DBZ Manga Upgrade (From the start of DBZ/Early Saiyan Saga)

[FireSwordHero]

Ok, so I've been doing some research done in DBZ manga and the DBZ anime, and after looking at some previous calculations I would like to suggest that Goku and Piccolo should be upgraded to 5A during the raditz saga or saiyan saga, as well as anyone that scales to them.

The reason I am suggesting this in both the DBZ Manga and Anime, Piccolo destroys the moon in order to revert Gohan from Great Ape back to normal, which in the anime version was calculated by Kepekly23 to be 5A. Granted, he did say it was non-canon feat exclusive to the anime...but its not.

Ok hear me out. Piccolo destroying the moon is the same feat that occurs in both the manga and the anime regardless of the calculations and is still something the anime matches the manga, so I would like to make the statement that despite the calculation being exclusive to the anime, it should also scale to the manga as its the same feat regardless. The anime feat of Piccolo destroying the moon is the exact same feat, but just...you know...animated. This does NOT mean that we would use any other anime feats to scale to manga goku, but I would argue that the Piccolo moon feat is still justifiable in giving Goku a 5A upgrade. This could be given during the Saiyan Saga Goku and Piccolo, but I could also argue that it could be given as early as start of DBZ Goku and Picolo, as the feat (regardless of anime/manga differences) was done EARLY into Piccolo's training (since the feat occured 6 nights into Gohan's training and since Goku's first death)

To further back up my claim, I can look to the Original DB Manga itself to justify this upgrade, despite not having any exact power increases/multipliers:

• The Moon Level tier that DBZ Manga Goku starts with scales to Master Roshi destroying the moon with a Kamehameha. This occurs when Roshi is in his MAX POWER form during the 22nd Budokai.
• King Piccolo is stated to be MUCH stronger than Master Roshi when he was Old and out of his prime. When Shenron restored his youth and returned him to his prime, he became much more stronger. Goku managed to defeat King Piccolo during the King Piccolo saga, meaning Goku is equal/superior to him.
• His son/reincarnation Piccolo could match Goku during the 23rd Budokai, when the latter was much older and also much stronger since the latter hadn't stopped training.
• 5 years then pass between the Original DB and DBZ. Since Goku is obsessed with training and getting stronger, it should be fair to assume that Goku's strength only increased during that period.

The point that I'm trying to make here is that Goku's Moon level scaling scales to a feat that is done (at least when looking at the timeline) VERY EARLY into his lifetime, and Goku himself had only gotten much stronger since the end of the original DB manga, so it wouldn't be unfair to say that Goku would be much stronger than the 5C feat he right now scales to...fortunately for us we already have a feat that could give him the upgrade he deserves.

As for possible counterpoints, I would like to give solid reasonings for why I think the upgrade is justified.

• Some might argue that Vegeta being capable of destroying the planet and Goku being weaker than Vegeta during their first fight would be reason to reject this upgrade. However, I would argue that just because Vegeta CAN destroy a planet doesn't mean that it should be the peak of his power. If anything that means he would be upgraded to be much stronger.
• Some might also aruge that Frieza casually destroying Planet Vegeta would be a reason to not allow the upgrade since he's already calculated as High 5A in this form. However, it should be noted that Frieza did this in his first form VERY CASUALLY, while this WAS done his first form, it is NOT the upper limit of his first form's power. Also the upgrade for Goku is 5A while frieza's feat is only High 5A, so even then Goku doesn't quite scale to First Form Freiza's level. (Even then Frieza's first form can be upgraded).
• Of course, this leads us to the biggest issue of all...Cell being Solar System level.

Ok lets break this up cause this is gonna needs its own discussion. I saw the whole blog post using the guide books and other explanations for why Cell is at that level, and with my suggested change it would definitely raise the tiers of all future key's to the point where there this post and the whole "Solar System Cell" thing would clash (assuming that this could upgrade Cell to 4A), since this change probably/maybe brings everyone to Toei levels of power (I realize this while writing this all down). However, I still have a few key points and explanations for why I think this upgrade is still justified.

• Cell is stated that he can destroy the Solar System, but I argue that his power could be even greater than that, but he and Gohan didn't realize it. After all, the story focuses more on the fact that Cell is putting the entire Solar system at risk (which also includes the Earth the he and Gohan are fighting on).
  • On that note, Cell never exactly managed to launch his attack at the sun (at least canonically), so his power potency of his Kamehameha could be higher than he even knew himself. Also, Cell at the time was, and I quote, "drunk on his own power" so he probably just lowballed his estimated power, since he tends to underestimate even other people's power levels.
• The original post also talks about the fact that the guidebooks place King Piccolo being city level despite The VS Battles community placing him at 5C, so even the guidebooks can have statements that contradict what is seen in the manga (though admittedly this same author also considers Roshi's Moon level Kamehameha to be PIS, so take this with a grain of salt).
• Even with future keys, SS transformations and other multipliers, the power increase has been shown multiple times in dragon ball to be non linear despite guidebook statements, as shown through various calculations and discussions, including the Cell Solar System level post.

So yeah, I think the DBZ manga version of Goku during the start of DBZ, as well as other characters that scale to him, should be upgraded to 5A, and that all subsequent keys be upgraded to reflect as such to account for this upgrade. I will admit there's a lot to discuss with this whole issue, and there's a good chance I missed something while doing my research, but I do think that overall I gave a rather justifiable explanation for this upgrade.

EDIT: In light of recent research and wanting to avoid possible ire, I've changed my post to instead argue for the idea that start of DBZ Goku and Piccolo should have a 5B rating. In this post calculating Piccolo's moon feat from the manga, it was calculated that Piccolo destroying the moon would equal about 70 Zettatons of TNT, which would put him and goku at Planet level, and even lowballing the feat would still place them at Small Planet Level (Low-5B) which is still much higher than their current 5C tiering. I will not remake the thread however as I feel that most of what I wrote here still stands regarding my justification for the upgrade, only this time in regards to a calculation that actually is part of the DBZ manga canon.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm against this being applied to the manga; just leave it for the anime version.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Naaah.

 

[MrHazama]

Interesting. I'll learn towards agree for now

 

[Vizer04]

Following, neutral for now.

 

[AguilaR202]

Wether or not we scale Piccolos moon buster at 17 Yottatons doesn’t change the scaling of Freeza as his 1st form feat is 4.89 tenatons or 4,890,000 yotattons.

 

[Sus]

I don't agree as even though they're the same feat, in the anime the debris traveled at high speeds where in the manga the moon simply disappeared

 

[FireSwordHero]

I don't agree as even though they're the same feat, in the anime the debris traveled at high speeds where in the manga the moon simply disappeared

I would still say the feat is the same for both manga and anime version for a few reasons

• The animation for the scene in the anime version (for the most part) copy's the manga version of events nearly picture for picture, minus the whole moon fragmenting thing. However I would argue that the events are still the same because it was likely the intended way for the moon to fragment the way it did in the anime. It's just that the fragmenting part skipped over that part because having to draw the moon fragmenting like that would take some time to draw in vivid detail. (Also wouldn't Piccolo vaporizing the moon be even stronger than just fragmenting it?)
  • Also in both the manga and anime, Piccolo seems to shield himself from the blast as the moon explodes, which I could argue that Piccolo was simply shielding himself from the falling debris. Otherwise if the moon was vaporized then Piccolo would have no need to try and cover his face.
• Even if my prior statements is be seen as sceptical, minor retcons aren't exactly new to the dbz manga. In the manga, Frieza was never shown destroying Planet Vegeta with a Supernova as it was an anime exclusive feat. Despite that, Frieza destroying Planet Vegeta with a supernova was eventually incorporated into the DBS anime, which was intended to be the proper sequel to the DBZ manga. The scene in the anime follows the manga version (mostly) point for point, so it wouldn't be too far fetched to say that the anime is faithful to the manga interpretation in this regard
  • On that note, Dragon Ball Kai, which was intended to be a faithful adaptation of the dragon ball manga, shows the exact same scene from the original anime, so if the moon fragmenting was not intended to be part of the anime, then the scene would have simply shown the moon disappearing/vaporized when Piccolo fired at it.
• In any case, Goku being 5C is still taken from an feat that occurred way before the start of the DBZ manga and long after Goku surpassed King Piccolo (and by extension Master Roshi), while Piccolo himself was capable of contending with Goku long after the latter surpassed his original incarnation. By that logic, Goku being 5A isn't as far fetched as you might think.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Cell is stated that he can destroy the Solar System, but I argue that his power could be even greater than that, but he and Gohan didn't realize it. After all, the story focuses more on the fact that Cell is putting the entire Solar system at risk (which also includes the Earth the he and Gohan are fighting on).

• On that note, Cell never exactly managed to launch his attack at the sun (at least canonically), so his power potency of his Kamehameha could be higher than he even knew himself. Also, Cell at the time was, and I quote, "drunk on his own power" so he probably just lowballed his estimated power, since he tends to underestimate even other people's power levels.

It's quite the paradox that Cell is somehow considered a solar system buster because of one offhand statement, but other DBZ characters with similar statements from more credible sources for that information have it completely ignored.

 

[KingTempest]

The fact that we split up the canons means that we can't cross scale or cross compare, so no

It's quite the paradox that Cell is somehow considered a solar system buster because of one offhand statement, but other DBZ characters with similar statements from more credible sources for that information have it completely ignored.

Cell's got declined a shit ton of times, requiring an entire blog to go through
Do your research

 

[Dalesean027]

Disagree FRA and I'm already doing calcs for the Dragon ball manga side of things even though its not for Z but still there's enough for a few upgrades already being able to be done for pilaf saga and 21st budokai level characters (more to come as I go on)

 

[KLOL506]

The fact that we split up the canons means that we can't cross scale or cross compare, so no

Cell's got declined a shit ton of times, requiring an entire blog to go through
Do your research

If I had a nickel for every ******* time people tried to argue that Cell's Solar System argument was made off of an off-hand statement I'd prolly only have 100 USD, which is not much to make a living on but it's still weird it's made a cricket century worth of runs at this point.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Cell's got declined a shit ton of times, requiring an entire blog to go through
Do your research

That blog cites literal anime promos and video games which I thought weren't valid, and the only canon information it actually proves is that Cell didn't intend to exaggerate, which can even be said for someone like Majin Buu too. In terms of being emphasized by the story or having reliability in the story, something like Buu destroying the Kaioshin Realm or destroying the universe is done so way more but this information isn't considered, so the special treatment given to Cell is quite interesting.

 

[FireSwordHero]

The fact that we split up the canons means that we can't cross scale or cross compare, so no

Except its no longer a cross comparison (though admittedly it took me a while to realize it as such)

The Dragon Ball Kai anime was meant to be a more faithful version of the DBZ manga in comparison to the original Toei anime. In that version of the anime, they still have Piccolo explode the moon into fragments. As Kai is meant to be true to manga material, it can be argued that this was the author's true intention and that the 5A upgrade is still justified. Otherwise, they would have removed it or changed it so that the moon simply disappeared.

 

[FireSwordHero]

Bump. But seriously I think this is worth talking about as currently all characters start of DBZ are scaled to a feat very early in DB history, and deserve a proper upgrade.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

"proper"

 

[FireSwordHero]

"proper"

It does though, and for a few good reasons.

• Start of DBZ goku's Moon Level tier is scaled his King Piccolo Saga Dragon Ball self, when he was much younger at the time and had gotten much stronger since that point. Having him still be Moon level despite his huge power increase is really selling him short on how strong he got up until that point.
• The moon being fragmented like in the toei version was still kept into DBZ Kai, which was overall meant to be a more faithful version of the original DBZ manga, so it can be argued that the author intended for the moon to fragment like that in the manga, but was left out due to it being uncessasary to show in the manga plot, as The moon was still destroyed regardless.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Start of DBZ goku's Moon Level tier is scaled his King Piccolo Saga Dragon Ball self, when he was much younger at the time and had gotten much stronger since that point. Having him still be Moon level despite his huge power increase is really selling him short on how strong he got up until that point.

Firstly, argument from incredulity.
Secondly, while Goku has admitted to "training hard", not only was his training apparently meaningless, as he gained nothing new during the five year period between the original and Z, but how powerful he got from training is unknown.

For all we know, Goku could have grown only 1.5x stronger than he was during the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament. Until an official statement detailing the difference between his strength then and his strength five years prior, or until concrete evidence of a feat great enough to breach into a higher tier, Goku remains 5-C, even after training. He is just further into baseline.

The moon being fragmented like in the toei version was still kept into DBZ Kai, which was overall meant to be a more faithful version of the original DBZ manga, so it can be argued that the author intended for the moon to fragment like that in the manga, but was left out due to it being uncessasary to show in the manga plot, as The moon was still destroyed regardless.

Yes, Kai trimmed and repurposed content from the Z anime to more closely resemble Toriyama's original, but whether or not Toriyama had any involvement in the anime has either been unreported or is a definitive no. How Toei decides to represent the original manga has zero effect on the contents of said original manga.

 

[Wagy]

Fairly convinced honestly, agree even if this is probably going nowhere

 

[Wagy]

Firstly, argument from incredulity.
Secondly, while Goku has admitted to "training hard", not only was his training apparently meaningless, as he gained nothing new during the five year period between the original and Z, but how powerful he got from training is unknown.

For all we know, Goku could have grown only 1.5x stronger than he was during the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament. Until an official statement detailing the difference between his strength then and his strength five years prior, or until concrete evidence of a feat great enough to breach into a higher tier, Goku remains 5-C, even after training. He is just further into baseline.

Yes, Kai trimmed and repurposed content from the Z anime to more closely resemble Toriyama's original, but whether or not Toriyama had any involvement in the anime has either been unreported or is a definitive no. How Toei decides to represent the original manga has zero effect on the contents of said original manga.

It should be noted however that throught the series even relatively small gaps in power level have been depicted as an incredible difference between fighters especially in the sayan saga.
Piccolo and Goku's fight against Raditz and Goku's first fight against Vegeta is a good example.

 

[FireSwordHero]

Firstly, argument from incredulity.
Secondly, while Goku has admitted to "training hard", not only was his training apparently meaningless, as he gained nothing new during the five year period between the original and Z, but how powerful he got from training is unknown.

Goku not getting any new techniques does not mean he hasn't gotten stronger or more skilled with what he already has.

For all we know, Goku could have grown only 1.5x stronger than he was during the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament.

I don't know the exact AP level of Roshi's Moon feat, but for the most part assuming that the feat was calculated to be around 300 exatons of TNT or greater, the multiplier would still result in Goku being Low-5B by that logic alone.

And don't forget, this feat is just from Roshi from the 22nd Budokai.

King Piccolo was stated to be much superior to Roshi even when the former was old, and became even stronger after having his youth restored, yet Goku was still able to defeat him even when King Piccolo was in his prime, and when Goku was extremely weakened as well due to his broken limbs. And this is before factoring the training Goku underwent leading up to the 23rd Budokai, or the subsequent gap in between DB and DBZ, and given Goku's nature to fight its hard to believe Goku didn't get stronger during that timeskip.

To give a brief summary: Roshi<<Old King Piccolo<<Young King Piccolo<<Goku (King Piccolo Saga)<<Goku (23rd Budokai)<<Goku (Start of DBZ)

The point is, the difference in power between the original moon feat Roshi did and Goku at the start of DBZ is so large that he legitimate shouldn't backscale from a feat done early in his story. In fact, I would say that between the beatings Goku went through the King Piccolo Saga and the injuries at the end of the 23rd Budokai (and thus the power increase through Zenkai's) and the training he underwent through during both timeskips, the multiplier should be even greater (or at least the 1.5 multiplier is applied 4 more times)

(Honestly though, after writing this I wouldn't mind if Goku was just upgraded to being Low-5B, but I still have more to say)

Until an official statement detailing the difference between his strength then and his strength five years prior, or until concrete evidence of a feat great enough to breach into a higher tier, Goku remains 5-C, even after training. He is just further into baseline.

Except that we have disregarded official statements before such the Super Saiyan multipliers, power levels and the like multiple times before, so why do we need an official statement to make a case for how much Goku's has grown stronger when he clearly has done so. By the end of the original DB he had already surpassed Roshi's 5C feat from 2 saga's ago, after multiple training sessions and Zenkai boosts.

Yes, Kai trimmed and repurposed content from the Z anime to more closely resemble Toriyama's original, but whether or not Toriyama had any involvement in the anime has either been unreported or is a definitive no. How Toei decides to represent the original manga has zero effect on the contents of said original manga.

Fair enough, but I still want to make a point on why my argument is still valid.

When Master Roshi's destroyed the moon in the original dragon ball manga, pieces of rock seem to fall out of the sky and onto krillin's head, suggesting that much like the Piccolo's "anime only" feat, Roshi's Kamehameha destroyed the moon by fragmenting it rather than vaporizing it like how most people saw Piccolo doing it. Not arguing for a high 5A roshi or anything that crazy, but I still would argue that it at least implied that Roshi's moon feat resulted in the fragmentation of the moon, and that by that logic Piccolo's own feat should be similar

Speaking of the moon, both times Roshi and Piccolo were shown destroying the moon in the manga, we never truly got to see how the moon itself was destroyed beyond a flash of light (and even in the DBZ manga we don't really see any fragments, with the white dots likely being stars). Since the only explanation we get for HOW the moon is destroyed comes from the anime (both the Toei and Kai version), its the only reliable explanation we have since the moon just disappears in the manga.

Also just a few more bits and pieces I want to mention

• Apparently Vaporizing something is much greater than fragmenting so by that logic Piccolo in the anime is weaker than the Piccolo in the manga lol (I don't know what this could mean, but Piccolo (and by extension Goku) is in no way 5C at the start of DBZ manga)
• As I was writing this I found that someone made a calc blog for Piccolo's moon busting feat in the manga and apparently the feat would put him at high end planet level (though he says low end I think it was a spelling error) and mid end small planet level (which I mentioned earlier would actually be more appropriate for start of DBZ goku and Piccolo).

 

[KingTempest]

Apparently Vaporizing something is much greater than fragmenting so by that logic Piccolo in the anime is weaker than the Piccolo in the manga lol (I don't know what this could mean, but Piccolo (and by extension Goku) is in no way 5C at the start of DBZ manga)

No

 

[FireSwordHero]

No

Destruction Values​

According to the method used within the Naruto Forums, there are different methods of Destruction (for lack of a better term) that require different levels of energy for every cubic centimeter of the volume that was destroyed during the feat:

Fragmentation: Applied when the matter that was destroyed was turned into fairly large and distinguishable pieces. The value is 8 joules per Cubic centimeter (J/cc).

Violent Fragmentation: Applied when the matter that was destroyed was turned into small but still distinguishable pieces. The value is 69 (J/cc).

Pulverization: Applied when the matter that was destroyed was turned to dust. We usually use this value when we see no remains of the matter that was destroyed in the aftermath of the attack. The value is 214 (J/cc).

Vaporisation: Applied when the matter that was destroyed was vaporised during the attack. Much like for Pulverization, we usually use this value when we see no remains of the matter that was destroyed in the attack, but in addition there has to be a considerable amount of visible vapor and/or character statements that imply vaporization, usually the latter. The value is 25700 (J/cc).

Manga implied Piccolo Vaporized/Pulverized the moon, while Anime suggests he fragmented it, but yeah you said no so that all checks out

Also fastest reply ive gotten lmao

 

[KingTempest]

All because you pull out a minor feat doesn't mean you're weaker

Maybe the technique in definition fragments something while the other one is a heat based move which vaporizes

 

[TioKill]

Vegeta's Planet level rating is hyped up by media constantly.

"You don't stand a chance Kakarot, there's no way you can stand up to my Galick Gun".
"Vegeta carries enough power to destroy the Earth".

Etc, etc. These are limiting, and we shouldn't pretend they're not. The fact he is planet level is very much written as something impossibly impressive.

 

[Vizer04]

I disagree, there's not enough evidence to suggest a rating higher than 5-C for Early DBZ characters.

 

[FireSwordHero]

Ok im going to pull back from the whole fragmenting vs vaporisation thing because its getting nowhere

Still though, even with the piccolos moon feat in the manga, it was calculated in this post here to equal around 70 zettatons of TNT, which would place Piccolo (and by extension goku) at Planet level (5B). Even if you were to lowball that feat it would still put early Goku and Piccolo at Small Planet Level (Low 5B).

Actually you know what? Forget the high 5A scaling for a moment, I'm arguing right now that Goku and Piccolo should be either 5B or Low-5B.

Vegeta's Planet level rating is hyped up by media constantly.

"You don't stand a chance Kakarot, there's no way you can stand up to my Galick Gun".
"Vegeta carries enough power to destroy the Earth".

Etc, etc. These are limiting, and we shouldn't pretend they're not. The fact he is planet level is very much written as something impossibly impressive.

I would disagree on this statement that just because Vegeta is Planet Level doesn't Goku and Piccolo aren't.

First of all, Even with the Statements made by guides and even comments made by characters inside the manga, it doesn't change the fact that these statements are still invalidated by the calculation of Piccolo's feat itself. Sometimes the writers can just be...wrong when it comes to statements, and it can occur in other works outside of dragon ball as well, such as in the DC comics where once flash's speed was calculated by the writer to be far lower than what was needed to pull off the feat he was currently doing (I think it was saving a bunch of people one at a time, cant remember.)

Also Author intention shouldn't be used in this argument because it was well known that Akira Toriyama was more or less someone who wrote stuff as he went along (which is why the DBZ anime has many contradictions due to the lack of material from Toriyama)

Thirdly, Vegeta being able to destroy a planet doesnt mean that his power level can't be greater than Goku's and Piccolo's. It just means that Vegeta is on the higher end of 5B, or perhaps even 5A. Hell, with Freiza's feat of destroying Planet Vegeta being calculated as High 5A, you could make the point that Vegeta downscales from a casual first from Frieza, and it would still work while not contradicting the statement you've shown (though I would like to see the scans if possible though).

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Ok, so I've been doing some research done in DBZ manga and the DBZ anime, and after looking at some previous calculations I would like to suggest that Goku and Piccolo should be upgraded to 5A during the raditz saga or saiyan saga, as well as anyone that scales to them.

The reason I am suggesting this in both the DBZ Manga and Anime, Piccolo destroys the moon in order to revert Gohan from Great Ape back to normal, which in the anime version was calculated by Kepekly23 to be 5A. Granted, he did say it was non-canon feat exclusive to the anime...but its not.

Ok hear me out. Piccolo destroying the moon is the same feat that occurs in both the manga and the anime regardless of the calculations and is still something the anime matches the manga, so I would like to make the statement that despite the calculation being exclusive to the anime, it should also scale to the manga as its the same feat regardless. The anime feat of Piccolo destroying the moon is the exact same feat, but just...you know...animated. This does NOT mean that we would use any other anime feats to scale to manga goku, but I would argue that the Piccolo moon feat is still justifiable in giving Goku a 5A upgrade. This could be given during the Saiyan Saga Goku and Piccolo, but I could also argue that it could be given as early as start of DBZ Goku and Picolo, as the feat (regardless of anime/manga differences) was done EARLY into Piccolo's training (since the feat occured 6 nights into Gohan's training and since Goku's first death)

To further back up my claim, I can look to the Original DB Manga itself to justify this upgrade, despite not having any exact power increases/multipliers:

• The Moon Level tier that DBZ Manga Goku starts with scales to Master Roshi destroying the moon with a Kamehameha. This occurs when Roshi is in his MAX POWER form during the 22nd Budokai.
• King Piccolo is stated to be MUCH stronger than Master Roshi when he was Old and out of his prime. When Shenron restored his youth and returned him to his prime, he became much more stronger. Goku managed to defeat King Piccolo during the King Piccolo saga, meaning Goku is equal/superior to him.
• His son/reincarnation Piccolo could match Goku during the 23rd Budokai, when the latter was much older and also much stronger since the latter hadn't stopped training.
• 5 years then pass between the Original DB and DBZ. Since Goku is obsessed with training and getting stronger, it should be fair to assume that Goku's strength only increased during that period.

The point that I'm trying to make here is that Goku's Moon level scaling scales to a feat that is done (at least when looking at the timeline) VERY EARLY into his lifetime, and Goku himself had only gotten much stronger since the end of the original DB manga, so it wouldn't be unfair to say that Goku would be much stronger than the 5C feat he right now scales to...fortunately for us we already have a feat that could give him the upgrade he deserves.

As for possible counterpoints, I would like to give solid reasonings for why I think the upgrade is justified.

• Some might argue that Vegeta being capable of destroying the planet and Goku being weaker than Vegeta during their first fight would be reason to reject this upgrade. However, I would argue that just because Vegeta CAN destroy a planet doesn't mean that it should be the peak of his power. If anything that means he would be upgraded to be much stronger.
• Some might also aruge that Frieza casually destroying Planet Vegeta would be a reason to not allow the upgrade since he's already calculated as High 5A in this form. However, it should be noted that Frieza did this in his first form VERY CASUALLY, while this WAS done his first form, it is NOT the upper limit of his first form's power. Also the upgrade for Goku is 5A while frieza's feat is only High 5A, so even then Goku doesn't quite scale to First Form Freiza's level. (Even then Frieza's first form can be upgraded).
• Of course, this leads us to the biggest issue of all...Cell being Solar System level.

Ok lets break this up cause this is gonna needs its own discussion. I saw the whole blog post using the guide books and other explanations for why Cell is at that level, and with my suggested change it would definitely raise the tiers of all future key's to the point where there this post and the whole "Solar System Cell" thing would clash (assuming that this could upgrade Cell to 4A), since this change probably/maybe brings everyone to Toei levels of power (I realize this while writing this all down). However, I still have a few key points and explanations for why I think this upgrade is still justified.

• Cell is stated that he can destroy the Solar System, but I argue that his power could be even greater than that, but he and Gohan didn't realize it. After all, the story focuses more on the fact that Cell is putting the entire Solar system at risk (which also includes the Earth the he and Gohan are fighting on).
  • On that note, Cell never exactly managed to launch his attack at the sun (at least canonically), so his power potency of his Kamehameha could be higher than he even knew himself. Also, Cell at the time was, and I quote, "drunk on his own power" so he probably just lowballed his estimated power, since he tends to underestimate even other people's power levels.
• The original post also talks about the fact that the guidebooks place King Piccolo being city level despite The VS Battles community placing him at 5C, so even the guidebooks can have statements that contradict what is seen in the manga (though admittedly this same author also considers Roshi's Moon level Kamehameha to be PIS, so take this with a grain of salt).
• Even with future keys, SS transformations and other multipliers, the power increase has been shown multiple times in dragon ball to be non linear despite guidebook statements, as shown through various calculations and discussions, including the Cell Solar System level post.

So yeah, I think the DBZ manga version of Goku during the start of DBZ, as well as other characters that scale to him, should be upgraded to 5A, and that all subsequent keys be upgraded to reflect as such to account for this upgrade. I will admit there's a lot to discuss with this whole issue, and there's a good chance I missed something while doing my research, but I do think that overall I gave a rather justifiable explanation for this upgrade.

EDIT: In light of recent research and wanting to avoid possible ire, I've changed my post to instead argue for the idea that start of DBZ Goku and Piccolo should have a 5B rating. In this post calculating Piccolo's moon feat from the manga, it was calculated that Piccolo destroying the moon would equal about 70 Zettatons of TNT, which would put him and goku at Planet level, and even lowballing the feat would still place them at Small Planet Level (Low-5B) which is still much higher than their current 5C tiering. I will not remake the thread however as I feel that most of what I wrote here still stands regarding my justification for the upgrade, only this time in regards to a calculation that actually is part of the DBZ manga canon.

bro, I can't read your topic because of those dashes on top of the letters, it's very difficult to understand.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Ok, so I've been doing some research done in DBZ manga and the DBZ anime, and after looking at some previous calculations I would like to suggest that Goku and Piccolo should be upgraded to 5A during the raditz saga or saiyan saga, as well as anyone that scales to them.

The reason I am suggesting this in both the DBZ Manga and Anime, Piccolo destroys the moon in order to revert Gohan from Great Ape back to normal, which in the anime version was calculated by Kepekly23 to be 5A. Granted, he did say it was non-canon feat exclusive to the anime...but its not.

Ok hear me out. Piccolo destroying the moon is the same feat that occurs in both the manga and the anime regardless of the calculations and is still something the anime matches the manga, so I would like to make the statement that despite the calculation being exclusive to the anime, it should also scale to the manga as its the same feat regardless. The anime feat of Piccolo destroying the moon is the exact same feat, but just...you know...animated. This does NOT mean that we would use any other anime feats to scale to manga goku, but I would argue that the Piccolo moon feat is still justifiable in giving Goku a 5A upgrade. This could be given during the Saiyan Saga Goku and Piccolo, but I could also argue that it could be given as early as start of DBZ Goku and Picolo, as the feat (regardless of anime/manga differences) was done EARLY into Piccolo's training (since the feat occured 6 nights into Gohan's training and since Goku's first death)

To further back up my claim, I can look to the Original DB Manga itself to justify this upgrade, despite not having any exact power increases/multipliers:

• The Moon Level tier that DBZ Manga Goku starts with scales to Master Roshi destroying the moon with a Kamehameha. This occurs when Roshi is in his MAX POWER form during the 22nd Budokai.
• King Piccolo is stated to be MUCH stronger than Master Roshi when he was Old and out of his prime. When Shenron restored his youth and returned him to his prime, he became much more stronger. Goku managed to defeat King Piccolo during the King Piccolo saga, meaning Goku is equal/superior to him.
• His son/reincarnation Piccolo could match Goku during the 23rd Budokai, when the latter was much older and also much stronger since the latter hadn't stopped training.
• 5 years then pass between the Original DB and DBZ. Since Goku is obsessed with training and getting stronger, it should be fair to assume that Goku's strength only increased during that period.

The point that I'm trying to make here is that Goku's Moon level scaling scales to a feat that is done (at least when looking at the timeline) VERY EARLY into his lifetime, and Goku himself had only gotten much stronger since the end of the original DB manga, so it wouldn't be unfair to say that Goku would be much stronger than the 5C feat he right now scales to...fortunately for us we already have a feat that could give him the upgrade he deserves.

As for possible counterpoints, I would like to give solid reasonings for why I think the upgrade is justified.

• Some might argue that Vegeta being capable of destroying the planet and Goku being weaker than Vegeta during their first fight would be reason to reject this upgrade. However, I would argue that just because Vegeta CAN destroy a planet doesn't mean that it should be the peak of his power. If anything that means he would be upgraded to be much stronger.
• Some might also aruge that Frieza casually destroying Planet Vegeta would be a reason to not allow the upgrade since he's already calculated as High 5A in this form. However, it should be noted that Frieza did this in his first form VERY CASUALLY, while this WAS done his first form, it is NOT the upper limit of his first form's power. Also the upgrade for Goku is 5A while frieza's feat is only High 5A, so even then Goku doesn't quite scale to First Form Freiza's level. (Even then Frieza's first form can be upgraded).
• Of course, this leads us to the biggest issue of all...Cell being Solar System level.

Ok lets break this up cause this is gonna needs its own discussion. I saw the whole blog post using the guide books and other explanations for why Cell is at that level, and with my suggested change it would definitely raise the tiers of all future key's to the point where there this post and the whole "Solar System Cell" thing would clash (assuming that this could upgrade Cell to 4A), since this change probably/maybe brings everyone to Toei levels of power (I realize this while writing this all down). However, I still have a few key points and explanations for why I think this upgrade is still justified.

• Cell is stated that he can destroy the Solar System, but I argue that his power could be even greater than that, but he and Gohan didn't realize it. After all, the story focuses more on the fact that Cell is putting the entire Solar system at risk (which also includes the Earth the he and Gohan are fighting on).
  • On that note, Cell never exactly managed to launch his attack at the sun (at least canonically), so his power potency of his Kamehameha could be higher than he even knew himself. Also, Cell at the time was, and I quote, "drunk on his own power" so he probably just lowballed his estimated power, since he tends to underestimate even other people's power levels.
• The original post also talks about the fact that the guidebooks place King Piccolo being city level despite The VS Battles community placing him at 5C, so even the guidebooks can have statements that contradict what is seen in the manga (though admittedly this same author also considers Roshi's Moon level Kamehameha to be PIS, so take this with a grain of salt).
• Even with future keys, SS transformations and other multipliers, the power increase has been shown multiple times in dragon ball to be non linear despite guidebook statements, as shown through various calculations and discussions, including the Cell Solar System level post.

So yeah, I think the DBZ manga version of Goku during the start of DBZ, as well as other characters that scale to him, should be upgraded to 5A, and that all subsequent keys be upgraded to reflect as such to account for this upgrade. I will admit there's a lot to discuss with this whole issue, and there's a good chance I missed something while doing my research, but I do think that overall I gave a rather justifiable explanation for this upgrade.

EDIT: In light of recent research and wanting to avoid possible ire, I've changed my post to instead argue for the idea that start of DBZ Goku and Piccolo should have a 5B rating. In this post calculating Piccolo's moon feat from the manga, it was calculated that Piccolo destroying the moon would equal about 70 Zettatons of TNT, which would put him and goku at Planet level, and even lowballing the feat would still place them at Small Planet Level (Low-5B) which is still much higher than their current 5C tiering. I will not remake the thread however as I feel that most of what I wrote here still stands regarding my justification for the upgrade, only this time in regards to a calculation that actually is part of the DBZ manga canon.

I agree

 

[FireSwordHero]

bro, I can't read your topic because of those dashes on top of the letters, it's very difficult to understand.

Yeah I made a change to my post. I'm now arguing for a 5B Goku and Piccolo at the start of DBZ rather than 5A as aside from the fact that it would be more fair, its also much easier to justify to due it using a calculation done from the original DBZ manga. The crossed out words are simply to show that I'm not using that explanation anymore, though everything else I said is still valid for my argument.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Yeah I made a change to my post. I'm now arguing for a 5B Goku and Piccolo at the start of DBZ rather than 5A as aside from the fact that it would be more fair, its also much easier to justify to due it using a caluclation done from the original DBZ manga.

I agree with that, thank you very much for doing this, I find 5-B in DBZ very attractive

 

[TioKill]

Ok im going to pull back from the whole fragmenting vs vaporisation thing because its getting nowhere

Still though, even with the piccolos moon feat in the manga, it was calculated in this post here to equal around 70 zettatons of TNT, which would place Piccolo (and by extension goku) at Planet level (5B). Even if you were to lowball that feat it would still put early Goku and Piccolo at Small Planet Level (Low 5B).

Actually you know what? Forget the high 5A scaling for a moment, I'm arguing right now that Goku and Piccolo should be either 5B or Low-5B.


I would disagree on this statement that just because Vegeta is Planet Level doesn't Goku and Piccolo aren't.

First of all, Even with the Statements made by guides and even comments made by characters inside the manga, it doesn't change the fact that these statements are still invalidated by the calculation of Piccolo's feat itself. Sometimes the writers can just be...wrong when it comes to statements, and it can occur in other works outside of dragon ball as well, such as in the DC comics where once flash's speed was calculated by the writer to be far lower than what was needed to pull off the feat he was currently doing (I think it was saving a bunch of people one at a time, cant remember.)

Also Author intention shouldn't be used in this argument because it was well known that Akira Toriyama was more or less someone who wrote stuff as he went along (which is why the DBZ anime has many contradictions due to the lack of material from Toriyama)

Thirdly, Vegeta being able to destroy a planet doesnt mean that his power level can't be greater than Goku's and Piccolo's. It just means that Vegeta is on the higher end of 5B, or perhaps even 5A. Hell, with Freiza's feat of destroying Planet Vegeta being calculated as High 5A, you could make the point that Vegeta downscales from a casual first from Frieza, and it would still work while not contradicting the statement you've shown (though I would like to see the scans if possible though).

Statements take major priority over fan-calculations, not the contrary, unless we have an overwhelming evidence on calculations that outweigh the statement, this isn't the case.
If the author, manga and powerscale of the series states, writes and treates Vegeta as a planet level only, he is planet level, end of story.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Statements take major priority over fan-calculations, not the contrary, unless we have an overwhelming evidence on calculations that outweigh the statement, this isn't the case.
If the author, manga and powerscale of the series states, writes and treates Vegeta as a planet level only, he is planet level, end of story.

By this logic we should downgrade 5-A anime to 5-C

 

[TioKill]

By this logic we should downgrade 5-A anime to 5-C

5-B*, and no, King Vegeta has a High 5-A feat as well, iirc, in this case planet level statements is underestimating a lot of the anime cast, and are only that because the anime is basically obligated to adapt it's weaker counterpart.

DBZ Manga has no 5-A feat by the Saiyan Saga, and the moon busting feat isn't shown to be 5-A via KE like the anime version, the feat is pretty much implied to be just 5-C, and thus shall stay at that. You pretty much depend on the fact the anime has debris and details not present in the manga to upgrade it to 5-A when 5-B is simply the most consistent at that point in time - and given how the anime is often so distinct from the manga in terms of scaling and feats, we shouldn't cross-scale them unless if it's something as trivial as timeframes (and the feat is identical, which it isn't in this case)

 

[FireSwordHero]

Statements take major priority over fan-calculations, not the contrary, unless we have an overwhelming evidence on calculations that outweigh the statement, this isn't the case.
If the author, manga and powerscale of the series states, writes and treates Vegeta as a planet level only, he is planet level, end of story.

Like hell it's the end of the story.

Vegeta may be stated to "have the power to destroy the Earth" but it doesn't mean that he's the only one exclusive to that tier by logic of "Oh if Vegeta is 5B then everyone else must be 5C":

• Vegeta having the power to destroy the earth doesn't mean that's the upper limit of his power, it just means that his power level is at LEAST planet level.
• Even if Vegeta doesn't have power greater than Planet Level, he's still show charging up his Galick Gun in the DBZ manga. This is important because characters in Dragon Ball can increase the power of their attacks by focusing and concentrating their ki, like with how Piccolo was able to kill Raditz at the start of DBZ despite the difference in their power being very wide at that point (ey 5B Raditz lmao). So if anything, that just means his attack could have been much stronger than his 5B rating.
  • For further proof, Goku could keep up with Vegeta using Kaio-Ken x3, but when faced with Vegeta's Galick Gun, he had to use x4 in order to match Vegeta's power despite x3 being ok before, suggesting that the Galick Gun was even stronger than Vegeta himself.
• Also 5B isn't an exclusive tier. The calculation I explained about earlier had Piccolo's power at 70 Zettatons of TNT, which would actually put him at the low end of the tier as 5B can range anywhere from 59.44 Zettatons to 2.7 Yottatons. So if anything that doesn't break any particular rule sets, its just means that Vegeta's AP is likely at the higher ends.

 

[TioKill]

"Oh if Vegeta is 5B then everyone else must be 5C"

You're fighting ghosts that aren't real, wake up.
I never said anything even remotely close to that. I'm denying the 5-A rating for a much weaker character because Vegeta being 5-B is a major plot point in the manga, and because the details for the 5-A calc are anime only.

 

[FireSwordHero]

You're fighting ghosts that aren't real, wake up.
I never said anything even remotely close to that. I'm denying the 5-A rating for a much weaker character because Vegeta being 5-B is a major plot point in the manga, and because the details for the 5-A calc are anime only.

Read the original post, I already changed my explanation to have Goku and Piccolo be 5B rather than 5A. I still somewhat think that 5A could be possible, but im happy for the most part to have them be 5B as we already have a calculation that, aside from being a much needed upgrade, is still canon and doesnt break the whole Vegeta Planet Level thing.

 

[TioKill]

Ok, so I've been doing some research done in DBZ manga and the DBZ anime, and after looking at some previous calculations I would like to suggest that Goku and Piccolo should be upgraded to 5A during the raditz saga or saiyan saga, as well as anyone that scales to them.

The reason I am suggesting this in both the DBZ Manga and Anime, Piccolo destroys the moon in order to revert Gohan from Great Ape back to normal, which in the anime version was calculated by Kepekly23 to be 5A. Granted, he did say it was non-canon feat exclusive to the anime...but its not.

Ok hear me out. Piccolo destroying the moon is the same feat that occurs in both the manga and the anime regardless of the calculations and is still something the anime matches the manga, so I would like to make the statement that despite the calculation being exclusive to the anime, it should also scale to the manga as its the same feat regardless. The anime feat of Piccolo destroying the moon is the exact same feat, but just...you know...animated. This does NOT mean that we would use any other anime feats to scale to manga goku, but I would argue that the Piccolo moon feat is still justifiable in giving Goku a 5A upgrade. This could be given during the Saiyan Saga Goku and Piccolo, but I could also argue that it could be given as early as start of DBZ Goku and Picolo, as the feat (regardless of anime/manga differences) was done EARLY into Piccolo's training (since the feat occured 6 nights into Gohan's training and since Goku's first death)

To further back up my claim, I can look to the Original DB Manga itself to justify this upgrade, despite not having any exact power increases/multipliers:

• The Moon Level tier that DBZ Manga Goku starts with scales to Master Roshi destroying the moon with a Kamehameha. This occurs when Roshi is in his MAX POWER form during the 22nd Budokai.
• King Piccolo is stated to be MUCH stronger than Master Roshi when he was Old and out of his prime. When Shenron restored his youth and returned him to his prime, he became much more stronger. Goku managed to defeat King Piccolo during the King Piccolo saga, meaning Goku is equal/superior to him.
• His son/reincarnation Piccolo could match Goku during the 23rd Budokai, when the latter was much older and also much stronger since the latter hadn't stopped training.
• 5 years then pass between the Original DB and DBZ. Since Goku is obsessed with training and getting stronger, it should be fair to assume that Goku's strength only increased during that period.

The point that I'm trying to make here is that Goku's Moon level scaling scales to a feat that is done (at least when looking at the timeline) VERY EARLY into his lifetime, and Goku himself had only gotten much stronger since the end of the original DB manga, so it wouldn't be unfair to say that Goku would be much stronger than the 5C feat he right now scales to...fortunately for us we already have a feat that could give him the upgrade he deserves.

As for possible counterpoints, I would like to give solid reasonings for why I think the upgrade is justified.

• Some might argue that Vegeta being capable of destroying the planet and Goku being weaker than Vegeta during their first fight would be reason to reject this upgrade. However, I would argue that just because Vegeta CAN destroy a planet doesn't mean that it should be the peak of his power. If anything that means he would be upgraded to be much stronger.
• Some might also aruge that Frieza casually destroying Planet Vegeta would be a reason to not allow the upgrade since he's already calculated as High 5A in this form. However, it should be noted that Frieza did this in his first form VERY CASUALLY, while this WAS done his first form, it is NOT the upper limit of his first form's power. Also the upgrade for Goku is 5A while frieza's feat is only High 5A, so even then Goku doesn't quite scale to First Form Freiza's level. (Even then Frieza's first form can be upgraded).
• Of course, this leads us to the biggest issue of all...Cell being Solar System level.

Ok lets break this up cause this is gonna needs its own discussion. I saw the whole blog post using the guide books and other explanations for why Cell is at that level, and with my suggested change it would definitely raise the tiers of all future key's to the point where there this post and the whole "Solar System Cell" thing would clash (assuming that this could upgrade Cell to 4A), since this change probably/maybe brings everyone to Toei levels of power (I realize this while writing this all down). However, I still have a few key points and explanations for why I think this upgrade is still justified.

• Cell is stated that he can destroy the Solar System, but I argue that his power could be even greater than that, but he and Gohan didn't realize it. After all, the story focuses more on the fact that Cell is putting the entire Solar system at risk (which also includes the Earth the he and Gohan are fighting on).
  • On that note, Cell never exactly managed to launch his attack at the sun (at least canonically), so his power potency of his Kamehameha could be higher than he even knew himself. Also, Cell at the time was, and I quote, "drunk on his own power" so he probably just lowballed his estimated power, since he tends to underestimate even other people's power levels.
• The original post also talks about the fact that the guidebooks place King Piccolo being city level despite The VS Battles community placing him at 5C, so even the guidebooks can have statements that contradict what is seen in the manga (though admittedly this same author also considers Roshi's Moon level Kamehameha to be PIS, so take this with a grain of salt).
• Even with future keys, SS transformations and other multipliers, the power increase has been shown multiple times in dragon ball to be non linear despite guidebook statements, as shown through various calculations and discussions, including the Cell Solar System level post.

So yeah, I think the DBZ manga version of Goku during the start of DBZ, as well as other characters that scale to him, should be upgraded to 5A, and that all subsequent keys be upgraded to reflect as such to account for this upgrade. I will admit there's a lot to discuss with this whole issue, and there's a good chance I missed something while doing my research, but I do think that overall I gave a rather justifiable explanation for this upgrade.

EDIT: In light of recent research and wanting to avoid possible ire, I've changed my post to instead argue for the idea that start of DBZ Goku and Piccolo should have a 5B rating. In this post calculating Piccolo's moon feat from the manga, it was calculated that Piccolo destroying the moon would equal about 70 Zettatons of TNT, which would put him and goku at Planet level, and even lowballing the feat would still place them at Small Planet Level (Low-5B) which is still much higher than their current 5C tiering. I will not remake the thread however as I feel that most of what I wrote here still stands regarding my justification for the upgrade, only this time in regards to a calculation that actually is part of the DBZ manga canon.

Oh, okay.
Then we have another problem: The calculation is god awful.
Presuming the entire mass was scattered without suffering any sort of alteration in matter due to the sheer energy to destroy iy is humorous, a big problem even the 5-A calc has. How much of it was vaporized? How much of it was actually scattered?

None by the looks of the manga. You're gonna have an easier time arguing for pulverization.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

5-B*, and no, King Vegeta has a High 5-A feat as well, iirc, in this case planet level statements is underestimating a lot of the anime cast, and are only that because the anime is basically obligated to adapt it's weaker counterpart.

DBZ Manga has no 5-A feat by the Saiyan Saga, and the moon busting feat isn't shown to be 5-A via KE like the anime version, the feat is pretty much implied to be just 5-C, and thus shall stay at that. You pretty much depend on the fact the anime has debris and details not present in the manga to upgrade it to 5-A when 5-B is simply the most consistent at that point in time - and given how the anime is often so distinct from the manga in terms of scaling and feats, we shouldn't cross-scale them unless if it's something as trivial as timeframes (and the feat is identical, which it isn't in this case)

He’s saying 5-B for manga

 

[TioKill]

He’s saying 5-B for manga

And I'm saying, "No, it's dumb. Calc also makes weird assumptions".
No one weaker than Vegeta is 5-B.