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I agree with it not being real light, our standards for real light is extremely strict. Accepting this as real light would be cherry picking and ignoring our own rules.
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Dark Souls Speed Issue
- Thread starter SheevShezarrine
- Start date
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I said they both home. Both the Sunlight and lightning spear home. If they show the ability to change direction in any way then they aren't light. Just because most of the time you see Sunlight spears going in a straight line doesn't mean they are when there are examples of traveling in different directions. Light only goes straight, if it doesn't it's not light, unless reflected, which clearly isn't the case here.Wokistan said:
Now neck it
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Yeah, that "Sunlight spear" doesn't really fit our criteria of being light. So, for now, I'll agree with the downgrades until more evidence to the contrary has been shown and have been presented in a way that makes the "sunlight spears" appear as light.
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Beamos shoot light, and it's consistent. Alttp beamos shoot light that stops midway and shoots a line like projectile. those aren't light. Same goes for sunlight spears, if they show even one example of them homing like that then that means they aren't made of light, you can't say sunlight spears sometimes are light and sometimes are that's ********. They home, are tangible and that's why they aren't light.Wokistan said:
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Sunlight spear won't home the target. That is why people use lightning spear instead of sunlight. It is a bitch to use and aim. And it's literally made out of sunlight, c'mon guys.
Wokistan
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Ah yes, I can't call something inconsistent what it is because we just don't follow that guideline all of a sudden
Its not like more than one enemy does that with them. Its literally just SOC, who's the absolute god tier of the verse and has the power of everyone who's ever linked the fire. Its seeming less far fetched to assume that SOC just does a magic thing to have SS not behave normally then using this one example to retroactively downgrade something otherwise consistent. DS3 still has divine pillars anyways,even if its terrible ingame it can still be useful here I guess
Its not like more than one enemy does that with them. Its literally just SOC, who's the absolute god tier of the verse and has the power of everyone who's ever linked the fire. Its seeming less far fetched to assume that SOC just does a magic thing to have SS not behave normally then using this one example to retroactively downgrade something otherwise consistent. DS3 still has divine pillars anyways,
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@Wok
You ignored all the people who proved they have mass because they have knockback, the are tangible, they come from one's magic, they show the ability to home. It really isn't that difficult to see they aren't light. Light ALWAYS behaves the same way. if there are examples of it not having light properties then it just isn't light holy shit.
It doesn't matter whether SOC is a god tier, Sunlight spear still isn't light because the feats go against it.
You ignored all the people who proved they have mass because they have knockback, the are tangible, they come from one's magic, they show the ability to home. It really isn't that difficult to see they aren't light. Light ALWAYS behaves the same way. if there are examples of it not having light properties then it just isn't light holy shit.
It doesn't matter whether SOC is a god tier, Sunlight spear still isn't light because the feats go against it.
Wokistan
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You seem to be getting unreasonably worked up over this. Magic can produce light, it doesn't home excluding this one inconsistency, i'll attempt to deal with the mass thing a bit later. DS3 stays relativistic either way though due to the other spell, and iirc DS2 had something else like that. I'll get back to this thread way later, though somewhat leaning towards using other stuff than SS to justify the description.
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This wanking is getting out of control and is giving me Cancer.
Light doesn't change direction. Be it once or numerous times, if it shows the ability to move in a different direction by itself it isn't natural light. Hell it doesn't even behave like it, it behaves like Lightning. and what kind of light automatically splits itself into more light.
DS characters get tagged by slower shit, like actual lighting that Gael summons during his fight. All the in game feats show characters being lightning timers, and light not being light.
Light doesn't change direction. Be it once or numerous times, if it shows the ability to move in a different direction by itself it isn't natural light. Hell it doesn't even behave like it, it behaves like Lightning. and what kind of light automatically splits itself into more light.
DS characters get tagged by slower shit, like actual lighting that Gael summons during his fight. All the in game feats show characters being lightning timers, and light not being light.
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- Thread starter
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Except Divine Pillars of Light is also discreditted as light, since it one-ups mere stagger and just straight-up launches youWokistan said:
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"DS characters get tagged by slower shit, like actual lighting that Gael summons during his fight." Do keep in mind I don't believe Reletivistic dark souls at all
but that's likely game play mechanics of them getting hit by slower stuff heck they can get tagged by supersonic and sub sonic arrow's
but that's likely game play mechanics of them getting hit by slower stuff heck they can get tagged by supersonic and sub sonic arrow's
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In addition, due to light and time being one and the same in Dark Souls, it means that it and irl light are fundamentally different
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I agree with unholy.
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I think the speed is fine, but I agree with Knight personally our standards for light are too strict in some circumstances.
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Most circumstances actually.
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To be fair, I dont know all the circumstances.Knightofannihilation666 said:
But for the record, I think we should count it for One Piece and probably Bleach.
I might be missing one more but yee.
Then again, I am biased for One Piece AND Dark Souls, so I am not gonna comment there.
I do think that the light for the above seems fine.
1. Is it stated to be sunlight? Yes.
2. Does it act like light. Kind of? Light doesn't pierce or isn't tangible, but those can be explained by either author intent or specific applications of light in our world. Light can become solid in the context of a lab, so it is possible: https://gizmodo.com/physicists-are-making-solid-light-1633885762
3. Does light change directions. No. I could be missing something here, but you light needs something to refract on to 'bounce' or change directions. Usually the most common two are water or glass.
Could be game mechanics, but I am not gonna use that personally.
Seems fine to me though.
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Alright. So this is my first time actually participating on this wiki, albiet, I have been shadowing the website for a while now and had created this profile because I felt like I would eventually come to use it. I was actually planning on posting some calculations and waiting to do enough before I dive in. However, seeing these threads kind of made me want to go ahead anyway. Please forgive any issues you may have with what I have to say here.
Regardless, in my opinion, I ,at least, somwhat agree with Relativisitc+ Souls for already stated reasons: that it's referred to as rays of the sun, that it reflects off of the Looking Glass Knight's mirror shield and that it doesn't track and simply travels straight, aside from the one Soul of Cinder attack which is the only example of it happening, which would make it an outlier/a specific effect of that one attack. I also don't find the "solid light" argument very convincing since it's likely that way for game balance reasons, namely that it would be pretty awful if an enemy/opponent didn't stagger and could just run through it while you're still in your recovery animation.
With that said, since this is a pretty contentious subject and it doesn't seem like a topic people are going to budge on, I have to ask if a comprimise can't be made? Like maybe we could revise speed to "At least Massively Hypersonic+, likely/possibly Relativistic+ with Speed of Light attack speed." I'll admit, I don't really know how things work with these sorts of things, but it's clear that this is an incredibly tired subject that seems to be going nowhere. At this rate, I'm just hoping a conclusion can be made at some point
Hopefully my first debut here didn't make me look like an idiot.
Regardless, in my opinion, I ,at least, somwhat agree with Relativisitc+ Souls for already stated reasons: that it's referred to as rays of the sun, that it reflects off of the Looking Glass Knight's mirror shield and that it doesn't track and simply travels straight, aside from the one Soul of Cinder attack which is the only example of it happening, which would make it an outlier/a specific effect of that one attack. I also don't find the "solid light" argument very convincing since it's likely that way for game balance reasons, namely that it would be pretty awful if an enemy/opponent didn't stagger and could just run through it while you're still in your recovery animation.
With that said, since this is a pretty contentious subject and it doesn't seem like a topic people are going to budge on, I have to ask if a comprimise can't be made? Like maybe we could revise speed to "At least Massively Hypersonic+, likely/possibly Relativistic+ with Speed of Light attack speed." I'll admit, I don't really know how things work with these sorts of things, but it's clear that this is an incredibly tired subject that seems to be going nowhere. At this rate, I'm just hoping a conclusion can be made at some point
Hopefully my first debut here didn't make me look like an idiot.
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@Polesis
Firstly, the glass knight shield reflects things other than Sunlight spears. It also reflects soul arrows and other magic projectiles...
As I said before, It has shown the ability to home. This is different from outlier feats or abilities. This is a consistent attack which is regarded as light. If it is to be light it has to ALWAYS follow the essential rules of light.
Sunlight spear fails to do this for several reasons
-Tangible, it can be grabbed and thrown
-It has mass and can stagger enemies way taller and heavier than you
-Going into more directions is not Outlier, it simply means it's not light, not to mention it can split into more sunlight spears. Light doesn't work this way.
It doesn't matter if it was shown only once, I already told you light always behaves the same way. You can't call something that isn't light an outlier and in most cases it's actual light.
Light in fiction either follows it's essential propertie and is light, and if it behaves differently it isn't light, even if it happened once, no one cars, light is light, and the ability to change direction works against it. At this point the Sunlight spear description is a hyperbole, as many feats go against it.
Firstly, the glass knight shield reflects things other than Sunlight spears. It also reflects soul arrows and other magic projectiles...
As I said before, It has shown the ability to home. This is different from outlier feats or abilities. This is a consistent attack which is regarded as light. If it is to be light it has to ALWAYS follow the essential rules of light.
Sunlight spear fails to do this for several reasons
-Tangible, it can be grabbed and thrown
-It has mass and can stagger enemies way taller and heavier than you
-Going into more directions is not Outlier, it simply means it's not light, not to mention it can split into more sunlight spears. Light doesn't work this way.
It doesn't matter if it was shown only once, I already told you light always behaves the same way. You can't call something that isn't light an outlier and in most cases it's actual light.
Light in fiction either follows it's essential propertie and is light, and if it behaves differently it isn't light, even if it happened once, no one cars, light is light, and the ability to change direction works against it. At this point the Sunlight spear description is a hyperbole, as many feats go against it.
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@Unholy
So what? I think your mistake here is assuming that said effect is how that shield works rather than just the properties of sorcerys in Dark Souls.
Again, it's literally only in one attack from the Soul of Cinder, a point which you, as far as I'm aware, have yet to really refute beyond "it still happened once and that's enough for me". Every other sunlight attack, on the other hand, does go straight and doesn't home in.
-Not Tangible, it's manifested via talisman and thrown for aiming purposes
-Basing the idea that it has mass on the vague idea that it staggers things. Even disregarding that it's there for game balance, there could be other reasons they're staggered, such as intense heat.
-See above
Actually, going off of the Light Dodging feats, it specifically states "lasers/light beams are only accepted as real if they meet, at a minimum, a few of these criteria". Now, you don't have to agree with this, at which point you may as well call for that page to be revised and if you suceed, then fair enough I suppose.
"no one cars"
The fact that you've been trying to die on this hill for the past few threads says otherwise.
So what? I think your mistake here is assuming that said effect is how that shield works rather than just the properties of sorcerys in Dark Souls.
Again, it's literally only in one attack from the Soul of Cinder, a point which you, as far as I'm aware, have yet to really refute beyond "it still happened once and that's enough for me". Every other sunlight attack, on the other hand, does go straight and doesn't home in.
-Not Tangible, it's manifested via talisman and thrown for aiming purposes
-Basing the idea that it has mass on the vague idea that it staggers things. Even disregarding that it's there for game balance, there could be other reasons they're staggered, such as intense heat.
-See above
Actually, going off of the Light Dodging feats, it specifically states "lasers/light beams are only accepted as real if they meet, at a minimum, a few of these criteria". Now, you don't have to agree with this, at which point you may as well call for that page to be revised and if you suceed, then fair enough I suppose.
"no one cars"
The fact that you've been trying to die on this hill for the past few threads says otherwise.
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The problem is more that it meets one of the criteria that should never be met, aka being tangiblePoiesis Element said:
It could meet literally every criteria on the first list and it wouldn't be considered light if it met any of the criteria in the second one
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@Kaltias
Which it really doesn't, at least from my prespective. The arguments for it don't really hold weight in my eyes. And no, I don't consider a programming oversite, namely the knockback, to be very convincing. I'll admit, that might just be bias talking, but I still think it's a weak argument nontheless.
Regardless, I was kind of getting off track. As I've said, if no-one can really agree on the nature of Sunlight Spear, maybe we should revise speed to be "At least Massively Hypersonic+, likely/possibly Relativistic+ with Speed of Light attack speed" since this argument hasn't gone anywhere over multiple threads.
Which it really doesn't, at least from my prespective. The arguments for it don't really hold weight in my eyes. And no, I don't consider a programming oversite, namely the knockback, to be very convincing. I'll admit, that might just be bias talking, but I still think it's a weak argument nontheless.
Regardless, I was kind of getting off track. As I've said, if no-one can really agree on the nature of Sunlight Spear, maybe we should revise speed to be "At least Massively Hypersonic+, likely/possibly Relativistic+ with Speed of Light attack speed" since this argument hasn't gone anywhere over multiple threads.
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I know a fodder when I smell one, that was a weak and an irrelevant point.Poiesis Element said:
As you can see, it is stated to deflect spells, not only that, it isn't even passive, and has to be timed to be deflected. Sunlight spears would be reflected automatically if they were light.
What part of YES or NO rule don't you understand? I told you already, The spear can travel straight a thousand times and curve once, and that is enough for it to not be light. Light behaves the same way, there are no outliers for like, neck it with that fodder logic. If the sunlight spears were light they would all move in the same direction, clearly that isn't true. Since it has been shown that Sunlight spears can actually change direction, meaning they aren't light, because all sunlight spears are the SAME. You can't call one sunlight spear outlier light because it isn't moving straight like other spears, because they are all the SAME, and if one behaves differently, then it breaks all others, that's that.
It's grabable, that alone tells you how much of a light this is. None can just grab light and throw it like that, furthermore it doesn't have the appearance of light or properties of it. SS description tells you that if someone stands close to someone in water he will get hit if thrown at it. That's how electricity behaves.
Also what the Kaltias told you, one criteria isn0t met and it's a deal breaker.
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@Unholy
Alright, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to try and come off as desperate. I honestly didn't know that was an effect. I still sort of disagree with you, but now I realise I'm arguing from a position of weakness/ignorance.
Regardless, I'm done. It's obvious that I'm really not accustom to online conversation, let alone this sort of thing. If you really don't want me here, fine. I'll go. I concede. I'll let everyone else who's much more experienced with this continue. I'll admit, while I do probably have a bias towards Dark Soul, I honestly don't care for the results of this, or at least I really shouldn't. I get really anxious talking with people in any online discussion, let alone when on such a heated topic. Everyone can carry on without me.
Also, could you please not call me "fodder."
Alright, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to try and come off as desperate. I honestly didn't know that was an effect. I still sort of disagree with you, but now I realise I'm arguing from a position of weakness/ignorance.
Regardless, I'm done. It's obvious that I'm really not accustom to online conversation, let alone this sort of thing. If you really don't want me here, fine. I'll go. I concede. I'll let everyone else who's much more experienced with this continue. I'll admit, while I do probably have a bias towards Dark Soul, I honestly don't care for the results of this, or at least I really shouldn't. I get really anxious talking with people in any online discussion, let alone when on such a heated topic. Everyone can carry on without me.
Also, could you please not call me "fodder."
Wokistan
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Upon going through DS2 again, I'm more inclined to agree with SS not being considering real light, considering that the Mirror Knight's shield also reflects even quite clearly tangible stuff like arrows and firebombs in the same manner. I disagree with Divine pillars not being considered light on the grounds that it does knockback though. One, it throwing people like that is likely due to it using the same base coding as firestorm, clearly not a light spell, and that without the spell having some sort of knockback it would be absolutely useless. Other things that do knockback include clumps of shit and clouds of poisonous mist, which obviously wouldn't do knockback either. I'd probably consider that one due to game mechanics myself. 2, there's also the angels in the Dreg Heap who barrage you with beams of light, and from all the videos I've seen those don't do knockback. In fact, part of the reason they killed people so fast pre patch was that they don't knock you down so being hit by one would just force you to eat all the rest rather than giving you your getup IFrames. Divine pillars is connected to these angels in lore, and as such it should be the same type of light, giving more credence to the idea that divine pillars knockback is a game mechanic. Angel beams don't home in on you, the only liquid is toxic mud, they aren't gripped, and there's nothing reflective in the area, so those seem fine. Downgrade the other 2 maybe, but I feel like DS3 should still be safe.
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Unholy, you are acting like a jerk.
Even if you were right, your constant ad hominems by calling everyone 'fodder' is not helping your case.
Even if you were right, your constant ad hominems by calling everyone 'fodder' is not helping your case.
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Kinkestfodder.
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KnightofFodder ; )Knightofannihilation666 said:
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Foddokistan.
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@Unholy
It's alright. I understand how frustrating it can be with these sorts of things. I also apologise for being a bit snarky. Anyway, no more derailing. Sorry.
It's alright. I understand how frustrating it can be with these sorts of things. I also apologise for being a bit snarky. Anyway, no more derailing. Sorry.
