Saibamen, who are individually Raditz equal, who blitzed the combined might of Goku and Piccolo at the time. And since the gap is like less than 1.33x, it could be argued as low enough for an upscale just from those; anything higher than FTL outside of multipliers is too stretchy yes, and I didn't even use this, but I still added a bunch of arrows to indicate all ratings are technically a lowball; with each one being a bigger lowball than the last. FTL+ doesn't even have mathematical end anymore as it's something Frieza's 1st form upscales from Kaioken x4 Goku. And its not an assumption as it's canonically something he has shown to be capable of a long time ago. Yes, using 10x hypotheticals are assuming, but not the x4 stuff. Then even AKM Sama agreed the 20x and 40x shouldn't be ignored either; with 50x having a solid basis.

Even without multipliers, everyone deserves an, at least rating, likely higher. Even characters like Raditz, Nappa, and especially base Goku have enough chains for that. With each and every FTL, FTL+, and Massively FTL character in my blog only having even stronger ground for the "Far Higher" especially. So while I agree on AKM Sama about no one should be MFTL+; and once you reach that, "At least" and "Far higher" become taboo to use by nature that the rating after that is infinite.

However, in the end, I think it might just be best to stick to what I have on my blog. That's what I feel is the actual "Middle ground" as it gets.
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Agreed.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
There is no quantifiable or logical reasoning behind that, its just your opinion on where you think there speed should cap out at. I could just as easily say increasing their speed tier past Rel+ is "ridiculous" or unreasonable
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Yes, the reasoning is called having common sense. It doesn't matter if the multiplier was shown to be legit when it was introduced, if you are making an extraordinary jump based on that, you better come with extraordinary evidence. And of course a bit of a jump from rel+ to FTL+ can be taken as a middle ground because that's a small and believable jump in this scenario, but as you go higher, you have no supporting evidence to show for it and your claim by default grows weak. This is debating 101, the higher your claim, the more burden of evidence is on you. And you are trying to make a verse MFTL+ despite it not showing a single FTL feat. That is undoubtedly ridiculous, and if you can't see it, I can't help you.

Secondly, your reverse argument of "let's just rate them as rel+, higher" is bad because we are trying to be less ridiculous and find an open acceptable middle ground. But you are technically correct, that is how they can be rated if you want to be overly strict. If you wanna go that route, I won't write walls arguing against it.

inb4 it is arbitrary and in your view it should make more sense for them to be MFTL+ via multiplier stacking, which is a known practice of escalating results, then we simply don't agree on that part.
 
Like i said the FTL+ thingy came from medus's Blog which back then used a lower speed of the calc, the Blog is updated now as a middle ground i dont See any reason to why not use it
That wasn't ridiculous now it is since its going her to them, wait what thats not logical
This conversation is just going in circles
Antvasima said:
I personally think that we should use the compromise/middle ground solution that Medeus and KLOL506 worked out.
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Yes I think this should be applied
But that Blog should have some small notes explanation like ryu said
 
I guess DarkDragon's scaling can be used as a valid compromise for everyone if Massively FTL+ it's far too taboo.
 
LightReinh12345 said:
I think anything past cell Saga deserves that
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Considering all jumps of power/speed in the series, i would dare to say that at the very least Cell Saga Top Tiers should get that, and this as a lowball.

Basically everyone comparable or faster than Cell Saga SSj1 Goku should be "At least Massively FTL, likely higher".
 
@AKM sama

Is it fine if we use Medeus' compromise solution blog? Almost everybody else seem to agree about it.
 
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I don't agree, using the 10x synopsis multiplier is factually more accurate, and no evidence has been brought forth as to why it cant be used, and most people agree with using it. From what I see some people are just throwing a tantrum is all because they don't like the numbers that come out of the explicit official multipliers, so we are compromising accuracy here by not using the 10x speed addition. Also, I will likely do a revision after on Watagash which will give them a scalable mftl/mftl+ feat soon enough, and then the whole argument on there not being mftl/mftl+ feats will be moot anyway.

All that being said, if we implement the notes that are currently in the blog I created with input from everybody into DDM blog to clarify why those speed boost are being used, or alternatively I edit my blog to reflect using KKx4 boost instead of the 10x boost, which is the only numerical difference, that is better than doing nothing and I would at least support it for the time being above the way things are rated now. Although I agree completely as it stands the characters should certainly have an "At least, likely far higher" addition.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
I don't agree, using the 10x synopsis multiplier is factually more accurate, and no evidence has been brought forth as to why it cant be used, and most people agree with using it. From what I see some people are just throwing a tantrum is all because they don't like the numbers that come out of the explicit official multipliers, so we are compromising accuracy here by not using the 10x speed addition. Also, I will likely do a revision after on Watagash which will give them a scalable mftl/mftl+ feat soon enough, and then the whole argument on there not being mftl/mftl+ feats will be moot anyway.

All that being said, if we implement the notes that are currently in the blog I created with input from everybody into DDM blog to clarify why those speed boost are being used, or alternatively I edit my blog to reflect using KKx4 boost instead of the 10x boost, which is the only numerical difference, that is better than doing nothing and I would at least support it for the time being above the way things are rated now. Although I agree completely as it stands the characters should certainly have an "At least, likely far higher" addition.
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I mean, Post-Training Namek Goku is easily visibly superior to his Saiyan Saga KKx4 self and both I and DDM did already account for it so...
 
OK, in an effort to better prove the speed of the DBZ characters I have created a CRT and accompanying blog to prove that Watagash feat is MFTL+, that Gohan even in base scales above Watagash, and that Gohan Pre Piccolo training is below the level of power he had in his Ultimate form during the Buu arc, even as a SSJ2. Thus Watagash MFTL+ feat scales to the 4-B and likely 4-C characters.


Perhaps if we can agree upon this the transition of using these multipliers will be far more palatable, for those opposed or on the fence.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
OK, in an effort to better prove the speed of the DBZ characters I have created a CRT and accompanying blog to prove that Watagash feat is MFTL+, that Gohan even in base scales above Watagash, and that Gohan Pre Piccolo training is below the level of power he had in his Ultimate form during the Buu arc, even as a SSJ2. Thus Watagash MFTL+ feat scales to the 4-B and likely 4-C characters.


Perhaps if we can agree upon this the transition of using these multipliers will be far more palatable, for those opposed or on the fence.
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How would the Watagash scaling work? The Watagash did the feat by itself, so:

Base Gohan > 2nd form Watagash Barry >> 1st form Watagash Barry >>> Watagash without hosts = Watagash speed
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
How would the Watagash scaling work? The Watagash did the feat by itself, so:

Base Gohan > 2nd form Watagash Barry >> 1st form Watagash Barry >>> Watagash without hosts = Watagash speed
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Yes, that's correct. They even explicitly say the more darkness in the heart of the host, the stronger it is, and that by itself Watagash is basically harmless.

I do think the Watagash feat would be a very good addition, and substantiates the scaling.
 
Firestorm808 said:
That's great an all, but can we gat back to finalizing Frieza Saga speed?
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Sure.

Just so everyone hasn't forgotten, this also affects the anime arcs of DBZ up until Goku goes SSJ (Since Anime Goku has a MFTL+ feat of over hundreds of millions of times FTL via being swifter than the spaceship he was on or something as King Kai could effortlessly track the ship but not SSJ Goku).
 
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