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DBZ Speed CRT

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Firestorm808 said:
That's great an all, but can we gat back to finalizing Frieza Saga speed?
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For sure, I agree we should use the proposed scaling in the blog I put forth, and it stands on its own. Although the Watagash speed feat could also help support the proposed numbers for the scaling here with a single feat, so I figured it was relevant to bring up, as that's a sticking point for some and could alleviate that concern.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
For sure, I agree we should use the proposed scaling in the blog I put forth, and it stands on its own. Although the Watagash speed feat could also help support the proposed numbers for the scaling here with a single feat, so I figured it was relevant to bring up, as that's a sticking point for some and could alleviate that concern.
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Yes, I think getting that CRT accepted will help us immensely in getting this through smoothly.
 
Watagash feat is used. Watagash is already MFTL+ and Base Gohan from DBS who fought him is also MFTL+. This changes nothing as far as DBZ is concerned unless you're trying to change the whole scaling to say that Gohan, Piccolo, Frost and SSJ Goku were never universal to begin with.
 
AKM sama said:
Watagash feat is used. Watagash is already MFTL+ and Base Gohan from DBS who fought him is also MFTL+. This changes nothing as far as DBZ is concerned unless you're trying to change the whole scaling to say that Gohan, Piccolo, Frost and SSJ Goku were never universal to begin with.
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Well, as others pointed out, there doesn't seems to be a calc for it (before Ryu calc'd it) nor is it noted on Gohan's profile. Perhaps I've missed it (probably), but I can't seem to find it.

As for the scaling, ToP Gohan, Piccolo, Frost and SSJ Goku being 3-A is fine. Gohan before the ToP on the other hand is debatable imo.

This is prob derailing though, since this isn't the main topic of the thread, so I'll stop.
 
Frost reasonings for 3-A are outright wrong since he never overpowered Piccolo (quite the opposite actually, he was overpowered and Piccolo was about to fire his special beam cannon before Frost poisoned him), and Goku was heavily suppressed when he battled Frost and wanted to test his power.

Since Piccolo relies on Frost for his 3-A ratings, then he also should lose it, not to mention the U6 Arc happened only a short time after RoF, so Gohan and Piccolo jumping so suddenly from 4-B to 3-A makes absolutely no sense

Piccolo was also weaker than Gohan in RoF, as Tagoma stomped Piccolo, but SSJ Gohan stomped him

That's at least the U6 Arc Frost. ToP Frost is fine to be 3-A
 
I'm going to have to give a massive disagree with the rescaling. First of all, Frost in his 2nd form actually overpowered base Goku, and Goku at the time thought Frost was potentially stronger than Frieza minus the Golden form. Piccolo would have won his fight against Frost has he not been poisoned, so they are indeed comparable in tier. Goku even admitted he underestimated Piccolo; not to mention Vegeta considered Piccolo to be strong enough to enter the tournament but didn't consider Cabba strong enough prior to his SSJ transformations. Also, it goes without saying Goku and Vegeta are both significantly stronger in U6 saga as they were in RoF saga since the trained for 3 years in the RoSaT; though only 3 days past on Earth. Vados also considered all 5 contestants to be pretty comparable in strength, even calling Frost the strongest. Though she was hiding Hit's true strength and the fact that Frost was actually an evil cheater.

Piccolo's only U6 reason for getting upgraded was sparring with Gohan, who wanted to be motivated given his weakness in RoF saga. Also, in RoF saga, even Gohan's SSJ1 form was considered stronger than Gotenks who and as strong as his original Ultimate Gohan form. As noted when Togama was a threat to everyone, but only got much stronger when Ginyu traded bodies with him. So "Gohan being weaker than he was in Buu saga" is looking far out of context. And I'm sure Piccolo was more so judging Gohan by his warrior spirit rather than by his physical power level; Vegeta did something similar comparing his Buu saga self to his Saiyan saga self by "Returning to the warrior he once was".
 
I am still not sold on the idea of characters being rated as MFTL from a relativistic+ feat with nothing to show for it except a huge chain of multiplier stacking. I believe that is a very bad way to rate anything.
 
Well, it seems like Medeus' version makes sense in this case, in lack of better options.
 
I feel that the ongoing thread related to the Watagash feat could be very important to this scaling. As it would give 4-C and up characters a blatant mftl+ feat to scale from, and resolve pretty much any contention on this scale. So we should preferably conclude that very important feat before deciding here, as it greatly effects the outcome. Although as it stands my stance on the scaling here is the same as before.
 
AKM sama said:
I am still not sold on the idea of characters being rated as MFTL from a relativistic+ feat with nothing to show for it except a huge chain of multiplier stacking. I believe that is a very bad way to rate anything.
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I'm sorry but what other good alternatives you would prefer us to use?

Even if we decide to only use the previously multipliers, we still ended up with Massively FTL speed for 100% Frieza and SSj1 Goku no matter.

100% Frieza = 0.745c*4*2*40 = 238.4c.

SSj1 Goku = 0.745c*4*2*50 = 298c.

And for sure we aren't going to drop the multipliers or reject the new speed just because you think the characters are now too fast.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
I feel that the ongoing thread related to the Watagash feat could be very important to this scaling. As it would give 4-C and up characters a blatant mftl+ feat to scale from, and resolve pretty much any contention on this scale. So we should preferably conclude that very important feat before deciding here, as it greatly effects the outcome. Although as it stands my stance on the scaling here is the same as before.
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I feel like we should also discuss about the matter of the statements about characters only using half of their power to outspeed/overpower weaker characters.

Because i find wrong that we do not accept such statements about Future Gohan, SSj1 4th Grade Goku or SSj2 Gohan, and yet we accept Frieza's case.
 
I still strongly disagree with using Watagash's feat; no offense, it feels people are using desperation. It seems like people are so desperate to push for Massively FTL+ Buu saga, that they're downplaying various Super characters just to find an alternative. At least using the 10x statement has some bearing, but in lack of better options, I think we should just apply my blog. It was what saved the FTL to FTL+ ratings last time, but ever since the original feat went from 0.14c to 0.745c; those values are currently outdated now. Going from Relativistic to FTL+ is the same jump as going from Relativistic+ to Massively FTL just with a better initial feat. And it's backed up by multiple FTL statements. Even Raditz has an FTL statement let alone Frieza's death beams.

But anyway, I'd prefer if both sides stopped arguing in circles and perhaps move the other discussion to the other thread if needed. I still am strongly against the proposed downgrades for those U6 saga characters; especially if the motive is just so Buu saga characters can be upgraded from loopholes, but this thread should be wrapped up with my middle ground.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I still strongly disagree with using Watagash's feat; no offense, it feels people are using desperation. It seems like people are so desperate to push for Massively FTL+ Buu saga, that they're downplaying various Super characters just to find an alternative. At least using the 10x statement has some bearing, but in lack of better options, I think we should just apply my blog. It was what saved the FTL to FTL+ ratings last time, but ever since the original feat went from 0.14c to 0.745c; those values are currently outdated now. Going from Relativistic to FTL+ is the same jump as going from Relativistic+ to Massively FTL just with a better initial feat. And it's backed up by multiple FTL statements. Even Raditz has an FTL statement let alone Frieza's death beams.

But anyway, I'd prefer if both sides stopped arguing in circles and perhaps move the other discussion to the other thread if needed. I still am strongly against the proposed downgrades for those U6 saga characters; especially if the motive is just so Buu saga characters can be upgraded from loopholes, but this thread should be wrapped up with my middle ground.
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I'd rather we kept the Watagash problem on another thread instead of this one. This thread's purpose is to solidify the new speed ratings for DBZ.
 
Agreed, I know I sounded blunt, but I was also responding to AKM saying "I don't think going to Massively FTL is okay." And also explaining that part in the middle of my post.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus

I was going to do the Watagash thread after anyway, it just so happens it was relevant to this thread, so I proceeded with it sooner than expected, since if it is passed it will eliminate most concerns about mftl+ feats not existing for DBZ characters. As it stands the Watagash feat seems like a perfectly legitimate one that could be of great usefulness to gauge the speed of mid-late DBZ characters. The Watagash feat has in no way been disproven from what I see. And it is highly relevant to this thread as one of the major sticking points is the lack of mftl+ feats. I don't see how ignoring Watagash, or moving to a new thread would be beneficial.

However, all that being said, I am fine with your blog for the most part, the values are actually identical to the other blog for the most part, aside from the fact it should include the 10x multiplier for accuracy sake instead of the 4x one, and the notes section should include the reasoning for why the speed ratings are the way they are for clarity. I don't even mind if you copy/paste the notes from mine, I just want the clarity to be there regardless of which one is used to avoid future confusion. Alternatively I could edit mine to use the 4x multiplier very easily to. I am actually OK with using the MFTL numbers, and including an "At least, likely higher" part to the values. We could do that now if everybody is OK with it to wrap up these multipliers.

Then, after the Watagash feat is wrapped up, we could apply that speed value to everybody 4-C and up, and just say they are at least equal to Watagash, after all the 4-C ones aren't included in the blog anyway baring SSJ Goku and 50/100 Frieza.

I think that could be a palatable compromise to the multipliers, even if I think the 10x multiplier is perfectly legitimate and viable still.

Edit: Recoome, Jeice and Burter should scale above KKx4 Goku, not KKx3 Goku, so they should be 2.98c in DDM blog.

Edit 2: Oh, I agree 100% that we should add a rule that Kaioken speed multipliers, and the SSJ1 50x speed multiplier are acceptable to use as was discussed.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
I still strongly disagree with using Watagash's feat; no offense, it feels people are using desperation. It seems like people are so desperate to push for Massively FTL+ Buu saga, that they're downplaying various Super characters just to find an alternative. At least using the 10x statement has some bearing, but in lack of better options, I think we should just apply my blog. It was what saved the FTL to FTL+ ratings last time, but ever since the original feat went from 0.14c to 0.745c; those values are currently outdated now. Going from Relativistic to FTL+ is the same jump as going from Relativistic+ to Massively FTL just with a better initial feat. And it's backed up by multiple FTL statements. Even Raditz has an FTL statement let alone Frieza's death beams.

But anyway, I'd prefer if both sides stopped arguing in circles and perhaps move the other discussion to the other thread if needed. I still am strongly against the proposed downgrades for those U6 saga characters; especially if the motive is just so Buu saga characters can be upgraded from loopholes, but this thread should be wrapped up with my middle ground.
Click to expand...
This makes sense to me.
 
@SSJRyu1 Didn't you say in one of your videos that "Namek Saga First Form Frieza is trillions xC". If not how fast do you think they really are outside this community?
 
SSJRyu1 said:
Edit: Recoome, Jeice and Burter should scale above KKx4 Goku, not KKx3 Goku, so they should be 2.98c in DDM blog.
Click to expand...
Yeah, they'd at the very least be comparable to Ginyu himself if not swifter, considering how badly they treated Vegeta before the latter's zenkai.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I updated Recoome, Burter, and Jeice to be above KKx4 as opposed to KKx3, but yes I think it's fine to apply my evaluations yes.
Click to expand...
If only the new Fandom had some system to be able to allow users to edit their blog comments anytime they wish
 
Okay. Medeus' version can probably be applied now then.
 
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