DBS BoG Base Goku having "absorbed SSG into Base" is false and the article about it is wrong.

[Omegas03]

I honestly agree with this except for the very last part, the SSB statement talks about the transformation itself being the one that surpassed God and not that RoF SSB was the first to surpass BoG SSG as that already happened with Goku absorbing his God onto SSJ and being able to access better forms

 

[PFM18]

I honestly agree with this except for the very last part, the SSB statement talks about the transformation itself being the one that surpassed God and not that RoF SSB was the first to surpass BoG SSG as that already happened with Goku absorbing his God onto SSJ and being able to access better forms

That's pretty fair

 

[My_area]

I mean of course I believe that Goku "absorbed" the power he had from SSG. And yes, the SoD punch was a result of a rage boost and his base form going forward was NOT that strong. Therefore: SSJ Goku(post-ritual)>BoG SSG>>Base Goku(post-ritual)

And the common verbatim "absorbed into Base" makes no sense because the entire sequence where he had "absorbed" it, occurred as a SSJ. So if you are going to specify a form, it should be SSJ.

So you are saying that he only absorbed power from SSG in SSJ and not in base in ROF and later?

As for rage boost I will have to disagree but I will specify it later but just heads up Goku base will still be universal even after this thread goes by

 

[HrishikeshM]

why is this still open.....all the points are being repeated now and all were addresssed....this should be closed

 

[Sera_EX]

I'll close this

 

[My_area]

I mean of course I believe that Goku "absorbed" the power he had from SSG. And yes, the SoD punch was a result of a rage boost and his base form going forward was NOT that strong. Therefore: SSJ Goku(post-ritual)>BoG SSG>>Base Goku(post-ritual)

And the common verbatim "absorbed into Base" makes no sense because the entire sequence where he had "absorbed" it, occurred as a SSJ. So if you are going to specify a form, it should be SSJ.

So you are saying that he only absorbed power from SSG in SSJ and not in base in ROF and later?
As for rage boost I will have to disagree but I will specify it later but just heads up Goku base will still be universal even after this thread goes by

Whenever you are active I would like you to address the first question as it will be important in having a impact on what kind of answer I will write

Incase its still confusing let me make it simple .Do you believe in Goku absorbing SSG power in base too or only SSJ in entire DBS not only BOG but entire DBS too?

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

My area basically wants to know if you (@PFM18) think base Goku has god ki.


In my opinion, it's irrefutable that he does by RoF saga, if nothing else. You see the flickers of the Super Saiyan Blue aura happening while they're training on Beerus' planet in their base forms, rather than in Super Saiyan ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lkuRqCNN7s ) I'd argue the entire point of Whis' training was to acclimate their bodies to god ki and controlling it.

 

[Sera_EX]

Goku absorbed the power of SSG into SSJ, allowing him to still partially contend with Beerus as a mere SS. During the Whis training he learned to tap into the "god power" (could actually be referring to god ki, and not exactly SSG) on his own. However, SSB being "Super Saiyan with god ki" is based on a poor explanation of SSB by Goku because the writers forced an explanation as to why Blue even exists.

This is all, however, contradicted by various moments from the Destroyer Tournament onwards, and SSG even makes a comeback in the ToP, which wouldn't make sense to have if he has no use for the form because he can tap into its power at will (in any form). Whis in the ToP even said SSG was superior to SS yet inferior to SSB, but doesn't have the stamina drawbacks of Blue.

I hate to say it, but as Dragon Ball fans, we have to accept that Super was very poorly written due to not having any direction and ignore both "Base Goku absorbing the SSG power" and SSB being the Super Saiyan form of SSG.

 

[Sera_EX]

This means Base Goku's 3-A should be based on his feats in base form post-RoF saga as he has enough to remain 3-A in base without the contradictory "he absorbed the power of SSG" and Saiyan Beyond God.

 

[ChocomilkAlex]

And with what Sera said, it all circles around to my comment that Super has shitty writing.

 

[My_area]

Agreed there

 

[PFM18]

So you are saying that he only absorbed power from SSG in SSJ and not in base in ROF and later?

As for rage boost I will have to disagree but I will specify it later but just heads up Goku base will still be universal even after this thread goes by

Yes, that is what I am saying, to put it succinctly.

 

[My_area]

Oh so let me confirm it one last time you believe that Goku absorbing SSG power in base doesn't exists at all throughout DBS?

Well alright then I will address that too

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

So what, if any, changes do we need to make to the profile pages?

 

[Vietthai96]

If i'm remember, back in the movie RoF, there is a state called Saiyan beyond God which Goku and Vegeta boost themself to the same lvl as SSG without tranforming, or rather it is using SSG power in base form; and back in BoG movie Beerus said that Goku absorbed SSG power allow him to utilized it in SSJ form. it mean that back then Toriyama and Toei decide that SSG just exclusive for ritual, and after that Goku and Vegeta using Saiyan Beyond God state in the place of SSG, tranform into SSJ when using Saiyan beyond God state result SSB. But then Super manga decide to show us Goku can tranform into SSG at will, and posibly Toei and Toriyama realize that peoples confuse Saiyan beyond God state with Base form, so they decide to retcon it in ToP Arc of anime with Goku tranform into SSG at will.

About SSB Goku holding back against Krillin, there are some major plot hole. If Base Goku truly is Universal with him absorbed SSG in base form, so turning SSJ which we mostly know that it x50 base form power just to holding back against Krillin who is Large Star level is ridiculous, because his base form in early ToP Arc is way stronger than his base form in RoF Arc, and turning SSJ mean he x50 that Universal power level, and he further turn Blue which multiply that Universal power level in base form way more insane than SSJ, just to holding back against Krillin who is just Large Star level which i don't know how inferior it is compare to baseline Universal level, and Goku turn SSJ and SSB respectively to just holding back more??????. I think an baseline Universal character try to holding back against a Large Star level character is very hard already, in Goku even multiplying his power way higher his Universal power?????. Now anyone have answer for that

 

[KLOL506]

SBG is movie-only.

 

[Vietthai96]

SBG is movie-only.

Yes, but they reuse that in RoF Arc retelling, everything is the same except Goku Struggling with Final Form Frieza while in the movie Goku stomp Final Form Frieza

 

[Sera_EX]

@Sera

So what, if any, changes do we need to make to the profile pages?

Saiyan Beyond God and Goku absorbing the power of SSG in base form should be removed him from his base key. Both have been retconned.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree 100% with AKM Sama, there's no such thing as a Saiyan Beyond God transformation. And "SSG absorbed into base form" isn't really a good way to word it. It's better to just simply say Goku still had the same power level as his SSG form did even after he reverted to his base form. So 3-A base Goku is staying no matter what given the details and especially with the numerous zenkai boosts he's been getting. But he was able to go SSG form in ToP which is in turn stronger than stronger than his SS3, SS2, SS1, and base forms are now. And SSB being SS1 form mixed with God Ki doesn't make sense. It's simply the form that comes after SSG.

 

[HrishikeshM]

agreed and majority of the thread already agree with akm sama.....this should have been closed long ago and here we after 5 years still discussing talks like saiyan beyond god and base goku retaining the power boost after ssg wore off

 

[Antvasima]

Saiyan Beyond God and Goku absorbing the power of SSG in base form should be removed him from his base key. Both have been retconned.

Okay. I am fine with if a staff member removes it then.

 

[AKM sama]

SBG was never a thing and was removed way back when. Goku absorbing the power boost in BoG isn't retconned, in fact it was strengthened, and that wasn't even the point of discussion in this entire thread. Nothing needs to change.

 

[AwkguyDB]

It honestly seems to me that SSJG is what happens to a Saiyan who utilizes god ki and SSJB is what happens when a SSJG goes SSJ as explained in the Anime/Movie/Manga.

Goku retains the power of SSJG and is even said to surpass that very power as both a SSJ and ultimately his Base form by Vegeta, Beerus and Whis.

Goku and Vegeta train with Whis so that way they are able to tap into god ki without using rituals and even find ways to surpass it.

Goku and Vegeta are able to go SSJG and SSJB as additional transformations.

 

[My_area]

Wait isn't Saiyan beyond god and Base Goku retaining SSG power in base is same thing?-

Though I agree it has been retconed badly but well it atleast existed before TOP which is what I want fo prove in my future comment

 

[My_area]

@Vietthai96

I believe even in his base form he was holding back immensely just like how he was doing against Roshi,he went SSJ just to encourage Krillin I suppose so even then he would be holding back and then him going SSB and supressing himself just proves he was holding back and was testing and training Krillin greatly hence it will be wierd to make Krillin universal level,that is the only logical reash I suppose as Krillin granted he could be offguarded was thrown by 1 attack by Frost and he could do nothing while Frost is inferior to SSG Goku level

 

[Eminiteable]

Bruh why is this garbage still continuing.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we close this thread without any changes instead then? What do you think Sera?

 

[PFM18]

It isn't more than a 50x difference? I don't think we even treat it as more than 40x. Even so, a 50x difference considering the size of the DB universe and the Universe-level tier in general, is still 3-A in base, because we treat baseline 3-A as the scope of the observable universe IRL, IIRC. So Piccolo would still be 3-A in his Super keys, given his showing against Frost, who did legitimately compete (as in, traded/blocked/dodged blows) with base and Ss1 Goku before he resorted to his needle.

...wait your saying that Piccolo is stronger than Base Goku??? What??? I thought the claim was that "well Piccolo is at least somewhat near Base Goku who is way above universal", but you are saying he is stornger than Base Goku?? There's literally no reason to believe that.
Frost absoluely got dominated by SSJ Goku, and could barely stand towards the end of the fight. THEN, he fought Piccolo, after being clearly weakened immensely from the beatdown he took from Goku. Meanwhile, Goku STILL told Piccolo that he had no chance against Frost and Piccolo didn't even contest it. He knew he was weaker than Frost.

After the tournament, Goku offers for Piccolo to train with him, and Piccolo declines, saying that he could never keep up with Goku, and he agrees. This is the arc after it was established by Whis that they ONLY really train in thier Base form. Therefore, Piccolo cannot keep up with Base Goku. Then, Piccolo loses to Gohan when he achieves his Ultimate state that Piccolo refers to as "the power you used against Buu." Obviously meaning this is not the same level of power that reached SSB level.

There's absolutely no reason for Piccolo to be universal.

 

[Omegas03]

^Didn't Vegeta transform to fight the same weakened Frost? Writers are also very inconsistent in these type of things.

 

[PFM18]

Oh so let me confirm it one last time you believe that Goku absorbing SSG power in base doesn't exists at all throughout DBS?
Well alright then I will address that too

Correct. No evidence whatsoever.

 

[My_area]

Ok then

 

[PFM18]

My area basically wants to know if you (@PFM18) think base Goku has god ki.


In my opinion, it's irrefutable that he does by RoF saga, if nothing else. You see the flickers of the Super Saiyan Blue aura happening while they're training on Beerus' planet in their base forms, rather than in Super Saiyan ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lkuRqCNN7s )
I'd argue the entire point of Whis' training was to acclimate their bodies to god ki and controlling it.

No, God Ki in Base is never achieved. That is the only case in the RoF movie. During the RoF arc in Super, Goku transforms into SSB, and everybody takes note of the induced pressure and their inability to sense him. If he had God Ki in Base, this would make no sense. This scene establishes that God Ki is only used in their God forms, and this is corroborated throughout Super, aside from a scene during the Hit rematch where Krillin is able to sense SSB Goku.(an inconsistency)

This means Base Goku's 3-A should be based on his feats in base form post-RoF saga as he has enough to remain 3-A in base without the contradictory "he absorbed the power of SSG" and Saiyan Beyond God.

Yes, Saiyan Beyond God and "absorbed into Base" are both movies only. But how exactly does he stay "3-A" in Base? could you explain that? It could be true, I'm not familiar with all of this attack potency stuff and astronomy.

 

[PFM18]

agreed and majority of the thread already agree with akm sama.....this should have been closed long ago and here we after 5 years still discussing talks like saiyan beyond god and base goku retaining the power boost after ssg wore off

Maybe try reading the thread that you're whining about? You probably should given that your characterization of the thread is a gross misrepresentation.

SBG is movie-only.

Yes, but they reuse that in RoF Arc retelling, everything is the same except Goku Struggling with Final Form Frieza while in the movie Goku stomp Final Form Frieza

That's not true at all. The arc represents "Saiyan Beyond God" differently, as in it is not a thing. The RoF arc adds scenes that make this clear:

-Gohan senses Goku's Base during the Freeza fight -It is stated that they could not sense Goku once

This makes it obvious that he no longer has God Ki in his Base, they are explicit about being able to sense him and then being unable to sense him when he transforms.

Saiyan Beyond God and Goku absorbing the power of SSG in base form should be removed him from his base key. Both have been retconned.

That's true. Goku's Base following BoG is not stronger than BoG SSG following the arc. This "absorbed into Base" premise is not a thing in Super.

 

[PFM18]

SBG was never a thing and was removed way back when. Goku absorbing the power boost in BoG isn't retconned, in fact it was strengthened, and that wasn't even the point of discussion in this entire thread. Nothing needs to change.

....you're going to make this claim without even responding to my post debunking your argument? I showed you very clearly of your characterization of:

-Goku saying "Not yet" and then immediately gaining power doesn't occur, you were completely wrong about your recollection of the dialogue. -That your characterization of Goku calmly and politely explaining the situation to Beerus is false. Even posted screenshots showing how they literally made a point to zoom in on his face where his eye gets "angry" like it is in SSJ etc, and his eyebrow crinkled, making it VERY obvious for the audience that he was angry.

Bruh why is this garbage still continuing.

If it is garbage it should be easy to explain why it is garbage. Otherwise you're just bitching.

Wait isn't Saiyan beyond god and Base Goku retaining SSG power in base is same thing?-

Though I agree it has been retconed badly but well it atleast existed before TOP which is what I want fo prove in my future comment

No, "Saiyan Beyond God" is the premise in RoF where Goku's Base form had God Ki. In DBS, there was no such "form" where Goku's Base has God Ki. The "absorbed into Base" is a different premise, it's the idea that his Base was stronger than SSG, but not with God Ki.

Both of which are false though.

It honestly seems to me that SSJG is what happens to a Saiyan who utilizes god ki and SSJB is what happens when a SSJG goes SSJ as explained in the Anime/Movie/Manga.
Goku retains the power of SSJG and is even said to surpass that very power as both a SSJ and ultimately his Base form by Vegeta, Beerus and Whis.

Goku and Vegeta train with Whis so that way they are able to tap into god ki without using rituals and even find ways to surpass it.

Goku and Vegeta are able to go SSJG and SSJB as additional transformations.

It is never stated that his Base form surpasses that power.

There is no "surpassing it" because there is no such "it" of some arbitrary power level that God Ki is.

1) Goku adapted to the SSJ power, his SSJ was as strong as SSG and later surpassed it.

2) Vegeta trained with Whis, catching up to Goku while Goku was farming.

3) they train with Whis together, and learn God Ki, which allowed them to tap into SSG and SSB.

 

[My_area]

Absorbed into base literally means having SSG power in base to surpass SSG which is same as SBG which means base form having god ki surpassing SSG its same thing and it exists which I will get into it now that my questions are answered

Its taking me long well because I have been busy with college and tests so I will try to complete it within a weekend

 

[PFM18]

Absorbed into base literally means having SSG power in base to surpass SSG which is same as SBG which means base form having god ki surpassing SSG its same thing and it exists which I will get into it now that my questions are answered

You asked if they were the same thing or not, I explained to you that they are not. Saiyan Beyond God and "absorbed into Base" are not the same thing and I already explained the difference.

 

[My_area]

I checked and there is literally no difference between them at all both have(Absorbing SSG power in base) which is inherently same thing

 

[PFM18]

I checked and there is literally no difference between them at all both have(Absorbing SSG power in base) which is inherently same thing

One has god ki one does not. Therefore they are different.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

-snip-

No, God Ki in Base is never achieved. That is the only case in the RoF movie. During the RoF arc in Super, Goku transforms into SSB, and everybody takes note of the induced pressure and their inability to sense him. If he had God Ki in Base, this would make no sense. This scene establishes that God Ki is only used in their God forms, and this is corroborated throughout Super, aside from a scene during the Hit rematch where Krillin is able to sense SSB Goku.(an inconsistency)
-snip- Yes, Saiyan Beyond God and "absorbed into Base" are both movies only. But how exactly does he stay "3-A" in Base? could you explain that? It could be true, I'm not familiar with all of this attack potency stuff and astronomy.

1st: If they didn't have access to god ki in base, how would they be able to train it while training in their base forms? How would they be able to, while again, training in base, get such a glimpse of power as shown in the clip? Why wouldn't it have just been a flicker of regular Super Saiyan aura, or something?

2nd: Baseline 3-A is the size of the "observable universe" IRL, which is something like 93.016 billion light years. DB's universe is confirmed to be infinite as we believe ours to be, as well as containing seperate layers of reality/dimensions, such as the afterlife, and it was stated by all relevant parties involved that Beerus and Goku were going to destroy the entire universe. 50x less than such a 3-A rating is still 3-A.

...So yes, Piccolo would stay Universal, because a weakened final form Frost should still be superior to his previous forms, which contended with Base Goku, who was vastly stronger than he was in BoG/RoF.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Nothing needs to be changed here; every character currently rated as Universal is legit universal.