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DBS/Goku Revisions
- Thread starter Golden_Void
- Start date
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- caulifla dragon ball son goku
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Blanked is more or less correct. He probably destroyed the Universe but not the full timeline like people say he did.
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Also, the "No way in hell that Beerus suppressed himself infinitely" argument isn't very good. In fiction, characters can be as suppressed as they want to be (SSB Goku suppressed to Krillin level is an example of this in DBS).
Likewise, it'd be like saying that Superman is High 2-A for contending with a casual Mxy, because "No way his suppression would lower his power by multiple degrees of Infinity".
It's an argument from incredulity, essentially. You may think it illogical or not believe it, but it happens.
Likewise, it'd be like saying that Superman is High 2-A for contending with a casual Mxy, because "No way his suppression would lower his power by multiple degrees of Infinity".
It's an argument from incredulity, essentially. You may think it illogical or not believe it, but it happens.
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@Pachi
I know. I was just debunking the argument in case someone wishes to use it.
I know. I was just debunking the argument in case someone wishes to use it.
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- Thread starter
- #126
Erasing somebody who is becoming the universe itself and becoming part of a distortion in space time is pretty solid evidence that time was destroyed. Zeno destroyed at least U7 completely.Blanked said:
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Nobody disagrees with Zeno destroying universal space-time, but he evidently didn't destroy the whole timeline or else the time machine wouldn't reach the timeline.
Much like you can't travel through a road if there is no road, you can't time travel if there is no timeline to travel.
Much like you can't travel through a road if there is no road, you can't time travel if there is no timeline to travel.
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Yes, he did say that. Though I doubt Elder Kai was aware of Beerus' full power, and back then the intent was Beerus being much weaker than he is now. They set up Super Saiyan God as nearing Beerus' power, and now after years of training, multiple arcs, multiple Zenkais, Super Saiyan Blue and Kaioken x20... Goku is still beneath Beerus outside of Ultra Instinct.
Considring Beerus and Champa can survive each other's blows and the destruction of their respective universes as collateral, I doubt he'd die to his clash with Goku.
Considring Beerus and Champa can survive each other's blows and the destruction of their respective universes as collateral, I doubt he'd die to his clash with Goku.
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- Thread starter
- #130
It's also likely because in destroying the universe, the Supreme Kai would die, thus Beerus, and Goku can't survive space.
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Wow, you're right.
Angels and GoDs have one of the worst weaknesses in fiction.
Angels and GoDs have one of the worst weaknesses in fiction.
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- Thread starter
- #132
Angels not so much, as they go inactive (whatever that means). At least Rumshi wouldn't have had to worry if Zamasu was his kaioshin.
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Well, because Zamasu was a Kaioshin trainee. Rumshi would die if Gowasu died.
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- Thread starter
- #134
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RIP Best Godtuber.
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- Thread starter
- #136
But back on topic....
Destroying a universe = it's spacetime goes along with it
BoG Goku and Beerus were going to destroy the universe itself (backed repeatedly). Zeno did too, but further confirmation that space-time gets destroyed was from Zamasu dying, who was becoming one with the universe (key point), and nearly going through a distortion in space-time.
We've seen far stronger characters while restrained destroy the space-time of far smaller spaces (Vegeta busting the HBTC, Goku busting Hit's time dimension which was being held together at his full power), etc.
Destroying a universe = it's spacetime goes along with it
BoG Goku and Beerus were going to destroy the universe itself (backed repeatedly). Zeno did too, but further confirmation that space-time gets destroyed was from Zamasu dying, who was becoming one with the universe (key point), and nearly going through a distortion in space-time.
We've seen far stronger characters while restrained destroy the space-time of far smaller spaces (Vegeta busting the HBTC, Goku busting Hit's time dimension which was being held together at his full power), etc.
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Not agreeing or disagreeing with the upgrades, but this is not always true. Otherwise 3-A and Low 2-C would be a thing.Unite My Rice said:
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- Thread starter
- #138
I'm saying for the purposes of the DB feats that when they destroy a universe, it's spacetime is destroyed, not in general.
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Not quite, the only time we have evidence of that being true is with Zeno. The only reason the GoDs are Low 2-C is powerscaling from Infinite Zamasu.
We have no evidence that Battle of Gods Goku and Beerus would destroy space-time, specially since we have explicit clarification that they'd just reduce everything to a vacuum of empty space.
Small-scale space-time destruction does not prove Universal space-time destruction. You cannot assume that all abilities and powers scale linearly alongside power increase.
We have no evidence that Battle of Gods Goku and Beerus would destroy space-time, specially since we have explicit clarification that they'd just reduce everything to a vacuum of empty space.
Small-scale space-time destruction does not prove Universal space-time destruction. You cannot assume that all abilities and powers scale linearly alongside power increase.
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- Thread starter
- #140
The fact that it was said that the universe itself would be destroyed is evidence, as Zeno destroyed Future U7 itself, with Zamasu showing space-time is indeed involved in universal destruction.
A vacuum of nothingness could very well describe what Zeno did as well, as he was floating amid nothingness post destruction.
A vacuum of nothingness could very well describe what Zeno did as well, as he was floating amid nothingness post destruction.
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Universal Destruction is Low 2-C when space-time was confirmed to be destroyed alongside the universe, Goku and Beerus did not threatened space-time, only the matter in the universe was confirmed to be [The void was not stated to be devoid of time-space] or else we would had all 3-A characters to be Low 2-C. Zamasu becoming one with space-time means the Zen'o destroyed it alongside the other universes, but taking the god tier as an example to those that did not destroyed, never stated or proved it in that scale is not enough for an upgrade by speculation.
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The void is the void of space, not a void without space-time like you are assuming from the Void Manipulation page. We have 0 proof God Goku would destroy space-time, and it is a generalization to say that simply because Zeno destroying the universe destroyed space-time, then everyone else who can do it is Low 2-C.
Specially since Zeno is the God-Tier.
Specially since Zeno is the God-Tier.
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- Thread starter
- #144
A vacuum by itself is space devoid of matter.
If something is made of nothing, it doesn't exist. Something that exists cannot be composed of something that doesn't exist. Essentially, it would be turned into a void devoid of anything.
There's really an abundance of supporting context. Whis saying Zeno can destroy anything he wants. The World of Void, and that it's filled with infinite nothingness (which only differs from the context in BoG by the word "infinite", which has no time or space. Zeno destroying future U7 and leaving it as a void, which can be described as a vacuum of nothingness.
It seems like a simple and recurring theme regarding universal destruction is that destroying one and turning it into a void is accompanied by the lack of time or space.
I'll be back later.
If something is made of nothing, it doesn't exist. Something that exists cannot be composed of something that doesn't exist. Essentially, it would be turned into a void devoid of anything.
There's really an abundance of supporting context. Whis saying Zeno can destroy anything he wants. The World of Void, and that it's filled with infinite nothingness (which only differs from the context in BoG by the word "infinite", which has no time or space. Zeno destroying future U7 and leaving it as a void, which can be described as a vacuum of nothingness.
It seems like a simple and recurring theme regarding universal destruction is that destroying one and turning it into a void is accompanied by the lack of time or space.
I'll be back later.
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The World of Void has nothing to do with BoG Goku. And Zeno can't be used to scale the weakest level of a God.
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Whis initially compared the initial stages as a deity to small tree and showed the gap with Beerus Castle, which rappresent the gods of destructions, said gods can be easily oneshotted by the angels, who among them there is Whis, who said he could not keep up with the Grand Priest, who should be below Zen'o.
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I thought this might be a good thing to add in. But wasn't it claimed the clash was threatening to tear apart the fabric of the universe? Which is essentially space-time and everything that composes a universal continuum. (I might go find the scan of that if it was indeed claimed)
I noticed this was used elsewhere for scaling SSG Goku to a full universe buster. However, I myself am unsure really which makes sense. Unfortunately, this feat is like it was already said, vaguely on the line of either being 3-A or Low 2-C, depending on interpretation.
I noticed this was used elsewhere for scaling SSG Goku to a full universe buster. However, I myself am unsure really which makes sense. Unfortunately, this feat is like it was already said, vaguely on the line of either being 3-A or Low 2-C, depending on interpretation.
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I thought this was Staff only... I guess i will insert my opinion as well of the possibility of a Low 2-C BoG Goku :
Tearing the fabric of the Universe [ On a Universal Scale ] , if that was explicitly stated, is likely Low 2-C . We have used this reasoning before , as long as it wasn't hax [ AHEM Gotenks ] and was shown and implied in the same instance to be on a Universal scale of fabric removing... It should be notable enough. Like stated, i don't have an opinion on whether Low 2-C or 3-A is shown , i just want whichever one to be agreed upon.
Tearing the fabric of the Universe [ On a Universal Scale ] , if that was explicitly stated, is likely Low 2-C . We have used this reasoning before , as long as it wasn't hax [ AHEM Gotenks ] and was shown and implied in the same instance to be on a Universal scale of fabric removing... It should be notable enough. Like stated, i don't have an opinion on whether Low 2-C or 3-A is shown , i just want whichever one to be agreed upon.
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That wasn't stated. We just got basic statements of "The universe will be destroyed" / "The universe will be reduced to a vacuum of nothingness
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Oh. It would be an entirely different story if " The fabric of the Universe " on a "Universal Scale" was explicitly stated. Then in that case i agree with Matthew, it is just speculation.
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"Vacuum"? Pretty sure that's a term that refers specifically to space void.
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Yeah. It's a void as in the void of space. Space devoid of matter or atmosphere.
Not a void of nonexistence.
Not a void of nonexistence.
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Yeah I'm not sure "fabric of the Universe" was stated in the fight.
"Vacuum" was stated though.
"Vacuum" was stated though.
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- Thread starter
- #157
I think the point is being missed when I brought up Zeno and The World of Void. One is described as a void filled with nothingness describe to have no s/t, another is a void with nothing, and we can reach a logical conclusion that s/t is destroyed as Zeno destroyed the universe, and Zamasu was proof that spacetime was destroyed.
Along with statements saying the universe in its entirety would be destroyed, I don't see the difference. Zeno isn't the only one capable of destroying the universe, which is what was said many times as an argument.
Along with statements saying the universe in its entirety would be destroyed, I don't see the difference. Zeno isn't the only one capable of destroying the universe, which is what was said many times as an argument.
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void was never used, just vacuum.
Also, the World of Void has space and time, air, and some undefined wavy colorful energy in it (Which the Grand Priest shifted). It is not devoid of space-time.
Zeno is a god-tier.
You cannot scale Zeno to GoDs. Not all universal destructions are equal.
Also, the World of Void has space and time, air, and some undefined wavy colorful energy in it (Which the Grand Priest shifted). It is not devoid of space-time.
Zeno is a god-tier.
You cannot scale Zeno to GoDs. Not all universal destructions are equal.
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@UMR
The universe in its entirety isn't good enough. They haven't displayed any space-time destruction at that point, and that could just have been in reference to the physical universe.
However, if Beerus said later on that he would turn the universe into a void. The word void is a better justification for absolute destruction rather than empty vacuum or the universe in its entirety would be destroyed.
The universe in its entirety isn't good enough. They haven't displayed any space-time destruction at that point, and that could just have been in reference to the physical universe.
However, if Beerus said later on that he would turn the universe into a void. The word void is a better justification for absolute destruction rather than empty vacuum or the universe in its entirety would be destroyed.
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