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@Antvasima
The proposed scaling is based on the Kaio-Ken multipliers that explicitly multiply speed and strength 1 to 1.
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DBZ Speed CRT
- Thread starter Zamasu_Chan
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- dragon ball
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The proposed scaling is based on the Kaio-Ken multipliers that explicitly multiply speed and strength 1 to 1.
Stefano4444
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We're seriously using volume synopses as our primary evidence for scaling...?
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Don't see the problem with using secondary canon unless it's contradicted.
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And why we shouldn't use it?
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I dont See why not its very consistent with the scaling
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Also AKM stated earlier that he was fine with all the scaling proposed in the blog, aside from only one minor point iirc.
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I still think it might be best to use my scaling blog since it uses fewer assumptions. Scaling characters above Kaioken x3 or x4 Saiyan saga Goku is legit, but using the 10x stronger statement for PL 90,000 Goku seems iffy. And he used KKx2 against Ginyu briefly which 1st form Frieza is above; and it can be argued he's still above 4x KK Goku since he used that before too, but the Kaioken x5 or x6 would be too hypothetical. But leaning towards simply upscaling above the 180,000 PL Goku speed. Then using the respective 20x, 40x, and 50x for Kaioken x20, 100% Frieza, and Super Saiyan respectively are fine, but no more upscales till Dragon Ball Super after that. But I already did put a lot of arrows yes.
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Why 10x is iffy may I ask
The volume cover directly stated it , the gravity formula & The pl increase all suggest 10x increase its also consistent With Goku blitzing Jeice & Burter with ease as a fact Jeice & burter are much faster than KKx4 Goku saiyan Saga & Post Healing Pod Vegeta, burter even can Blitz him & that Goku taking on both burter & Jeice at the same time while not going all out also consistent with the pl, gravity formula & volume page cover
In my Option honestly I See Goku being not 10x Far more iffy despite these many logical consistency
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@DarkDragonMedeus I feel that there is no reasonable reason to dismiss the explicit 10x speed increase in the official Shonen Jump manga synopsis, which was the only sticking point with AKM. It is after all official and consistent with the manga as outlined above, and we accept secondary canon if it is consistent such as with Daizenshuu statements. The rest of the proposal outlined in the blog was universally accepted by anybody who commented on it, including by @AKM sama who agreed in retrospect that using a KKx4 Namek Goku to scale first form Frieza was reasonable, since we know he can use it from Saiyan Saga, but still had no chance according to Vegeta who feels Goku cannot come close to defeating Frieza, even knowing he has KKx4.
So respectfully I feel the scaling which is the most accurate while still being conservative is the blog which was created with the input from everybody involved in the thread, and agreed upon by most, aside from one minor discrepancy, and which has notes detailing all the decisions and scaling that is not already obvious.
So respectfully I feel the scaling which is the most accurate while still being conservative is the blog which was created with the input from everybody involved in the thread, and agreed upon by most, aside from one minor discrepancy, and which has notes detailing all the decisions and scaling that is not already obvious.
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At this point, they should have to prove the negative since the evidence for 10x is already laid out. There's also tons of objective proof that Goku absolutely dwarves the previous Kaioken x3 and 4 during the Saiyan Saga from feats, statements and scaling.
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Why not just scale him above the previous Kaioken x3 / x4, or above Jeice and Burter?
The volume synopsis has nothing from the manga itself backing that figure; it could easily be a figure of speech.
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Why would the words '10-fold' be a figure of speech? Also, there's lots to support it from the manga, namely the tremendous superiority over Kaioken x4 (he even has a 90,000 pl, compared to his ~36,000 PL in the previous saga) and the fact that the gravity was 10x higher than King Kai's planet.
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I mean Goku blitzes them so fast they couldn't even See his movements like he was standing still & what if I told you Goku was suppressed (like ginyu later said he was not going all out like he expected around he was showing 60,000 but his true PL is around 85,000 or so thats what he expected) against them on top of that + PL + Gravity formula + a direct statement from volume synopsis
Not giving him 10x Without any solid proof against them seems like headcanon to me
Not giving him 10x Without any solid proof against them seems like headcanon to me
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Okay. The staff consensus can probably be applied then, as long as AKM has mostly agreed, as was stated in another post.
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Bump
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@Antvasima
I don't mind applying the scaling outlined in my blog which I believe is agreed upon completely by the majority, and even by AKM aside from one minor point, if I'm getting the go ahead.
I don't mind applying the scaling outlined in my blog which I believe is agreed upon completely by the majority, and even by AKM aside from one minor point, if I'm getting the go ahead.
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I don't agree anymore because I changed my mind after seeing how this can be ridiculously abused with stacking multipliers over multipliers and reaching high MFTL+ speeds just with a relativistic feat, when nowhere in the series they have a solid FTL feat. Instead of doing something as ridiculous as that, simply rating them as "At least FTL+, likely much higher" is the best method. Multipliers can only take you to a level till where the extrapolation is acceptable, not till where everything goes out of hand and the statistics becomes a guesstimation game with nothing to show for it.
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I have similar thoughts on this.
Multipliers are all well and good, but a figure for a multiplier by itself is not solid evidence of the end result. We are also at the root of this basing this entire speed scaling chain on a single speed calculation.
How are we supposed to verify the consistency of all these multiplied values that reach all the way up to MFTL+?
Multipliers are all well and good, but a figure for a multiplier by itself is not solid evidence of the end result. We are also at the root of this basing this entire speed scaling chain on a single speed calculation.
How are we supposed to verify the consistency of all these multiplied values that reach all the way up to MFTL+?
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Couldn't the Watagash feat from Super be scaled to DBZ though? Pretty sure flying from another solar system to Earth is FTL and when the Watagash first merged with a human robber it gained a clear speed boost and could somewhat keep up with base Gohan Pre-ToP albeit Gohan later one-shot it. If we scale the DBS anime to the DBZ manga of course.
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@AKM sama @Damage3245
Rating them as "At least FTL+" is an arbitrary cap for the official and substantiated explicit speed multipliers. We use much higher multipliers such as a 250,000x multiplier for Mori Jin to jump him a tier, and the whole narrative around Dragon Ball is that they break their limits and become substantially stronger and faster, we just happen to have some numbers to quantify this increase. There is no reason to cap them at FTL+, unless you wanna claim the standards are multipliers are unusable, in which case we place them all as at least Relativisitc+, and revise all verses that use multipliers, or it becomes head canon of where they should cap out at and double standards. I should remind everybody that these are conservative numbers to.
Rating them as "At least FTL+" is an arbitrary cap for the official and substantiated explicit speed multipliers. We use much higher multipliers such as a 250,000x multiplier for Mori Jin to jump him a tier, and the whole narrative around Dragon Ball is that they break their limits and become substantially stronger and faster, we just happen to have some numbers to quantify this increase. There is no reason to cap them at FTL+, unless you wanna claim the standards are multipliers are unusable, in which case we place them all as at least Relativisitc+, and revise all verses that use multipliers, or it becomes head canon of where they should cap out at and double standards. I should remind everybody that these are conservative numbers to.
Stefano4444
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Neither we see any Star level to Solar System level feats, yet most agree that Cell can destroy a solar system and Shin can create stars.
Also saying that they reach high MFTL+ speed its false, considering no one breach the million of times FTL range.
That is just equally ridiculous and incorrect, putting everyone from SSj1 Goku to SSj1 Vegito at the same exactly rating don't make any sense.
This is not like with 4-B to 4-A where the gap its in the hundreds of billions of times, this its like a few thousands of times, far more reasonable.
Even if you don't like the Massively FTL+ rating, we still use Zamasu Chan's speed scaling that would still put Frieza Saga at Massively FTL.
Unless you also have a problem with that too.
We literally show all the freaking evidence to justify each speed increase, guesstimation game my a**.
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I agree with Ryu and Stefano
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What about the Watagash feat tho? Can that be scaled to DBZ?
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That isn't comparable. Cell and Shin don't use multipliers alone to reach that level. If we had a statement of Goku travelling at MFTL+ speeds, this would be a lot less of an issue.
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Logically its proven now we Throw every Evidence & made the logically conclusion , opposing that without Evidence is like headcanon to me
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Agreed. Not to mention we got stuff such as Invisible Dragon getting a 10^39 multiplier (jumping from like 7-B to a very high end 4-B) by a statement of him using 1/10^39 of his power for the feat.
And his 4th key has a multiplier of 5,783,458,765,666² times as well.
Simply ignoring accepted and canonical multipliers just because "I don't like these numbers" is unproffessional and looks pretty bad. While wank is bad, downplay is just as bad, especially when the multipliers got many evidences from the canonical manga.
Disclaimer: This is of course not a personal attack and I don't intend to call anyone a wanker or a downplayer.
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It’s not just multipliers. It’s massive multiplier chains with no real supporting feats, and many that actually contradict the scaling (Frieza’s Supernova, for example). There’s maybe a few feats I can think of (barring Piccolo and Roshi’s feats, obviously) that even come close to SoL, and they’re all from characters who far surpass final form Frieza.
Edit: For clarification, I’m referring to SS Gotenks circling the Earth many times in well underneath 28 minutes, Super Buu exterminating Humanity (which had been reduced to at most 20%), Kid Buu destroying the Earth, Buuhan shooting through the planet, SS3 Goku deflecting Buu’s attack, FPSS Goku avoiding Cell’s Kamehameha, and Grade 2 Vegeta’s Final Flash.
Edit 2: Actually, Tien and Chiaotzu dodged Buu's extermination attack. That could be a good feat.
God of High School and Touhou actually have a lot of supporting feats, such as punching Satan across the entire universe.
On another note, if we’re finally accepting the SS multiplier, we should integrate it into Attack Potency.
Edit: For clarification, I’m referring to SS Gotenks circling the Earth many times in well underneath 28 minutes, Super Buu exterminating Humanity (which had been reduced to at most 20%), Kid Buu destroying the Earth, Buuhan shooting through the planet, SS3 Goku deflecting Buu’s attack, FPSS Goku avoiding Cell’s Kamehameha, and Grade 2 Vegeta’s Final Flash.
Edit 2: Actually, Tien and Chiaotzu dodged Buu's extermination attack. That could be a good feat.
God of High School and Touhou actually have a lot of supporting feats, such as punching Satan across the entire universe.
On another note, if we’re finally accepting the SS multiplier, we should integrate it into Attack Potency.
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ZetaMarishi
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As I said before, Dragon Ball shows progression through power scaling. This means that it is far more up to interpretation as to how accurate things are. As far as I remember, Toriyama had legitimate difficulty actually making feats look impressive, hence why it's through power scaling rather than through stuff a bit closer to, say, some of the stuff in Dragon Ball Super (ie: Infinite Zamasu or the Gogeta vs Broly dimension) who are being handled to some extent by other people. (And as the opponents have described, they do not believe in multipliers substituting for this)
This is absolute downplay, but I can at least see why people would be assblasted by it. This also means that there is going to be no budging on either side, because you either buy into the power scaling, or you don't.
So, unfortunately, that's just gonna suck for anyone trying to prove either side.
This is absolute downplay, but I can at least see why people would be assblasted by it. This also means that there is going to be no budging on either side, because you either buy into the power scaling, or you don't.
So, unfortunately, that's just gonna suck for anyone trying to prove either side.
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Doesn't the FTL+ also originally come from my outdated version of the blog? It wouldn't be much different than the "At least FTL+, likely Far higher". The new up to date method for my version still puts them up to Massively FTL and even that's still lowballing. I agree that Massively FTL+ is reaching too much, but I see nothing against Massively FTL and even getting some At least, possibly far higher.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 183.36c scaling from 100% Frieza who is 2x 50% Frieza, who is equal to Kaioken x20 Goku. I only used Kaioken x4, Kaioken x2, and Kaioken x20; the ones he actually did for each fight and using respective zenkais. And I avoided all hypothetical 10x stronger statements via gravity formulas including the one advertised in the volume. Also heads up, it only said 10x stronger, not faster. But anyway, I still feel as if the one I have laid out and is currently being linked from the power of the verse section of the page is the least bad way to go.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 183.36c scaling from 100% Frieza who is 2x 50% Frieza, who is equal to Kaioken x20 Goku. I only used Kaioken x4, Kaioken x2, and Kaioken x20; the ones he actually did for each fight and using respective zenkais. And I avoided all hypothetical 10x stronger statements via gravity formulas including the one advertised in the volume. Also heads up, it only said 10x stronger, not faster. But anyway, I still feel as if the one I have laid out and is currently being linked from the power of the verse section of the page is the least bad way to go.
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I read the image again, and it included speed.
"...his strength and speed increased ten fold by training under 100 times Earth's gravity!"
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Okay, I retract that but even so. Other staff members tend to get strict when it comes to hypothetical statements like that, so I think the way I have them and some "At least, likely far higher" statements thrown in seems easier to accept.
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