DBS/Goku Revisions

[Golden_Void]

>The gap between the weakest and the largest 3-A is infinite. The size of the full universe doesn't matter.

You are aware that our 3-A tier only accounts for the observable universe, and destroying the entirety of U7 (not just the mortal realm) is at least Low 2-C? If you're denying that the mortal universe =/= the observable universe then that's another problem.

>How? And literally every other instance the Otherworld has the exact same flow of time as the living world. Taking a statement out of context to imply something that is never even suggested or properly represented in-universe is not a good analysis.

I meant with scans, but regardless as I've been stating, Goku and Beerus would've destroyed the entirety of U7, so this isn't really relevant anymore.

"With this logic, the World of Void has space-time (despite Grand Priests inventions with time)"

It has.

"due to the fact that it's literally stated to be filled with "infinite nothingness" despite having air, etc."

It has air, etc. Which just goes to show that interpreting void as "Absolutely nothingness" in DB is wrong.

"They're even floating and breathing in the post-erasure Future U7"

Which does make 2-C generous. You could use those as arguments for space-time not being destroyed (Specially since they could time-travel to that timeline, which makes 0 sense if the timeline was destroyed).

It doesn't, as explicitly stated. Reality warping, matter manipulation and lack of logic doesn't change that.

I can't name a work of fiction that doesn't have characters doing things like talking in a void, when they shouldn't be able to.

Or that's just how they choose to depict a void. The time machine thing doesn't make sense either, but it happened.

>Wow, this is such a leap in logic that borders on non-sequitur.

It's common sense and common knowledge.

Even with your definition of nothingness, something exists, the opposite of that is nothing exists. Google nothingness, literally every definition basically says "the absence of existence"

Vacuum itself by definition already states there's nothing inside of it. U7 would've been gone. It alligns with the multiple statements of the universe itself being destroyed, plus Vados's statement of U6 and U7 being destroyed if Champa and Beerus fought.

Gowasu stated he was becoming one with the universe, which he did. He never got the chance to go into Present U7, not the Future timeline.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"You are aware that our 3-A tier only accounts for the observable universe, and destroying the entirety of U7 (not just the mortal realm) is at least Low 2-C? If you're denying that the mortal universe =/= the observable universe then that's another problem."

???

The Observable Univrse is the lowest possible bound for 3-A. It goes on to infinity as the size of the universe increases, and becomes High 3-A for universes of infinite size.

"I meant with scans, but regardless as I've been stating, Goku and Beerus would've destroyed the entirety of U7, so this isn't really relevant anymore."

Yes, a 3-A feat.

"It doesn't, as explicitly stated. Reality warping, matter manipulation and lack of logic doesn't change that."

>World of Void has 0 time >Somehow they can measure time in it.

This is more than people breathing or talking or moving inside a void without space-time, this is a blatant contradiction of the statement. The World of Void most likely has space and time.

"Or that's just how they choose to depict a void. The time machine thing doesn't make sense either, but it happened."

Your only argument is "Makes no sense, but it happened". Meanwhile, I look at the thing and am analyzing what really happened.

What makes more sense in this example?

>Zeno nuked the timeline but they were able to travel to the timeline because **** logic >Zeno didn't nuked the timeline, just everything in it

Regardless, I agree that Zeno is 2-C but your arguments aren't helping.

"It's common sense and common knowledge."

No it isn't. You are wanking the words to their highest definition. Void and Nothingness in Battle of Gods = Vacuum of space. That's it.

"Even with your definition of nothingness, something exists, the opposite of that is nothing exists. Google nothingness, literally every definition basically says "the absence of existence""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing

"Nothing is a concept denoting the absence of something, and is associated with nothingness.[1] In nontechnical uses, nothing denotes things lacking importance, interest, value, relevance, or significance.[1] Nothingness is the state of being nothing."

Nothingness can mean more than what you are suggesting. You are wrong and is simply using a possible definition to suggest something which blatantly contradicts the depicted events and scale of things. Space-time were never shown to be going to be destroyed.

"Vacuum itself by definition already states there's nothing inside of it. U7 would've been gone. It alligns with the multiple statements of the universe itself being destroyed, plus Vados's statement of U6 and U7 being destroyed if Champa and Beerus fought."

The universe being destroyed = 3-A. It would have been reduced to an empty void, a vacuum. No evidence of space-time being destroyed, no matter how much you want to abuse the meaning of "Nothingness".

"Gowasu stated he was becoming one with the universe, which he did. He never got the chance to go into Present U7, not the Future timeline."

He was in the process of becoming one with the universe but was destroyed before he did. Don't be dishonest. We were never given evidence that he fully merged with the universe.

 

[Golden_Void]

>"Nothing is a concept denoting the absence of something, and is associated with nothingness.[1] In nontechnical uses, nothing denotes things lacking importance, interest, value, relevance, or significance.[1] Nothingness is the state of being nothing."

Definition 1 makes no sense here, definition 2 needs elaboration. The very next sentence says "Nothingness is the state of being nothing,[2] the state of nonexistence of anything, or the property of having nothing." That seems much better. That is what it is, after all.

>The universe being destroyed = 3-A. It would have been reduced to an empty void, a vacuum. No evidence of space-time being destroyed, no matter how much you want to abuse the meaning of "Nothingness".

>No it isn't. You are wanking the words to their highest definition. Void and Nothingness in Battle of Gods = Vacuum of space. That's it.

Except I already showed how at the bare minimum, Zeno destroying Zamasu and thus U7 was clear Destruction of time and space. Goku and Beerus were capable of destroying the universe itself, backed by multiple people. The wiki even agreed on Kelfa stating she feel like she could one-shot a universe as partial justification for Low 2-C.

Vacuum of space is redundant. Vacuum of nothingness literally states that nothing will be there. The only semantics that are really in DBS is "world" and "destruction", as destruction can be directly interpeted (and most often is) as existence erasure.

>What makes more sense in this example?

>Zeno nuked the timeline but they were able to travel to the timeline because **** logic >Zeno didn't nuked the timeline, just everything in it

False dilemma, also when have we honestly known DBS to make the smallest modicum of sense?

>He was in the process of becoming one with the universe but was destroyed before he did. Don't be dishonest. We were never given evidence that he fully merged with the universe.

Gowasu said Zamasu was becoming the universe when he only engulfed the planet. By the time his reach stomps, we see Zamasu's presence extended in the far reaches of space, which we see once again, when Zeno destroys him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Except I already showed how at the bare minimum, Zeno destroying Zamasu and thus U7 was clear destruction of time and space."

Zeno =/= Goku and Beerus.

"The wiki even agreed on Kelfa stating she feel like she could one-shot a universe as partial justification for Low 2-C."

Wrong, that's just a feat being listed on her AP. That's not why she is Low 2-C. Just like Beerus being a casual universe buster isn't why he is Low 2-C.

"Vacuum of space is redundant. Vacuum of nothingness literally states that nothing will be there. The only semantics that are really in DBS is "world" and "destruction", as destruction can be directly interpeted (and most often is) as existence erasure"

Wrong. You are dishonestly interpreting every instance where void and nothingness are used to mean their highest possible interpretation, regardless of context and actual statement.

"False dilemma, also when have we honestly known DBS to make the smallest modicum of sense?"

Wrong, it's a real dillema that can be argued and analyzed from multiple ways. With your arguments, you are just fallaciously claiming that just because some things don't make sense, then nothing has to make sense.

Suspension of Disbelief is one thing, a complete lack of internal logic and verossimilitude is another.

"Gowasu said Zamasu was becoming the universe when he only engulfed the planet. By the time his reach stomps, we see Zamasu's presence extended in the far reaches of space, which we see once again, when Zeno destroys him."

Wrong, we see him reaching space, not the "Furthest reaches of space", that is wanking and making assumptions when we have no proof.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, The Everlasting, The real cal howard, Dragonmasterxyz, Ultima Reality, ALRF, Dark649 and more all agree with me. So I'm "winning".

 

[Golden_Void]

>Zeno =/= Goku and Beerus.

Nice dodge.

>Wrong, that's just a feat being listed on her AP. That's not why she is Low 2-C. Just like Beerus being a casual universe buster isn't why he is Low 2-C.

I don't see why not, unless you believe Kefla can't beat Infinite Zamasu.

>Wrong. You are dishonestly interpreting every instance where void and nothingness are used to mean their highest possible interpretation, regardless of context and actual statement.

"Highest possible interpretation" Don't see how when said words only have 1-2 accurate meanings. You're the one with the selection bias choosing one statement that doesn't agree with the other 4+ statements that say otherwise, then completely extrapolating it.

>Wrong, it's a real dillema that can be argued and analyzed from multiple ways. With your arguments, you are just fallaciously claiming that just because some things don't make sense, then nothing has to make sense.

"A false dilemma (also known as a false dichotomy) is a logical fallacy which involves presenting two opposing views, options or outcomes in such a way that they seem to be the only possibilities"

>Wrong, we see him reaching space, not the "Furthest reaches of space", that is wanking and making assumptions when we have no proof.

So you're telling me that Zamasu on screen in just seconds, extended past the location of what would be the moon, extended off-screen, and that isn't deep space? Even when Zeno destroys him, he is no longer extending his reach suggesting he probably already achieved his goal, if not coming pretty close. Regardless of how far along he was, the destruction of time-space by destroying the universe along with him is undeniable.

 

[Golden_Void]

Well, The Everlasting, The real cal howard, Dragonmasterxyz, Ultima Reality, ALRF, Dark649 and more all agree with me. So I'm "winning".

Although much of your admin career has thrived and depended on it, argumentum ad populum means nothing in a debate or discussion, especially when there's no undeniable proof.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Nice dodge."

It's not a dodge, it's a fact.

"I don't see why not, unless you believe Kefla can't beat Infinite Zamasu."

What the hell does that have to do with her casually blowing up universes. That has nothing to do with Zamasu and Low 2-C and whatnot.

""Highest possible interpretation" Don't see how when said words only have 1-2 accurate meanings. You're the one with the selection bias choosing one statement that doesn't agree with the other 4+ statements that say otherwise, then completely extrapolating it."

Do you even know what those words are?

The other 4 statements just go "They'll destroy the universe". That's it, not further context. The final statement is the one which contextualizes it as a 3D destruction of a universe's matter.

"A false dilemma (also known as a false dichotomy) is a logical fallacy which involves presenting two opposing views, options or outcomes in such a way that they seem to be the only possibilities"

That's not what I'm doing. In that case with Zeno and the Time Machine there really are only conclusions. One involves ignoring all semblance of logic, the other is just more logically likely.

"So you're telling me that Zamasu on screen in just seconds, extended past the location of what would be the moon, extended off-screen, and that isn't deep space?"

Sure, he's in space, but not the furthest reaches of space. He didn't fuse with the universe, 0 proof that happens.

"Even when Zeno destroys him, he is no longer extending his reach suggesting he probably already achieved his goal, if not coming pretty close."

Not at all. He isn't extending because he is being killed and stopped.

"Regardless of how far along he was, the destruction of time-space by destroying the universe along with him is undeniable."

Okay, and what that has to do with Battle of Gods? Absolutely nothing.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Although much of your admin career has thrived and depended on it, argumentum ad populum means nothing in a debate or discussion, especially when there's no undeniable proof.

• 1) I would appreciate you not insult me like that.
• 2) That'd not Argumentum ad Populum, that's just a democratic decision, which is how we always have done things here. If plenty of Staff disagree with you and agree with me, then I'm probably going to be the one whose analysis is accepted.
• 3) If more people are favoring my conclusions instead of yours, that speaks of my ability to argue and convince others. If your arguments were the strongest, I believe we'd see people siding with you.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Can you all not personally attack one another?

 

[Ryukama]

I agree with Dragon, there's no need for you two to be insulting one another. It's just a simple debate over Goku's profile, not anything to get personal about. I understand both of you feel the other one has mistreated you, however the best thing to do would be to settle down and try not to further any conflict. Thank you.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Dragon and Ryukama. I always prefer when debates happen civilly without anyone throwing shade or insults at the other.

 

[Golden_Void]

>It's not a dodge, it's a fact.

Be that as it may, it has nothing to do with a universe being destroyed.

>What the hell does that have to do with her casually blowing up universes. That has nothing to do with Zamasu and Low 2-C and whatnot.

U7 is a universe. Zamasu at least became partially one with U7, making him Low 2-C. Kefla could one shot U7. Where's the confusion???

>Do you even know what those words are?

The whole semantics game with the "vacuum of nothingness" is a form of extrapolation, basically conjecture.

>The other 4 statements just go "They'll destroy the universe". That's it, not further context. The final statement is the one which contextualizes it as a 3D destruction of a universe's matter.

Wrong. The majority of the scans say the universe itself will be destroyed. The way you interpet the "vacuum of nothingness" scan implies that the universe itself won't be destroyed, but its contents will be. That is factually incorrect and disproven.

>That's not what I'm doing. In that case with Zeno and the Time Machine there really are only conclusions. One involves ignoring all semblance of logic, the other is just more logically likely.

So you're saying out of all the possible reasons that could've happened (even regarding the series writers and not the actual show itself) that those were the only two possibilities?

>Sure, he's in space, but not the furthest reaches of space. He didn't fuse with the universe, 0 proof that happens.

Regardless, it only supports the space-time argument.

>Not at all. He isn't extending because he is being killed and stopped.

Basically what I said with "he was coming pretty close"

>Okay, and what that has to do with Battle of Gods? Absolutely nothing.

The fact that Zamasu was becoming the universe, which Zeno destroyed, and Goku and Beerus were going to destroy the entire universe. The statement of Zamasu becoming the universe pretty much implies that destroying the universe in DB = destroying its space-time as well.

 

[Dark649]

Your disagreement alone to Matthew and other users will not provide the upgrade, sorry Unite it will not go through.

 

[Golden_Void]

• 1) I would appreciate you not insult me like that.
• 2) That'd not Argumentum ad Populum, that's just a democratic decision, which is how we always have done things here. If plenty of Staff disagree with you and agree with me, then I'm probably going to be the one whose analysis is accepted.
• 3) If more people are favoring my conclusions instead of yours, that speaks of my ability to argue and convince others. If your arguments were the strongest, I believe we'd see people siding with you.

1. Not insulting you, just being honest, though not accusing me of being a wanker would help you out.

2. How its always been done doesn't mean its right, nor does it mean it should continue. But I guess it's a good thing that most democracies have checks and balances.

3. I can argue and convince people of a lie, does that make me correct?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

UMR, I am sorry, but not every Universe destruction is going to be Low 2-C. You need proof for that, and with Battle of Gods there is 0 proof of it, and counter evidence that only matter is being destroyed.

You are just assuming that because Zamasu could affect space-time, then everyone who destroys universes is affecting space-time, regardless of there being evidence or not of that. That's a hasty generalization.

 

[Golden_Void]

What I'm saying is if Zamasu only became a part of the universe that Zeno destroyed entirely, then how is a universe getting completely destroyed in any other context any different?

A hasty generalization only works if the conclusion is not justified by sufficient information.

Fact- We see Zeno destroy U7, U9, U10

Fact- We see everything goes "bye-bye"

Fact- We see Zamasu attempt to become the universe, which isn't without its space-time

Fact- We see the universe itself get destroyed alongside Zamasu

Fact- Beerus and Goku were stated to be on the verge on destroying the universe itself by the narrator, Whis, and Elder kai.

Where's the hasty generalization at?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"What I'm saying is if Zamasu only became a part of the universe that Zeno destroyed entirely, then how is a universe getting completely destroyed in any other context any different?"

Because you need proof that the universe is being destroyed in the exact same way as Zeno's in other cases. And the fact that Zeno is the undisputed God-Tier of Dragon Ball and you want to apply his feat to lower characters is very iffy.

"Where's the hasty generalization at?"

The hasty generalization is to assume that because Zeno can destroy space-time, then a heavily suppressed Beerus and Super Saiyan God, the lowest level of God Ki, can.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

>A part

What is this lowballing, man?


The show states he fully fused with the timeline and even that he became its justice as well.

So dont take stuff like that at face value, or we would have 5 dimensional Justice Zamasu.

>5 Dimensional Zamasu

What m8?

Also, Gowasu stated that he was fusing with the timeline, not that he had. A world of difference there. Zamasu didn't complete his fusion when he was killed.

 

[Golden_Void]

>Because you need proof that the universe is being destroyed in the exact same way as Zeno's in other cases. And the fact that Zeno is the undisputed God-Tier of Dragon Ball and you want to apply his feat to lower characters is very iffy.

You don't have to destroy a universe the same exact way as Zeno to be able to destroy a universe, nor is Zeno the only one capable of at minimum, destroying a single universe. If Vegeta could bust the HBTC just by charging up (planet level space-time and all), and its already been established that beings far weaker than him on previous levels could destroy the universe, where's the reach at? Especially if you consider Goku breaking out of Hit's time dimension in their second fight, or anyone that's successfully fought him.

>The hasty generalization is to assume that because Zeno can destroy space-time, then a heavily suppressed Beerus and Super Saiyan God, the lowest level of God Ki, can.

Zeno destroyed the "world", but we at least see evidence of only U7 being erased. Goku and Beerus were capable of the destroying the very universe itself. Since when was Zeno the only one capable of destroying a complete universe?

And actually, the lowest level of god ki would be the Kami/Dende level.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Really? Room of Spirit and Time being used as an argument? For the longest time, it has been dismissed by literally everyone as an argument. Planetary space-time destruction =/= Universal.

Yes, beings far weaker than Zeno can destroy a universe, but can they destroy space-time? Hit's pocket dimension and the ROSAT aren't good arguments. They are small dimensions.

Zeno is the one who showed the ability to destroy space-time. Goku hasn't.

 

[Golden_Void]

I'm not using it as an argument, you're making an extremely wild and unfounded claim that Zeno is the only one who can completely destroy a single universe. I'm just saying stronger characters casually destroy space-time on far smaller scales, when they indeed have the power to destroy the universe.

Hit's pocket dimension was also held together by his power, whereas Goku burst through it completely.

 

[ALRF]

But those are not universal sized space-time continuum though

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"you're making an extremely wild and unfounded claim that Zeno is the only one who can completely destroy a single universe"

No, GoDs and Angels and Jiren can too.

But Super Saiyan God Goku can't.

 

[Golden_Void]

So just to clarify, before you said Champa and Beerus were 3-A, disagreed with Goku and Beerus being able to destroy the universe despite multiple statements saying they can and they were going to, but now only the GoDs, Angels and Jiren can?

That doesn't make much sense, and Kefla can too.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Read my posts. I never said that Champa and Beerus are 3-A nor I disagreed with Goku being able to destroy the universe.

I disagree with God Goku being Low 2-C. He is 3-A.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

To sum it all up.

BoG Goku = 3-A, but =/= Low 2-C

GoDs and Angels= Low 2-C

Current UIO Goku, Kefla and Jiren = Low 2-C.

Zamasu= Low 2-C

Zeno= 2-C

Everyone else in the ToP = Decently High 3-A. (Not High 3-A. Higher end 3-A)

Although I still personally think Hit should scale, that a whole nother bag of worms.

 

[Golden_Void]

""Vacuum itself by definition already states there's nothing inside of it. U7 would've been gone. It alligns with the multiple statements of the universe itself being destroyed, plus Vados's statement of U6 and U7 being destroyed if Champa and Beerus fought."

The universe being destroyed = 3-A. It would have been reduced to an empty void, a vacuum. No evidence of space-time being destroyed, no matter how much you want to abuse the meaning of "Nothingness"."

That is what you said. Zeno destroyed one universe, Beerus and Goku were going to, it can't get much simpler. Zamasu was simply confirmation that destroying the entire universe = physical + spatiotemporal.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I said that Vados's statement and Battle of Gods are not proof of Low 2-C GoDs. They only became Low 2-C with Jiren.

"Zamasu was simply confirmation that destroying the entire universe = physical + spatiotemporal"

Wrong, it's just proof that that's what happened in Zeno's case. Hasty assumption that all other cases are like that.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Unite

Wasn't Zamasu becoming one with the entire Timeline, not just the physical universe?

 

[Golden_Void]

Jiren has less proof of destroying a universe than what was shown in BoG, simply because he shook an infinite realm. Short of Zeno, that was the only time we've come close to seeing a universe get destroyed.

@Ultima

He was becoming one with Future U7, and attempted to come to present U7.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@UMR

Wrong.

• Universe nearly gets destroyed in Battle of Gods
• RoF Statement
• Kefla's statement
• All the feats involving the World of Void
• Zamasu

And Jiren has more proof than what was shown in BoG. He's above GoDs for crying out loud.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Unite

Okay but...

That is what you said. Zeno destroyed one universe, Beerus and Goku were going to, it can't get much simpler. Zamasu was simply confirmation that destroying the entire universe = physical + spatiotemporal

Zamasu was becoming one with an entire Timeline though, and if i recall correctly, the universes in DB's multiverse were agreed to be physical universes sharing the same space-time structure, rather than being their own separate space-time continuums (Which means... all universes are contained in a single timeline), Goku and Beerus were only destroying a single one of these universes, if they affected all universes, then they perhaps would indeed be closer affecting space-time, which is not the case here

Meanwhile... Zamasu was becoming one with the entire Timeline, rather than... a single universe

 

[Golden_Void]

Zamasu was only becoming one with U7, potentially present U7 given the distortion in time and space. Even if every universe fell underneath the same time-space as the entire timeline (which I'm pretty sure is the case for most if not all multiverses), each universe still has their own space-time, evidenced by the Black arc.

If this wasn't the case, then how would abilities like Whis's temporal do-over which reverses time, make sense if any angel could reverse the flow of time of the timeline? We know Whis used it at least twice, any angel could've used this ability numerous times, which means no universe would be completely in sync with each other.

 

[Antvasima]

I have been talking with Matthew and UMR in private about this, and although I would personally prefer to keep our distinction between 3-A SSG Goku and Low 2-C Ultra Instinct Goku, I have told Matthew that he has to treat UMR with greater respect, and not undo changes that have been approved of by the community, such as by deleting the new Goku profile or undoing the resistance to empathic manipulation.

Matthew has agreed to try to shape up and be more collaborative/less confrontational, and has apologised to UMR via PM.

 

[Golden_Void]

Bump.

 

[Fllflourine]

After that shit-show, I do think that UMR seems reasonable here.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I agree with UMR.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I would personally prefer to keep the characters scaled from SSG Goku at 3-A, and Ultra Instinct at Low 2-C, so I agree with Matthew, just not with his behaviour.

 

[PaChi2]

Nor UMR or Matt seem covincing to me, so Im neutral here.

Dragon ball as a series doesnt make a distinction as we do for 3-A and Low 2-C, so BoG Goku can be both depending on how you want to treat his feat. Of course the more conservative approach is 3-A. You could even say that suppresed beerus is still Low 2-C (albeit much lower) because it'd make no sense for him to suppress himself infinitely and still feel anything from fighting goku and therefore Goku scales to that. Whatever.

Dont take what I said as an argument for either side, please.