Dark Samus/Metroid Prime (creature) Revision

[Armorchompy]

This is a thread addressing Dark Samus' profile and its various inaccuracies. It's a bit longer than I would like it to be, but I didn't want to split it, given I've been making a lot of Metroid threads already. Please try to remain civil in discussing it.

Feats (Leviathan, Phaaze and Travel Speed)​

So quick note, nothing actually changes any tier right now, because all of the tiers have backup feats, but the feats are still wrong and should be removed.

Let's start with the really easy one, the travel speed. Samus' profile says "kept pace with Dark Samus, whom would be forced to fly from planet to planet at different edges of the galaxy". However, the Japanese MP2 Q&A says she warped there, instead of flying.

Then we have Dark Samus' (And Samus') scaling to the Leviathans. This is what the profiles say:

1. "PED Suit Samus is capable of defeating Leviathan Guardians and overloading a Leviathan's core.": This is true but neither of those scale to the full thing. Guardians are just that: Phazon creatures guarding the Core, and as for those Cores, there's no statement that they're the source of the Leviathan's power or anything, they're just a vital organ of the Leviathan. Hell it might not even be that, We know the core lives after the death of the Leviathan, so it might actually be more of a symbiotic thing, but regardless they just don't scale to the Levs' full AP.
2. "Tallon Metroids survived the collision of the Leviathan on Tallon IV within the NA version; in both versions, the Tallon Metroid that would eventually become Dark Samus survived an encounter with the core of the Leviathan and likely killed it.": The first part is non-canon (The NA script hasn't been used since the original version of the game, replaced by the PAL version's[NOTE]. Also, surface area would lower the value of this by a lot), and the latter claim is false, because there is simply no reason to assume that happened. Leviathan Guardians, which Metroid Prime fits the description of perfectly, are nothing other than powerful local creatures that the core mutates with Phazon to have them guard their area- which is exactly what it's doing.
   1. Something else to note is that Metroid Prime scaling to a Leviathan core would create a massive scaling loop, given MP3 Samus cannot even scratch them without Hypermode. It scaling to it as a normal, to-be-significantly-mutated Tallon IV Metroid is even worse in that regard. Not that it matters much since as mentioned above, cores don't scale to the full thing.

NOTE: Dark Samus' profile claims that "While the NA and PAL versions of Metroid Prime have major lore differences, it has not been officially mentioned whether one is canon over the other. Even though the latest release, the Wii & Wii-U versions of Metroid Prime: Trilogy uses the PAL version of the lore, this was likely done due to the PAL version exclusively having Wii motion controls which were necessary for the Trilogy re-release." Nowadays, we have a new remaster of the first Metroid Prime, built with a new control scheme, that still uses the Trilogy/PAL script. Additionally, the claim that it was used out of sheer necessity was always very silly, given that swapping the text is about the easiest change you can ever make to a videogame, and that Trilogy actually does have changes in its script compared to the PAL version it's based on (I often refer to it as PAL because that's what everyone calls it and to differentiate from NTSC, but I'm using Trilogy for these revisions). Finally the PAL version was originally made for the Gamecube, and they could have freely used either script for the Trilogy version on the Wii- yet they went with that one in every country.

Finally, Dark Samus' profile says this: "Became one with an entire planet composed of Phazon, granting her far more power than she had ever achieved before." So, this is referring to Dark Samus taking control of Phaaze, which she does do, but not in such a direct way. Let's start with the easy bit: In her boss battle, Dark Samus frequently heals herself by drawing from Phaaze's energy. There's much more evidence to this, namely the fact that Dark Samus needs the Aurora Unit to control Phaaze and cause it to send its Leviathans out- not the sign of someone who can freely harness its full power. In conclusion, Dark Samus is not "one" with Phaaze, and even if she were, she has still been shown to be unable to wield its full power in battle (Not even when fused with the AU- that just lets her command Phaaze better). Note that she can draw from Phaaze indefinitely, so there isn't an argument that she's getting a massive portion of its power every time, since it'd run out if that was the case.

Regeneration​

Alright, so, High regen is very canon, no need to worry about that. However, the profile says that it "Became At least Low-Godly, was able to regenerate after being dissipated into thin air in a dimension that was destroyed not too long after". That did happen, but we also have a pretty straightforward statement that she regenerated from her particles, which floated into space, which sort of shuts down the whole assumption.

Moving on to Metroid Prime 3, we get "Likely Mid-Godly. Even as near end-game Dark Samus, she was shown to be potentially able to survive complete essence destruction, and given that her Regeneration scales to the amount of Phazon she has, she has likely reached the ability to completely regenerate from it", with zero scans, of course.

1. The essence bit is referencing her last MP2 scan, which states that Samus' attacks will "disrupt her essence". Now, first off, "disrupt" very much does not equal "complete destruction", which is already grounds to throw away the entire thing.
2. Secondly, we also know that she did not get "completely destroyed", given the particles bit regarding the Low-Godly stuff.
3. Third off, the idea that "essence" equals "soul" is based on Phazon being capable of affecting Chozo Ghosts (Outside of that souls are straight-up never mentioned in the entire Prime series, to my knowledge), which it can, but the only showing it has of doing that is a Phazon-infested environment rendering said ghosts erratic and aggressive. To go from that to "Phazon-based attacks will destroy your entire soul" is a massive leap, and indeed nobody who is ever exposed to Phazon has to deal with that in the series. The only other times "essence" is mentioned in the series is regarding Metroid Prime's Core Essence, which has very little lore but is seemingly corporeal, and the Alimbics' essence transference, which refers to them turning themselves into psychic energy.
4. Finally, even if literally all of the above was fine, the entire reasoning for Mid-Godly can be summarized as "Was previously Low-Godly, and enhanced her regeneration greatly, so she is now Mid-Godly" with zero evidence to back that up, and that alone is a baseless leap of logic that we should not allow.

Other P&A​

Alright so, here's the sandbox for Dark Samus' P&A, lots of additions and some removals, let's go through them. I'm not gonna include stuff that's just reworded or changed between one power and another (Like for example if something goes from Shapeshifting to Transformation, I don't think that's worth pointing out)

1. Metroid Prime: Most notable thing about this one is it gets split between Exoskeleton and Core Essence in P&A, given neither can use the other's abilities. Second most notable thing is Dark Samus also does not inherit its P&A because it's sort of contradicted that she does, Samus can only harm MP's Core Essence with the Phazon Beam, meanwhile even just in her Varia Suit Samus can hurt Dark Samus no problem. Keep in mind that to my knowledge (And I might have just forgotten cause this was a pretty recent realization, but I did go through a good amount of stuff, even Palutena's Guidance lol) we don't really know much about the exact process of Dark Samus' creation besides the fact that it was done with the Phazon Suit and Samus' genetic information, we don't know if it's MP regenerating and gaining power, taking on a different form to survive, making an offspring of some sort- bottom line is I don't think there's a way to safely assert she kept those powers. Doesn't really matter since she exhibits most on her own anyways (She wouldn't inherit the exoskeleton's P&A anyways given that's due to bodily weaponry that is obviously not kept), but y'know.
   1. REMOVALS
      1. Regeneration (Low-High. In-scan lore stated that she regenerated from the few left over cells after its fight with Samus): She did, but needed to absorb the Phazon Suit to do that- it's not something it could do in most situations.
      2. Acid Manipulation (Capable of firing several smaller shots of energy with an acidic effect, or reflecting the current elemental form Metroid Prime is in): I'm not sure why the latter is supposed to be acid but I don't know what the first attack is supposed to be, I think it's the Plasma Beam orbs which indeed have a burning sfx? But that's just heat obviously.
      3. Attack Reflection (The exoskeleton of the Metroid Prime deflects projectile attacks upon contact): This is a thing but only in NTSC GC Metroid Prime, they no longer deal damage while bouncing back afterwards, and Samus' beams do ricochet off some surfaces so I don't think that's really a P&A.
      4. Invulnerability (Cannot be damaged through convential attacks, save for ones empowered by Phazon) + Intangibility (Immaterial): It's just durability
      5. Self-Sustenance: Type 1 is fine but why 2 and 3?
      6. Large Size Type 1 becomes Type 0. I couldn't find a proper reference for MP's size and it's hard to gauge given it's a first-person game, but I get 8-ish meter tall vibes? IDK, if anyone has better proof either way please do tell.
      7. Resistance to Absolute Zero (I checked, we don't list the Ice Beam as AZ, IDK why it's there. If I had to guess it's scaling off the Judicator, which makes sense but that is also only near AZ so it's fine to just list as Temp resistance)
   2. ADDITIONS
      1. Bodily Weaponry, Breath Attack, Explosion Manipulation and Inorganic Physiology are all obvious
      2. Thread Manipulation off this thing
2. Metroid Prime 2: So the big thing I want to talk about now is Dark Samus inheriting Samus' P&A. It doesn't have an explanation on the profile but I think it's due to her being created off the Phazon Suit's genetic information, which let MP read Samus' mind/memories, but that doesn't really mean it could create a 100% perfect copy of Samus, or that it would even inherit her mental abilities. Having read someone's memories doesn't mean you have the ability to do all that they do, we don't give every other Telepath all the intelligence feats of whoever they read the minds of. However, Dark Samus does get to keep all powers associated with the Power/Varia Suit, which is nice. I plan to eventually revise Samus' P&A butwe're using the current one right now, since I'm still not done with that.
   1. REMOVAL: Intangibility (Spatial): I just don't know what this is from, man.
   2. ADDITIONS:
      1. Info Analysis off the phazon suit stuff, Forcefield Manip, a few abilities she'd lose from the Samus thing, Transformation, Incorporeality, Vibration, Danmaku, Stat Amp, Energy Manip, a few resistances to samus' stuff
      2. Moved the Mindhax stuff here since it's an ability she showcases the moment she regenerates on the space pirates' ships right after mp2, before the big boosts. The bit where she corrupts the hunters stays in 3 though.
      3. Enhanced Senses off being able to see while she was just a few Phazon particles
3. Metroid Prime 3: No big changes here, besides the addition of P&A for the Aurora Unit, which isn't really much.
   1. ADDITIONS: Mind Manip + Corruption, Multilocation for the shadow clones that appear after you kill Rundas/Ghor/Gandrayda, Creation for summoning big chunks of solid Phazon, better Vibration and Flight, Stat Amp.

Other Things​

Intelligence: Scan for the ship thing. It's untrue that DS had never seen a ship before, she had on Aether and she'd be pretty familiar with them anyways through Samus' memories (reminder that Samus designed her ship in MP3), but given it's still significantly improving on a whole ass species' worth of engineers I'd say it's still genius at minimum. She should also probably have higher intelligence (Unsure if EG) when fused with the Aurora Unit.

Stamina: "Limitless (The Phazon she's infused with allows her to fight forever without tiring)". There's no source for this, and I'm pretty sure it's just complete fabrication. Away it goes.

Range: "Interstellar with most weapons, akin to Samus". Samus has Stellar range. "Universal (Stated to be capable of corrupting the entirety of the universe had she not been foiled by Samus and the galactic federation. Should be superior to the Leviathan, which has been stated multiple times to be able to launch themselves across the universe.)". Yes, she would have corrupted the universe, overtime, by launching Leviathans across it. And I shouldn't need to explain why doing that isn't a universal range feat, even for the Leviathans.

Finally, Dark Samus is >> Samus by the end of MP2, so that's a neat little boost to the scaling chain.

 

[Roachman40]

crt looks good

 

[Newendigo]

About time we get rid of that pesky Godly regen

 

[JJSliderman]

Let's start with the really easy one, the travel speed. Samus' profile says "kept pace with Dark Samus, whom would be forced to fly from planet to planet at different edges of the galaxy". However, the Japanese MP2 Q&A says she warped there, instead of flying.

Agreed, although in Prime 3 we see Dark Samus’s shadow clone physically flying away from all the battles with the hunters (presumably back to Phaaze) rather than teleporting, and this DS is significantly above the one who first arrived on Aether, and we have other characters with physical spatial travel capabilities like Ridley, so I feel like it could still exist as possible travel speed.

Then we have Dark Samus' (And Samus') scaling to the Leviathans. This is what the profiles say:

1. "PED Suit Samus is capable of defeating Leviathan Guardians and overloading a Leviathan's core.": This is true but neither of those scale to the full thing. Guardians are just that: Phazon creatures guarding the Core, and as for those Cores, there's no statement that they're the source of the Leviathan's power or anything, they're just a vital organ of the Leviathan. Hell it might not even be that, We know the core lives after the death of the Leviathan, so it might actually be more of a symbiotic thing, but regardless they just don't scale to the Levs' full AP.

They might scale to the Leviathan’s durability though, whenever Samus blows up a Leviathan core the resulting outburst of power from it can fully destroy the Leviathan (albeit only seen with the baby versions)

Finally, Dark Samus' profile says this: "Became one with an entire planet composed of Phazon, granting her far more power than she had ever achieved before." So, this is referring to Dark Samus taking control of Phaaze, which she does do, but not in such a direct way. Let's start with the easy bit: In her boss battle, Dark Samus frequently heals herself by drawing from Phaaze's energy. There's much more evidence to this, namely the fact that Dark Samus needs the Aurora Unit to control Phaaze and cause it to send its Leviathans out- not the sign of someone who can freely harness its full power. In conclusion, Dark Samus is not "one" with Phaaze, and even if she were, she has still been shown to be unable to wield its full power in battle (Not even when fused with the AU- that just lets her command Phaaze better). Note that she can draw from Phaaze indefinitely, so there isn't an argument that she's getting a massive portion of its power every time, since it'd run out if that was the case.

In a sense, the Aurora Unit is one with Phaaze, because the planet immediately blows up as soon as the Aurora Unit is dead. Even if Dark Samus outside the unit isn’t fused with the planet, she is once inside the unit.

Regeneration​

Moving on to Metroid Prime 3, we get "Likely Mid-Godly. Even as near end-game Dark Samus, she was shown to be potentially able to survive complete essence destruction, and given that her Regeneration scales to the amount of Phazon she has, she has likely reached the ability to completely regenerate from it", with zero scans, of course.

1. The essence bit is referencing her last MP2 scan, which states that Samus' attacks will "disrupt her essence". Now, first off, "disrupt" very much does not equal "complete destruction", which is already grounds to throw away the entire thing.
2. Secondly, we also know that she did not get "completely destroyed", given the particles bit regarding the Low-Godly stuff.
3. Third off, the idea that "essence" equals "soul" is based on Phazon being capable of affecting Chozo Ghosts (Outside of that souls are straight-up never mentioned in the entire Prime series, to my knowledge), which it can, but the only showing it has of doing that is a Phazon-infested environment rendering said ghosts erratic and aggressive. To go from that to "Phazon-based attacks will destroy your entire soul" is a massive leap, and indeed nobody who is ever exposed to Phazon has to deal with that in the series. The only other times "essence" is mentioned in the series is regarding Metroid Prime's Core Essence, which has very little lore but is seemingly corporeal, and the Alimbics' essence transference, which refers to them turning themselves into psychic energy.

Phazon would naturally upscale Samus’s basic beam attacks, which are capable of destroying the souls of the Chozo (even when they’re phasing in and out of existence). Moreover there is other technology in the series that can destroy souls, like Samus regularly destroying Phantoon’s astral form. The fact that the Aurora Unit and all other sources essentially confirm that the PED is the only way to fight back against Dark Samus hints that standard soul destroying technology is not effective.

Other P&A​

1. Metroid Prime: Most notable thing about this one is it gets split between Exoskeleton and Core Essence in P&A, given neither can use the other's abilities. Second most notable thing is Dark Samus also does not inherit its P&A because it's sort of contradicted that she does, Samus can only harm MP's Core Essence with the Phazon Beam, meanwhile even just in her Varia Suit Samus can hurt Dark Samus no problem. Keep in mind that to my knowledge (And I might have just forgotten cause this was a pretty recent realization, but I did go through a good amount of stuff, even Palutena's Guidance lol) we don't really know much about the exact process of Dark Samus' creation besides the fact that it was done with the Phazon Suit and Samus' genetic information, we don't know if it's MP regenerating and gaining power, taking on a different form to survive, making an offspring of some sort- bottom line is I don't think there's a way to safely assert she kept those powers. Doesn't really matter since she exhibits most on her own anyways (She wouldn't inherit the exoskeleton's P&A anyways given that's due to bodily weaponry that is obviously not kept), but y'know.
   1. REMOVALS
      1. Invulnerability (Cannot be damaged through convential attacks, save for ones empowered by Phazon) + Intangibility (Immaterial): It's just durability

It does state in the scan log that it becomes invulnerable to everything barring the Phazon beam, which has a bunch of dura negging properties. Also, since Metroid Prime is a Metroid that is heavily boosted by Phazon, it shares a lot of similarities with the Phazon Metroid, which does have the ability to turn intangible via phasing out of local timespace.

Metroid Prime 2: So the big thing I want to talk about now is Dark Samus inheriting Samus' P&A. It doesn't have an explanation on the profile but I think it's due to her being created off the Phazon Suit's genetic information, which let MP read Samus' mind/memories, but that doesn't really mean it could create a 100% perfect copy of Samus, or that it would even inherit her mental abilities. Having read someone's memories doesn't mean you have the ability to do all that they do, we don't give every other Telepath all the intelligence feats of whoever they read the minds of. However, Dark Samus does get to keep all powers associated with the Power/Varia Suit, which is nice. I plan to eventually revise Samus' P&A butwe're using the current one right now, since I'm still not done with that.

Dark Samus does demonstrate multiple abilities Samus has (namely the mental ones like telepathy in the intro of Prime 3 and astral projection with the forms she takes after the hunters are defeated). So she clearly inherited multiple aspects Samus is capable of outside the suit.

1. REMOVAL: Intangibility (Spatial): I just don't know what this is from, man.

Multiple creatures enhanced by Phazon demonstrate the ability to phase out of local time space (dark commandos, Chozo ghosts, Phazon metroids), and Dark Samus as the master of Phazon should obviously be capable of the same. Even her shadow clones just completely phase through Samus’s shots, despite Samus with those same power beam shots being capable of tagging Dark Commandos and Chozo Ghosts.

Other Things​

Range: "Interstellar with most weapons, akin to Samus". Samus has Stellar range.

True but Samus does have interstellar range with environment detection using her power suit (which DS also has)

"Universal (Stated to be capable of corrupting the entirety of the universe had she not been foiled by Samus and the galactic federation. Should be superior to the Leviathan, which has been stated multiple times to be able to launch themselves across the universe.)". Yes, she would have corrupted the universe, overtime, by launching Leviathans across it. And I shouldn't need to explain why doing that isn't a universal range feat, even for the Leviathans.

If she can corrupt the entire universe, which has an infinite size statement, then inherently she would be spreading corruption across space as well. They don’t say that she would only corrupt every planet in the universe and leave everything else untouched.

Finally, Dark Samus is >> Samus by the end of MP2, so that's a neat little boost to the scaling chain.

True, but Samus does also survive a huge blast from beginning of Prime 3 DS and remains conscious long enough to fire the defense cannon, as opposed to the other hunters who were immediately knocked out, so Samus’s durability in Prime 3 could maybe downscale Prime 2 DS.

 

[Armorchompy]

Agreed, although in Prime 3 we see Dark Samus’s shadow clone physically flying away from all the battles with the hunters (presumably back to Phaaze) rather than teleporting, and this DS is significantly above the one who first arrived on Aether, and we have other characters with physical spatial travel capabilities like Ridley, so I feel like it could still exist as possible travel speed.

Eh she's also got the Pirates to worry about, probably more fighting to do, and she could just be leaving to teleport a second later, I don't think her flying outside the room is enough to say she kept flying across so many solar systems.

They might scale to the Leviathan’s durability though, whenever Samus blows up a Leviathan core the resulting outburst of power from it can fully destroy the Leviathan (albeit only seen with the baby versions)

You're right, but being dead the Leviathans proper don't really have Phazon empowering them anymore. There's also the fact that as you say it's only the weaker infants we see it happen with- we don't actually know what even happens to the bodies of "full" Leviathans, both in MP1 and MP2 we don't see neither the Leviathan nor the Core, just the Phazon they release. We don't even know if the Leviathans scale to their durability, frankly, given they die upon making impact.

In a sense, the Aurora Unit is one with Phaaze, because the planet immediately blows up as soon as the Aurora Unit is dead. Even if Dark Samus outside the unit isn’t fused with the planet, she is once inside the unit.

I guess in a sense it's "fused" with the planet but in the same way a brain is fused with a body, it can just exert control over Phaaze, nothing says it can actually wield all of that power when it's confronted directly. Admittedly Phaaze blowing up is weird but there's clearly something special going on with that, given it's actually all of the Phazon in the universe being destroyed- somehow AU313 being destroyed caused that whole chain reaction.

Phazon would naturally upscale Samus’s basic beam attacks, which are capable of destroying the souls of the Chozo (even when they’re phasing in and out of existence). Moreover there is other technology in the series that can destroy souls, like Samus regularly destroying Phantoon’s astral form. The fact that the Aurora Unit and all other sources essentially confirm that the PED is the only way to fight back against Dark Samus hints that standard soul destroying technology is not effective.

Being capable of attacking ghosts is not Soul Manipulation, it's just NPI: "It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate souls in other contexts". Same for attacking Phantoon who isn't actually a ghost, though the wrecked ship does have actual ones. Besides, Samus' beams having soulhax would absolutely contrast a bunch of things (Like somehow not soulhaxing Mother Brain... and Ridley... and Kraid... and every other recurring boss...)

It does state in the scan log that it becomes invulnerable to everything barring the Phazon beam, which has a bunch of dura negging properties.

Yeah but we don't really know it's not through durability.

Also, since Metroid Prime is a Metroid that is heavily boosted by Phazon, it shares a lot of similarities with the Phazon Metroid, which does have the ability to turn intangible via phasing out of local timespace.

Phazon Metroids have a certain, specific animation when phasing that MP's core never does. Not to mention other Phazon-infected Metroids in MP1 and 2 don't do that. Pretty sure that also does make them immune to Hyper Mode attacks.

Dark Samus does demonstrate multiple abilities Samus has (namely the mental ones like telepathy in the intro of Prime 3 and astral projection with the forms she takes after the hunters are defeated). So she clearly inherited multiple aspects Samus is capable of outside the suit.

No? The dream at the beginning is just Samus having some vague telepathic clairvoyance (Why would Dark Samus alert her to her actions? She's a pretty pragmatic villain, not really the type to sabotage herself like that), and the "astral projection" is more likely Phazon clones born from the Phazon inside the Hunters. Admittedly we don't really know what's going on in either situation but the odds of it being a reference to Samus' P&A is very slim, given they behave in ways completely different from Samus' abilities.

Multiple creatures enhanced by Phazon demonstrate the ability to phase out of local time space (dark commandos, Chozo ghosts, Phazon metroids), and Dark Samus as the master of Phazon should obviously be capable of the same. Even her shadow clones just completely phase through Samus’s shots, despite Samus with those same power beam shots being capable of tagging Dark Commandos and Chozo Ghosts.

Said shadow clones are also clearly not solid, and the ability to hit ghosts is unrelated compared to the ability to hit vapors.

True but Samus does have interstellar range with environment detection using her power suit (which DS also has)

That's true, I guess.

If she can corrupt the entire universe, which has an infinite size statement, then inherently she would be spreading corruption across space as well. They don’t say that she would only corrupt every planet in the universe and leave everything else untouched.

Obviously it's talking about the planets, they're the only thing DS is shown to target and to have the ability to target, plus space is empty, outside of planets and a few things. There's basically nothing else to corrupt.

The feat is also overtime.

True, but Samus does also survive a huge blast from beginning of Prime 3 DS and remains conscious long enough to fire the defense cannon, as opposed to the other hunters who were immediately knocked out, so Samus’s durability in Prime 3 could maybe downscale Prime 2 DS.

Eh, that's kind of a weird loop where it's Varia Suit << Dark Suit << Light Suit < Dark Samus >> Varia Suit. Not to mention she does get knocked out, she just briefly manages to regain consciousness before falling into a coma- not really ideal means for scaling, especially when you consider that the other hunters, who are likely weaker, still did survive the blast and even woke up a week before she did.

 

[Armorchompy]

You're right, but being dead the Leviathans proper don't really have Phazon empowering them anymore. There's also the fact that as you say it's only the weaker infants we see it happen with- we don't actually know what even happens to the bodies of "full" Leviathans, both in MP1 and MP2 we don't see neither the Leviathan nor the Core, just the Phazon they release.

Something else I just realized, Phazon beings just seem to fall apart when they die. Look at stuff like Ridley who gets defeated, flails in pain a bit and then just explodes. Fairly likely it's not sheer AP but just the entire thing crumbling. Could also explain the AU stuff though that's not really useful either way.

 

[JJSliderman]

Eh she's also got the Pirates to worry about, probably more fighting to do, and she could just be leaving to teleport a second later, I don't think her flying outside the room is enough to say she kept flying across so many solar systems.

She would be upscaling Ridley by this point, who can physically fly between solar systems (seeing as he flew from SR388 in Samus Returns to the Ceres Space Colony and then to Zebes, all without visibly seeing a ship on screen). Plus, her warping is only stated to be short range, not the wormhole tiers that Leviathans have, and it was established that standard hyperspace travel would not be enough to reach Phaaze (even with a series of short range jumps, hence why they needed the Leviathan at all), so the chance that the spirit warped from Bryyo to Phaaze is pretty low.

Suppose it does, but being dead the Leviathans proper don't really have Phazon empowering them anymore. There's also the fact that as you say it's only the weaker infants we see it happen with- we don't actually know what even happens to the bodies of "full" Leviathans, both in MP1 and MP2 we don't see neither the Leviathan nor the Core, just the Phazon they release.

If that’s what occurs with the baby leviathans, I think naturally it would happen to the big ones as well, seeing as both the leviathan’s outer shell and the core would grow stronger with maturity. We also see the Impact Crater (which contains the original leviathan from Tallon IV’s remains) immediately self-destruct on the “death” of Metroid Prime. Given that there is a Phazon Core room in the Impact Crater, but no Leviathan Core, it strongly implied it was absorbed by the Metroid Prime (seeing as the reaction of the Impact Crater is identical to the ones of the Prime 3 seeds after the death of their cores).

I guess in a sense it's "fused" with the planet but in the same way a brain is fused with a body, it can just exert control over Phaaze, nothing says it can actually wield all of that power when it's confronted directly. Admittedly Phaaze blowing up is weird but there's clearly something special going on with that, given it's actually all of the Phazon in the universe being destroyed- somehow AU313 being destroyed caused that whole chain reaction.

If the AU was just a brain, quote unquote, then Phaaze would still be able to exist without it, seeing as it’s a sentient being and would have the same regeneration as Dark Samus, due to being a Phazon being. The planet blowing up with the unit wouldn’t make sense unless Samus did something to the entire planet, or the planet was expending all its energy on Dark Samus and the AU at the time.

Being capable of attacking ghosts is not Soul Manipulation, it's just NPI: "It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate souls in other contexts". Same for attacking Phantoon who isn't actually a ghost, though the wrecked ship does have actual ones. Besides, Samus' beams having soulhax would absolutely contrast a bunch of things (Like somehow not soulhaxing Mother Brain... and Ridley... and Kraid... and every other recurring boss...)

Still, Phazon affecting the soul is smthn that it can do, and Samus and the power suit are aware of this due to the existence of Chozo lore confirming as such (The “Entrusted One” lore). Moreover, if DS can regenerate from nothing but pure Phazon particles, even if there was only an atom of solid Phazon left, then it would stand to reason that she could also use any Phazon to regenerate as long as her “soul” existed, since her high regen was from a far inferior version of herself. Dark Samus has inherited Chozo DNA, the Chozo can exist and fight only as souls with no physical body, it would stand to reason DS can do so as well.

Yeah but we don't really know it's not through durability.

The same kind of thing gets reiterated throughout the rest of the series, like how in Prime 2 DS’s forcefield can’t be damaged by anything but Phazon, or how in Prime 3 its stated that only Hypermode can actually damage DS (despite Samus having a beam that specifically allows phasing through phazite and other armor types)

Phazon Metroids have a certain, specific animation when phasing that MP's core never does. Not to mention other Phazon-infected Metroids in MP1 and 2 don't do that.

We do see the core shift between different states that require different visors to view, and Metroid Prime has obviously absorbed far more Phazon than an average Phazon infected Metroid. Granted, the visors thing is more shifting between visibility states.

No? The dream at the beginning is just Samus having some vague telepathic clairvoyance (Why would Dark Samus alert her to her actions? She's a pretty pragmatic villain, not really the type to sabotage herself like that), and the "astral projection" is more likely Phazon clones born from the Phazon inside the Hunters. Admittedly we don't really know what's going on in either situation but the odds of it being a reference to Samus' P&A is very slim, given they behave in ways completely different from Samus' abilities.

DS also interferes with Samus’s life support systems in that cutscene, so it’s not just Samus having a dream.

Said shadow clones are also clearly not solid, and the ability to hit ghosts is unrelated compared to the ability to hit vapors.

If Samus can hit beings that are phased out of existence completely like the Chozo Ghosts, then she should be able to hit DS if the latter is part of the material plane, even if DS was just vapor. Plus, it just makes sense for DS to have the abilities of generic fodder Phazon infected beings.

Eh, that's kind of a weird loop where it's Varia Suit << Dark Suit << Light Suit < Dark Samus >> Varia Suit. Not to mention she does get knocked out, she just briefly manages to regain consciousness before falling into a coma- not really ideal means for scaling, especially when you consider that the other hunters, who are likely weaker, still did survive the blast and even woke up a week before she did.

Tbf Samus could have just gotten stronger, Dark Suit and Light Suit are vague undefined amps.

 

[Armorchompy]

She would be upscaling Ridley by this point, who can physically fly between solar systems (seeing as he flew from SR388 in Samus Returns to the Ceres Space Colony and then to Zebes, all without visibly seeing a ship on screen).

This is a matter for another thread, but no, Ridley has his own feats and just her having more Phazon than him doesn't mean she can magically replicate literally everything he can do ever, given they have completely different methods of flight.

Plus, her warping is only stated to be short range, not the wormhole tiers that Leviathans have, and it was established that standard hyperspace travel would not be enough to reach Phaaze (even with a series of short range jumps, hence why they needed the Leviathan at all), so the chance that the spirit warped from Bryyo to Phaaze is pretty low.

We also know for sure the Space Pirates are capable of reaching Phaaze, given they brought and installed the AU there, (probably) brought Metroids there and were there to fight off the Galactic Federation, so that's not evidence she flew there either.

If that’s what occurs with the baby leviathans, I think naturally it would happen to the big ones as well, seeing as both the leviathan’s outer shell and the core would grow stronger with maturity.

Not really, they're different stages of a life cycle. Besides, the fact that the Leviathan is already dead, and thus no longer has Phazon powering it, remains.

We also see the Impact Crater (which contains the original leviathan from Tallon IV’s remains) immediately self-destruct on the “death” of Metroid Prime. Given that there is a Phazon Core room in the Impact Crater, but no Leviathan Core, it strongly implied it was absorbed by the Metroid Prime (seeing as the reaction of the Impact Crater is identical to the ones of the Prime 3 seeds after the death of their cores).

"Which contains the original leviathan" no it isn't, we literally don't see it, we don't know what happened to it, it's probably in there somewhere but we don't know what happens to it, we don't know that it's destroyed by MP3's death.

If the AU was just a brain, quote unquote, then Phaaze would still be able to exist without it, seeing as it’s a sentient being and would have the same regeneration as Dark Samus, due to being a Phazon being. The planet blowing up with the unit wouldn’t make sense unless Samus did something to the entire planet, or the planet was expending all its energy on Dark Samus and the AU at the time.

Neither of those would explain the destruction of all Phazon in the universe. Clearly it's just some form of chain reaction, it doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it.

Still, Phazon affecting the soul is smthn that it can do

All it can do is vaguely corrupt ghosts in a non-combat applicable way. Soul destruction on hit it ain't.

Moreover, if DS can regenerate from nothing but pure Phazon particles, even if there was only an atom of solid Phazon left, then it would stand to reason that she could also use any Phazon to regenerate as long as her “soul” existed, since her high regen was from a far inferior version of herself.

No it doesn't. That's literally just making a random guess and saying it COULD be true. Nobody says "oh he had Mid regen, but then it got better, so he probably has Low-High now", you need feats.

Dark Samus has inherited Chozo DNA, the Chozo can exist and fight only as souls with no physical body, it would stand to reason DS can do so as well.

No she hasn't, and we literally know that she can't because she gets broken into particles and she does not keep fighting as a ghost in MP2.

Something else to note, if DS really did have Mid-Godly, why did she die at the end of MP3? Samus didn't hit her with anything beyond raw AP and what you allege to be soulhax, all of which she could easily regenerate from with Mid-Godly. Even if you want to say AU's destruction did her in, it would just destroy the Phazon, not her... whatever you claim she's regenerating from.

The same kind of thing gets reiterated throughout the rest of the series, like how in Prime 2 DS’s forcefield can’t be damaged by anything but Phazon, or how in Prime 3 its stated that only Hypermode can actually damage DS (despite Samus having a beam that specifically allows phasing through phazite and other armor types)

Yes, because she is really really durable, and we already know that she resists all of Samus' weapon hax (not affected by stuff like the Ice Beam or the Annihilator/Dark Beam's charged shots beyond taking damage, etc). Plus all of the hax that Phazon attacks would hit her with she resists anyways, it can't really be anything other than AP.

It's also never stated Hypermode can actually damage DS. It's claimed it's the only thing that can defeat her, but that is before Samus discovers the Nova Beam (which is space pirate tech unknown to the federation), and when you do fight Dark Samus you're forced into permanent Hypermode, so you can't test if the rest works.

We do see the core shift between different states that require different visors to view, and Metroid Prime has obviously absorbed far more Phazon than an average Phazon infected Metroid. Granted, the visors thing is more shifting between visibility states.

Meanwhile the Metroid remains visible at all times, even while phasing. It's pretty clearly not the same thing,

DS also interferes with Samus’s life support systems in that cutscene, so it’s not just Samus having a dream.

Huh, okay, fair enough, I'll put dream manip on DS. Rest of the point still stands, though.

If Samus can hit beings that are phased out of existence completely like the Chozo Ghosts, then she should be able to hit DS if the latter is part of the material plane, even if DS was just vapor.

No. That's just not how that works, they're just unrelated things, you don't "upscale" NPI, it's different types, essentially different abilities. Also they're explicitly stated to be partially phased out of existence.

Plus, it just makes sense for DS to have the abilities of generic fodder Phazon infected beings.

No, because this is not an ability that they are granted through Phazon, it's something inherent to them. It's like saying she'd get Large Size Type 1 and Cyborgization.

Tbf Samus could have just gotten stronger, Dark Suit and Light Suit are vague undefined amps.

They're pretty sizable amps, we know base DS (as in, the first boss fight) in MP2 is already stronger than Varia and Samus gets amped a lot in 2 (Base > Dark/Light Beam >> Dark Suit > Annihilator Beam >> Light Suit). And she was known as the best hunter in the universe before that so Rund/Gand/Ghor being >> her previous state would be weird.

 

[JJSliderman]

This is a matter for another thread, but no, Ridley has his own feats and just her having more Phazon than him doesn't mean she can magically replicate literally everything he can do ever, given they have completely different methods of flight.

She’s a stronger, faster being than him in terms of reactions and such, and she can physically fly, not sure why she wouldn’t be able to match his flight pace.

We also know for sure the Space Pirates are capable of reaching Phaaze, given they brought and installed the AU there, (probably) brought Metroids there and were there to fight off the Galactic Federation, so that's not evidence she flew there either.

The space pirates didn’t go to Phaaze with their technology, they found a Leviathan and that brought DS to Phaaze according to space pirate logs.

Not really, they're different stages of a life cycle. Besides, the fact that the Leviathan is already dead, and thus no longer has Phazon powering it, remains.

And the fact that the leviathan core’s explosion (or something related to it) destroys the outer shell also remains. The core could manage to contain that power within itself without overloading, yet Hypermode Samus could overload the cores.

"Which contains the original leviathan" no it isn't, we literally don't see it, we don't know what happened to it, it's probably in there somewhere but we don't know what happens to it, we don't know that it's destroyed by MP3's death.

We see the original Phazon core room that is standard to all Leviathan seeds in the crater area (it’s even called “Phazon Core” in the room names list, which is what the core is named in the leviathan battleship scan).

Neither of those would explain the destruction of all Phazon in the universe. Clearly it's just some form of chain reaction, it doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it.

All Phazon in the universe originated from Phaaze, Phazon itself is sentient, so if you look at it from the perspective that all Phazon is just an extension of Phaaze it works in that way.

All it can do is vaguely corrupt ghosts in a non-combat applicable way. Soul destruction on hit it ain't.

Phazon is also an attack and has destructive power, if it wanted to destroy the souls it absolutely could via its upscaling Samus’s technology giving it NPI. But getting more troops on Team Phazon is a more viable option. Moreover it’s not vague, the Phazon mindhaxxes their souls.

No it doesn't. That's literally just making a random guess and saying it COULD be true. Nobody says "oh he had Mid regen, but then it got better, so he probably has Low-High now", you need feats.

She goes from at most Low-High to High after absorbing small amounts of Phazon, which is a difference of at least 10s of times in potency, and she absorbs far more Phazon past that point and into the third game, not to mention many Phazon enhanced entities can form Phazon around themselves to act as armor or new body structure. I don’t doubt DS being able to do so as well.

No she hasn't, and we literally know that she can't because she gets broken into particles and she does not keep fighting as a ghost in MP2.

Cuz Phazon also disrupted and damaged her soul (because that’s also part of her essence), and she was an unstable being (as noted by her fourth scan in P2). Getting bombarded by Phazon attacks forces it to retreat as it realizes it can’t beat Samus, and fighting as a soul wouldn’t do anything to change the outcome. And, yes, she had Chozo DNA, because Samus is part Chozo and the suit is definitely part Chozo.

Something else to note, if DS really did have Mid-Godly, why did she die at the end of MP3? Samus didn't hit her with anything beyond raw AP and what you allege to be soulhax, all of which she could easily regenerate from with Mid-Godly. Even if you want to say AU's destruction did her in, it would just destroy the Phazon, not her... whatever you claim she's regenerating from.

I’m not really arguing mid godly, just low godly, which would still need the soul to survive (of which DS lacked along with extra Phazon to aid the regen process)

It's also never stated Hypermode can actually damage DS. It's claimed it's the only thing that can defeat her, but that is before Samus discovers the Nova Beam (which is space pirate tech unknown to the federation), and when you do fight Dark Samus you're forced into permanent Hypermode, so you can't test if the rest works.

Space pirate tech is usually inferior to the stuff Samus has anyway in terms of firepower, even when they made their own versions of Samus’ beams in the first Prime they were all inferior versions. And even if the nova beam could kill DS or damage it, the beam bypasses durability anyway via frequency shifting shenanigans, so it wouldn’t be “stronger” than Hypermode. In fact, the Phazon cores give a direct answer to this question, as even in their baby selves they are immune to everything besides Hypermode (including the nova beam given you get it before the Pirate Seed)

Meanwhile the Metroid remains visible at all times, even while phasing. It's pretty clearly not the same thing,

Yeah, okay, maybe MP doesn’t have it. DS should though, given the PM has no other alternative to give it phasing besides Phazon itself (unlike the Dark Commandos and Chozo Ghosts which you can chalk up to dark world physiology or ghost physiology)

No. That's just not how that works, they're just unrelated things, you don't "upscale" NPI, it's different types, essentially different abilities. Also they're explicitly stated to be partially phased out of existence.

No, because this is not an ability that they are granted through Phazon, it's something inherent to them. It's like saying she'd get Large Size Type 1 and Cyborgization.

Same as previously, Phazon Metroids definitely have to be getting their intangibility from Phazon (seeing as Metroids don’t have that power).

They're pretty sizable amps, we know base DS (as in, the first boss fight) in MP2 is already stronger than Varia and Samus gets amped a lot in 2 (Base > Dark/Light Beam >> Dark Suit > Annihilator Beam >> Light Suit). And she was known as the best hunter in the universe before that so Rund/Gand/Ghor being >> her previous state would be weird.

Er, no, there’s nothing indicating DS is > Samus at the beginning of Prime 2 given Samus beats her then, and in their second fight. The dark and light beams aren’t really stated to be strength amps so much as adding extra abilities to Samus’ beam shots, the dark suit just increases Samus’ resistance to Phazon, Annihilator beam is the same deal as dark and light beam (just combined), and light suit has already been established in the previous thread to not amp Samus’ strength at all.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

i think its STUPID and WRONG and UGLY

...Onto the evaluation.

Let's start with the really easy one, the travel speed. Samus' profile says "kept pace with Dark Samus, whom would be forced to fly from planet to planet at different edges of the galaxy". However, the Japanese MP2 Q&A says she warped there, instead of flying.

As usual: if a legitimate translation, seems good, no notes.

"PED Suit Samus is capable of defeating Leviathan Guardians and overloading a Leviathan's core.": This is true but neither of those scale to the full thing. Guardians are just that: Phazon creatures guarding the Core, and as for those Cores, there's no statement that they're the source of the Leviathan's power or anything, they're just a vital organ of the Leviathan. Hell it might not even be that, We know the core lives after the death of the Leviathan, so it might actually be more of a symbiotic thing, but regardless they just don't scale to the Levs' full AP.

This, too, seems sensible.

"Tallon Metroids survived the collision of the Leviathan on Tallon IV within the NA version; in both versions, the Tallon Metroid that would eventually become Dark Samus survived an encounter with the core of the Leviathan and likely killed it.": The first part is non-canon (The NA script hasn't been used since the original version of the game, replaced by the PAL version's[NOTE]. Also, surface area would lower the value of this by a lot), and the latter claim is false, because there is simply no reason to assume that happened. Leviathan Guardians, which Metroid Prime fits the description of perfectly, are nothing other than powerful local creatures that the core mutates with Phazon to have them guard their area- which is exactly what it's doing.

1. Something else to note is that Metroid Prime scaling to a Leviathan core would create a massive scaling loop, given MP3 Samus cannot even scratch them without Hypermode. It scaling to it as a normal, to-be-significantly-mutated Tallon IV Metroid is even worse in that regard. Not that it matters much since as mentioned above, cores don't scale to the full thing.

Gonna be upset if I have to just say "seems reasonable" to each bit when dissecting it to address each part like this. But. Seems reasonable.

Finally, Dark Samus' profile says this: "Became one with an entire planet composed of Phazon, granting her far more power than she had ever achieved before." So, this is referring to Dark Samus taking control of Phaaze, which she does do, but not in such a direct way. Let's start with the easy bit: In her boss battle, Dark Samus frequently heals herself by drawing from Phaaze's energy. There's much more evidence to this, namely the fact that Dark Samus needs the Aurora Unit to control Phaaze and cause it to send its Leviathans out- not the sign of someone who can freely harness its full power. In conclusion, Dark Samus is not "one" with Phaaze, and even if she were, she has still been shown to be unable to wield its full power in battle (Not even when fused with the AU- that just lets her command Phaaze better). Note that she can draw from Phaaze indefinitely, so there isn't an argument that she's getting a massive portion of its power every time, since it'd run out if that was the case.

Tend to prefer more conservative interpretations, this seems like it fits that bill, agree.

Alright, so, High regen is very canon, no need to worry about that. However, the profile says that it "Became At least Low-Godly, was able to regenerate after being dissipated into thin air in a dimension that was destroyed not too long after". That did happen, but we also have a pretty straightforward statement that she regenerated from her particles, which floated into space, which sort of shuts down the whole assumption.

Y/N

Moving on to Metroid Prime 3, we get "Likely Mid-Godly. Even as near end-game Dark Samus, she was shown to be potentially able to survive complete essence destruction, and given that her Regeneration scales to the amount of Phazon she has, she has likely reached the ability to completely regenerate from it", with zero scans, of course.

1. The essence bit is referencing her last MP2 scan, which states that Samus' attacks will "disrupt her essence". Now, first off, "disrupt" very much does not equal "complete destruction", which is already grounds to throw away the entire thing.
2. Secondly, we also know that she did not get "completely destroyed", given the particles bit regarding the Low-Godly stuff.
3. Third off, the idea that "essence" equals "soul" is based on Phazon being capable of affecting Chozo Ghosts (Outside of that souls are straight-up never mentioned in the entire Prime series, to my knowledge), which it can, but the only showing it has of doing that is a Phazon-infested environment rendering said ghosts erratic and aggressive. To go from that to "Phazon-based attacks will destroy your entire soul" is a massive leap, and indeed nobody who is ever exposed to Phazon has to deal with that in the series. The only other times "essence" is mentioned in the series is regarding Metroid Prime's Core Essence, which has very little lore but is seemingly corporeal, and the Alimbics' essence transference, which refers to them turning themselves into psychic energy.
4. Finally, even if literally all of the above was fine, the entire reasoning for Mid-Godly can be summarized as "Was previously Low-Godly, and enhanced her regeneration greatly, so she is now Mid-Godly" with zero evidence to back that up, and that alone is a baseless leap of logic that we should not allow.

yeah (acknowledging now that I'm reading the discussion since the OP with JJ)

I'll try to get to the rest of this, figure you'd want a half-evaluation rather than nothing in case I lose my focus again.

 

[Armorchompy]

She’s a stronger, faster being than him in terms of reactions and such, and she can physically fly, not sure why she wouldn’t be able to match his flight pace.

She flies by hovering, he's got wings, it's just a completely unrelated mechanism.

The space pirates didn’t go to Phaaze with their technology, they found a Leviathan and that brought DS to Phaaze according to space pirate logs.

... So Dark Samus doesn't fly to Phaaze but uses Leviathans to warp there.

And the fact that the leviathan core’s explosion (or something related to it) destroys the outer shell also remains. The core could manage to contain that power within itself without overloading, yet Hypermode Samus could overload the cores.

I said something different- the shell of a dead Leviathan doesn't scale to anything.

Not that it matters given Samus only affects the juvenile ones.

We see the original Phazon core room that is standard to all Leviathan seeds in the crater area (it’s even called “Phazon Core” in the room names list, which is what the core is named in the leviathan battleship scan).

Ok but we don't see the shell, and we don't see what happens to the shell, and your argument is based on the shell being destroyed, which we don't know happens, so that doesn't matter at all.

All Phazon in the universe originated from Phaaze, Phazon itself is sentient, so if you look at it from the perspective that all Phazon is just an extension of Phaaze it works in that way.

It really doesn't. If Phazon could freely draw energy from separate batches of Phazon without proximity Dark Samus would have absorbed all of it well before MP3. But let's say it does- Aurora Unit having become the "brain" of Phaaze kills it upon its own death, causing the subsequent death of all Phazon. My interpretation holds just as much weight.

Phazon is also an attack and has destructive power, if it wanted to destroy the souls it absolutely could via its upscaling Samus’s technology giving it NPI.

No. That's not how it works.

She goes from at most Low-High to High after absorbing small amounts of Phazon, which is a difference of at least 10s of times in potency, and she absorbs far more Phazon past that point and into the third game, not to mention many Phazon enhanced entities can form Phazon around themselves to act as armor or new body structure. I don’t doubt DS being able to do so as well.

Cuz Phazon also disrupted and damaged her soul (because that’s also part of her essence), and she was an unstable being (as noted by her fourth scan in P2). Getting bombarded by Phazon attacks forces it to retreat as it realizes it can’t beat Samus, and fighting as a soul wouldn’t do anything to change the outcome.

Stop making shit up and saying it could be true. I'm tired of needing to address random bullshit you claim might be correct because "this acts as a precedent" or "if you view it this way it actually makes sense"- bring actual evidence of it being real or I'm ignoring your arguments from now on.

Space pirate tech is usually inferior to the stuff Samus has anyway in terms of firepower, even when they made their own versions of Samus’ beams in the first Prime they were all inferior versions. And even if the nova beam could kill DS or damage it, the beam bypasses durability anyway via frequency shifting shenanigans, so it wouldn’t be “stronger” than Hypermode.

You know what, you're right, Hyperbeam is the strongest weapon in terms of AP in Samus' arsenal, and that's why it can harm Dark Samus. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Yeah, okay, maybe MP doesn’t have it. DS should though, given the PM has no other alternative to give it phasing besides Phazon itself (unlike the Dark Commandos and Chozo Ghosts which you can chalk up to dark world physiology or ghost physiology)

Same as previously, Phazon Metroids definitely have to be getting their intangibility from Phazon (seeing as Metroids don’t have that power).

Phazon just interacts in unique ways with various beings, just being that she is the strongest Phazon creature doesn't make her a composite- as you can tell from the various bosses in the game also not having all of the other weaker Phazon creatures' P&A.

Er, no, there’s nothing indicating DS is > Samus at the beginning of Prime 2 given Samus beats her then, and in their second fight. The dark and light beams aren’t really stated to be strength amps so much as adding extra abilities to Samus’ beam shots, the dark suit just increases Samus’ resistance to Phazon, Annihilator beam is the same deal as dark and light beam (just combined), and light suit has already been established in the previous thread to not amp Samus’ strength at all.

It's literally stated that Dark Samus' version of the Varia Suit is augmented. The Dark and Light Beams inflict more damage than the Power Beam, the Dark Suit provides a defensive upgrade (like literally every other suit in the series, i don't think we're gonna go and say they don't make her stronger), Annihilator Beam is absolutely much stronger, and we never agreed that the Light Suit didn't make her stronger, we just said it didn't scale to the LoA.

 

[JJSliderman]

She flies by hovering, he's got wings, it's just a completely unrelated mechanism.

That seems very semantics-esque, they both fly.

... So Dark Samus doesn't fly to Phaaze but uses Leviathans to warp there.

Sometimes. There wasn’t exactly a leviathan for Dark Samus’s multilocation clone to use near Bryyo or Elysia.

I said something different- the shell of a dead Leviathan doesn't scale to anything.

The shell has no evidence of getting weaker after the leviathan dies.

Ok but we don't see the shell, and we don't see what happens to the shell, and your argument is based on the shell being destroyed, which we don't know happens, so that doesn't matter at all.

I’d argue the impact crater dungeon is the shell, given how it’s overloaded with aged Phazon, has a Phazon core, and the whole thing explodes when killing MP.

It really doesn't. If Phazon could freely draw energy from separate batches of Phazon without proximity Dark Samus would have absorbed all of it well before MP3. But let's say it does- Aurora Unit having become the "brain" of Phaaze kills it upon its own death, causing the subsequent death of all Phazon. My interpretation holds just as much weight.

Phaaze shouldn’t die without a “brain”, it should have the same regen as Dark Samus due to being entirely composed of Phazon, meaning it should be able to regenerate from anything besides atomic disruption. It had to have been some other phenomena like regen neg.

No. That's not how it works.

You’ve already stated Phazon is an attacking, offensive power substance, and a substance more powerful than Samus’ basic beams, and a substance that can interact with souls period, I see no reason why Phazon shouldn’t be able to destroy souls like Samus’ beams.

Stop making shit up and saying it could be true. I'm tired of needing to address random bullshit you claim might be correct because "this acts as a precedent" or "if you view it this way it actually makes sense"- bring actual evidence of it being real or I'm ignoring your arguments from now on.

Omega Ridley, someone far less experienced with Phazon, could generate Phazon and put it around himself, same with Mogenar. Dark Samus absolutely can create Phazon and add it to her body. All the stuff I said about DS being unstable and the “essence” including the soul is true, that was seen in-game. And you’ve already argued that Phazon is really strong, strong enough to heavily damage Dark Samus, and that it damaged DS to the point the latter couldn’t fight anymore. You’ve also noted DS does not have unlimited stamina, it being unable to fight but still being able to regenerate is feasible (because a natural instinct is self-preservation). Dark Samus feasibly has all the components necessary to be able to fight as a soul or without a body (has Chozo DNA and Phazon enhancement like Chozo ghosts), and can add Phazon to her body due to scaling above less experienced Phazon users (Ridley and Mogenar), so I maintain she can use low godly regen.

You know what, you're right, Hyperbeam is the strongest weapon in terms of AP in Samus' arsenal, and that's why it can harm Dark Samus. Thanks for agreeing with me.

My point was moreso that dura neg weapons like the nova beam don’t work on higher tier Phazon beings like Phazon cores and Dark Samus. Like a dura neg resistance, which I’ll concede is different from invulnerability (but they also constantly use the word “invulnerable”)

Phazon just interacts in unique ways with various beings, just being that she is the strongest Phazon creature doesn't make her a composite- as you can tell from the various bosses in the game also not having all of the other weaker Phazon creatures' P&A.

Considering Dark Samus is also a hybrid of Metroid and Phazon that just gives even more credence to the idea she should have this ability, along with her clones (which are just an extension of herself) being able to phase through Samus’s shots, despite Samus already being able to hit beings like the aforementioned Chozo ghosts and Dark Commandos when they phase out of local time space.

It's literally stated that Dark Samus' version of the Varia Suit is augmented. The Dark and Light Beams inflict more damage than the Power Beam, the Dark Suit provides a defensive upgrade (like literally every other suit in the series, i don't think we're gonna go and say they don't make her stronger), Annihilator Beam is absolutely much stronger, and we never agreed that the Light Suit didn't make her stronger, we just said it didn't scale to the LoA.

Clearly it wasn’t augmented by that much if Samus won anyway, without using any kind of cheap tactic. At best maybe you can say DS’s shinespark knockoff is stronger since Samus can’t damage DS in that state. The Dark and Light Beam average out to doing as much damage as the power beam, since both are double/half effective depending on the environment. The AB I’ll admit but it’s only a 2x boost, not really that substantial, and the light and dark suit only decreases damage over time from Dark Aether, not general enemy attacks. The suit itself doesn’t even seem to be that substantial a strength boost, given Varia Samus pretty easily beat Amorbis amped by the dark suit.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Should be superior to the Leviathan, which has been stated multiple times to be able to launch themselves across the universe.

Wouldn't it be likely they could warp across the universe then? Could be universe range on a teleport/portal whatever.

Agree with the rest.

 

[Armorchompy]

That seems very semantics-esque, they both fly.

With entirely different methods. They're essentially unrelated abilities that have the same result.

Sometimes. There wasn’t exactly a leviathan for Dark Samus’s multilocation clone to use near Bryyo or Elysia.

There were pirate bases on both of those planets- who said she was traveling to Phaaze?

The shell has no evidence of getting weaker after the leviathan dies.

You agree Phazon is the source of power for creatures such as a Leviathan, right? Why would you assume they keep that power once they're no longer living?

I’d argue the impact crater dungeon is the shell, given how it’s overloaded with aged Phazon, has a Phazon core, and the whole thing explodes when killing MP.

Headcanon.

Phaaze shouldn’t die without a “brain”, it should have the same regen as Dark Samus due to being entirely composed of Phazon, meaning it should be able to regenerate from anything besides atomic disruption. It had to have been some other phenomena like regen neg.

Headcanon.

You’ve already stated Phazon is an attacking, offensive power substance, and a substance more powerful than Samus’ basic beams, and a substance that can interact with souls period, I see no reason why Phazon shouldn’t be able to destroy souls like Samus’ beams.

It can interact with souls by corrupting them overtime, or by hitting them directly. Neither of those proves it deals soulhax. Neither does the PB.

All the stuff I said about DS being unstable and the “essence” including the soul is true, that was seen in-game. And you’ve already argued that Phazon is really strong, strong enough to heavily damage Dark Samus, and that it damaged DS to the point the latter couldn’t fight anymore. You’ve also noted DS does not have unlimited stamina, it being unable to fight but still being able to regenerate is feasible (because a natural instinct is self-preservation). Dark Samus feasibly has all the components necessary to be able to fight as a soul or without a body (has Chozo DNA and Phazon enhancement like Chozo ghosts), and can add Phazon to her body due to scaling above less experienced Phazon users (Ridley and Mogenar), so I maintain she can use low godly regen.

No it's not. You've entirely made up the soulhax, or that "essence" means soul. The basis on which you're arguing Low-Godly is simply fake.

Also, please prove that Chozo DNA is what is required to fight as a soul. Raven Beak doesn't do it, the Zebes Chozo don't do it, the only time we see it happen is the Tallon IV Chozo. It's much less likely to be a biological feature of them than I dunno, something achieved via training/enlightnenment/whatever.

My point was moreso that dura neg weapons like the nova beam don’t work on higher tier Phazon beings like Phazon cores and Dark Samus. Like a dura neg resistance, which I’ll concede is different from invulnerability (but they also constantly use the word “invulnerable”)

Definition of invulnerable: "Impossible to damage". VSBW definition of invulnerable: "Impossible to damage via means other than sheer durability". They are not the same. Duraneg weapons not working is fine, I don't disagree with that.

Considering Dark Samus is also a hybrid of Metroid and Phazon that just gives even more credence to the idea she should have this ability, along with her clones (which are just an extension of herself) being able to phase through Samus’s shots, despite Samus already being able to hit beings like the aforementioned Chozo ghosts and Dark Commandos when they phase out of local time space.

We don't even know if she actually is Metroid Prime or simply a being created by it, let alone if she actually keeps any of her properties as a Metroid.

I've already stated the vapor echoes being intangible isn't the same, I'm not going to do it twice.

Clearly it wasn’t augmented by that much if Samus won anyway, without using any kind of cheap tactic. At best maybe you can say DS’s shinespark knockoff is stronger since Samus can’t damage DS in that state. The Dark and Light Beam average out to doing as much damage as the power beam, since both are double/half effective depending on the environment. The AB I’ll admit but it’s only a 2x boost, not really that substantial, and the light and dark suit only decreases damage over time from Dark Aether, not general enemy attacks. The suit itself doesn’t even seem to be that substantial a strength boost, given Varia Samus pretty easily beat Amorbis amped by the dark suit.

I don't care. Someone getting one-shot isn't material to scale just because they manage to briefly wake up, and MP3 Dark Samus is equal to a much stronger Samus undergoing a stomp-worthy amp.

Wouldn't it be likely they could warp across the universe then? Could be universe range on a teleport/portal whatever.

Agree with the rest.

This is probably true yeah

 

[JJSliderman]

With entirely different methods.

I don’t really see the difference, entities like Gorea have been shown to travel through space without wings before.

There were pirate bases on both of those planets- who said she was traveling to Phaaze?

The only known leviathan seed off-Phaaze was on the pirate homeworld, and why would Dark Samus’s astral clone body go to a random pirate base? What would it do afterwards?

You agree Phazon is the source of power for creatures such as a Leviathan, right? Why would you assume they keep that power once they're no longer living?

The leviathan is still filled with Phazon even after it dies, and the leviathan core is also still alive. And I don’t think there’s any evidence saying that the leviathan is only super durable because Phazon is constantly pumped into its superstructure when it’s alive.

Headcanon.

Even though the events of the crater play out nigh identical to an average seed in Prime 3, so it’s more correlation than headcanon.

Headcanon.

Phazon nigh-universally grants regenerative capabilities as shown by the pirate experiments in the first game, and Phaaze is the biggest and original source of Phazon, so it has more Phazon power than Dark Samus 2. Ergo, should have better regen. Even Omega Ridley got regen of some kind, given he came back from exploding.

It can interact with souls by corrupting them overtime, or by hitting them directly. Neither of those proves it deals soulhax. Neither does the PB.

Corrupting a soul = soul manipulation since it is manipulating a soul. And the original Phazon strain that corrupted the Tallon Chozo didn’t corrupt them by striking bodiless souls, because that part is exclusive to North America. The Tallon Chozo most likely got corrupted down to the soul level because it worked its way down from biological to soul level. Sure, it’s not soul destruction, but it’s fairly easy to make transitive logic that Phazon attacks can destroy souls, even if it’s not exactly always able to do so when the soul is in the body.

No it's not. You've entirely made up the soulhax, or that "essence" means soul. The basis on which you're arguing Low-Godly is simply fake.

How is it fake that a person’s essence in Metroid includes the soul and/or mind when this is seen with the Chozo; the Alimbics, the ghosts in the wrecked ship, etc? How is it fake that Phazon corrupted the Chozo’s souls when that’s in every version of the game?

Also, please prove that Chozo DNA is what is required to fight as a soul. Raven Beak doesn't do it, the Zebes Chozo don't do it, the only time we see it happen is the Tallon IV Chozo. It's much less likely to be a biological feature of them than I dunno, something achieved via training/enlightnenment/whatever.

Except the part where they mentioned they achieved enlightenment being what allowed them to travel to a higher dimensional plane is North American exclusive. Moreover Raven Beak was already possessed by the time he feasibly would need to fight as a soul, and Samus destroys the X parasite containing his DNA anyway. And uh, the Zebes Chozo are shown moving around as souls in the manga, Samus joining Grey Voice’s spirit is a thing.

Definition of invulnerable: "Impossible to damage". VSBW definition of invulnerable: "Impossible to damage via means other than sheer durability". They are not the same. Duraneg weapons not working is fine, I don't disagree with that.

If she was actually too durable then the scan logs would have noted that, instead of saying DS is outright “immune” to any non-Phazon weapons.

We don't even know if she actually is Metroid Prime or simply a being created by it, let alone if she actually keeps any of her properties as a Metroid.

She has the ability to absorb powers from defeated entities like a Metroid, given she absorbed Rundas’ ice generation and gained the power to do it herself. That’s standard Metroid fare, along with absorbing energy in general due to being seen absorbing Phazon. And again, Metroids have no inherent intangibility so saying this specific combo of Metroid and Phazon allowed for it doesn’t make sense.

I've already stated the vapor echoes being intangible isn't the same, I'm not going to do it twice.

It’s still intangibility though?

I don't care. Someone getting one-shot isn't material to scale just because they manage to briefly wake up, and MP3 Dark Samus is equal to a much stronger Samus undergoing a stomp-worthy amp.

Fine.

 

[Deagonx]

Let's start with the really easy one, the travel speed. Samus' profile says "kept pace with Dark Samus, whom would be forced to fly from planet to planet at different edges of the galaxy". However, the Japanese MP2 Q&A says she warped there, instead of flying.

Simple enough, agree with the removal.

Then we have Dark Samus' (And Samus') scaling to the Leviathans. This is what the profiles say:

1. "PED Suit Samus is capable of defeating Leviathan Guardians and overloading a Leviathan's core.": This is true but neither of those scale to the full thing. Guardians are just that: Phazon creatures guarding the Core, and as for those Cores, there's no statement that they're the source of the Leviathan's power or anything, they're just a vital organ of the Leviathan. Hell it might not even be that, We know the core lives after the death of the Leviathan, so it might actually be more of a symbiotic thing, but regardless they just don't scale to the Levs' full AP.

Agree. I don't see a clear basis for scaling.

Finally, Dark Samus' profile says this: "Became one with an entire planet composed of Phazon, granting her far more power than she had ever achieved before." So, this is referring to Dark Samus taking control of Phaaze, which she does do, but not in such a direct way. Let's start with the easy bit: In her boss battle, Dark Samus frequently heals herself by drawing from Phaaze's energy. There's much more evidence to this, namely the fact that Dark Samus needs the Aurora Unit to control Phaaze and cause it to send its Leviathans out- not the sign of someone who can freely harness its full power. In conclusion, Dark Samus is not "one" with Phaaze, and even if she were, she has still been shown to be unable to wield its full power in battle (Not even when fused with the AU- that just lets her command Phaaze better). Note that she can draw from Phaaze indefinitely, so there isn't an argument that she's getting a massive portion of its power every time, since it'd run out if that was the case.

Agreed. Drawing from a power source doesn't automatically justify scaling to the power source. If someone can use magic, and we know there's some giant reservoir of magic that all mages draw from to do magic, mages don't automatically scale to all magic.

Alright, so, High regen is very canon, no need to worry about that. However, the profile says that it "Became At least Low-Godly, was able to regenerate after being dissipated into thin air in a dimension that was destroyed not too long after". That did happen, but we also have a pretty straightforward statement that she regenerated from her particles, which floated into space, which sort of shuts down the whole assumption.

Agreed, that's just high regen.

Moving on to Metroid Prime 3, we get "Likely Mid-Godly. Even as near end-game Dark Samus, she was shown to be potentially able to survive complete essence destruction, and given that her Regeneration scales to the amount of Phazon she has, she has likely reached the ability to completely regenerate from it", with zero scans, of course.

1. The essence bit is referencing her last MP2 scan, which states that Samus' attacks will "disrupt her essence". Now, first off, "disrupt" very much does not equal "complete destruction", which is already grounds to throw away the entire thing.
2. Secondly, we also know that she did not get "completely destroyed", given the particles bit regarding the Low-Godly stuff.
3. Third off, the idea that "essence" equals "soul" is based on Phazon being capable of affecting Chozo Ghosts (Outside of that souls are straight-up never mentioned in the entire Prime series, to my knowledge), which it can, but the only showing it has of doing that is a Phazon-infested environment rendering said ghosts erratic and aggressive. To go from that to "Phazon-based attacks will destroy your entire soul" is a massive leap, and indeed nobody who is ever exposed to Phazon has to deal with that in the series. The only other times "essence" is mentioned in the series is regarding Metroid Prime's Core Essence, which has very little lore but is seemingly corporeal, and the Alimbics' essence transference, which refers to them turning themselves into psychic energy.
4. Finally, even if literally all of the above was fine, the entire reasoning for Mid-Godly can be summarized as "Was previously Low-Godly, and enhanced her regeneration greatly, so she is now Mid-Godly" with zero evidence to back that up, and that alone is a baseless leap of logic that we should not allow.

Agreed on all of the above. Disrupt =/= destroy, and she canonically was not destroyed past the level of particles.

REMOVALS

1. Regeneration (Low-High. In-scan lore stated that she regenerated from the few left over cells after its fight with Samus): She did, but needed to absorb the Phazon Suit to do that- it's not something it could do in most situations.
2. Acid Manipulation (Capable of firing several smaller shots of energy with an acidic effect, or reflecting the current elemental form Metroid Prime is in): I'm not sure why the latter is supposed to be acid but I don't know what the first attack is supposed to be, I think it's the Plasma Beam orbs which indeed have a burning sfx? But that's just heat obviously.
3. Attack Reflection (The exoskeleton of the Metroid Prime deflects projectile attacks upon contact): This is a thing but only in NTSC GC Metroid Prime, they no longer deal damage while bouncing back afterwards, and Samus' beams do ricochet off some surfaces so I don't think that's really a P&A.
4. Invulnerability (Cannot be damaged through convential attacks, save for ones empowered by Phazon) + Intangibility (Immaterial): It's just durability
5. Self-Sustenance: Type 1 is fine but why 2 and 3?
6. Large Size Type 1 becomes Type 0. I couldn't find a proper reference for MP's size and it's hard to gauge given it's a first-person game, but I get 8-ish meter tall vibes? IDK, if anyone has better proof either way please do tell.
7. Resistance to Absolute Zero (I checked, we don't list the Ice Beam as AZ, IDK why it's there. If I had to guess it's scaling off the Judicator, which makes sense but that is also only near AZ so it's fine to just list as Temp resistance)

These removals check out, as well.

Metroid Prime 2: So the big thing I want to talk about now is Dark Samus inheriting Samus' P&A. It doesn't have an explanation on the profile but I think it's due to her being created off the Phazon Suit's genetic information, which let MP read Samus' mind/memories, but that doesn't really mean it could create a 100% perfect copy of Samus, or that it would even inherit her mental abilities. Having read someone's memories doesn't mean you have the ability to do all that they do, we don't give every other Telepath all the intelligence feats of whoever they read the minds of. However, Dark Samus does get to keep all powers associated with the Power/Varia Suit, which is nice. I plan to eventually revise Samus' P&A butwe're using the current one right now, since I'm still not done with that.

1. REMOVAL: Intangibility (Spatial): I just don't know what this is from, man.
2. ADDITIONS:
   1. Info Analysis off the phazon suit stuff, Forcefield Manip, a few abilities she'd lose from the Samus thing, Transformation, Incorporeality, Vibration, Danmaku, Stat Amp, Energy Manip, a few resistances to samus' stuff
   2. Moved the Mindhax stuff here since it's an ability she showcases the moment she regenerates on the space pirates' ships right after mp2, before the big boosts. The bit where she corrupts the hunters stays in 3 though.
   3. Enhanced Senses off being able to see while she was just a few Phazon particles

Sound.

Other Things​

Intelligence: Scan for the ship thing. It's untrue that DS had never seen a ship before, she had on Aether and she'd be pretty familiar with them anyways through Samus' memories (reminder that Samus designed her ship in MP3), but given it's still significantly improving on a whole ass species' worth of engineers I'd say it's still genius at minimum. She should also probably have higher intelligence (Unsure if EG) when fused with the Aurora Unit.

Stamina: "Limitless (The Phazon she's infused with allows her to fight forever without tiring)". There's no source for this, and I'm pretty sure it's just complete fabrication. Away it goes.

Range: "Interstellar with most weapons, akin to Samus". Samus has Stellar range. "Universal (Stated to be capable of corrupting the entirety of the universe had she not been foiled by Samus and the galactic federation. Should be superior to the Leviathan, which has been stated multiple times to be able to launch themselves across the universe.)". Yes, she would have corrupted the universe, overtime, by launching Leviathans across it. And I shouldn't need to explain why doing that isn't a universal range feat, even for the Leviathans.

Makes sense.

I'm in full agreement. These are essentially self-evident.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don’t really see the difference, entities like Gorea have been shown to travel through space without wings before.

Right, Gorea has absolutely nothing to do with this, so that's another pointless thing to bring up. Yes, you can be MFTL+ without wings. That doesn't mean that the flight mechanism is the same, and therefore you shouldn't compare them.

The only known leviathan seed off-Phaaze was on the pirate homeworld, and why would Dark Samus’s astral clone body go to a random pirate base? What would it do afterwards?

I dunno, why would it go to Phaaze? We don't know anything either way, we don't even know where Dark Samus is until the last few hours of the game, you're the one making some random claim and expecting we go with it as canon when it could at best be a possibility. Here's some headcanon of my own, maybe it went to give the Pirates orders. Maybe DS' warping ability was amped by the amount of Phazon she took in in MP3, and now is enough to make the trip to and from Phaaze. Maybe they just didn't think about it.

Even though the events of the crater play out nigh identical to an average seed in Prime 3, so it’s more correlation than headcanon.

The events of literally every Metroid game's ending plays out the same way, mate. Don't think there was a Leviathan in Zebes. Metroid Prime exploded, and the crater began to collapse. That's what we're told- rest is headcanon.

Phazon nigh-universally grants regenerative capabilities as shown by the pirate experiments in the first game, and Phaaze is the biggest and original source of Phazon, so it has more Phazon power than Dark Samus 2. Ergo, should have better regen. Even Omega Ridley got regen of some kind, given he came back from exploding.

More "should" and "would" (ignoring the fact that you're once again treating Phazon as some omni-boosting object that does the same thing to everyone based solely on amount, rather than a corrupting agent that induces essentially random mutations) - meanwhile we know that the destruction of the AU destroys Phaaze. Face it, MP3 isn't the pinnacle of videogame writing- it's full of small plot holes no matter how you slice it.

Corrupting a soul = soul manipulation since it is manipulating a soul. And the original Phazon strain that corrupted the Tallon Chozo didn’t corrupt them by striking bodiless souls, because that part is exclusive to North America. The Tallon Chozo most likely got corrupted down to the soul level because it worked its way down from biological to soul level. Sure, it’s not soul destruction, but it’s fairly easy to make transitive logic that Phazon attacks can destroy souls, even if it’s not exactly always able to do so when the soul is in the body.

Right, I've explained why this is very wrong like three times now, I don't think we're going to convince each other on this.

How is it fake that a person’s essence in Metroid includes the soul and/or mind when this is seen with the Chozo; the Alimbics, the ghosts in the wrecked ship, etc? How is it fake that Phazon corrupted the Chozo’s souls when that’s in every version of the game?

"Essence" means nothing- it's a term used twice through the series, without any unifying meaning and certainly without ever referring to souls. The Alimbics never mention it (I went through Hunters this week, they literally never do), the ghosts (Chozo or not) are never even vaguely associated with the term "essence", it's just a way to say that the Phazon Dark Samus is made of can be hurt by attacking her that way.

Moreover Raven Beak was already possessed by the time he feasibly would need to fight as a soul, and Samus destroys the X parasite containing his DNA anyway. And uh, the Zebes Chozo are shown moving around as souls in the manga, Samus joining Grey Voice’s spirit is a thing.

X Parasites don't absorb souls, and surely you're not claiming their DNA is something that needs to remain unharmed for them to do something as spirits after they died (Given corpses tend to decompose and all) - besides you still have no evidence it's a genetic ability, and that wouldn't be the default assumption for something esoteric like this. You also have no proof that she (or Samus, even) inherited enough of the DNA to do it. All that this even gives you is the vague possibility that she could fight as a soul, not evidence that she can.

If she was actually too durable then the scan logs would have noted that, instead of saying DS is outright “immune” to any non-Phazon weapons.

Immune means she cannot be hurt by it, that can just as easily be read as "she's too durable" as any other more esoteric interpretation.

She has the ability to absorb powers from defeated entities like a Metroid, given she absorbed Rundas’ ice generation and gained the power to do it herself. That’s standard Metroid fare, along with absorbing energy in general due to being seen absorbing Phazon. And again, Metroids have no inherent intangibility so saying this specific combo of Metroid and Phazon allowed for it doesn’t make sense.

Metroids don't actually copy powers, they just steal life energy- and absorbing Phazon is something everyone in Corruption can seemingly do. As for the rest, true enough but keep in mind, we see various kinds of Phazon-affected Metroids and only one specific sort has phasing.

It’s still intangibility though?

Yeah, just a different kind. Like even the page says "Intangibility users should preferably have their method of intangibility specified on their page, as the workings can be countered through different means, depending on the type." Sam has a lot of kinds of NPI, including some minor kinds of elemental NPI, but she can't hit gases.

 

[JJSliderman]

I dunno, why would it go to Phaaze? We don't know anything either way, we don't even know where Dark Samus is until the last few hours of the game, you're the one making some random claim and expecting we go with it as canon when it could at best be a possibility. Here's some headcanon of my own, maybe it went to give the Pirates orders. Maybe DS' warping ability was amped by the amount of Phazon she took in in MP3, and now is enough to make the trip to and from Phaaze. Maybe they just didn't think about it.

Except when Dark Samus arrived in person on Norion to fight the hunters, it still leaves physically without teleporting. DS is never seen teleporting for pretty much the whole game, and there’s no pirate base on Norion.

The events of literally every Metroid game's ending plays out the same way, mate. Don't think there was a Leviathan in Zebes. Metroid Prime exploded, and the crater began to collapse. That's what we're told- rest is headcanon.

Yes, except there’s always an explanation that those self destructs are technological in nature (usually caused by Mother Brain). Here, there is no explanation, but retroactively you can say destroying the Phazon core of the impact crater leviathan caused that explosion (since this is a trilogy and thus a connected story, using lore from later games is fine to recontextualize events).

More "should" and "would" (ignoring the fact that you're once again treating Phazon as some omni-boosting object that does the same thing to everyone based solely on amount, rather than a corrupting agent that induces essentially random mutations) - meanwhile we know that the destruction of the AU destroys Phaaze. Face it, MP3 isn't the pinnacle of videogame writing- it's full of small plot holes no matter how you slice it.

Except regeneration is a thing that even fodder space pirates got, and Phazon is universally used to heal wounds of those who absorb it, like what Samus and the hunters did in Prime 3, or Dark Samus healing herself after her fights by absorbing Phazon. And with the Aurora unit Samus likely negated the regeneration or just destroyed the Aurora Unit (and thus the planet connected to it) down to a level where it couldn’t regenerate.

Right, I've explained why this is very wrong like three times now, I don't think we're going to convince each other on this.

"Essence" means nothing- it's a term used twice through the series, without any unifying meaning and certainly without ever referring to souls. The Alimbics never mention it (I went through Hunters this week, they literally never do), the ghosts (Chozo or not) are never even vaguely associated with the term "essence", it's just a way to say that the Phazon Dark Samus is made of can be hurt by attacking her that way.

Essence: “a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.”

Chozo ghosts would not be Chozo ghosts without their soul, Samus would not be Samus without the soul of Samus (which we clearly see), why would Dark Samus be different in that regard? As a sentient being, Dark Samus very clearly has a soul. And since the soul is acknowledged in the series as a legitimate concept, it objectively makes up a target’s essence, especially when the soul has been affected and targeted by Phazon before.

And with Alimbics, they transfer their psychic energy around, essentially their mind energy. So the idea of metaphysical elements being contained within “essence” is still prevalent.

X Parasites don't absorb souls, and surely you're not claiming their DNA is something that needs to remain unharmed for them to do something as spirits after they died (Given corpses tend to decompose and all) - besides you still have no evidence it's a genetic ability, and that wouldn't be the default assumption for something esoteric like this. You also have no proof that she (or Samus, even) inherited enough of the DNA to do it. All that this even gives you is the vague possibility that she could fight as a soul, not evidence that she can.

Clearly Samus can move around and act as just a soul in the manga, and Dark Samus has all of Samus’ genetics. So DS should be able to do it, especially when we see her clones move around as non-corporeal beings.

Immune means she cannot be hurt by it, that can just as easily be read as "she's too durable" as any other more esoteric interpretation.

I suppose…? I know other series have gotten invulnerability just off multiple descriptions saying they’re invincible though, not sure why Metroid is different (thinking of Super Sonic mainly)

Metroids don't actually copy powers, they just steal life energy- and absorbing Phazon is something everyone in Corruption can seemingly do. As for the rest, true enough but keep in mind, we see various kinds of Phazon-affected Metroids and only one specific sort has phasing.

And that type of Metroid is the one that can only be found on the planet that is a sentient mass of Phazon. The most Phazon in the universe. I wonder if there’s a correlation.

Yeah, just a different kind. Like even the page says "Intangibility users should preferably have their method of intangibility specified on their page, as the workings can be countered through different means, depending on the type." Sam has a lot of kinds of NPI, including some minor kinds of elemental NPI, but she can't hit gases.

If we already have Phazon entities in the series with a consistent, specific type of intangibility (ALL of the ones we see are the time space variety), why would we assume DS’s is a different kind, when she is also a Phazon entity?

 

[Chariot190]

Except when Dark Samus arrived in person on Norion to fight the hunters, it still leaves physically without teleporting. DS is never seen teleporting for pretty much the whole game, and there’s no pirate base on Norion.

Yeah but like, we're told she does, we know she does, and we're told that's how she moves between planets in the Q&A etc, just because she doesn't IT immediately doesn't mean that ain't what she's doing after, especially because we also don't see her fly through space at any point either.

And if the argument is GF can't warp, so she can't, that just means GF has dog ass warping compared to her. Hell maybe she just warps between planets between where she is and Phaaze, till she's close enough. She knows exactly where it is, why can't she warp between stuff till she's close enough? There's a million explanations that could be thought of first maan.

And with the Aurora unit Samus likely negated the regeneration or

Can she even do that?

Essence: “a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.”

I think we all know what it means dog
Note, key word, "a property", if they don't specify, we ain't gonna assume everything, and if they don't say soul, we ain't gonna assume that either.

Chozo ghosts would not be Chozo ghosts without their soul,

Also wouldn't be Chozo Ghosts without their history at a conceptual level. Can phazon conceptually delete someone now? Would not be a Chozo Ghost without burd properties too and idk man they dont look like burd.
Ya kinda cherry picking and making assumptions.
(They don't even use the word for them anyway).

Samus would not be Samus without the soul of Samus (which we clearly see),

Also wouldn't be Samus without her body, or memory, or past events that shaped her, her DNA or lack thereof at this point, etc.
Essence doesn't always mean every single facet, it can simply mean a key trait that is integral to its existence, like, idk the core of a levi seed could be described as such, but the core ain't its soul.

why would Dark Samus be different in that regard? As a sentient being, Dark Samus very clearly has a soul. And since the soul is acknowledged in the series as a legitimate concept, it objectively makes up a target’s essence, especially when the soul has been affected and targeted by Phazon before.

Because essence, doesn't need to mean that? If I said, what is the essence of Batman, and ya started yapping about souls I'd just kinda look at you funny because I probably meant his past and how he's a reactionary idea or a detective. Or for Metroid, what is the essence of an X-Body? The goopy X manipulating it would be an essense.

Which is the issue, the word essence isn't elaborated on, take Metroid Prime's core, that is specifically referred to as its essence, but it isn't a soul. So right off the bat we know Prime ain't consistent in uses and can refer to an essence as, not that tbh.

And with Alimbics, they transfer their psychic energy around, essentially their mind energy. So the idea of metaphysical elements being contained within “essence” is still prevalent.

False equivalence. That, 1, is not the soul anyway and isn't equatable with such. 2, a different case entirely.

Clearly Samus can move around and act as just a soul in the manga, and Dark Samus has all of Samus’ genetics. So DS should be able to do it, especially when we see her clones move around as non-corporeal beings.

Souls ain't GENETIC my dude. And they're non-corporal due to Phazon fuckery, idk, but it def ain't soul bullshit.

I suppose…? I know other series have gotten invulnerability just off multiple descriptions saying they’re invincible though, not sure why Metroid is different (thinking of Super Sonic mainly)

Pretty sure Super Sonic has a fucktillion statements, like 100+ explicit showings, and even shit yapping about how it ain't just dura but some weird fucky ring magic.

If we already have Phazon entities in the series with a consistent, specific type of intangibility (ALL of the ones we see are the time space variety), why would we assume DS’s is a different kind, when she is also a Phazon entity?

what about phazites tho?

 

[Armorchompy]

Except when Dark Samus arrived in person on Norion to fight the hunters, it still leaves physically without teleporting. DS is never seen teleporting for pretty much the whole game, and there’s no pirate base on Norion.

You don't know that she didn't teleport. You just know she didn't teleport in the three seconds of cutscene where we see her fly away. That is not enough to extrapolate "oh she flew all the way back home".

Here, there is no explanation

It explodes and that causes the crater to fall apart. That's pretty damn straightforward.

Except regeneration is a thing that even fodder space pirates got

No it's not. It's literally just Omega Pirates that have it.

And with the Aurora unit Samus likely negated the regeneration or just destroyed the Aurora Unit (and thus the planet connected to it) down to a level where it couldn’t regenerate.

Down to a- you're arguing Low-Godly. That's literally impossible. And also no, you can't say "uh she negated the regen" to a regen anti-feat. Why didn't she negate it all the other times she fought DS? Because she had Hypermode this time? It didn't negate Omega Ridley's regen, and you're arguing this is better, so that doesn't work. There's just no avenue.

Essence: “a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.”

Chozo ghosts would not be Chozo ghosts without their soul, Samus would not be Samus without the soul of Samus (which we clearly see), why would Dark Samus be different in that regard? As a sentient being, Dark Samus very clearly has a soul. And since the soul is acknowledged in the series as a legitimate concept, it objectively makes up a target’s essence, especially when the soul has been affected and targeted by Phazon before.

And with Alimbics, they transfer their psychic energy around, essentially their mind energy. So the idea of metaphysical elements being contained within “essence” is still prevalent.

Chariot covered the essence stuff better than I could. There's just no real evidence.

Clearly Samus can move around and act as just a soul in the manga, and Dark Samus has all of Samus’ genetics. So DS should be able to do it, especially when we see her clones move around as non-corporeal beings.

Samus can't do it freely, it's something that happens to her because of specific context. And also no, Dark Samus does not have all of Samus' DNA. She was made using the Phazon Suit's genetic information, which can mean either the Phazon's DNA, or the suit's DNA (given it's biomechanical to a degree) but she definitely does not have ALL of it.

I suppose…? I know other series have gotten invulnerability just off multiple descriptions saying they’re invincible though, not sure why Metroid is different (thinking of Super Sonic mainly)

I'm going to be real with you I just never trust anything Sonic fans say, as a principle.

And that type of Metroid is the one that can only be found on the planet that is a sentient mass of Phazon. The most Phazon in the universe. I wonder if there’s a correlation.

There isn't cause it doesn't keep any of the Fission Metroid P&A, so it's not a "more phazon = more powers" thing. And also that's not true, they're found on SkyTown first.

If we already have Phazon entities in the series with a consistent, specific type of intangibility (ALL of the ones we see are the time space variety), why would we assume DS’s is a different kind, when she is also a Phazon entity?

Because you can literally visually tell that it's a different kind man (And also not true, there's Phazon enemies in 3 that have elemental intangibility)

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah but like, we're told she does, we know she does, and we're told that's how she moves between planets in the Q&A etc, just because she doesn't IT immediately doesn't mean that ain't what she's doing after, especially because we also don't see her fly through space at any point either.

We see more of her physically flying in 3 than we see teleporting (which is none)

And if the argument is GF can't warp, so she can't, that just means GF has dog ass warping compared to her. Hell maybe she just warps between planets between where she is and Phaaze, till she's close enough. She knows exactly where it is, why can't she warp between stuff till she's close enough? There's a million explanations that could be thought of first maan.

The GF also knew where Phaaze was, finding it wasn’t the problem. The problem was they just couldn’t reach it, despite having hyperdrive technology.

Can she even do that?

That was just one option, the other is simply that it bypassed the level of regeneration that DS has (which I’ll concede is not mid godly but probably closer to low godly, smthn Samus can feasibly deal with)

I think we all know what it means dog
Note, key word, "a property", if they don't specify, we ain't gonna assume everything, and if they don't say soul, we ain't gonna assume that either.

The soul is implied, its a metaphysical aspect of you that is always there and a literal aspect in this series.

Also wouldn't be Chozo Ghosts without their history at a conceptual level. Can phazon conceptually delete someone now? Would not be a Chozo Ghost without burd properties too and idk man they dont look like burd.
Ya kinda cherry picking and making assumptions.
(They don't even use the word for them anyway).

They’re ghosts. Ghosts are souls. And no, I’m only going off what the series has demonstrated is part of a being at any one time, which in this case is the mind and soul and not farther.

Because essence, doesn't need to mean that? If I said, what is the essence of Batman, and ya started yapping about souls I'd just kinda look at you funny because I probably meant his past and how he's a reactionary idea or a detective. Or for Metroid, what is the essence of an X-Body? The goopy X manipulating it would be an essense.

Saying the essence doesn’t include the soul when the main character has the ability to astral project and thus has her soul as part of her essence is kinda goofy.

Which is the issue, the word essence isn't elaborated on, take Metroid Prime's core, that is specifically referred to as its essence, but it isn't a soul. So right off the bat we know Prime ain't consistent in uses and can refer to an essence as, not that tbh.

Yes, Metroid Prime’s core contains a soul, which is part of its essence. Just because it’s not reduced to “only” a soul, doesn’t mean the soul is not part of its essence.

False equivalence. That, 1, is not the soul anyway and isn't equatable with such. 2, a different case entirely.

“Psychic: related to the soul or mind”
Which, Phazon can also affect the mind and the soul, so both would be included in essence regardless.

Souls ain't GENETIC my dude. And they're non-corporal due to Phazon fuckery, idk, but it def ain't soul bullshit.

Well, “something” the Chozo have allow them to fight as souls. So it’s either the Chozo have some innate element that let them fight as souls, in which case DS would also have it, or it was Phazon…which Dark Samus also has.

Pretty sure Super Sonic has a fucktillion statements, like 100+ explicit showings, and even shit yapping about how it ain't just dura but some weird fucky ring magic.

And Dark Samus also has a lot of statements and has showings where it has never been hurt by anything except Phazon once it reaches a certain threshold.

what about phazites tho?

I assume you mean Phaz-Ing, in which case they don’t phase in the sense of turning intangible, they just turn into liquid. It’s not really the same.

You don't know that she didn't teleport. You just know she didn't teleport in the three seconds of cutscene where we see her fly away. That is not enough to extrapolate "oh she flew all the way back home".

If we saw like one scene of her teleporting I’d understand, but it never happens. Why would she bother flying physically in all the scenes we see of her if she just teleports.

It explodes and that causes the crater to fall apart. That's pretty damn straightforward.

The crater which is also the resting place of the leviathan seed, the thing that explodes when the Phazon core goes boom.

No it's not. It's literally just Omega Pirates that have it.

It’s also Elite Pirates, but point is it can regenerate a lot of the beings who have learned to live with it.

Down to a- you're arguing Low-Godly. That's literally impossible. And also no, you can't say "uh she negated the regen" to a regen anti-feat. Why didn't she negate it all the other times she fought DS? Because she had Hypermode this time? It didn't negate Omega Ridley's regen, and you're arguing this is better, so that doesn't work. There's just no avenue.

It’s not impossible if Samus just destroys the soul with her attacks (which would bypass low godly).

Samus can't do it freely, it's something that happens to her because of specific context. And also no, Dark Samus does not have all of Samus' DNA. She was made using the Phazon Suit's genetic information, which can mean either the Phazon's DNA, or the suit's DNA (given it's biomechanical to a degree) but she definitely does not have ALL of it.

She has enough that it looks like Samus, and has Samus’s moves, and even has mental abilities that are akin to Samus (like long distance mental communication), and DS can move about in an incorporeal form like Samus. It’s close enough.

There isn't cause it doesn't keep any of the Fission Metroid P&A, so it's not a "more phazon = more powers" thing. And also that's not true, they're found on SkyTown first.

That was my mistake, but also doesn’t really debunk how these Phazon Metroids likely had far more exposure to Phazon than others, given their drastically different appearance and how it shares the phasing ability with other heavily Phazon corrupted beings.

Because you can literally visually tell that it's a different kind mf

That’s just an aesthetic thing, frankly it would be very inconsistent for all Phazon based intangibility to be one way and then just different for Dark Samus.

 

[Chariot190]

We see more of her physically flying in 3 than we see teleporting (which is none)

Through space?
We know she teleports, we're told that's what she does to get between planets and even just to enter places

Are you actually arguing because we see her hover around and then zip off for 3 seconds, that the fact we're told she teleports between planets or even to the Prate Base, aka, a Prime 3 exclusive thing, that she's actually flying ten million lightyears?

The GF also knew where Phaaze was, finding it wasn’t the problem. The problem was they just couldn’t reach it, despite having hyperdrive technology.

That just means they suck? What's that have to do with DS? Just means she's better.

That was just one option,

Wdym option? It either is, or isn't.

the other is simply that it bypassed the level of regeneration that DS has (which I’ll concede is not mid godly but probably closer to low godly, smthn Samus can feasibly deal with)

No? Destroying something down to- means Samus mustve ******* erased that thing not even a particle, a atom, a quark. The physical components that comprise its existence has ceased to exist.
And you want to say "yeah man samus did that low diff lol", without confirmation?

The soul is implied, its a metaphysical aspect of you that is always there and a literal aspect in this series.

No it isn't? They use essence for telepathy, and essence for a giant glowing blue ayy lmao core.
Tf ya mean it's implied?

They’re ghosts. Ghosts are souls.

And? Essence is also a whole bunch of shit. If you are going to extrapolate a word, that isn't even SAID in reference to them, to jack up another dude, least you could do is not cherry pick.

And no, I’m only going off what the series has demonstrated is part of a being at any one time, which in this case is the mind and soul and not farther.

Really, because I'm 99% sure they've yapped about how Samus' past is an integral part of her being and made her who she was.

And you've missed the point, prove essence even refers to that in context? Ignoring how they dont say essence in regards to DS, you have to PROVE that's what it entails in a specific context given essence is just a word that can refer to an integral facet of something.

You're literally 0-2 in it being a soul.

Saying the essence doesn’t include the soul when the main character has the ability to astral project and thus has her soul as part of her essence is kinda goofy.

No it's called common sense? Lad, do you even know what essence means? You quoted it yourself.

Essence doesn't mean every single trait. facet and component that makes up something. Which is what you're arguing, because they HAVE something, it's a part of their essence, which not only isn't what the word means, isn't what they say, but it's SPECIFICALLY not even the case in the two times it's said.

Samus' body is her essence, damn guess that wasn't her essence, her past too, her suit even given she says it's a part of her, etc.

Yes, Metroid Prime’s core contains a soul, which is part of its essence. Just because it’s not reduced to “only” a soul, doesn’t mean the soul is not part of its essence.

Dude, this isn't how this works. That isn't even how the word works.
Essence, in context, is the core, because it's a key integral facet to it. It doesn't mean its soul, its mind, it's meta conceptual history, whatever.

Essence is the core, **** it up to win. Nothing more or less.

In MUCH the same way a Levi's core is "its essence", because it's a key part of it that if destroyed breaks the thing, you wouldn't go "oh damn it destroys the soul too lol".

Or hell, the essence of Metroid, as a game, would be the lonesome alien atmosphere and interconnected world. Would that mean I'm talking about the bytes that make it up or the controls? No, because essence isn't a "literally everything" term. It can mean "A PROPERTY (singular) or PROPERTIES (undefined amount, can be just two, three, depending on what it's talking about as it's a context-sensitive word).

You, are assuming it includes shit it never even implied, in a case where it says what it's talking about to extrapolate to a scene it isn't even said.

“Psychic: related to the soul or mind”
Which, Phazon can also affect the mind and the soul, so both would be included in essence regardless.

Keyword. "Or".
No, it wouldn't? Phazon can do a lot of shit, not only is it not universal, applied with every attack, etc but that ISN'T what it means to begin with.

Well, “something” the Chozo have allow them to fight as souls. So it’s either the Chozo have some innate element that let them fight as souls, in which case DS would also have it, or it was Phazon…which Dark Samus also has.

Wut
The hell does any of this effect the fact souls ain't genetic, so DS having any genetic code copy wouldn't translate to that?

And the Chozo, well first off, it's literally only the Tallon Chozo, Chozo being killed off don't roll back up and began throwing hands as we see elsewhere.

And Dark Samus also has a lot of statements and has showings where it has never been hurt by anything except Phazon once it reaches a certain threshold.

You are grossly downplaying the gap, and like 30+ years of fuckhog lore.
And case and point, "once it reaches a certain threshold".

If we saw like one scene of her teleporting I’d understand, but it never happens.

We are literally told she did it all the time offscreen on the Pirate Homeworld. Did that never happen because we don't see it?

Why would she bother flying physically in all the scenes we see of her if she just teleports.

Idk why walk at all if she can just teleport? Why move?
Dude we know she does, we're told she does, we know she does it between planets, we know she did it even onplanet just because.

We have literally no reason to assume she's flying 1000000 lightyears, when we're told she teleports between planets that aren't half as far (if she can just fly there quickly, she could fly between more proximate planets in like no time at all, yet, she can't).

I assume you mean Phaz-Ing, in which case they don’t phase in the sense of turning intangible, they just turn into liquid. It’s not really the same.

Samus can hurt goopy and water-like dudes with stuff besides Phazon. Can't here. Evidently more complex. And I mean the Prime 3 enemy.

 

[JJSliderman]

Through space?
We know she teleports, we're told that's what she does to get between planets and even just to enter places

Are you actually arguing because we see her hover around and then zip off for 3 seconds, that the fact we're told she teleports between planets or even to the Prate Base, aka, a Prime 3 exclusive thing, that she's actually flying ten million lightyears?

I could not find where she teleports to the pirate base on her own, but I’ll take your word for it.

That just means they suck? What's that have to do with DS? Just means she's better.

We never actually get to see how far she can teleport to say she can go 343 light years in one go, so it’s impossible to say her teleporting could get her that far, or that her shadow clones can teleport like that.

Wdym option? It either is, or isn't.

Considering the ending is kind of vague there needs to be options.

No? Destroying something down to- means Samus mustve ******* erased that thing not even a particle, a atom, a quark. The physical components that comprise its existence has ceased to exist.
And you want to say "yeah man samus did that low diff lol", without confirmation?

I never said low-diff, feasible means “it can be done”, not done easily. And like, yes, Samus is using a far superior Phazon attack method than she did in all her previous attempts, when Phazon already can affect and destroy souls, I think it’s feasible she could reduce DS to the point where her soul no longer exists and can’t regenerate, bypassing the regen limit of Phazon and the ability of DS to keep fighting.

Really, because I'm 99% sure they've yapped about how Samus' past is an integral part of her being and made her who she was.

And you've missed the point, prove essence even refers to that in context? Ignoring how they dont say essence in regards to DS, you have to PROVE that's what it entails in a specific context given essence is just a word that can refer to an integral facet of something.

You're literally 0-2 in it being a soul.

Ignoring how 2 of the 3 big alien factions in Metroid, the Alimbics and Chozo, treat essence as including either the soul or incorporeal mind energy, the fact Phazon is involved should inherently mean the mind and soul is involved as well, because Phazon has already demonstrated it affects the mind and soul. But I guess it just never does that again because…reasons.

Dude, this isn't how this works. That isn't even how the word works.
Essence, in context, is the core, because it's a key integral facet to it. It doesn't mean its soul, its mind, it's meta conceptual history, whatever.

Essence is the core, **** it up to win. Nothing more or less.

In MUCH the same way a Levi's core is "its essence", because it's a key part of it that if destroyed breaks the thing, you wouldn't go "oh damn it destroys the soul too lol".

Or hell, the essence of Metroid, as a game, would be the lonesome alien atmosphere and interconnected world. Would that mean I'm talking about the bytes that make it up or the controls? No, because essence isn't a "literally everything" term. It can mean "A PROPERTY (singular) or PROPERTIES (undefined amount, can be just two, three, depending on what it's talking about as it's a context-sensitive word).

You, are assuming it includes shit it never even implied, in a case where it says what it's talking about to extrapolate to a scene it isn't even said.

Mate, a person’s essence is everything about them that is definitely existing at any one time. Dark Samus always has a soul, and a mind, and biology at any one time. Her essence will always include those. Same with Metroid Prime.

Keyword. "Or".
No, it wouldn't? Phazon can do a lot of shit, not only is it not universal, applied with every attack, etc but that ISN'T what it means to begin with.

Phazon can absolutely affect the mind and it’s crazy to say it doesn’t, it can also corrupt the soul and we know this via the space pirates data in 3 and the lore in 1. Mind and soul should just be implied in regards to Phazon, given context.

Wut
The hell does any of this effect the fact souls ain't genetic, so DS having any genetic code copy wouldn't translate to that?

If souls aren’t genetic and are just a thing everyone has, then obviously Dark Samus has a soul. We see multiple entities in the series that fight when reduced to just their soul, and the Chozo Ghosts (who DS matches in terms of physiology and Phazon count) are one of them. We aren’t really led to believe that the reason Chozo can continue to fight as souls is due to something beyond their biology, and Chozo lore entries imply the Phazon was responsible for the Chozo Ghosts’ existence (supposedly trapping them in dimensional flux), so DS should be able to replicate that.

And the Chozo, well first off, it's literally only the Tallon Chozo, Chozo being killed off don't roll back up and began throwing hands as we see elsewhere.

Except Grey Voice ig.

You are grossly downplaying the gap, and like 30+ years of fuckhog lore.
And case in point, "once it reaches a certain threshold".

By certain threshold I mean, once DS has reached its final evolution stages. Tbh not sure what the invulnerability requirements are anyway, I looked at the page and one of the examples of invulnerability is “necessitating a dura neg weapon”.

Which, Dark Samus should be immune to dura neg weapons via upscaling the leviathan core.

We are literally told she did it all the time offscreen on the Pirate Homeworld. Did that never happen because we don't see it?

I’m not sure where, but she does do that on Aether. So I guess I see your point.

Idk why walk at all if she can just teleport? Why move?
Dude we know she does, we're told she does, we know she does it between planets, we know she did it even onplanet just because.

We don’t “know” she does it all the time, we know she did it one time.

We have literally no reason to assume she's flying 1000000 lightyears, when we're told she teleports between planets that aren't half as far (if she can just fly there quickly, she could fly between more proximate planets in like no time at all, yet, she can't).

She teleported between planets 1 time, in a weakened state. It’s hardly exhaustive proof. It’s not even that far, it’s just 343 LYs.

Samus can hurt goopy and water-like dudes with stuff besides Phazon. Can't hear. Evidently more complex. And I mean the Prime 3 enemy.

Okay, so DS still has intangibility, even if it’s not spatial, because of her showing on Elysia. I’d still maintain DS can do spatial intangibility due to meeting the same requirements as the Chozo Ghosts.

 

[SomebodyData]

This is a thread addressing Dark Samus' profile and its various inaccuracies. It's a bit longer than I would like it to be, but I didn't want to split it, given I've been making a lot of Metroid threads already. Please try to remain civil in discussing it.

Feats (Leviathan, Phaaze and Travel Speed) & Regeneration​

Don't disagree with any of this tbh, just a few minor details below.

Other P&A​

1. Metroid Prime:
   1. REMOVALS
      1. Regeneration (Low-High). The artbook isn't saying she can only regenerate with the Phazon suit, just that she used it to become Dark Samus. Plus the Phazon Suit hasn't shown regeneration in game.
      2. Acid Manipulation: It is a bit rare, but whenever Metroid Prime changes her elemental form, she sometimes fires acid at you.
   2. ADDITIONS
      1. Thread Manipulation: Unfortunately I'm pretty sure its just her version of the grapple beam.

 

[JJSliderman]

Tl;Dr Dark Samus should keep some form of intangibility (to the extent Samus cannot tag DS despite already defeating and tagging entities that phased out of timespace), should keep low-godly, and should keep leviathan durability scaling. Invulnerability I guess I’m 50/50, rest of the OP changes I’m fine with.

 

[SomebodyData]

Tl;Dr Dark Samus should keep some form of intangibility (to the extent Samus cannot tag DS despite already defeating and tagging entities that phased out of timespace), should keep low-godly, and should keep leviathan durability scaling. Invulnerability I guess I’m 50/50, rest of the OP changes I’m fine with.

Could you summarize your points in a response to this. I can add scans if you'd like some help.

 

[JJSliderman]

Sure

Tl;Dr Dark Samus should keep some form of intangibility (to the extent Samus cannot tag DS despite already defeating and tagging entities that phased out of timespace), should keep low-godly, and should keep leviathan durability scaling. Invulnerability I guess I’m 50/50, rest of the OP changes I’m fine with.

Samus is completely unable to hit Dark Samus’s multilocation clone with her power beam. This same power beam was capable of hitting Chozo ghosts when they were phased out of local time space, and Dark Samus (as a very high tier Phazon user) should be capable of a level of intangibility comparable to dark pirate commandos, Chozo ghosts, and Phazon Metroids, all of which can turn intangible via phasing out of spacetime (albeit maybe DS’s isn’t exactly the same)

In terms of low-godly, I agree DS should not get it for the ending of Prime 2. But, I do think in a roundabout way, Dark Samus should get it. Higher tier Phazon entities are shown being able to generate Phazon around themselves, and Dark Samus is a being who is almost entirely composed of Phazon (to the point she becomes a pure unstable Phazon energy form). So, I’d say it’s fair that DS can switch between a corporeal form and an energy form, as she converts back into a non-energy life form at the end of the fight. Moreover, due to absorbing Samus’s genetic material (Dark Samus 1 scan), which contains Chozo elements, and Dark Samus being a being infused with Phazon, she shares many similarities with the Chozo ghosts, which are capable of performing combat actions while reduced to a soul form. As such, given that Dark Samus can fight while in an incorporeal state and then form corporeal phazon around her, she has an unconventional low godly regen.

For leviathan durability, Hypermode Samus can destroy leviathan cores, which normally are capable of containing a level of energy that destroys leviathan shells if released. This is only shown for babies in Prime 3, but in Prime 1 a similar effect occurs upon destroying Metroid Prime (the creature), in a series of chambers that includes a Phazon Core and vast patches of Phazon, indicating the Impact Crater is likely the Tallon Leviathan Seed, and Metroid Prime a sentient leviathan core.

 

[SomebodyData]

Sure

Samus is completely unable to hit Dark Samus’s multilocation clone with her power beam. This same power beam was capable of hitting Chozo ghosts when they were phased out of local time space, and Dark Samus (as a very high tier Phazon user) should be capable of a level of intangibility comparable to dark pirate commandos, Chozo ghosts, and Phazon Metroids, all of which can turn intangible via phasing out of spacetime (albeit maybe DS’s isn’t exactly the same)

In terms of low-godly, I agree DS should not get it for the ending of Prime 2. But, I do think in a roundabout way, Dark Samus should get it. Higher tier Phazon entities are shown being able to generate Phazon around themselves, and Dark Samus is a being who is almost entirely composed of Phazon (to the point she becomes a pure unstable Phazon energy form). So, I’d say it’s fair that DS can switch between a corporeal form and an energy form, as she converts back into a non-energy life form at the end of the fight. Moreover, due to absorbing Samus’s genetic material (Dark Samus 1 scan), which contains Chozo elements, and Dark Samus being a being infused with Phazon, she shares many similarities with the Chozo ghosts, which are capable of performing combat actions while reduced to a soul form. As such, given that Dark Samus can fight while in an incorporeal state and then form corporeal phazon around her, she has an unconventional low godly regen.

For leviathan durability, Hypermode Samus can destroy leviathan cores, which normally are capable of containing a level of energy that destroys leviathan shells if released. This is only shown for babies in Prime 3, but in Prime 1 a similar effect occurs upon destroying Metroid Prime (the creature), in a series of chambers that includes a Phazon Core and vast patches of Phazon, indicating the Impact Crater is likely the Tallon Leviathan Seed, and Metroid Prime a sentient leviathan core.

Yeah I can agree with intangibility here.

I'm not really sold on the regen or Leviathan durability scaling, although the latter doesn't really matter for Samus, it mostly just impacts the Tallon Metroids (Who would still just scale from Samus tbh).

 

[JJSliderman]

I’d like to keep a possibly low godly I guess.

 

[Chariot190]

I could not find where she teleports to the pirate base on her own, but I’ll take your word for it.

The game says she does? Or maybe it's the website? Idk, either way DS is stated to warp in a lot, we don't see it, but it's said to happen.

We never actually get to see how far she can teleport to say she can go 343 light years in one go, so it’s impossible to say her teleporting could get her that far, or that her shadow clones can teleport like that.

Dude. We also know she can't fly even less, hence the warping? Why warp if it'd take like 7 seconds to fly?

And no, the very fact she gets to Phaaze, Pirate Homeworld, and everything inbetween, is the proof.
And we already know she can warp huge ass distances, because that's explicitly how she went from Tallon to Aether, as stated in the Q&A.

Are you ACTUALLY arguing that the character who specifically warps between planets instead of flying, has shown warping across the galaxy, is actually flying said distance, when nothing says as much? Yet we have all the evidence to say she can TP?

Considering the ending is kind of vague there needs to be options.

No? Don't make shit up. If we don't know, we don't know, let's not pretend we do.

I never said low-diff, feasible means “it can be done”, not done easily.

Don't matter, she can't without proof.

And like, yes, Samus is using a far superior Phazon attack method than she did in all her previous attempts,

So? Phazon is Phazon. You've argued numerous times now, not to mention, so? Having more Phazon doesnt mean you can assume total physical destruction to where not even a molecule the size of a Planck length exists.

when Phazon already can affect and destroy souls

No it can't. Show me ONE TIME it DESTROYED a soul.

, I think it’s feasible she could reduce DS to the point where her soul no longer exists and can’t regenerate, bypassing the regen limit of Phazon and the ability of DS to keep fighting.

"I think", no offense, but what you THINK and what is actually the case are two very different things.
This is conjecture, the game does not state this (it states the opposite even), the game does not say this happened, the game never even implies it.

You're taking an assumption, of an assumption, of an assumption,applying it to a diff character, assuming some more, and slapping it on a diff dude.

The regen limit of DS and Phazon was flat-out stated to be "anything SHORT of total atomic", this sentence tells us that that WOULD be enough.

Ignoring how 2 of the 3 big alien factions in Metroid, the Alimbics and Chozo, treat essence as including either the soul or incorporeal mind energy,

Yeah see, they don't.
The word essence is only ever stated TWICE in the verse.

Neither of which were the Chozo.

And NONE OF WHICH included the soul.

the fact Phazon is involved should inherently mean the mind and soul is involved as well,

No? 99% of Phazon's bullshit is just biomanip and radiation. Hell the only time it actually messed with a soul, was en masse, over time, and after messing up a whole ass planet.

And the mind? Is biological in every facet Phazon is involved with, legit brain damage.

because Phazon has already demonstrated it affects the mind and soul. But I guess it just never does that again because…reasons.

You're right, it never does it again because a funny pew pew stray beam shot isn't the same context.

Mate, a person’s essence is everything about them that is definitely existing at any one time. Dark Samus always has a soul, and a mind, and biology at any one time. Her essence will always include those. Same with Metroid Prime.

Proving my point. The game, does not specify this. This is your take on the word, not what the word actually means, nor what the game explains it means.

I like how you made mention of biology, as if that isn't all that actually matters. You know the problem with your argument? It's the fact you're assuming DS was annihilated beyond her body to begin with, and thus all she had was a soul, so the essence must be the soul.
Hate to break it to you, but you haven't even proven that, let alone what essence entails.

Don't wanna sound mean but I don't care what you think it could mean. I want actual proof.

If souls aren’t genetic and are just a thing everyone has, then obviously Dark Samus has a soul.

Yeah, and?

We see multiple entities in the series that fight when reduced to just their soul,

Yeah all like 3. Of the 3000 that don't.

and the Chozo Ghosts (who DS matches in terms of physiology and Phazon count) are one of them.

No? They don't have a thing to do with each other?

We aren’t really led to believe that the reason Chozo can continue to fight as souls is due to something beyond their biology,

Dude it's like 99% because they're space wizards or some shit
It def isn't just a thing anyone can do, or even any chozo

and Chozo lore entries imply the Phazon was responsible for the Chozo Ghosts’ existence (supposedly trapping them in dimensional flux),

Yes, a leviathan polluting the planet in a cataclysmic event over time was capable of doing so

so DS should be able to replicate that.

Based on what?

Except Grey Voice ig.

He's also a space wizard burd who's like 400 man

By certain threshold I mean, once DS has reached its final evolution stages. Tbh not sure what the invulnerability requirements are anyway, I looked at the page and one of the examples of invulnerability is “necessitating a dura neg weapon”.

The requirements ain't lax. Every Metroid "Dura neg" weapon, is more like "dura mitigation", ice, heat, phasing, etc. They make dura matter way less, but not 100%. When the page says that, it means shit like Killer Queen from JoJo, or a sword that just straight up kills you on contact. Stuff where durability actually isn't a factor.

Which, Dark Samus should be immune to dura neg weapons via upscaling the leviathan core.

Why exactly?

I’m not sure where, but she does do that on Aether. So I guess I see your point.

Torvus I think?

We don’t “know” she does it all the time, we know she did it one time.

I didn't say all the time, but she does it enough to where, any long distance movement we know she did, has been stated to be via warp. And even some short, like warping into bases.

She teleported between planets 1 time, in a weakened state. It’s hardly exhaustive proof.

Weakened? They never state that. By the time she warped to Aether, her body was done being made and healed.

And it's quite literally infinitely more proof than you've given, which is none.

It’s not even that far, it’s just 343 LYs.

That's FAR dog, stupid far. Literally 343 YEARS at LIGHTSPEED far.

Okay, so DS still has intangibility, even if it’s not spatial, because of her showing on Elysia. I’d still maintain DS can do spatial intangibility due to meeting the same requirements as the Chozo Ghosts.

She should have intangibility. Nobody is saying she doesn't (it'd aint always on tho) just not that type? Btw we know it's diff because power beam can hit chozo ghosts, yet can't hit DS.
Whatever the hell she's doing, is demonstrably working on different mechanics given the pew pew that should work, ain't working.

In terms of low-godly, I agree DS should not get it for the ending of Prime 2. But, I do think in a roundabout way, Dark Samus should get it. Higher tier Phazon entities are shown being able to generate Phazon around themselves, and Dark Samus is a being who is almost entirely composed of Phazon (to the point she becomes a pure unstable Phazon energy form). So, I’d say it’s fair that DS can switch between a corporeal form and an energy form, as she converts back into a non-energy life form at the end of the fight.

Literally NONE of that is evidence for low-godly. Her energy form would just become her new body.

Moreover, due to absorbing Samus’s genetic material (Dark Samus 1 scan), which contains Chozo elements, and Dark Samus being a being infused with Phazon, she shares many similarities with the Chozo ghosts, which are capable of performing combat actions while reduced to a soul form.

This is actual reaching and mixmatching like a dozen things. At BEST this would give DS Astral Projection.

As such, given that Dark Samus can fight while in an incorporeal state and then form corporeal phazon around her, she has an unconventional low godly regen.

No she doesn't. Being able to fight in a non-corporal form, isn't reforming your body from nothing but a soul. She can shift her body into a noncorporeal state because phazon. That state, isn't her soul, it's just her body in a different state.
And Chozo Ghosts, are a legitimate outlier among the verse bar whatever the **** is in the wrecked ship. Samus' while having Chozo DNA, evidently isn't ne, and just has traits of them, none of which confirmed to be soul fuckery the fact samus cant throw hands after death should be a pretty huge red flag and we don't even know WHY Chozo can do that, you're assuming it's some sort of biological trait. As if we don't have two games filled with burd genocide but no burd ghosts running around.
Despite all that, you're assuming that enables DS can come back from a soul, when we haven't even got proof she's been destroyed beyond her body? And the worst part, she can regen because of phazon. Yet if her body is totally destroyed, the very substance that enables all this fuckery, would be destroyed with it as she's made of it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Regeneration (Low-High). The artbook isn't saying she can only regenerate with the Phazon suit, just that she used it to become Dark Samus. Plus the Phazon Suit hasn't shown regeneration in game

I don't mind also listing it as regen but it'd have to be in the same breath as the rest because we don't really know the mechanics of it still, it does say that she began to regen (If DS is the same creature as MP and not some kind of offspring, which is unclear) only after absorbing the suit, maybe it needed it as fuel or something. Technically Samus' power suit does regen

Acid Manipulation: It is a bit rare, but whenever Metroid Prime changes her elemental form, she sometimes fires acid at you.

Huh, my bad then. Wiki didn't list it and the two video fights I looked at never had her do that.

Thread Manipulation: Unfortunately I'm pretty sure its just her version of the grapple beam.

It is, but I think it's fine to list the Grapple Beam as Thread Manip- ultimately it's creating a thread, if one made of energy.

Samus is completely unable to hit Dark Samus’s multilocation clone with her power beam. This same power beam was capable of hitting Chozo ghosts when they were phased out of local time space, and Dark Samus (as a very high tier Phazon user) should be capable of a level of intangibility comparable to dark pirate commandos, Chozo ghosts, and Phazon Metroids, all of which can turn intangible via phasing out of spacetime (albeit maybe DS’s isn’t exactly the same)

It's worth noting, Dark Pirate Commandos (And Hunter Ing in general, which is where the ability comes from) are not Phazon beings, they're Ing- beings associated with Phazon but not Phazon, with their own abilities (a fun bit of trivia is that Dark Samus actually takes more damage from the Dark Beam than the Light Beam unlike the Ing, because she's a Light World creature). Ghosts also naturally have the ability of their own, which leaves only Phazon Metroids.

Samus also shouldn't really scale to Phazon Metroids and Hunter Ing in terms of NPI- she can hit them, obviously, but only when they aren't phasing. When they are they're completely immune to her attacks. I planned to address this later, I don't wanna touch Samus' P&A (She definitely keeps NPI, just off different things) until I'm done researching though.

 

[JJSliderman]

The game says she does? Or maybe it's the website? Idk, either way DS is stated to warp in a lot, we don't see it, but it's said to happen.

Dude. We also know she can't fly even less, hence the warping? Why warp if it'd take like 7 seconds to fly?

And no, the very fact she gets to Phaaze, Pirate Homeworld, and everything inbetween, is the proof.
And we already know she can warp huge ass distances, because that's explicitly how she went from Tallon to Aether, as stated in the Q&A.

Are you ACTUALLY arguing that the character who specifically warps between planets instead of flying, has shown warping across the galaxy, is actually flying said distance, when nothing says as much? Yet we have all the evidence to say she can TP?

I agree she warps.

No? Don't make shit up. If we don't know, we don't know, let's not pretend we do.

We can make deductive guesses though?

So? Phazon is Phazon. You've argued numerous times now, not to mention, so? Having more Phazon doesnt mean you can assume total physical destruction to where not even a molecule the size of a Planck length exists.

Yeah I can, if you are much stronger than your opponent it’s perfectly possible to say you can blow away every atom of your opponent (in fact Samus did that in the ending seemingly, how else would Dark Samus be killed?)

No it can't. Show me ONE TIME it DESTROYED a soul.

It’s basic logic, Phazon can be used as a destructive attack that has shown more power than Samus’s basic power beam, which can destroy souls, and Phazon has already shown it can affect souls, so Phazon absolutely must be capable of destroying souls. Even generic space pirates believed they could destroy ghosts, according to the Chozo Ghosts pirate data. Phazon is also shown being capable of destroying the mind

"I think", no offense, but what you THINK and what is actually the case are two very different things.
This is conjecture, the game does not state this (it states the opposite even), the game does not say this happened, the game never even implies it.

You're taking an assumption, of an assumption, of an assumption,applying it to a diff character, assuming some more, and slapping it on a diff dude.

The regen limit of DS and Phazon was flat-out stated to be "anything SHORT of total atomic", this sentence tells us that that WOULD be enough.

Yes, that was stated in Prime 2, when she had far inferior regen and power compared to the end of that game, let alone the 3rd game. It is not a cap on her capabilities across the whole trilogy.

Yeah see, they don't.
The word essence is only ever stated TWICE in the verse.

Neither of which were the Chozo.

And NONE OF WHICH included the soul.

The soul is AUTOMATICALLY part of the essence by default because
A. we know the soul exists and every entity has one, and
B. Phazon can already affect the soul without guidance from any one being, so it should be assumed Phazon can do it with direction as well.

No? 99% of Phazon's bullshit is just biomanip and radiation. Hell the only time it actually messed with a soul, was en masse, over time, and after messing up a whole ass planet.

And the mind? Is biological in every facet Phazon is involved with, legit brain damage.

Not really, Chozo ghosts don’t have a living biological brain to interfere with, so their mind manip is more of a spiritual mind as well. And it doesn’t matter how overtime their soul manip was, still happened, and was implied to be very quick once the Chozo actually got corrupted.

You're right, it never does it again because a funny pew pew stray beam shot isn't the same context.

Well funny pew pew beam did allow Dark Samus to absorb every aspect of the hunters she corrupted and corrupt Samus on a level that implies no aspect of the original Samus exists (which could include her spirit, seeing as that would tie into Metroid Prime 1)

Proving my point. The game, does not specify this. This is your take on the word, not what the word actually means, nor what the game explains it means.

I like how you made mention of biology, as if that isn't all that actually matters. You know the problem with your argument? It's the fact you're assuming DS was annihilated beyond her body to begin with, and thus all she had was a soul, so the essence must be the soul.
Hate to break it to you, but you haven't even proven that, let alone what essence entails.

Don't wanna sound mean but I don't care what you think it could mean. I want actual proof.

The proof is that Dark Samus can be reduced to an incorporeal energy life form, and then construct an entire body around her (according to the Prime 2 boss fight), and her soul should be able to perform actions on its own without a body scaling off of Samus (due to having her mental data and genetics), and Dark Samus can create Phazon and use it as armor (scaling off Omega Ridley)

Yeah all like 3. Of the 3000 that don't.

Every single Chozo ghost of which there are dozens, the entire Alimbic race being able to continuously battle against Gorea’s power while trapped in the seal sphere, all the ghosts on the wrecked ship, Samus, etc. Dark Samus should be able to as well, due to being a genetic and mental copy of Samus.

No? They don't have a thing to do with each other?

Both have Chozo DNA and both are infused with Phazon.

Dude it's like 99% because they're space wizards or some shit
It def isn't just a thing anyone can do, or even any chozo

Well, obviously Samus can. And thus Dark Samus.

Yes, a leviathan polluting the planet jn a cataclysmic event over time was capable of doing so

That’s still effects of Phazon, Phazon coming from a Leviathan isn’t special.

Based on what?

The fact her body is 80% Phazon

He's also a space wizard burd who's like 400 man

And Dark Samus is a 50+ year old space bird parasite thing who copied someone that can astral project.

The requirements ain't lax. Every Metroid "Dura neg" weapon, is more like "dura mitigation", ice, heat, phasing, etc. They make dura matter way less, but not 100%. When the page says that, it means shit like Killer Queen from JoJo, or a sword that just straight up kills you on contact. Stuff where durability actually isn't a factor.

Nova beam is literally dura neg in that it, ignores durability?

Why exactly?

Cuz we have multiple points where it’s stated DS is invulnerable to all weapons that aren’t Phazon (namely the Prime 2 final boss), which lines up with Leviathan cores.

Torvus I think?

That’s Prime 2, not 3, but I accept that she teleported into the Agon pirate base a lot.

She should have intangibility. Nobody is saying she doesn't (it'd aint always on tho) just not that type? Btw we know it's diff because power beam can hit chozo ghosts, yet can't hit DS.
Whatever the hell she's doing, is demonstrably working on different mechanics given the pew pew that should work, ain't working.

Layered…

Literally NONE of that is evidence for low-godly. Her energy form would just become her new body.

My arg would be Dark Samus being capable of regrowing a Phazon body around her soul. I think it works as “possibly low godly”, since DS has all the components to achieve low godly but has just never demonstrated them.

If you want to argue DS wouldn’t be able to generate Phazon as a soul form, then she could just as easily travel to a Phazon source and immerse her soul in that to regrow her body, like what happened in the third game.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah I can, if you are much stronger than your opponent it’s perfectly possible to say you can blow away every atom of your opponent (in fact Samus did that in the ending seemingly, how else would Dark Samus be killed?)

But Samus isn't that much stronger. She's inferior though comparable in the MP2 final boss battle, and just comparable in MP3 (With the AU being presumably stronger, given we know it amps DS). It's not a stomp-worthy gap either way.

It’s basic logic, Phazon can be used as a destructive attack that has shown more power than Samus’s basic power beam, which can destroy souls, and Phazon has already shown it can affect souls, so Phazon absolutely must be capable of destroying souls. Even generic space pirates believed they could destroy ghosts, according to the Chozo Ghosts pirate data.

No. Like we've gone over this, that's just not it. Destroying ghosts = NPI =/= Soul Manip. Corrupting souls =/= soul destruction on hit. Neither of these can be assumed to happen just by increasing the potency of the ability, because they're just not the same ability.

The soul is AUTOMATICALLY part of the essence by default because
A. we know the soul exists and every entity has one, and
B. Phazon can already affect the soul without guidance from any one being, so it should be assumed Phazon can do it with direction as well.

No it ******* shouldn't. All of this is at best "ok so this could possibly be including the soul". We just know "essence" is brought up, it doesn't mean every fundamental concept that makes up someone all put together, it's just "something the subject is made of".

Well funny pew pew beam did allow Dark Samus to absorb every aspect of the hunters she corrupted and corrupt Samus on a level that implies no aspect of the original Samus exists (which could include her spirit, seeing as that would tie into Metroid Prime 1)

"Implies" "Could" "Would"

No.

The proof is that Dark Samus can be reduced to an incorporeal energy life form, and then construct an entire body around her (according to the Prime 2 boss fight), and her soul should be able to perform actions on its own without a body scaling off of Samus (due to having her mental data and genetics), and Dark Samus can create Phazon and use it as armor (scaling off Omega Ridley)

No she can't, no it can't, (neither can Samus), no she can't (without a body, as far as we know).

Slider I'm gonna be real with you, you're just repeating the same arguments based on guesswork, nobody's agreeing with you, I will turn this into a staff only thread if you keep doing it because there's just no progress being made.

 

[JJSliderman]

But Samus isn't that much stronger. She's inferior though comparable in the MP2 final boss battle, and just comparable in MP3 (With the AU being presumably stronger, given we know it amps DS). It's not a stomp-worthy gap either way.

Idk why you’re arguing about this when we obviously know DS had to be reduced to having no atoms remaining anyway.

No. Like we've gone over this, that's just not it. Destroying ghosts = NPI =/= Soul Manip. Corrupting souls =/= soul destruction on hit. Neither of these can be assumed to happen just by increasing the potency of the ability, because they're just not the same ability.

Destroying ghosts is destroying souls. Samus can destroy ghosts, ergo she can destroy souls. Phazon is a stronger beam than Samus’s beams and can affect souls, ergo it can destroy souls.

No it ******* shouldn't. All of this is at best "ok so this could possibly be including the soul". We just know "essence" is brought up, it doesn't mean every fundamental concept that makes up someone all put together, it's just "something the subject is made of".

And in this case, the subject is partly made up of the soul because we know that exists and is something affectable by Phazon.

"Implies" "Could" "Would"

No.

Uh, yes, there’s no evidence Samus’ spirit remained unaffected by the corruption in Prime 3 if Samus allows the corruption to spread to that range, she fully transforms into a Dark Samus duplicate.

No she can't, no it can't, (neither can Samus), no she can't (without a body, as far as we know).

1. Very blatantly turns into a being of pure energy, and then turns back at the end of the fight.
2. Samus very clearly can perform actions without a body in the manga, and Dark Samus’ clones that are extensions of DS can do actions without a corporeal body seeing as they rock up to the Hunter boss fights and Samus can’t tag them at all, plus they emerge as wisp creatures from within the hunters.
3. Dark Samus was capable of doing actions in her wispy ghost soul form after the Hunter boss fights in the form of absorbing the hunters, and even if she can’t generate Phazon she can go to Phazon sources to achieve the same effect. Samus isn’t even shown being capable of affecting Damus in that state, not even dispersing the gas at all with her shots, showing that Damus isn’t even physical at that point.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Chariot190]

I agree she warps.

Yes. Hence the argument.

I agree she warps.

We can make deductive guesses though?

Not for shit like this, and not when it's a guess, based on a guess, based on a guess.
That's the issue, you aren't just making an educated guess. You making assumptions, that only work if OTHER assumptions are true too, and sometimes, even a 3rd stack is added on. At a certain point it becomes less detuctive and more headcanon and we've long past that point.

Yeah I can, if you are much stronger than your opponent it’s perfectly possible to say you can blow away every atom of your opponent (in fact Samus did that in the ending seemingly, how else would Dark Samus be killed?)

DS is made of Phazon. Phaaze collapsed. All Phazon in the universe ceased to be. She died.
Hell that's not only what happened, it's direct proof she CAN'T regen without a body, as her body is phazon and she def didn't have no soul there. Samus didn't even kill her btw so "well samus beam hort ghrosts" ain't an argument, she just died as collateral. Going by your arguments, her soul shouldve been fine and tossed hands still. It didn't.

And she isn't a fucktillion imes stronger than DS, she's comparable.

It’s basic logic, Phazon can be used as a destructive attack that has shown more power than Samus’s basic power beam, which can destroy souls,

And the Plasma Beam has shown more power than the power beam, and can't even interact with them. Evidently, it has nothing do with power.
This isn't how it works.

and Phazon has already shown it can affect souls,

Affect, over time, en masse, and all it did was make them pissy, isn't the same as destroying a soul.

so Phazon absolutely must be capable of destroying souls.

Yeah no, this is extrapolation based on disconnected bits of info, one of which isn't even true.

Even generic space pirates believed they could destroy ghosts, according to the Chozo Ghosts pirate data.

So? They have a bunch of cool shit. And they also didn't. Either way.

Phazon is also shown being capable of destroying the mind

Yeah via extreme brain damage due to radiation poisoning....

Yes, that was stated in Prime 2, when she had far inferior regen and power compared to the end of that game, let alone the 3rd game. It is not a cap on her capabilities across the whole trilogy.

It is when 1. It's worded in that instance to be the cap 2. Nothing ever comes beyond that so we have no reason to assume it changed.

And she can't be low-godly anyway, phazon ceasing to be is what killed her.

The soul is AUTOMATICALLY part of the essence by default because

No. That literally isn't what the word means. Unless they specify, you cannot assume that. Essence doesn't mean "literally every facet that makes up a mf". The word simply doesn't mean what you think it does, idk what else to say man.

A. we know the soul exists and every entity has one, and

This is PROBABLY true. This doesn't change anything.

B. Phazon can already affect the soul without guidance from any one being, so it should be assumed Phazon can do it with direction as well.

Assume this, assume that. Ignore that fact it only happened due to a specific situation much like the Aether Split.

Not really, Chozo ghosts don’t have a living biological brain to interfere with, so their mind manip is more of a spiritual mind as well.

Dude, they're ghosts at that point. Every other instance of it is just brain damage.

And it doesn’t matter how overtime their soul manip was, still happened, and was implied to be very quick once the Chozo actually got corrupted.

It literally does? Prove it happens every pew pew beam shot, if you can't, there's nothing to be said, it's just more random guesswork.

And it wasn't exactly that quick given mfs could write tabloids about it as it happened.

Well funny pew pew beam did allow Dark Samus to absorb every aspect of the hunters she corrupted

What? All we know is she absorbed their biomass, because it was riddled with phazon and they were completely corrupted, a substance she can absorb, and we know due to the game over that once substantially corrupted, their whole biomass can become phazon and even become her

and corrupt Samus on a level that implies no aspect of the original Samus exists (which could include her spirit, seeing as that would tie into Metroid Prime 1)

No? Tf ya getting this from?

The proof is that Dark Samus can be reduced to an incorporeal energy life form,

No she can't? She simply changes her body to such a state, but that is STILL her body.

and then construct an entire body around her (according to the Prime 2 boss fight),

Oh even worse, you're talking about the Prime 2 boss fight.... You realize she was just pure unstable phazon right? She had a body, it was just made of that.

and her soul should be able to perform actions on its own without a body scaling off of Samus (due to having her mental data and genetics),

Samus can't even do that 99% of the time, and even if she could, Samus' soul =/= DS.
Worst part, so what if she could? That doesn't mean she can regen.

and Dark Samus can create Phazon and use it as armor (scaling off Omega Ridley)

So????

Every single Chozo ghost of which there are dozens,

Dozens, of the hundreds of dead burds. Not a good sign.

the entire Alimbic race being able to continuously battle against Gorea’s power while trapped in the seal sphere,

Def ain't Samus. Or souls even.

all the ghosts on the wrecked ship,

That's a whole other bag of worms, did ya know you can't actually kill or destroy them, just get them to piss off for a few seconds?

Samus, etc.

In a hyper-specific context and something she can't do on death.

Dark Samus should be able to as well, due to being a genetic and mental copy of Samus.

Again, ain't how this works.

And mental copy? She looked at her memory, she def ain't a mental copy, if she was she wouldn't be evil.

Both have Chozo DNA and both are infused with Phazon.

Ghosts ain't a universal chozo property and is never implied to be. Chozo Ghosts have a whole slew of context you're just ignoring dude.
Phazon means absolutely nothing.

Well, obviously Samus can. And thus Dark Samus.

Samus CAN'T. When she dies, she dies.

That’s still effects of Phazon, Phazon coming from a Leviathan isn’t special.

Damn Dark Aether normal huh?

No dude, they don't even scale to Leviathan's atm.

The fact her body is 80% Phazon

Not good enough? Or even a reason?

And Dark Samus is a 50+ year old space bird parasite thing who copied someone that can astral project.

Yeah, who was stuck in a cave doing nothing, didn't train or meditate for that shit, and Samus can't fight as a ghost post-death, and even if she could, that has zero to do with low-godly.

Nova beam is literally dura neg in that it, ignores durability?

It bypasses defenses to hit the internals. Internals still have dura, just lower.

Cuz we have multiple points where it’s stated DS is invulnerable to all weapons that aren’t Phazon (namely the Prime 2 final boss), which lines up with Leviathan cores.

You DO know what this CRT is about yeah?

That’s Prime 2, not 3, but I accept that she teleported into the Agon pirate base a lot.

Why'd you mention prime 2 then?
Yuh huh she does it in Prime 3, I said as much like 5 times

Layered…

Yeah nuh uh, if it's just space shit, the only reason it'd be layered is if it's more dims away, but that isn't implied, stated, or even shown.

My arg would be Dark Samus being capable of regrowing a Phazon body around her soul.

Which is based on disconnected conjecture, some of which isn't even true.

I think it works as “possibly low godly”, since DS has all the components to achieve low godly but has just never demonstrated them.

The very fact she died when her phazon body ceased to exist is a pretty hard no.

If you want to argue DS wouldn’t be able to generate Phazon as a soul form, then she could just as easily travel to a Phazon source and immerse her soul in that to regrow her body, like what happened in the third game.

How can she travel anywhere, ALL her abilities come from her phazon. As a soul, she wouldn't have the stuff that lets her fly, warp, whatever.

Very blatantly turns into a being of pure energy, and then turns back at the end of the fight.

Yes, a being of pure unstable phazon energy. Not a soul.

Samus very clearly can perform actions without a body in the manga,

In a specific situation, can samus fight as a ghost while dead? No, she can't.

and Dark Samus’ clones that are extensions of DS can do actions without a corporeal body seeing as they rock up to the Hunter boss fights and Samus can’t tag them at all, plus they emerge as wisp creatures from within the hunters.

They're literally just phazon echo things, being non-corporal =/= being a soul/being dead.

Dark Samus was capable of doing actions in her wispy ghost soul form after the Hunter boss fights in the form of absorbing the hunters, and even if she can’t generate Phazon she can go to Phazon sources to achieve the same effect.

As above, that's just her taking an intangible form. Do you think the intang phazon mooks in prime 3 can regen the same? Or the Ing? The Ing can take whispy ghost-like forms too, can they regen from a soul? That's rhetorical.

Samus isn’t even shown being capable of affecting Damus in that state, not even dispersing the gas at all with her shots, showing that Damus isn’t even physical at that point.

Intangibility my dude, ain't even the only phazon goon in the game like that, another can only be harmed by Phazon too.

I'm going to make it perfectly clear, if you reply, and it's filled with "could", "would", "should", "implies", but no real backing evidence, I'm not gonna bother replying to you again and this can become a staff thread, because this is legit every time.

 

[Deagonx]

Not for shit like this, and not when it's a guess, based on a guess, based on a guess.
That's the issue, you aren't just making an educated guess. You making assumptions, that only work if OTHER assumptions are true too, and sometimes, even a 3rd stack is added on. At a certain point it becomes less detuctive and more headcanon and we've long past that point.

I'm going to make it perfectly clear, if you reply, and it's filled with "could", "would", "should", "implies", but no real backing evidence, I'm not gonna bother replying to you again and this can become a staff thread, because this is legit every time.

I strongly agree with this. These sorts of arguments are a huge waste of time. It's one thing to be a supporter, it's another thing to try and argue line-by-line every downgrade thread with this kind of stuff.

 

[SomebodyData]

I don't mind also listing it as regen but it'd have to be in the same breath as the rest because we don't really know the mechanics of it still, it does say that she began to regen (If DS is the same creature as MP and not some kind of offspring, which is unclear) only after absorbing the suit, maybe it needed it as fuel or something. Technically Samus' power suit does regen.

Phazon seems to consistently provide regeneration to it's users, like pretty much everyone in Corruption, DS, and even the Omega Pirate earlier in the same game (Although his is Low-Mid).

In one of the guides for the game, Metroid Prime is also stated to be able to regenerate without the need of the suit:

"Metroid Prime draws its power from Phazon, and it will try to create pools and regenerate itself." (Metroid Prime: The Official Nintendo Player's Guide)

Rather it seems her regeneration is phazon- based, with herself capable of producing phazon.

 

[Chariot190]

"Metroid Prime draws its power from Phazon, and it will try to create pools and regenerate itself." (Metroid Prime: The Official Nintendo Player's Guide)

We actually were gonna look through that, but it uses the NTSC version iirc so idk how accurate thatd still be.

 

[Armorchompy]

In one of the guides for the game, Metroid Prime is also stated to be able to regenerate without the need of the suit:

Rather it seems her regeneration is phazon- based, with herself capable of producing phazon.

You know what, that's fair. I don't really like using most guides but this is a Nintendo Power one so it's probably fine- I actually did go through it but must've missed that bit. Could I ask for a scan on imgur on whatever to put on the profile?