DBZ Speed CRT

[Firestorm808]

What makes the 10x speed statement hypothetical?

 

[LightReinh12345]

Okay, I retract that but even so. Other staff members tend to get strict when it comes to hypothetical statements like that, so I think the way I have them and some "At least, likely far higher" statements thrown in seems easier to accept.

There is nothing hypothetical about it it was clearly stated & like we proved its very consistent with the show

 

[KLOL506]

On another note, if we’re finally accepting the SS multiplier, we should integrate it into Attack Potency.

Didn't we already use it to get Goku to Low 4-C+ by multiplying it with his post-Zenkai base Namek Self, which sorta scales to First Form Frieza?

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Shouldn't Buu's universal destruction feat count as a FTL feat? Sure he was doing it overtime, but even the Kaioshin were worried that Buu would come for them after destroying the universe and their lifespans are in the tens of thousands.

 

[KLOL506]

There are also statements of Frieza's Death Beams being FTL.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

There are also statements of Frieza's Death Beams being FTL.

Didn't the Legend of the Manga guide say something about Frieza's Death Beams being a "beam of light" or something like that?

 

[KLOL506]

Didn't the Legend of the Manga guide say something about Frieza's Death Beams being a "beam of light" or something like that?

I remember there being other sources for this, but my memory isn't exactly clear about it.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

I remember there being other sources for this, but my memory isn't exactly clear about it.

I vaguely recall the Legend of the Manga saying that but that was a while back. If there are more than one sources proving Frieza's FTL death beams are legit then that could help support MFTL for DBZ I think. Personally though I think Buu's universal rampage and the Watagash feat (If that can be scaled to DBZ) are legitimate FTL feats.

I also noticed that DBZ characters can keep up with their own ki blasts and their explosions so couldn't we just scale them to Cell's solar system busting kamehameha?

 

[Firestorm808]

Let's not derail.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Let's not derail.

Sorry, my bad.

 

[ByAsura]

Didn't we already use it to get Goku to Low 4-C+ by multiplying it with his post-Zenkai base Namek Self, which sorta scales to First Form Frieza?

No. That was just upscaling.

But I'll talk about it later since Firestorm said we shouldn't derail.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Agreed. Not to mention we got stuff such as Invisible Dragon getting a 10^39 multiplier (jumping from like 7-B to a very high end 4-B) by a statement of him using 1/10^39 of his power for the feat.

And his 4th key has a multiplier of 5,783,458,765,666² times as well.

Simply ignoring accepted and canonical multipliers just because "I don't like these numbers" is unproffessional and looks pretty bad. While wank is bad, downplay is just as bad, especially when the multipliers got many evidences from the canonical manga.

Disclaimer: This is of course not a personal attack and I don't intend to call anyone a wanker or a downplayer.

This is my opinion as well

 

[KingTempest]

So lemme get this straight.

Yall got MFTL based on a shit ton of multipliers off of one calc?

Yes or no

 

[Sir_Ovens]

As an aside, comparing GoH with what you're trying to do here is false equivalence.

The 250,000x amp was only done once by the God tier of the verse and scales only to AP. We have a seperate calc for speed and it is much faster than if we had used pure multiplier.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Yes, that is how it ended up working out.

 

[Rikimarox2]

So lemme get this straight.

Yall got MFTL based on a shit ton of multipliers off of one calc?

Yes or no

Pretty much. Statements of them becoming 10x faster, along with multipliers.

 

[ByAsura]

There are also statements of Frieza's Death Beams being FTL.

They call the death beams actual light. We've rejected it on many occasions.

 

[KLOL506]

They call the death beams actual light. We've rejected it on many occasions.

I see.

 

[Stefano4444]

Yall got MFTL based on a shit ton of multipliers off of one calc?

All the speed increases are for the most based on the multipliers given by the Kaioken, while the rest are still supported by the Manga.

Adding the Post Frieza Saga characters in my original scaling and all the statements about the characters using half their power, the new scaling (if accepted) will look like this:

BoZ Piccolo/Goku, Raditz, Saibaman, Saiyan Saga Gohan, Saiyan Saga Krillin, Saiyan Saga Yamcha, Saiyan Saga Chiaotzu, Saiyan Saga Piccolo, Saiyan Saga Tien = Relativistic+/0.764c
- Via Piccolo Moon busting Ki Blast.

Nappa, Saiyan Saga Goku, Namek Saga Krillin, Namek Saga Gohan, Guldo = At least Relativistic+/0.764c
- Via scaling above Raditz and Saibaman.

Saiyan Saga KK2 Goku, Saiyan Saga Vegeta, Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon, Monster Form Zarbon = FTL/1.528c
- Via scaling from Saiyan Saga KK2 Goku (2x increase).

Namek Saga Vegeta = FTL/2.292c
- Via scaling from Saiyan Saga KK3 Goku (3x increase).

Recoome, Burter, Jeice = At least FTL/3.056c
- Via scaling from Saiyan Saga KK4 Goku (4x increase).

Namek Saga Goku, Captain Ginyu = At least FTL/7.64c
- Via Goku's power and speed increasing 10 times over via gravity training.

Namek Saga KK4 Goku, Base Frieza, 2nd Form Frieza, Frieza Saga Piccolo, Frieza Saga Enraged Gohan, Frieza Saga Vegeta = FTL+/30.56c
- Via scaling from Namek Saga KK4 Goku (4x increase).

3rd Form Frieza, Frieza Saga Post-Zenkai Vegeta/Goku = At least FTL+/30.56c
- Via scaling above Namek Saga KK4 Goku.

Frieza Saga KK20 Goku, 4th Form 50% Frieza = Massively FTL/611.2c
- Via scaling from Frieza Saga KK20 Goku (20x increase).

4th Form 100% Frieza = Massively FTL+/1222.4c
- Via Frieza be equal to Frieza Saga KK20 Goku by using only half of his full power (2x increase).

Frieza Saga SSj1 Goku, SSj1 Future Gohan, Android Saga SSj1 Future Trunks, Android Saga SSj1 Vegeta = Massively FTL+/1528c
- Via scaling from Frieza Saga SSj1 Goku (50x increase).

Android 18, Android 17, Android Saga Piccolo, Imperfect Cell, Android 16, Semi-Perfect Cell, Android Saga SSj1 2nd Grade Vegeta, Shin = Massively FTL+/3056c
- Via Future Android 17 using half of his power to overwhelm Future SSj1 Gohan, who was stated to be comparable to SSj1 Future Trunks (2x increase).

Cell Saga SSj1 4th Grade Goku, Cell Saga SSj1 4th Grade Gohan, Perfect Cell, Dabura, Buu Saga SSj2 Gohan, Super Perfect Cell = Massively FTL+/6112c
- Via SSj1 4th Grade Goku surpassing even the likes of SSj1 2nd Grade Vegeta with half of his full power (2x increase).

Cell Saga SSj2 Gohan, Buu Saga SSj2 Goku, Buu Saga SSj2 Vegeta, Fat Buu, Buu Saga SSj3 Goku, Kid Buu, Super Buu, Buu Saga SSj3 Gotenks, Buu Saga Mystic Gohan, Buutenks, Buuhan, Buu Saga Vegito = Massively FTL+/12224c
- Via SSj2 Gohan still be able to match and overpower Super Perfect Cell even with only half of his full power (2x increase).

Vegito SSj1 = Massively FTL+/611200c
- Via scaling from SSj1 Form (50x increase).

DBZ Conservative Speed Scaling

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

I also share AKM's opinion here, but this is how the verse is scaled currently. A larger CRT would probably work better.

Okay. If this builds on our currently accepted method, I am neutral then.

 

[KLOL506]

I am still in agreement with SSJRyu's scaling chain. Anything beyond that however, I'd say is too much.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally do not mind, but we need a clearance from other staff members to go ahead.

@AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @ByAsura

If this argument is based on our current standards, can't we continue to use them?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not against using the 10x statements, but I'd rather not force AKM Sama or Damage with losing their patience or interest in debating the series. Last I heard, Damage was even against upscaling them above the initial Relativistic+ feat to begin with at least originally. Kaioken statements are very in our faces, and I do realize going from being used to 10 G's to being used to 100G's would make you 10x stronger and faster. But wouldn't we also have to do the same for Raditz saga Goku to Vegeta saga Goku by that logic? Which would only result in more stacking and make the opposing side even more reluctant to accept the upgrade. Also, Ryukama thinks it's hypocritical that we didn't accept Frieza's FTL Death Beams statement which AKM Sama is also okay with using that since it makes some general FTL ratings consistent.

But anyway, while I'm not necessarily against using Ryu's blog, It's just more safer and less pushy to use my version. as that's basically the same as our current scaling chain but with the new Relativistic+ as the initial calculation rather than simply Relativistic.

 

[Stefano4444]

and I do realize going from being used to 10 G's to being used to 100G's would make you 10x stronger and faster. But wouldn't we also have to do the same for Raditz saga Goku to Vegeta saga Goku by that logic?

But we aren't merely assuming the 10 times increase just because Goku did train under 100G, but because its stated in the official Shonen Jump manga synopsis.

Which is als consistent with the official scaling as Namek Saga Goku is above Saiyan Saga Goku even with KK4.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus: Okay. I suppose that it is likely safest to use your version then, if Damage and AKM accept it.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm not against using the 10x statements, but I'd rather not force AKM Sama or Damage with losing their patience or interest in debating the series. Last I heard, Damage was even against upscaling them above the initial Relativistic+ feat to begin with at least originally. Kaioken statements are very in our faces, and I do realize going from being used to 10 G's to being used to 100G's would make you 10x stronger and faster. But wouldn't we also have to do the same for Raditz saga Goku to Vegeta saga Goku by that logic? Which would only result in more stacking and make the opposing side even more reluctant to accept the upgrade. Also, Ryukama thinks it's hypocritical that we didn't accept Frieza's FTL Death Beams statement which AKM Sama is also okay with using that since it makes some general FTL ratings consistent.

But anyway, while I'm not necessarily against using Ryu's blog, It's just more safer and less pushy to use my version. as that's basically the same as our current scaling chain but with the new Relativistic+ as the initial calculation rather than simply Relativistic.

Was there really a 10x amp statement for Goku post-King Kai training tho? So far the evidence to me looks as if that statement only exists for the Namek Saga, I don't remember there being either a synopsis or even a direct statement for the 10x amp from King Kai's training, such a statement AFAIK only exists during the Namek Saga.

Also DDM seems to be forgetting some multipliers in his blog.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, feel free to help Medeus improve his blog with input.

 

[Stefano4444]

Last I heard, Damage was even against upscaling them above the initial Relativistic+ feat to begin with at least originally.

Which it just dumb other than deeply unfair, considering there are plenty of characters from other verses that reach certain tiers by simply scaling.

For crying out loud, most Pre DBZ characters are Relativistic just because they are faster than Master Roshi, who had Sub-Relativistic+ speed.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, feel free to help Medeus improve his blog with input.

I've already replied to his blog with some corrections, however, I still believe the 10x multiplier to be legitimate for Namek Saga as it has enough evidence going on for it, however I see no evidence for any statements where Goku's post-Kai training has him become stronger by ten times, there's not even any synopses I can think of that states it so for the Saiyan Saga.

 

[KLOL506]

Last I heard, Damage was even against upscaling them above the initial Relativistic+ feat to begin with at least originally.

Yeah no, no way in hell is this gonna fly, the Saiyan Saga KK multipliers are pretty blatant and show obvious strength and speed advantages.

 

[Antvasima]

I've already replied to his blog with some corrections, however, I still believe the 10x multiplier to be legitimate for Namek Saga as it has enough evidence going on for it, however I see no evidence for any statements where Goku's post-Kai training has him become stronger by ten times, there's not even any synopses I can think of that states it so for the Saiyan Saga.

Okay. That is probably fine then.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah no, no way in hell is this gonna fly, the Saiyan Saga KK multipliers are pretty blatant and show obvious strength and speed advantages.

I don't know what post DDM is referring to. I didn't say I was against upscaling them above that feat, unless he's referring to my earlier stance on upscaling for the entire site.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah no, no way in hell is this gonna fly, the Saiyan Saga KK multipliers are pretty blatant and show obvious strength and speed advantages.

Kaioken is fine to scale from, yes. We have had long discussions about that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Tied up hands atm, but will update my blog soon. And I recall it was a super old thread; but it might have been the Real Cal Howard who was against it then.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[KLOL506]

I don't know what post DDM is referring to. I didn't say I was against upscaling them above that feat, unless he's referring to my earlier stance on upscaling for the entire site.

Except Dragon Ball relies on blatantly-stated multipliers like Kaio-Ken and SSJ1, we're not using the 1.33x logic here, this is completely different.

 

[KLOL506]

Tied up hands atm, but will update my blog soon. And I recall it was a super old thread; but it might have been the Real Cal Howard who was against it then.

I believe he had that problem on the DBS thread, not necessarily the DBZ one.

 

[KLOL506]

Kaioken is fine to scale from, yes. We have had long discussions about that.

This would also apply to the Kaio-ken multipliers in the Namek Saga. We aren't gonna axe those either, to do so would be blatant, dishonest downplay.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright, I updated the blog, and yes; absolutely Kaioken is solid due to how in our faces the multipliers are with that.

 

[LightReinh12345]

I'm not against using the 10x statements, but I'd rather not force AKM Sama or Damage with losing their patience or interest in debating the series. Last I heard, Damage was even against upscaling them above the initial Relativistic+ feat to begin with at least originally. Kaioken statements are very in our faces, and I do realize going from being used to 10 G's to being used to 100G's would make you 10x stronger and faster. But wouldn't we also have to do the same for Raditz saga Goku to Vegeta saga Goku by that logic? Which would only result in more stacking and make the opposing side even more reluctant to accept the upgrade. Also, Ryukama thinks it's hypocritical that we didn't accept Frieza's FTL Death Beams statement which AKM Sama is also okay with using that since it makes some general FTL ratings consistent.

But anyway, while I'm not necessarily against using Ryu's blog, It's just more safer and less pushy to use my version. as that's basically the same as our current scaling chain but with the new Relativistic+ as the initial calculation rather than simply Relativistic.

Your Version is ok but there is something you need to know u should use SS as 50x & 4 x 0.745 = 2.98 probably I think it was lower in your Version could u change that please I think there was a calculation mistake or something but I still think that 10x boast was legit & safe, we proved its consistency with the series & why its safe
Other than that you are reasonable I think & I understand ur views on this I respect that