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Why The "Don't Downgrade Base Goku" Rule Is Wrong

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Veronica

Veronica

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Base Goku=SSG got undoubtedly retconned at the U6 arc and finalized in ToP arc

It's like this:
BoG: Base Goku>SSG
RoF SSB=SSJx50>base>SSG
U6 Retcons with regular SSJ1-3 thus SSB>SSG>SSJ1-3
ToP: Finalizes the retcon by finally utilazing SSG form and power. Thus SSB>SSG (shown)>SSJ1-3>base

As Akira said "SSG is gone, because Goku has the power in base, so he doesn't need to transform anymore".


www.kanzenshuu.com


Translations | "Battle of Gods" Animanga: Akira Toriyama​

English translation of Akira Toriyama's Q&A session from the 'Anime Film Comic' version of the film 'Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods'
www.kanzenshuu.com

www.kanzenshuu.com

Unless you think base Goku=SSG and SSG transformation with the power SSG x base SSG. Which makes no sense, its the anime following the manga, after RoF.

Here: It's clearly stated when only Goku goes SSB that he surpasses SSG power, because in RoF. Akira planned to only use SSB further on, but got retconned by U6 arc by reintroducing SSJ1-3.

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f3ce851a4271619b8b931bc0457b2886-lq
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When Frieza tells Goku go SSJ. Goku said "he doesn't need to". So why didn't he go regular SSJ instead of Blue, when regular SSJ is supposedly x50 base SSG?

Also in the anime, Base Frieza is able to beat Base Dyspo while Goku needed Super Saiyan God to fight him. Compare that to the RoF arc where Base Goku was fighting Final Form Frieza. Again proving>RoF base=SSG, but in ToP SSG Goku=RoF base Goku. It's a retcon. Thus RoF base Goku switched to SSG (Happened already in U6 arc) annd SSB to Golden Frieza which he need. A coincofence?

Thus BoG SSG>>>>>U6 besides Hit, since he scales above SSB. U6 Arc base and SSJ1-3 should be slightly above their Buu Saga strenght with the 3 years training.

Every chatacter that scales to base&SSJ1-3 should scale to Cell&Buu Saga tier. Wether SSJ2 Cabba is above Super Perfect Cell, can be all discussed in a seperate thread. When this get accepted.

Also only when Goku goes SSB, is it said he rivals a GoD. Like when he went SSB against Toppo. That is because his regular SSJ1-3 is nowhere near it not even clpse to SSG power.

I can add alot more, but I think this is sufficient.
 
I don't see anything that actually constitutes a strong argument for Base Goku having not absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into his base form.
Veronica said:
As Akira said "SSG is gone, because Goku has the power in base, so he doesn't need to transform anymore".
Click to expand...
This just means Base Goku is now equal to his previous Super Saiyan God state. So if he needs that level of power, he doesn't need to transform. But he can get even stronger with Super Saiyan forms of course, as Goku literally turns Super Saiyan when fighting Beerus.
Veronica said:
Unless you think base Goku=SSG and SSG transformation with the power SSG x base SSG. Which makes no sense, its the anime following the manga, after RoF.
Click to expand...
Saying "unless you think [x], which is wrong because I said so" isn't an argument. You literally just explained what it is. Turning Super Saiyan God nowadays is literally just that: Base Goku (with SSG level power) x the SSG multiplier
Veronica said:
Here: It's clearly stated when only Goku goes SSB that he surpasses SSG power, because in RoF. Akira planned to only use SSB further on, but got retconned by U6 arc by reintroducing SSJ1-3.
Click to expand...
It just means Super Saiyan Blue is a stronger transformation than Super Saiyan God, which is true. This doesn't help your argument.
Veronica said:
When Frieza tells Goku go SSJ. Goku said "he doesn't need to". So why didn't he go regular SSJ instead of Blue, when regular SSJ is supposedly x50 base SSG?
Click to expand...
Because SSJ is just 50x the user's base form, while SSB is the SSG transformation, plus a 50x amp at minimum
Veronica said:
Also in the anime, Base Frieza is able to beat Base Dyspo while Goku needed Super Saiyan God to fight him. Compare that to the RoF arc where Base Goku was fighting Final Form Frieza. Again proving>RoF base=SSG, but in ToP SSG Goku=RoF base Goku. It's a retcon. Thus RoF base Goku switched to SSG (Happened already in U6 arc) annd SSB to Golden Frieza which he need. A coincofence?
Click to expand...
You're ignoring the fact that Frieza underwent serious mental training in Hell and got considerably stronger as a result. You're also ignoring instances where Goku's non-god forms have shown that they're not far inferior to his god forms, such as Kale and Caulifla (though the latter to a lesser extent) being able to withstand attacks from SSG Goku despite previously fighting his SSJ2 form. His god forms are stronger, no doubt, but not to the extent you're suggesting - as this shouldn't happen if that were the case.
Veronica said:
Also only when Goku goes SSB, is it said he rivals a GoD. Like when he went SSB against Toppo. That is because his regular SSJ1-3 is nowhere near it not even clpse to SSG power.
Click to expand...
This doesn't support your point at all. SSB is Goku's strongest form at the moment (aside from stacking Kaioken with it), and it possesses god ki. Also, it just says "power that rivals the gods," that's it.

The rest is scaling proposition stuff that relies on this thread being accepted, so I won't get into that. Consider me as emphatically disagreeing with the OP.

The discussion rule should stay.
 
Veronica said:
If they get past above (they, won't). Than I will add more why it's wrong. According to their mistake everyone is 2-C. It's Namek to GoD tier. Indeed a wide range.
Click to expand...
it would be best to have all of your arguments in the OP rather than elsewhere.
 
Base Goku=SSG got undoubtedly retconned at the U6 arc and finalized in ToP arc

It's like this:
BoG: Base Goku>SSG
RoF SSB=SSJx50>base>SSG
U6 Retcons with regular SSJ1-3 thus SSB>SSG>SSJ1-3
ToP: Finalizes the retcon by finally utilazing SSG form and power. Thus SSB>SSG (shown)>SSJ1-3>base
Click to expand...
Where did you come with the notion that SSjG Form would stuck the user to the same exactly level no matter how strong the user get over time?

And your scaling its inaccurate.
Post BoG: Base > BoG SSG
RoF: SSB > SSG > SSJ Forms > Base >= Post BoG Base
U6/Zamasu: KKxSSB > SSB > SSG > SSJ Forms > Base > Post BoG Base
ToP: UI > KKxSSB SSB > SSG > SSJ Forms > Base > Post BoG Base
Here: It's clearly stated when only Goku goes SSB that he surpasses SSG power, because in RoF. Akira planned to only use SSB further on, but got retconned by U6 arc by reintroducing SSJ1-3.

Click to expand...

The just explained that SSB stuck his multiplier over the SSG Form, nowhere here he say that his Base never surpassed his SSG Form.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
This just means Base Goku is now equal to his previous Super Saiyan God state. So if he needs that level of power, he doesn't need to transform. But he can get even stronger with Super Saiyan forms of course, as Goku literally turns Super Saiyan when fighting Beerus.
Click to expand...
I think that's also an interview for the movies which have been retchonned
 
CloverDragon03 said:
It was for the movie yes. If we were going by movie scaling, we'd have SSG Goku at 60% of Beerus's power, and we know that ain't true
Click to expand...
Yeah that's why I'm saying that as proof being put there is plain bullshit and totally unethical as it confuses people who wouldn't know about it.
 
TiltedFN said:
Why are you making this exact thread from yesterday when it clearly has been rejected MANY times, and made a discussion rule? smh someone close this.
Click to expand...
He is allowed as long as he is presenting new information to appeal for removal of discussion rule. He currently did not break any rules.
 
What Toriyama meant is that he doesn't need to transform reach initial SSJG's power level anymore, not that he won't use his transformations anymore in general

Like dawg he literally uses SSJ after absorbing SSJG in said fight of course it doesn't mean he won't use transformations altogether 😭

Completely disagree
 
CloverDragon03 said:
I don't see anything that actually constitutes a strong argument for Base Goku having not absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into his base form.

This just means Base Goku is now equal to his previous Super Saiyan God state. So if he needs that level of power, he doesn't need to transform. But he can get even stronger with Super Saiyan forms of course, as Goku literally turns Super Saiyan when fighting Beerus.

Saying "unless you think [x], which is wrong because I said so" isn't an argument. You literally just explained what it is. Turning Super Saiyan God nowadays is literally just that: Base Goku (with SSG level power) x the SSG multiplier

It just means Super Saiyan Blue is a stronger transformation than Super Saiyan God, which is true. This doesn't help your argument.

Because SSJ is just 50x the user's base form, while SSB is the SSG transformation, plus a 50x amp at minimum

You're ignoring the fact that Frieza underwent serious mental training in Hell and got considerably stronger as a result. You're also ignoring instances where Goku's non-god forms have shown that they're not far inferior to his god forms, such as Kale and Caulifla (though the latter to a lesser extent) being able to withstand attacks from SSG Goku despite previously fighting his SSJ2 form. His god forms are stronger, no doubt, but not to the extent you're suggesting - as this shouldn't happen if that were the case.

This doesn't support your point at all. SSB is Goku's strongest form at the moment (aside from stacking Kaioken with it), and it possesses god ki. Also, it just says "power that rivals the gods," that's it.

The rest is scaling proposition stuff that relies on this thread being accepted, so I won't get into that. Consider me as emphatically disagreeing with the OP.

The discussion rule should stay.
Click to expand...
1. Ypu are misunderstanding him. According to Akira.. The reason he can't transfor SSG is, because he can't. That's why SSG isn't shown until the ToP arc,because he had SSG power in base. Now you are saying Goku has two SSG powers and can multiply it with SSG power. That doesn't make sense.

2. False, when Goku goes SSG it has the power with it. There is no evidence that it's less than that. BoG and RoF confirms it's a set of power that can be only be surpassed with SSB.

3. False, Goku basically says "SSB is going SSJ with the power SSG". It nowhere says its a superior transformation. Otherwise he would go regular SSJ and surpass SSG by x50. Don't you see the problem?

4. False, RoF base Goku power is SSG level and as shown above. Goku doesn't have the SSG transformation. Do you think Goku absorbed the power of SSG and made SSG a seperate transformation with the power of SSG? That is why when he goes SSJ it's SSB and not regular SSJ, because Akira was planning to do away it and changed it back in U6 arc and give evidence that Goku has two SSG powers.

5. It does, because in BoG only SSG rivals a GoD strenght so was in the Toppo fight, also in the ToP arc.. No one acknowledged Goku godly power in SSJ1-3
 
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CloverDragon03 said:
Are we also ignoring that Base Copy-Vegeta (who had all of Base Vegeta's power) effortlessly stomped SSJ3 Gotenks?
Click to expand...
That is filler and so is base Goku vs Beerus,because their script was likely outdated. Besides those fillers. You have nothing to suggest that base Goku has SSG level of power.
 
Veronica said:
I have yet someone to refute the fact that RoF shows RoF base Goku=SSG goes SSJ on top of it and it's SSB. According to your logic regular SSJ would be x50 SSG.
Click to expand...
Bro... It's called BOOSTS IN POWER. Goku isn't SSG in base he RETAINS his initial power he had in SSG in base. Any further transformations work normally and boost his strength normally such as SSG since they amplify his base strength and he's not going super saiyan blue by going super saiyan in base with SSG power absorbed as SSB is a much larger transformation due to how it amplifies his base power. It's not a hard concept to grasp.
 
Veronica said:
That is filler and so is base Goku vs Beerus,because their script was likely outdated. Besides those fillers. You have nothing to suggest that base Goku has SSG level of power.
Click to expand...
The DBS anime has no filler. Filler is stuff that isn't present in the source material, but the DBS anime is the source material. You're just ignoring evidence you don't like
Veronica said:
I have yet someone to refute the fact that RoF shows RoF base Goku=SSG goes SSJ on top of it and it's SSB. According to your logic regular SSJ would be x50 SSG.
Click to expand...
Except for... the refutations you ignored
 
Passersby said:
uhh...is it just me or ar there 2 CRTs the same as this one with one being made just yesterday?
Click to expand...
Veronica made a CRT for this, it got closed because of the Discussion Rule, and they basically copy-pasted the same thing into a new CRT with a different title
 
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