(DBS) Broly vs (Tournament of Power) Jiren

[ZERO7772]

Goku's SSB was stronger than his first UIO after he used 2nd UIO, so yeah, I think it's fair to say that Post ToP SSB should be relative to second UIO.

This would make Ikari Broly stronger than Kefla as well.

 

[My_area]

Care to explain yourself better?


Not really. This is post-ToP Goku with all the zenkai and training he did so SS Broly is much more impressive than ep 127 Jiren.


Fair point. Jiren has better feat and hype than Broly, even though Broly is supposed to be stronger.

Care to explain yourself better?

Broly Wrathful form=SSB Goku

SSJ Broly is 50 times or 40 times according to (VSB) stronger than Wrathful

SSJ Broly>Broly wrathful form>SSB Goku

But base Gogeta was stronger than SSB Goku so

Base Gogeta>SSB Goku

But Wrathful Broly=SSB

So Base Gogeta>Wrathful Broly=SSB Goku

So Gogeta SSJ form would be 50 or 40 times base so that would make SSJ Gogeta stronger than SSJ Broly not comparable

So the scaling would be

SSJ Gogeta>SSJ Broly>Base Gogeta>Wrathful Broly=SSB Goku

It makes sense because SSJ Gogeta forced Broly to go LSSJ

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Goku outright did say that ONLY fusion would have worked. Unsure if that includes UI... But he said so in the movie. He is referring to SS Broly BTW. Plus, a Goku whose comparable to UIO 2nd at least. And BTW, I am unsure if Cypher's translation of Frieza's statement is even accurate, considering another translation of someone who speaks japanesse states that he said SS Broly is the strongest mortal they fought, not the strongest in existence. I will ask herms to check the translation later on today.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

"It makes sense because SSJ Gogeta forced Broly to go LSSJ"

That's wrong though. I just rewatched it and Gogeta goes SSB before Broly goes full power. Broly goes full power after tanking a couple of attacks from SSB Gogeta.

 

[ZERO7772]

A fusion of much weaker sayians "Kale and Califula" was a threat to UI Omen Goku and remember both of them put together were weaker than even SSG Goku.

I am pretty sure SSB Gogeta would stomp ToP UI Goku. Broly made Gogeta use his full power near the end to finish him off, it's not a scratch to say Broly is stronger than Jiren and UI Goku at his peak.

 

[ZERO7772]

@My area Broly powered up multiple itmes during that fight, don't forget that Broly only get stronger as the fight goes on, the SS Broly that fought Gogeta >> The SS Broly that fought Goku/Vegeta.

 

[My_area]

@Zero7772

Not really.This is Post -TOP Goku with all the zenkai and training he did so SS Broly is much more impressive than ep 127 Jire

There is no proof that he got too much stronger than TOP Goku so difference between Post TOP Goku and so the difference between Post TOP and TOP isn't much and SSJ Broly has showed no feats except stomping a Post TOP SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta while Jiren in ep 127 stomped a TOP SSBKX20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta together easily

@LightinAnt

Was stated to be strongest by director once which doesn't matter since Broly was stated in the end to probaly stronger than Beerus while Jiren was stated to be above GoD back in ep 109 so no and the second was stated by Frieza and Frieza only got a punch and a kick from Jiren so his statement is vague and not valid

@CryoTheMayo

He is atleast 40 times SSB post TOP Goku which doesn't make him superior to Jiren who in ep 127 was easily stronger than SSBKX20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta and was much stronger

Gogeta in base was performing better than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta

Base Gogeta>SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta

SSJ Gogeta is 50 times SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta

And SSB Gogeta is unknown times stronger than SSJ Gogeta

SSB Goku was stronger than a first UIO Goku not Second though

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

>Promo metairl says Broly is the strongest guy they ever faced.
Broly > Jiren

Not to mention it's almost universal rule for every new enemy to be stronger than the one before. I am pretty sure narratively Broly is superior to Jiren. That being said, he's feat and statement doesn't help his case that much, hence why anime Jiren > movie Broly

>Beerus was shook at the super suppressed Jiren who fought pre-UIO Goku


F*cking Beerus was shocked at SSBKKx10 and it meant nothing. Heck Beerus is a cheer leader who react to everything that happens on the stage.

Beerus was only shook by a second from SSBKKX10 and then explains it's simply because he's a bit angry at Goku for hiding the KK. With Jiren Beerus is visibly shook out of shock. Listen to the way it's said. With SSBKKx10 Beerus is angry and with Jiren Beerus is actually taken back or afraid

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Is this really relevant? Post-ToP Goku and Vegeta were stomped by SS Broly (who grew far more powerful later) and had to go SSB as Gogeta to defeat SS Broly and yet despite all of this Goku still says 'You are probably stronger than Beerus' to Broly at the end of the film. SS Broly was already much more powerful than 1st UIO Goku and maybe 2nd UIO Goku when he fought Goku and Vegeta.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

This argument of yours doesn't even make sense...this is Post-Gogeta Broly. Gogeta was pushed into going SSB against just SS Broly and FP Broly fought and tanked numerous energy attacks from SSB Gogeta for an extended period of time. What you are talking about is SS Broly BEFORE he adapted to SS Gogeta and forced him into SSB.

In-reality it seems to go: SSB Gogeta > FP Broly > SS Broly > SS Gogeta > Frieza > Post-ToP Goku (Who is akin to 1st or 2nd UIO Goku). SS Gogeta is at least 100x 1st or 2nd UIO Goku and was surpassed enough by SS Broly that he was pushed into SSB.

Effectively, SS Broly is over 100x more powerful than 1st or 2nd UIO Goku as a minimum.

 

[Chartate101]

Whats the vote count?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

2 for Broly

2 for Jiren

1 Inconclusive

 

[Peter1129]

Ok so to clarify some things there was an interview that said Post-ToP Goku was near the lvl of the GoDs who are comparable to the Third UIS according to a magazine scan.

And going by the previous UIS limit breaking boosts his current Post-ToP (Post-MUI) SSB form should be far more powerful than his Post-2nd UIS SSBKK form which is stronger than his Second UIS.

Fusion is (Fusee 1 Full Power + Fusee 2 Full Power) x 20-100 = Fusion Base Form.

So Broly Saga Base Gogeta is at minimum 20x stronger than Post-ToP Full Power Goku + Post-ToP Full Power Vegeta. So Broly Saga Base Gogeta is probably closer to the Third UIS if not above it in power.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Of course...Base Gogeta is also somehow stronger than SSB Goku who is vastly superior to SSG...vastly superior to SS3 and so on until we get to base. The only real way this makes sense is if Gogeta is using Godly Base which I had thought was retconned in the Tournament of Power with SSG returning.

 

[ZERO7772]

>Fusion is (Fusee 1 Full Power + Fusee 2 Full Power) x 20-100 = Fusion Base Form.

Pretty much this. Fusion base scale to the fusee strongest form always.

 

[AKM sama]

Just what I was expecting of this thread ovo

 

[LightinAnt]

Id it hadn't been clear i vote for Broly

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta-]

The issue I now have with the whole "Goku is pretty close to a GoD" statement is that it makes little sense. He states that Goku is close to their level, yet Broly is compared to Beerus in terms of power. There is a pretty massive disparity between the two, so the director's statement comes off as iffy.


I've always thought that the GoDs were all pretty relative to each other, with some being a bit stronger than others. Either Goku is heavily overestimating Beerus, or he is an abnormality among the GoDs. I didn't really get this vibe in the anime, although the manga showcased his power as being a bit higher than a good portion of his GoD contemporaries.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Where y'all getting that fusion equation?

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta-]

It's from Vados's statement about the Potara fusion. I believe she states "The sum of their parts multiplied tens of times over."

 

[ZERO7772]

Gogeta described his power in the movie as "Goku and Vegeta add together and then massively powered up" which goes in line with what Vados said back in the ToP iirc.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Blue Goku and Vegeta are closer to being a god and they only lasted 35 seconds against ssj Broly and couldn't lay a dent in him and was forced to run away, Frieza outright says he's the strongest, and his insane Saiyan plot armo... I mean reactivate evolution (which is a pretty abnormal version of it compared to other Saiyans). Like CryoTheMayo said Broly was meant to be the maximumest so I vote Broly.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Same I think it's just that the writers are too scared to admit anyone is stronger than Beerus after what they just did with Jiren

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Can someone please count my vote for Jiren? Thanks.

 

[Huesito88]

No, do more and maybe then.

 

[Ovrhide]

Broly do to the fact he has more than 3 statements across mediums referring him as the strongest opponent goku has ever faced.

And Freeza stating in the Novel that there was no one in existence who can beat him (perhaps a hint to ssj broly (not Lss) > 127 jiren)

BTW, It was Lssj broly who forces gogeta into blue. Lss broly literally send gogeta flying with a punch, and gogeta responded with ssb after a couple more hits he received. This is to the person who claimed ssb gogeta forced broly into Lss.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Broly do to the fact he has more than 3 statements across mediums referring him as the strongest opponent goku has ever faced.
And Freeza stating in the Novel that there was no one in existence who can beat him (perhaps a hint to ssj broly (not Lss) > 127 jiren)

BTW, It was Lssj broly who forces gogeta into blue. Lss broly literally send gogeta flying with a punch, and gogeta responded with ssb after a couple more hits he received. This is to the person who claimed ssb gogeta forced broly into Lss.

Do we have any feats of Broly being stronger than Jiren other than hyperbole statement? Statements are all speculations if we don't have feats nor powerscales to back it up. An example of hyperbole statement would be this.

 

[Chartate101]

We know what hyperobole. Please stop talking down to people like they're children.

 

[ZERO7772]

http://i.4cdn.org/a/1545335182914.gif

 

[Stonecoldstunner]

This is the video, sorry it took hours to respond :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AqrVZkqoXE

Also, my vote is for Jiren, has more impressive feats to go off of, and multitude of statements putting him at GoD level while MASSIVELY surpressed. Though if the battle goes on for a long period of time, Broly wins, as his power increases throughout the entire fight. Depends on the situation, but Jiren 6/10

 

[JohnCenaNation]

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Seththeprogrammer is hardly a good source to use in a debate.

 

[LightinAnt]

Well that and appeal to authority

 

[Chartate101]

Seththeprogrammer is hardly a good source to use in a debate.

Good source is subjective. I personally find that his content is generally accurate. Second, even if his arguments are normally wrong, that doesn't mean its always wrong. How about you, ya know, WATCH THE VIDEO before saying its inaccurate. If a he said the earth is roubd, would that be wrong because he said it?

 

[Ovrhide]

Good source isn't really subjective. Good sources come from people working on said material (like the people who promote broly as the strongest opponent thus far). Seth is just a youtuber with a huge ego that will soon consume him.


We can power scale to see how huge the gap between lss broly and ssb goku and vegeta are. Base Gogeta >> ssb goku and vegeta >> ToP ssb selves is kind of a huge thing. The fact that broly forced gogeta to enter ssb is incredible. Broly was fighting someone literally millions of times stronger than either ssb goku or vegeta.

Lets not forget how INSANELY MASSIVE the gap between base and ssb is. Its like db era goku fighting ssj goku in namek. Its unfair as hell.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Here's the big thing though, how would compare SSB Gogeta to MUI Goku? That the biggest thing in the room to me, honestly.

MUI completely outclassed Full Power Base Jiren who was in turn outclasses just about everyone else the ToP even while he's surpressed and holding back. Jiren then goes LB and goes from being outclassed to fighting evenly until MUI went rage mode. MUI was also growing in power the entire fight ontop of his instinctive reaction and extremely efficient combat technique. Jiren's power, speed and skill allowed him to match that and Goku ultimately needed a rage boost to finally bring Jiren down.

 

[Chartate101]

Seth is just a youtuber with a huge ego that will soon consume him.

ad hominem

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm not going to derail this discussion but I'm going to just say that saying 'ad hominem' doesn't magically give you some sort of argument against what he is saying.

 

[Ovrhide]

ad hominem

It aint. Its the same with all and any db youtuber. They are not the good sources, the people or company where they get their info are (if they are reliable in the first place).

Seth is just that, A youtuber. You like his content, fine. but no one sould bring him up to support an argument. Bring up official scans.

Btw, he has an ego. Thats a fact like it or not.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Let's not get into it about Seth. Seriously, it says something when just mentioning the guy sparks this kind of reaction. At the end of the day, Seth is a youtuber with an opinion, that's all.