(DBS) Broly vs (Tournament of Power) Jiren

[JackJoyce]

We are never going to come to a consensus unless we get a direct statement regarding the power levels of UI Goku or Jiren compared to Broly. Until then I vote Inconclusive

 

[ZERO7772]

I change my vote to inconclusive as well.

 

[My_area]

This argument of yours doesn't even make sense...this is Post-Gogeta Broly. Gogeta was pushed into going SSB against just SS Broly and FP Broly fought and tanked numerous energy attacks from SSB Gogeta for an extended period of time. What you are talking about is SS Broly BEFORE he adapted to SS Gogeta and forced him into SSB.
In-reality it seems to go: SSB Gogeta > FP Broly > SS Broly > SS Gogeta > Frieza > Post-ToP Goku (Who is akin to 1st or 2nd UIO Goku). SS Gogeta is at least 100x 1st or 2nd UIO Goku and was surpassed enough by SS Broly that he was pushed into SSB.

Effectively, SS Broly is over 100x more powerful than 1st or 2nd UIO Goku as a minimum.

Ok let me check the fight again then I will comment

 

[Dr_Transparent]

Incon FRA

 

[Stonecoldstunner]

Wow, you people REALLY dislike Seth for some reason, I find his content mostly accurate, and DB youtubers aren't sources for good information ? Geekdom? Quaaman ? Rhymestyle ? Off topic but what ?

 

[Inksanesss]

Broly via powerscaling


Movie Gogeta => Broly >Super Sayain blue Goku (Movie)>>>>>>Base Goku Movie >MUI Goku (Tournament of power) > Enraged Limit brealer Jiren (Tournament of power) >> Regular Limit breaker Jiren (Tournament of power) > Tournament of power Jiren

 

[Chartate101]

UI isn't in the movie wtf are you talking about

 

[SomebodyData]

Really offtopic, but ppl trust Geekdom and the like, its really just Seth that they dislike, with their own reasonings of course.

If you really want to know why, can't you just ask someone on their wall?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Do we have any feats of Broly being stronger than Jiren other than hyperbole statement? Statements are all speculations if we don't have feats nor powerscales to back it up. An example of hyperbole statement would be this.


How's that a hyperbole? All Ywhach is saying that the afterlife and life were meant to be one. That's not an exaggeration.

 

[Inksanesss]

Really offtopic, but ppl trust Geekdom and the like, its really just Seth that they dislike, with their own reasonings of course.
If you really want to know why, can't you just ask someone on their wall?

Broly still wins via powerscaling

 

[SomebodyData]

Literally nothing to do with my comment.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

I thought I leave this here. Don't know how it will help with the debate, but Broly did force Goku to go MUI just for a second.

Remember after Super ended, Goku stated he couldn't tap into MUI anymore, but it proves that Broly was able to force Goku into MUI just for a single moment. So, idk how this scales, but here is proof.

 

[GinDan]

Broly stomp Jiren

 

[SSBXeno573]

Broly via powerscaling


Movie Gogeta => Broly >Super Sayain blue Goku (Movie)>>>>>>Base Goku Movie >MUI Goku (Tournament of power) > Enraged Limit brealer Jiren (Tournament of power) >> Regular Limit breaker Jiren (Tournament of power) > Tournament of power Jiren

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Yeah, nothing says that Base movie Goku is stronger than MUI Goku or LB Jiren.

 

[Peter1129]

Where did Broly Saga Base Goku > MUI Goku even come from? The best feat we've seen with Broly Saga (Post-MUI) Base Goku is him stopping Weakened Jiren's energy wave which overpowered Android 17 and Golden Frieza by himself while weakened. The most you could say is Broly Saga Base Goku > Pre-UIS SSBKK Goku.

 

[Stonecoldstunner]

Goku going MUI was just one of the many easter eggs according to people who watched the premier. Though people theorise that Goku was trying to tap into UI, but wasn't under enough pressure for it to fully release, but that's just a theory.

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

Is it confirmed that this even is UI or is that just a rumor? There aren't any statements or anything in the fight itself that would indicate that Goku was using any form of UI. If anything, it really seems like the easter egg is that it looks a little like UI in the transformation sequence.

 

[My_area]

Base Goku>Pre UI SSBKX20 Goku is massive inconsistency and not true at all

I rewatched the fight and SSJ Gogeta was mostly dominating the fight SSJ Broly barely hit SSJ Gogeta 2 times and thats it while SSJ Gogeta hit SSJ Broly far many times

And no SSJ Broly went LSSJ first then gave some blows to SSJ Gogeta before he turned to blue

No it goes like that SSB Gogeta>LSSJ Broly>SSJ Gogeta>SSJ Broly>Base Gogeta>Post TOP SSB Goku and Vegeta>First UIO

Nothing suggest that they are above second UIO

So no Jiren has better feats than SSJ Broly

 

[Stonecoldstunner]

That's what I said, it was an easter egg in between the transformation sequence.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

IF we assume that isn't a easter egg ( I assume they would have said something about this, and none of the spoilers said anything about it being merely a easter egg ) and it's to prove that Broly did have the power to force him into MUI temporarily... Then Broly actually may very well be a lot stronger than we all thought.

At best this would imply that SSB Goku > Limit Breaker Jiren & ToP Enraged MUI Goku , because to unlock Ultra Instinct even temporarily you have to be pushed greater than the previous person that caused it. It would not imply Base Goku > MUI Goku.

 

[My_area]

There is no proof that you can push someone into UI temperoray and its only a theory at this moment but if what you said is true then I agree

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

Except that there's no proof it's UI at all. It doesn't even necessarily look all that much like UI and I haven't seen any sources or heard about this at all outside of this thread. Goku's hair never spiked in UI, there was never any yellow energy, UI was never triggered by a willful burst of energy, etc...I could easily argue that it looks more like False SSJ than MUI.

Even if we take it for granted that it is an intentional Easter Egg, there's no way to know whether he actually was entering some form of UI for a moment or if it was just meant to look a little like it as a nod to attentive fans.

UI is so significant in DBS that I find it really hard to believe that it was reached in any capacity and no one acknowledged this or said anything about it.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

If definitely think that was just some kind of Easter Egg. UI is considered to basically be the pinnacle of power and skill you can achieve. The way that it is treated and how it functions is unlike anything we have truly encountered in DB in the past. It's not just a form gives you more power but utterly refines and quickens your combat style.

Goku entering that state in Super got an acknowledgement from all the GoDs and a proud smile and confirmation from Whis. For it not to be touched upon by anyone in that moment of the movie who knew of it, just doesn't feel right.

I also feel like that if it was more than an easter egg, than something would have been done with it. Even Goku achieving it again for just a little while and fighting Broly would have been too good of an oppurtunity to pass up, in my eyes. Heck, they could have done that and then have Goku drop out of it, escalating the drama of the battle and forcing fusion to be the last desperate measure.

 

[JackJoyce]

There has been Easter eggs about SSG and SSB previously in the Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!! movie

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

I literally just posted proof of Goku going MUI for a split second...how is that a rumor.....

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

Its like some people don't bother reading new posts in a thread..here is more proof

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Common Two things:

1: What is the scan w/ japanesse text indicate ?

2: The problem is if that was to portray Broly's power or a easter egg for fans who paid close attention.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

I can't translate Japanesee, so I'm not sure what the text says, but I do know it came from the storyboard for the movie. There is a lot of early art floating around from storyboard and pre-movie bust floating around on Japanese websites.

2. Why can't it be both. This scene happen when Broly was outclassing SSJG in his base still.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Hmm...

1. That comes from the storyboard. If we translate that we can finally figure out their intent on showing that scene .... Nice. We need a translator ASAP.

2. It could be... It could be not. I do remember one thing : Goku in the magazine promos does say that based on him being outclassed by SSG in Ikari Form Broly ( They show the same picture as SSG on the floor, unable to move, essentially borderline knocked out heavily hinting he's referring to Ikari Broly), he's the strongest opponent he's ever faced. Even Piccolo hints at it as well in the movie. However, I ignored it due to it being a potential outlier.

However... IF this is what they intended, Goku's SSB would have needed to surpass Limit Breaker Jiren & ToP Enraged MUI Hoku... during Post-2nd MUI to even have a chance against Ikari Broly if that is true... Which would support temporarily unlocking UI and the boost would match with the linear power ups he got from each UI perfectly. There is a few other things that support such implications and them having a storyboard for it sure does mean it can lead it in either direction . But alas, we need to wait.

 

[AKM sama]

That storyboard proves literally nothing.

 

[Stonecoldstunner]

Talk about grasping at straws LOL

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Is it really hard to see why we need to ? Unless you use statements for Broly this becomes a mismatch unless we can quantify the following:

• How Gogeta would do against Jiren from the ToP.
• Would Broly's rapid improvement allow him to eventually overtake Jiren
• How much power Gogeta was using against SSJ and FPSSJ Broly ( Likely at least SSG Gogeta levels for SSJ, and near FP SSB Gogeta Levels IMHO )

And a few other things ?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

We would need to see the translated novel to get a better idea of the scaling and feats methinks.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I wouldn't call this a mismatch. A mismatch basically means that there's no way to balance the match to get a fair ruling. EX: Character A wins with Speed Equal but Character B wins with Speed Unequal.

This is matchup is more of we don't have enough information to really say who would win as we just don't know where the two stand with each other in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

When english dub drops in Jan 16 we will have to do a comparison between it and english sub for us only to have to scratch it off by the time Dragon Ball anime returns and retcons the movie.

 

[Chartate101]

Movie ain't gonna be retconned. No one liked the beginning of Super. They aren't gonna do that again

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

Movie ain't gonna be retconned. No one liked the beginning of Super. They aren't gonna do that again

I agree that they won't repeat the mistakes made in adapting BoG+RoF but had Toriyama's original script for the film been followed to a tee, it would've been ~3hrs long.

That necessarily means a lot of omitted material so I wouldn't rule out some form of retelling and with that much material, its possible that it'd require reinterpreting the events of the film.

At the very least, while the animation would 100% be inferior to the film for obvious reasons (hard for a weekly anime to be on par with a big budget film with loads of production time and all the best animators), it'd likely be on par with late DBS (ToP)

 

[Chartate101]

Movie ain't gonna be retconned. No one liked the beginning of Super. They aren't gonna do that again

I agree that they won't repeat the mistakes made in adapting BoG+RoF but had Toriyama's original script for the film been followed to a tee, it would've been ~3hrs long.

That necessarily means a lot of omitted material so I wouldn't rule out some form of retelling and with that much material, its possible that it'd require reinterpreting the events of the film.

isn't that the point of the novel?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I kind of wouldn't mind the movie getting a retelling if it gave us more time to evaluate and pick apart Broly. If only to get a more in depth look at the character.