DBS 17 vs Rose Goku Black

[KingEzran]

Let's get into the details of this versus thread.

-Speed Equalized

-Both in Character

-Location: Planet Namek

-Range: 2.5 meters

-Win via death

Votes;

17: 2

Black: 1

 

[KingEzran]

bump

 

[KingEzran]

bump

 

[KingEzran]

bump

 

[KingEzran]

Perfectly bumped...as all things should be.

 

[Mickey1940]

Last I checked, 17 is nearly on par with a Post Hyperbolic Time Chamber Goku Black Arc SSGSS Goku, while Black is became comparable to that Goku as well after adapting to Post Hyperbolic Time Chamber Goku Black Arc SSGSS Vegeta. So even at the beginning of the gfight they should be about even, with 17 arguably being slightly stronger, but there's nothing stopping Black from Zenkai-abusing 17 to death

Honestly Black should be able to destroy any DBZ character as long as they don't one-shot him in some way

 

[Peter1129]

Goku Black at his peak is stated by WoG to be the strongest non God character in the Future Trunks Saga. Which means Post-Scythe SS Rose Goku Black is stronger than End of Future Trunks Saga SSBKKx10 Goku.

Android 17 was able to match Full Power Base Toppo in a beam struggle and is also one of the few characters who's able to injure him head on. Base Toppo at full power was previously able to no sell attacks from Ultimate Gohan who is on par with Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSB Goku. Said Goku is now able to keep up with an even stronger Hit who stalemated his End of Future Trunks Saga SSB with just SSG now.

So right now the tldr scaling goes like this

Post-Scythe SS Rose Goku Black > End of Future Trunks Saga SSBKKx10 Goku

Android 17 ~< Base Toppo >> Ultimate Gohan = Pre-UIS SSB Goku 40x> Pre-UIS SSG Goku ~ Universe Survival Saga Hit > Future Trunks Saga Hit = Post-Future Trunks Saga SSB Goku

So Android 17 has a massive AP advantage that's likely enough to one shot. Not to mention he also has his Android Barrier which can block attacks from characters far stronger than him. Although Goku Black still has his broken zenkai boost and his durability negating scythe. So unless 17 goes for the kill and one shot him Black might eventually beat him. Which is why for now I think I'll hold my vote and stay neutral.

 

[KingEzran]

Last I checked, 17 is nearly on par with a Post Hyperbolic Time Chamber Goku Black Arc SSGSS Goku, while Black is became comparable to that Goku as well after adapting to Post Hyperbolic Time Chamber Goku Black Arc SSGSS Vegeta. So even at the beginning of the gfight they should be about even, with 17 arguably being slightly stronger, but there's nothing stopping Black from Zenkai-abusing 17 to death

Honestly Black should be able to destroy any DBZ character as long as they don't one-shot him in some way

Vote Black?

 

[Mickey1940]

17 was on par with SSGSS Goku before the ToP, and during the ToP he can fight someone (Toppo) who can slap someone (Gohan) who is on par with SSGSS Kaioken Goku (i think normal Kaioken)

So basically 17 gained a boost that allows him to ragdoll SSGSS Kaioken Goku

Black is on par with SSGSS Kaioken x10 Goku

So I don't see the AP stomp here. I agree that 17 might have the AP advantage, but I don't think it's enough to take down Black in a few hits.

 

[Mickey1940]

Last I checked, 17 is nearly on par with a Post Hyperbolic Time Chamber Goku Black Arc SSGSS Goku, while Black is became comparable to that Goku as well after adapting to Post Hyperbolic Time Chamber Goku Black Arc SSGSS Vegeta. So even at the beginning of the gfight they should be about even, with 17 arguably being slightly stronger, but there's nothing stopping Black from Zenkai-abusing 17 to death

Honestly Black should be able to destroy any DBZ character as long as they don't one-shot him in some way

Vote Black?

Yes, I vote Black

 

[SuperDragoon978]

Disagreed with the scaling used by Peter1129. IIRC Goku Black was only said to be the strongest non-God character by someone from Toei, not from either Toriyama or Toyotaro. The statement was said after Black was already shown being inferior to Post-RoSaT SSB Vegeta, and SSB Goku later on overpowered initial Fusion Zamasu, making him well above Black as well. So I was said Black was not as strong as U6 Saga Kaioken x10 SSB Goku.

Going by other questionable Toei statements, Ultimate Gohan was stated to be equal or relative to Android 17, not far below him. 17 was never shown be equal to Base Toppo, and was clearly shown to be on the defensive in their fight and was losing a beam struggle until Freeza intervened. One of the people who worked on Super also implied that SSB Goku>SSB Vegeta>Golden Freeza>Ultimate Gohan>Android 17, and there were DBS wafer stickers that put Ultimate Gohan>Android 17, although again these are of questionable accuracy. I don't accept them but I would still argue that SSB Goku~Golden Freeza~SSB Vegeta~Base Toppo>17~Ultimate Gohan.

In terms of the actual post, Android 17 likely has a big power and speed advantage since he scales somewhat to Pre-UIS SSB Goku who could overpower Initial Fusion Zamasu who was stronger than U6 Saga SSB Kaioken x10 Goku who would likely be above SSJ Rose Black. Unless Black improves to the point his techniques can overpower 17, I can't see how Black could win, especially with 17's Android Barrier, which tanked hits from Base Toppo and Anilaza and temporarily held up against GoD Toppo and Jiren.

I vote for 17.

Edit: I also dont think ToP Hit was only equal to Pre-UIS SSG Goku, considering Hit already fought SSB Goku Post-Future Trunks Arc and Goku got no stronger in between the Future Trunks and ToP Arcs, as well as Hit's performance against Jiren, but that's off Topic.

 

[Mickey1940]

1. I didn't disagree with the scaling? Also I'm pretty sure that Black became comparable if not superior to Post-RoSaT SSGSS Goku and Vegeta after Zenkai-ing from his beating from SSGSS Vegeta, but I might be wrong about that

2. You are confusing me now. So 17 scales to Gohan? That means that 17 scales to Post-RoSaT normal SSGSS Goku at the very least, with SSGSS Kaioken x1 being his utmost limit in terms of scaling. In your previous post you said that Post-Scythe Black => Post-RoSaT SSGSS Kaioken x10 Goku. So that means Black is over 5 times stronger than 17 now?

3. Goku Black Arc SSGSS Goku <<<<<< Initial Fusion Zamasu. SSGSS Kaioken x10 Goku was the one who pushed Zamasu back, not SSGSS Goku.


I don't disagree that 17> Black in terms of AP, but it's not large enough to the point where Black can't catch up and kill 17

 

[Peter1129]

@Mickey1940 17 never got a boost Goku said 17 was holding back in their spar before the tournament. This was pretty much confirmed in he ToP when he was able to match Base Toppo in a beam struggle. And damage him when Ultimate Gohan couldn't do it. And Ultimate Gohan was shown to be on par with Pre-UIS SSB Goku but was one shot by Pre-UIS SSBKK Goku. Pre-UIS Goku was able to hold his own against Base Dyspo with just SSG now. Base Dyspo was able to overpower Universe Survival Saga Hit who should be stronger than when he stalemated Future Trunks Saga SSB Goku.

Post-Scythe SS Rose Black scales to End of Future Trunks Saga SSBKKx10 Goku not Pre-UIS SSBKKx10 Goku according to that one statement about him being the strongest non god character during the Future Trunks Saga. If we don't accept that statement than Android 17 kinda one shots via an over 40x AP advantage.

Universe Survival Saga Pre-UIS SSG Goku is stronger than Future Trunks Saga SSB Goku which means 17 scales above a much stronger SSB Goku while Goku Black scales to a much weaker SSBKKx10 Goku.

So since SSB is the SS1 form of SSG which is a 40x multiplier on this site than Pre-UIS SSB Goku would be over 4x stronger than Post-Scythe SS Rose Black who scales to SSBKKx10 from the previous arc. And 17 is even stronger than Pre-UIS SSB via scaling. So 17 currently has a massive AP advantage that's likely enough to one shot.

 

[Peter1129]

@SuperDragoon978 The Goku Black statement was made after he pulled out the scythe and later on he was simultaneously taking on Future Trunks Saga SSB Goku And Vegeta so nothing contradicts him being that strong.

The statements with Android 17 on the other hand are constantly contradicted by what he has done in the ToP. The writer said Frieza > Gohan = Android 17 but we see that 17 could injure Base Toppo which Gohan who was equal to SSB Goku completely unable to do. Which means via scaling 17 would also be above Golden Frieza who stalemated Pre-UIS SSB Goku. The same guy that the writer said was stronger than Gohan and 17.

 

[SuperDragoon978]

@Peter1129

I know when the statement was said. Black with the Scyther was forced to rip a hole in space-time and create clones to fend off Goku and Vegeta, never fighting them on his own and agreeing to fuse with Future Zamasu, something that would be unnecessary if he was above them. And again, SSB Goku at full power overpowered Initial Fusion Zamasu, so Goku at least was Black at the time.

Gohan was never equal to SSB Goku. Close in power yes but Gohan was unable to beat Golden Freeza in their mock match while SSB Goku was equal to Freeza. 17 only fought a suppressed SSB Goku, admittedly when he was suppressed as well. 17 was losing against Base Toppo while Blue Goku equaled him (this is the most important point). 17 also considered a tired Jiren and Golden Freeza as "monsters", the same 17 who did not bother trying to fight said Jiren on his own (until he was distracted) while Freeza could. All the Out of Universe statements consistently has said that, at the very least, Goku/Vegeta/Freeza was above Gohan/17 in strength. I think that should say enough that 17 was not above Pre-UIS SSB Goku.

This is off-topic anyway so I'm probably not going to respond so this doesn't hit 500 posts or something. 17 still has my vote anyway.

 

[KingEzran]

Vote 17, Peter?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm going to vote 17 due to barriers, endless stamina, lack of ki signature and him likely scaling above Black.

17 is comparable to ToP SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta who are stronger than they were in the Black arc. An enraged SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta are capable of stomping Black (until he adapted and grew stronger).

 

[KingEzran]

bump

 

[Soulgizmo]

17 should win. He took attacks directly from jiren meant for ssbe vegeta who would likely stomp black.
17 vote

 

[Mickey1940]

nice necro