-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
DBS/Goku Revisions
- Thread starter Golden_Void
- Start date
-
- Tags
- caulifla dragon ball son goku
- Status
- 32,354
- 20,297
It is very much a legit black hole.
- Extreme energy generating a mass of gravity
- Light can't escape it
- Special Beam Cannon bends when fired because of the black hole's gravity
- 32,354
- 20,297
In real life, I suppose. But in fiction they are destroyed all the time, and you can actually calculate the energy released by a black hole collapse / destruction (Calculate the Schwarzschild radius to gain the Black Hole's mass and then use E=MC┬▓ to get the equivalent mass-energy released by the black hole collapse).Kevyn Souza said:
A great example of this is Thanos, who gets thrown into a black hole 2 light-years in diameter and survives its collapse.
- 32,354
- 20,297
Resistance to Black Hole is one of the most nonsensical things I've seen.Dark649 said:
I much prefer treating it as a durability thing. And we are lately allowing for Black Hole calcs more and more.
- 177,578
- 90,557
It looked like a heart and did not suck Goku, 18, and 17 towards it, but rather increased gravity outwards from itself. That is not at all how a black hole works, and as such we cannot use real world formulas any more than we can use them for FTL kinetic energy.
I am constantly extremely busy, and cannot afford the time and energy to extensively argue about this though, so I would appreciate if you permanently drop the subject, and follow our rules regarding this issue.
I am constantly extremely busy, and cannot afford the time and energy to extensively argue about this though, so I would appreciate if you permanently drop the subject, and follow our rules regarding this issue.
- 32,354
- 20,297
"It looked like a heart"
Irrelevant.
"and did not suck Goku, 18, and 17 towards it"
Because they were immediately traped inside so they didn't need to be sucked.
"but rather increased gravity outwards from itself."
?
"That is not at all how a black hole works"
I don't know, but everything else about it is super realistic. Mass of gravity, things shot towards it bend, and not even light can escape.
Irrelevant.
"and did not suck Goku, 18, and 17 towards it"
Because they were immediately traped inside so they didn't need to be sucked.
"but rather increased gravity outwards from itself."
?
"That is not at all how a black hole works"
I don't know, but everything else about it is super realistic. Mass of gravity, things shot towards it bend, and not even light can escape.
- 32,354
- 20,297
Tanking a collapsing black hole involves literally the same calc but in reverse.Kaltias said:
- 32,354
- 20,297
"I'm not getting what's the issue about a character having resistance for something they resisted."
Because that's like saying "Resistance to punching". Surviving a black hole is a durability issue.
Because that's like saying "Resistance to punching". Surviving a black hole is a durability issue.
- 32,354
- 20,297
Resistance to Matter Manipulation.
Also RL matter is not remotely comparable to the matter which composes cosmic characters, planet-busters and whatnot. If their atoms and stuff were truly only as durable as those of normal objects, they'd be glass cannons.
Also RL matter is not remotely comparable to the matter which composes cosmic characters, planet-busters and whatnot. If their atoms and stuff were truly only as durable as those of normal objects, they'd be glass cannons.
- 177,578
- 90,557
A black hole sucks in matter towards itself to destroy it in a singularity. It does not increase gravity in another direction. Again, it did not behave like a real black hole, and I have told you over and over and over to stop disrespecting our regulations concerning this issue. I am getting tired of you regularly pestering me about it.
The Schwarzschild radius can be used for calculating the creation of legitimate black holes, but they do not collapse in this manner in the real world. The singularity simply destroys everything.
The Schwarzschild radius can be used for calculating the creation of legitimate black holes, but they do not collapse in this manner in the real world. The singularity simply destroys everything.
- 177,578
- 90,557
Anyway, for our purposes, given their infinite power, I suppose that High 3-A characters and above might be considered to be legitimately able to resist real black holes, but even that depends on DontTalk's analysis of the issue, and othervise it should be considered as an outlier.
- 32,354
- 20,297
" I have told you over and over and over to stop disrespecting our regulations concerning this issue"
Seriously? Just going to sweep the discussion under the rug again? I question this regulation because I think it is bad and incorrect, and I keep noticing more and more members and Staff being against it as well. Simply enforcing something out of personal preference while dismissing what the majority wants isn't particularly good.
"The Schwarzschild radius can be used for calculating the creation of legitimate black holes, but they do not collapse in this manner in the real world. The singularity simply destroys everything."
You just keep saying this, but you can legitimately calculate the collapse of a black hole and the durability needed to tank this.
Seriously? Just going to sweep the discussion under the rug again? I question this regulation because I think it is bad and incorrect, and I keep noticing more and more members and Staff being against it as well. Simply enforcing something out of personal preference while dismissing what the majority wants isn't particularly good.
"The Schwarzschild radius can be used for calculating the creation of legitimate black holes, but they do not collapse in this manner in the real world. The singularity simply destroys everything."
You just keep saying this, but you can legitimately calculate the collapse of a black hole and the durability needed to tank this.
- 32,354
- 20,297
Literally, if Black Holes were treated as a matter of durability, they would hardly ever exceed the 4-A level. Repeatedly stating that you need infinite durability to survive one and that it destroys everything (Including things that don't exist in real life) seems increasingly wrong given that.
- 177,578
- 90,557
I maintain this regulation, not because I have some kind of hatred for black holes, or certain characters, but because to do othervise would be to completely violate the laws of physics, and the basic definition of what a black hole fundamentally is. I do not want us to start using kinetic energy for FTL feats either.
As far as I have understood, real black holes can simply extremely slowly decay through having a few elementary particles escape from them, not be ripped to pieces. Applying the energy needed to create them to the energy needed to destroy them ignores the infinite singularity in the middle.
However, DontTalk would be much better suited to evaluate this issue.
As far as I have understood, real black holes can simply extremely slowly decay through having a few elementary particles escape from them, not be ripped to pieces. Applying the energy needed to create them to the energy needed to destroy them ignores the infinite singularity in the middle.
However, DontTalk would be much better suited to evaluate this issue.
- 177,578
- 90,557
And please realise that I do not have the luxury to engage in lengthy repetitive arguments. I constantly have to keep the site itself running, and use what little free time I can get to recover.
That said, as much as I generally let the staff solve issues on their own, I am not budging regarding this particular issue, as doing so would be to abandon all sense of logic.
That said, as much as I generally let the staff solve issues on their own, I am not budging regarding this particular issue, as doing so would be to abandon all sense of logic.
- 32,354
- 20,297
"I maintain this regulation, not because I have some kind of hatred for them, but because to do othervise would be to completely violate the laws of physics, and the basic definition of what a black hole fundamentally is. I do not want us to start using kinetic energy for FTL feats either."
This is:
1. False, as the black hole would still need to display some properties of real life black holes to be usable
2. A false equivalency, as some violations of physics happen all the time in fiction, and it is not comparable to something that violates how something can be calced with Tiering
3. Favouritism, as 90% of fiction violates the laws of physics. Saying we can't calc black holes because it would "Completely violate the laws of physics" is the same as saying no fictional character can be faster-than-light".
"As far as I have understood, real black hole can simply extremely slowly decay through having a few elementary particles escape from them, not be ripped to pieces. Applying the energy needed to create them to the energy needed to destroy them ignores the infinite singularity in the middle."
And as far as I understand it, that's not at all how it works. A black hole can collapse in real life albeit over an extremely long period of time. Collapsing it instantly would be releasing the mass-energy equivalent of that black hole instantly.
This is:
1. False, as the black hole would still need to display some properties of real life black holes to be usable
2. A false equivalency, as some violations of physics happen all the time in fiction, and it is not comparable to something that violates how something can be calced with Tiering
3. Favouritism, as 90% of fiction violates the laws of physics. Saying we can't calc black holes because it would "Completely violate the laws of physics" is the same as saying no fictional character can be faster-than-light".
"As far as I have understood, real black hole can simply extremely slowly decay through having a few elementary particles escape from them, not be ripped to pieces. Applying the energy needed to create them to the energy needed to destroy them ignores the infinite singularity in the middle."
And as far as I understand it, that's not at all how it works. A black hole can collapse in real life albeit over an extremely long period of time. Collapsing it instantly would be releasing the mass-energy equivalent of that black hole instantly.
- 177,578
- 90,557
As I keep explaining, we cannot apply the standards of a concept that simply uses a word that does not share the properties of what the word actually means.
For a sufficiently realistic black hole we can use the Schwarzschild radius to calculate the energy needed to create it, but that is simply not the same amount of energy needed to destroy it. In fact, we do not know if the singularity even can be destroyed.
For a sufficiently realistic black hole we can use the Schwarzschild radius to calculate the energy needed to create it, but that is simply not the same amount of energy needed to destroy it. In fact, we do not know if the singularity even can be destroyed.
- 10,392
- 3,347
Except the black hole presented here is actually exceedingly realistic. It's not just a literal black hole that doesn't resemble a real one.
- 32,354
- 20,297
What I said in regards to black holes being unquantifiable or bypassing durability:
"Black Hole isn't hax, lol. Nor does it ignore durability, much less on a conceptual level.
Black hole destroys matter due to the extreme gravitational pull. This doesn't bypass durability.
Let me demonstrate:
The energy needed to destroy a sub-atomic particle of iron is 6.6965E12 j/cc.
The density of steel is 8,050 kg/m^3.
Using those values, plus a weight of 90 kg on this calculator would wield a volume of 11180.124223602 cubic centimeters.
Destroying a human on a sub-atomic level thus wields 7.48677019e16 joules which is City level.
This isn't durability negation. It requires a specific amount of energy to destroy a specific amount of matter.
If the matter of fictional characters were only as durable as real life matter, no character in fiction would be able to survive planet-busting attacks, supernova-level energy blasts, etc, because their matter would simply be too fragile.
So saying that a Black Hole can destroy all real life matter is not a valid argument."
"Black Hole isn't hax, lol. Nor does it ignore durability, much less on a conceptual level.
Black hole destroys matter due to the extreme gravitational pull. This doesn't bypass durability.
Let me demonstrate:
The energy needed to destroy a sub-atomic particle of iron is 6.6965E12 j/cc.
The density of steel is 8,050 kg/m^3.
Using those values, plus a weight of 90 kg on this calculator would wield a volume of 11180.124223602 cubic centimeters.
Destroying a human on a sub-atomic level thus wields 7.48677019e16 joules which is City level.
This isn't durability negation. It requires a specific amount of energy to destroy a specific amount of matter.
If the matter of fictional characters were only as durable as real life matter, no character in fiction would be able to survive planet-busting attacks, supernova-level energy blasts, etc, because their matter would simply be too fragile.
So saying that a Black Hole can destroy all real life matter is not a valid argument."
- 32,354
- 20,297
There's also the simple fact that we '''don't know''' what goes inside a black hole. It is simply theorizing. And fiction is free to go with whatever interpretation it wants or ignore it altogether.
- 32,354
- 20,297
By matter you mean the arena? Maybe because it isn't large enough nor is all the arena that close to it. Also arena is made of Kachi Katchin. No physical matter in real life has High 4-C durability.Antvasima said:
- 10,392
- 3,347
Also, black holes don't literally suck anything in (That's a very common misblief). They just bend whatever's around it unless it's very, very close.
- 32,354
- 20,297
DBS has depicted Black Holes generally realistically twice now.Dark649 said:
- 177,578
- 90,557
I mean that nobody was subjected to a pull towards the "black hole", but rather a push of gravity away from it. According to what science tells us that is not at all how a black hole operates.
And yes, fiction is free to be as illogical or idiotic as it wants, but then we cannot apply the standards used for a concept with entirely different intrinsic mathematical properties.
Again, I am tired and busy, and would appreciate if you permanently stop pestering me about this year in and year out.
And yes, fiction is free to be as illogical or idiotic as it wants, but then we cannot apply the standards used for a concept with entirely different intrinsic mathematical properties.
Again, I am tired and busy, and would appreciate if you permanently stop pestering me about this year in and year out.
- 32,354
- 20,297
No?
I already said multiple times why I consider both black holes to be decently realistically.
Also, about infinite Black Holes:
High 3-A Luke Skywalker when?
I already said multiple times why I consider both black holes to be decently realistically.
Also, about infinite Black Holes:
High 3-A Luke Skywalker when?
- Status
Similar threads
