Danny Phantom A Glitch in Time - Clockwork/Dark Danny Higher-Dimensional Existence & Conceptual Manipulation

[LordGriffin1000]

I said I was coming back to this and I ment it despite my dislike of Higher-Dimensional stuff but I do still think Clockwork applies so I'm going to try and follow it through. This thread is a continuation of this one but I will only be focusing on Clockwork since other ghosts can't benefit as energy cannot be Higher-Dimensional in status and since they are all energy, they are forever screwed.

Higher-Dimensional Existence

Clockwork is revealed to be the embodiment of time, and to shut down that flower language argument, it's directly shown when Dark Danny merged with Clockwork, it had an impact on the timeline itself as causing time glitches and time iteslf to literally falling apart and reality was going to implode, and Dark Danny was releasing energy that started tearing holes in the Ghost Zone that would eventually cause it's destruction. The glitches in time caused Danny and his friends to be repeatedly sent to different points in time randomly. Dark Danny's (Clockwork's) mere existence was literally causing reality to dissolve and with each hit he took reality became more unstable. Clockwork exists in multiple time periods at once and they can all converge at one point in time, with Clockwork saying form him, time moves forwards and backwards. This would help prove he's actually throughout the timeline and that his connection to time is different from others. The fusion with Dark Danny and timeline itself being damaged also contributed to Clockwork himself being weakened as he mentioned himself. He even used his energy to fuse several of his time medallions together to construct a new staff which is literally stated to be apart of the timeline itself which means Clockwork's energy is apart of the timeline. With everything mentioned above I don't see how Clockwork being the embodiment of time is vauge. He has the statement and has the feats that showcase that if something happens to him, the timeline itself is effected and begins to fall apart, with it becoming even more unstable if you strike him. He is weakened if the timeline is damaged and he exists in multiple time periods at once. Clockwork and Dark Danny (Clockwork Overshadowed) should have Higher-Dimensional Existence.

Higher-Dimensional Existence (4-D - Is the embodiment of time which is shown to be literal as he exists throughout multiple periods of time at once and his energy being able to merge his time medallions together to construct a new staff which stated to be apart of the timeline itself. When Dark Danny overshadowed Clockwork, the unstable fusion caused glitches in time that in turn caused time itself to fall apart and reality to eventually implode, with his mere existence causing reality to dissolve and each hit he took made reality more unstable. The damage to the timeline even has an effect on Clockwork himself)

Conceptual Manipulation

As I mentioned above Clockwork and Dark Danny's unstable fusion was causing glitches in time and time itself was falling apart and reality would eventually implode. Reality was literally dissolving due the their existence and becoming unstable with each hit they took. I believe this would grant the two Conceptual Manipulation (Conceptual Destruction).

Conceptual Manipulation (Conceptual Destruction; Type 2, Depndent Concept. The unstable fusion between Dark Danny and Clockwork caused glitches throughout time which resulted in time itself to begin falling apart and reality to eventually implode. Their mere existence dissolving reality and each hit they took making it more unstable)

Agree:

6 (Planck69, Lonkitt, The_Axiom_of_Virgo (HDE), Maitreya, Eseseso, Maverick_Zero_X,

Disagree:

1 (ImmortalDread, Deceived3596 (CM),

Neutral:

3 (Vietthai96 (CM), DarkDragonMedeus,The_Axiom_of_Virgo (CM), Deceived3596 (HDE)

 

[Maitreya12]

For the conceptual manipulation part, it would be type 2 instead of type 1.

Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation means that it exists independent of the reality the concept governs. As in, if you’re a type 1 concept of “circles”, altering all the governing body of circles that govern reality wouldn’t impact the concept of “circularness”, but if you’re a type 2 concept, if I destroyed all things described to be a “circle” in existence, then I would’ve destroyed the concept of “circularness” along with it since it’s dependent on reality to exist.

This instance seems like Clockwork is dependent on reality to exist for “time” to exist so I would say it’s type 2 conceptual manipulation instead of type 1.

 

[Planck69]

Maitreya makes sense to me. Otherwise, I agree.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

For the conceptual manipulation part, it would be type 2 instead of type 1.

Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation means that it exists independent of the reality the concept governs. As in, if you’re a type 1 concept of “circles”, altering all the governing body of circles that govern reality wouldn’t impact the concept of “circularness”, but if you’re a type 2 concept, if I destroyed all things described to be a “circle” in existence, then I would’ve destroyed the concept of “circularness” along with it since it’s dependent on reality to exist.

This instance seems like Clockwork is dependent on reality to exist for “time” to exist so I would say it’s type 2 conceptual manipulation instead of type 1.

Fair enough, I'll change it.

 

[Vietthai96]

I can find logic in this, and honestly i want to agree, but my past experience with how CM standard being handled, i'm gonna neutral for a time being

 

[Lonkitt]

Spongebob continues to lose "most overpowered Nickelodeon character" title. Asked to leave Nicktoons

This looks good

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm neutral and waiting for Higher-D experts to comment.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Even Hell's kitchen would fear all the spooky courses @LordGriffin1000 has been cooking recently. I agree with HDE since even unremarkable Ghost's are already accepted to use 4D energy plus all the clear evidence in the second paragraph of the OP and honestly if a "ghost" thats essentially a time god that has multilocation, type 3 acausality, type 2 AE and is nigh-omnipresent across a 2-A range doesn't get some form of HDE then tier 2 here truly doesn't any make sense (tbh it's makes little sense already).

Neutral on CM since I've seen past CRTs use similar reasoning that both got rejected and accepted by different staff members.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I think HDE is only if you are higher dimensional in a spatial sense, not temporally.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I think HDE is only if you are higher dimensional in a spatial sense, not temporally.

A timeline is 4-D by our standards iirc, and Clockwork is the embodiment of time and clearly has an effect the entire timeline, causing not only time itself to fall apart but also all reality which includes space. When Dark Danny and Clockwork became one it is shown when he was struck, reality aka the timeline was becoming more unstable. So Clockwork's embodiment of time statement clearly means the timeline going off the destruction his unstable merge with Dark Danny was causing.

 

[Maitreya12]

Yeah...the logic does in fact follow.

If Timeline=4D construct and Clockwork=Timeline, then that does in fact mean Clockwork is 4D.

I agree with HDE

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

A timeline is 4-D by our standards iirc, and Clockwork is the embodiment of time and clearly has an effect the entire timeline, causing not only time itself to fall apart but also all reality which includes space. When Dark Danny and Clockwork became one it is shown when he was struck, reality aka the timeline was becoming more unstable. So Clockwork's embodiment of time statement clearly means the timeline going off the destruction his unstable merge with Dark Danny was causing.

I'm not saying a timeline isn't a 4D Construct, but I'm saying it's 4D because we treat it as 3 Spatial Dimensions + 1 Temporal Dimension. Spatially, Clockwork is 3D, but including time, it's 4D. If you check the HDE Ability, it only mentions being spatially higher dimensional and having an extra axis in space, and it never mentions time or temporal dimensions.

The only reason I'm bringing this up is that in this CRT, HDE was fought against for the very same reason.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm not saying a timeline isn't a 4D Construct, but I'm saying it's 4D because we treat it as 3 Spatial Dimensions + 1 Temporal Dimension. Spatially, Clockwork is 3D, but including time, it's 4D. If you check the HDE Ability, it only mentions being spatially higher dimensional and having an extra axis in space, and it never mentions time or temporal dimensions.

The only reason I'm bringing this up is that in this CRT, HDE was fought against for the very same reason.

That's weird because iirc we give HDE to characters that become one with the universe (time-space continuum) which is 4-D. If you need another spatial dimension (4-D space) then some characters might need downgrades.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

The only reason I'm bringing this up is that in this CRT, HDE was fought against for the very same reason.

Well my thread was perfect, abstracting a universe which is by default a 4D structure you should be atleast 4D in nature or a 5D to do so . So I will ask admins to reopen my thread.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

That's weird because iirc we give HDE to characters that become one with the universe (time-space continuum) which is 4-D. If you need another spatial dimension (4-D space) then some characters might need downgrades.

Pein might be able to clarify, they were the one's who brought it up.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I'm not saying a timeline isn't a 4D Construct, but I'm saying it's 4D because we treat it as 3 Spatial Dimensions + 1 Temporal Dimension. Spatially, Clockwork is 3D, but including time, it's 4D. If you check the HDE Ability, it only mentions being spatially higher dimensional and having an extra axis in space, and it never mentions time or temporal dimensions.

The only reason I'm bringing this up is that in this CRT, HDE was fought against for the very same reason.

I agree with LordGriffin on HDE. Plenty of characters who are physically one with space-time have higher dimensional existence. The example you linked was probably one of those one-off scuffles centered around some people being especially nitpicky about the specific wording used on the pages. I see no reason why temporal dimensions shouldn't grant HDE.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

To clear up the HDE discussion time is valid because HDE relies on axises and we consider time an axis on the wiki so it’s fine for HDE we just don’t accept R>F for HDE and other things that aren’t spatial or temporal

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

To clear up the HDE discussion time is valid because HDE relies on axises and we consider time an axis on the wiki so it’s fine for HDE we just don’t accept R>F for HDE and other things that aren’t spatial or temporal

Oh, alright then.

 

[Eseseso]

Agree.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I'm gonna try and ping some knowledgeable members on CM.

@PrinceofPein @Bobsican @TheGreatJedi13

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I'm gonna try and ping some knowledgeable members on CM.

@PrinceofPein @Bobsican @TheGreatJedi13

Normal users cannot ping.

 

[Vietthai96]

That's weird because iirc we give HDE to characters that become one with the universe (time-space continuum) which is 4-D. If you need another spatial dimension (4-D space) then some characters might need downgrades.

I saw that staff thread of your, but anyway since i don't have permission to comment, i will say via this that time by default of our wiki is a physical dimension/axis that why verse that have multiple time dimensions/axes can get higher tier since time is treated as physical dimension/axis, unless specific verse establish time differently, eh such as if i'm not wrong is The Elder Scroll series, which time is abstract concept in that verse.

And since time is physical dimension/axis, so it qualify to give Higher-Dimensional Existence like spatial dimension/axis

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I saw that staff thread of your, but anyway since i don't have permission to comment, i will say via this that time by default of our wiki is a physical dimension/axis that why verse that have multiple time dimensions/axes can get higher tier since time is treated as physical dimension/axis, unless specific verse establish time differently, eh such as if i'm not wrong is The Elder Scroll series, which time is abstract concept in that verse.

And since time is physical dimension/axis, so it qualify to give Higher-Dimensional Existence like spatial dimension/axis

You have my promotion to post that on the staff discussion thread if you wish.

 

[Vietthai96]

Bump, look like i don't need to comment on HDE staff thread, now what left is CM

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Bump, look like i don't need to comment on HDE staff thread, now what left is CM

Yup, so with this thread clarifying that being/embodying a timeline/space-time continuum (past, present and future of a 3-dimensional space on a universal scale) does allow for Higher-Dimensional Existence (4-D).

There shouldn't be an issue as Clockwork is directly stated to be the embodiment of time (the timeline), as he exists across the timeline at once and if something happens to him it had an impact on time and reality itself (the entire timeline) as his unstable power was causing time itself to fall apart and reality to implode and even cause reality to dissolve due to Dark Danny + Clockwork's existence with it literally being proven that if you strike him reality would become unstable which further proves the outright connection to the timeline along with Clockwork stating that the timeline being damaged has an affect on him (all of this is in the OP)

It's pretty clear he is the literal embodiment of time (the timeline) and should have Higher-Dimensional Existence (4-D). As for conceptual manipulation, that seems like a mix bag though 2 Staff members agree but think more discussion is fine.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am expressing my opinion here, although I am aware that it is of no significance as I will not be deemed as such.

I shall proceed with a laudatory language counter-argument as, frankly speaking, he is merely a guardian of time (it is his job to monitor and maintain the flow of time, rather than being the timeline itself). But I won't focus on it much, and say he is the embodiment of time. I, personally, believe that the statement should not be taken literally, but that is my opinion.

Moving on; your argument is that him existing in multiple places should be a supportive reference that he is essentially to be a literal timeline, which should not be fundamentally true. He also has many other abilities, such as nigh-omniscience, clairvoyance, and teleportation. It has not been stated, he got those abilities because he is a literal timeline (until now, there is no statement for this).

Furthermore, he possesses a flaw that is detrimental to his ability to accurately predict the future, given that despite possessing knowledge of the past, present, and future, he is incapable of anticipating how events will unfold.

It is a bit odd; if he is indeed the embodiment of the timeline which you claim; then every sentence in these scans implies the opposite. Like, there is not a single statement where he is the timeline himself, rather the watcher of it. Reminds me of God of Time in Maou Gakuin, similar jobs.

I would like to clarify that I am not here to argue against standards, like this thread. I do not agree that he is a literal timeline, so my disagreement lies with the available context, not the standards.

For conceptual manipulation:
I have thoroughly perused every scan, and it appears that they have been duplicated due to their identical justification from HDE. In the event that your thread is passed, please merge them. I do not see any reason to conclude that this is not a component of his abilities, specifically time manipulation/Chronokinesis.

---

This is all I got. I am aware that the thread received two thread moderators (with OP – 3 votes) to pass, but I feel there is a necessity to comment here and share my honest rational assessment.

To clarify my position, if we take the statement to be literal, and he is the physical embodiment of time, I can force myself to agree with possibly AE type 2 (which I personally still don't agree with, but I'm moving on), but I strongly disagree with the suggestion of HDE. There is no evidence to submit that being HDE confers any advantages. However, he possesses numerous abilities that pertain to time manipulation, but this is not due to his HDE status, but rather due to his ability to observe time.

Regarding the notion of conceptual manipulation, I am unable to discern any rationale for it. Unless you hold the belief that time is a concept and not a physical entity, I respectfully disagree with your assertion. (otherwise, each one who is a manipulator of time is also a conceptual manipulator too).

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Commenting here (I know, it is worthless since I will hold no importance here)

I'm tired of people making this argument when if your argument is logical and staff members agree with your argument, it has importance.

I shall proceed with a laudatory language counter-argument as, frankly speaking, he is merely a guardian of time (it is his job to monitor and maintain the flow of time, rather than being the timeline itself). But I won't focus on it much, and say he is the embodiment of time. I, personally, believe that the statement should not be taken literally, but that is my opinion.

No absolutely not, it says he is the embodiment of time, you are just saying it shouldn't be taken literally despite his physical impact on the timeline. His job is also to watch over time but how you used that to ignore his statement has no backing.

Moving on; your argument is that him existing in multiple places should be a supportive reference that he is essentially to be a literal timeline, which should not be fundamentally true. He also has many other abilities, such as omniscience, clairvoyance, and teleportation. It has not been stated, he got those abilities because he is a literal timeline (until now, there is no statement for this).

It doesn't half to... if he's the embodiment of time then it makes sense that he exists in multiple places throughout the timeline. Once again, your using him having other abilities as a counter argument but it doesn't hold up.

Furthermore, he possesses a flaw that is detrimental to his ability to accurately predict the future, given that despite possessing knowledge of the past, present, and future, he is incapable of anticipating how events will unfold.

You blatant are ignoring context of the series. In "The Ultimate Enemy" Clockwork is directly stated to know everything and sees the timeline from above and all it's twists and turns, he manipulated every which lead the Observants to call him a cheater because he played them with his acting. However, in the "A Glitch in Time", he's caught be Dark Danny becuse he literally is stated to not be apart of the timeline anymore and is stated once again exist outside of the timestream!. So how can it be a flaw when Clockwork sees everything in the timeline and the only time he can't is when it involved someone who no longer was apart of the the timeline had a place in the timestream!? Your argument makes no sense.

It is a bit odd; if he is indeed the embodiment of the timeline which you claim; then every sentence in these scans implies the opposite. Like, there is not a single statement where he is the timeline himself, rather the watcher of it. Reminds me of God of Time in Maou Gakuin, similar jobs.

So you just ignored that Dark Danny, who became the new Clockwork by overshadowing him passively caused glitches across the timeline that caused reality to dissolve through his existence alone and that if you actually hit him the timeline is affected... if he wasn't the embodiment of time then striking him wouldn't have a physical impact on the timeline (making it unstable).

I would like to clarify that I am not here to argue against standards, like this thread. I do not agree that he is a literal timeline, so my disagreement lies with the available context, not the standards.

Your opinion is noted.

For conceptual manipulation:
I have thoroughly perused every scan, and it appears that they have been duplicated due to their identical justification from HDE. In the event that your thread is passed, please merge them. I do not see any reason to conclude that this is not a component of his abilities, specifically time manipulation/Chronokinesis.

I only suggested conceptual manipulation because I noticed other characters got it for erasing/destroying time itself. I don't mind not adding and just leaving it alone, Dark Danny already has space-time manipulation with this in the description.

This is all I got. I am aware that the thread received two thread moderators (with OP – 3 votes) to pass, but I feel there is a necessity to comment here and share my honest rational assessment.

To clarify my position, if we take the statement to be literal, and he is the physical embodiment of time, I can force myself to agree with possibly AE type 2 (which I personally still don't agree with, but I'm moving on), but I strongly disagree with the suggestion of HDE. There is no evidence to submit that being HDE confers any advantages. However, he possesses numerous abilities that pertain to time manipulation, but this is not due to his HDE status, but rather due to his ability to observe time.

He already has AE Type 2 which is fully accepted. Your disagreement has been noted in the OP.

Regarding the notion of conceptual manipulation, I am unable to discern any rationale for it. Unless you hold the belief that time is a concept and not a physical entity, I respectfully disagree with your assertion. (otherwise, each one who is a manipulator of time is also a conceptual manipulator too).

I don't hold a "belief" as you call it, I'm simply suggesting an ability based on what I gathered. If it doesn't apply then it doesn't apply. Simple as that.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

The OP looks good.

 

[Maitreya12]

Generally for instances like these I try to look at consistent or checked boxes for the claim needing to be proven here.

Like for example, if the claim to prove is “Clockwork is the embodiment of time”, then I think things like him being able to exist at multiple points in the timeline at the same time and being able to see everything within the timeline going on all at once is supporting evidence to the burden of proof for the claim.

Now it can be possible that these showings are just the result of different abilities leading to the same result instead of him being the literal embodiment of the timeline, but I don’t think just the presence of that possibility necessarily discredits the notion that the showings themselves support the initial claim of “Clockwork being the embodiment of the timeline.”

Even more so, people needing to be “outside of the timeline” or things of that nature just to bypass these certain abilities of Clockwork I think does help lead to the supporting notion of the claim. Evidence doesn’t really just exist in a vacuum so I believe all these supporting notions in tandem support the conclusion of the claim being made.

I think if Clockwork himself says he is the timeline and him not being there leads to the destruction of the timeline means it’s a fair thing to say that he is 4-D just like the timeline is.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree

 

[ImmortalDread]

I won't be able to address the points until next Friday (including the weekends). I have a lot to say in response to the counter-post, but I would rather not hinder the flow of this well-crafted thread. Please have no hesitation to continue without me.

@Maitreya, my approach to evaluating statements differs. I don't comb through statements from various contexts to connect dots and validate them. Instead, I assess them based on their context, objectivity, bias, reliability, credibility, source validity, language, tone/intent (serosity level and figurative language), and its actual conveyance. Additionally, I consider factors like the character's background, story setting, emotional state, motivation, corroboration, and logical plausibility.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'll comment on the Conceptual Manipulation when I have the chance.

Neutral on the Higher D stuff.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I won't be able to address the points until next Friday (including the weekends). I have a lot to say in response to the counter-post, but I would rather not hinder the flow of this well-crafted thread. Please have no hesitation to continue without me.

I'll comment on the Conceptual Manipulation when I have the chance.

Neutral on the Higher D stuff.

Are either of you still interested in this discussion?

@Maitreya, my approach to evaluating statements differs. I don't comb through statements from various contexts to connect dots and validate them. Instead, I assess them based on their context, objectivity, bias, reliability, credibility, source validity, language, tone/intent (serosity level and figurative language), and its actual conveyance. Additionally, I consider factors like the character's background, story setting, emotional state, motivation, corroboration, and logical plausibility.

Most of these all fall under who Clockwork is as a character and how he acts i think. He always tells it how it is and never sugarcoats it or speaks in a cryptic manner. He has no hidden agenda and his emotional state is more or less calm and collected. As for the tone, Clockwork is speaking in a serious manner during the end of what was a serious event about how proud he was to the group so there isn't some goffy tone and he's the most credible individual and source in the series. He could have easily said something else but his wording was clear and given he doesn't speak figuratively in any of his appearances, I don't see why we'd assume he is now or doubt his claim, especially when it's backed. Heck, pretty much every time he's stated something, it's shown and proven true. This time, ignoring the side stuff like him existing in multiple places throughout the timeline at once, his existence has a literal effect on the timeline itself as directly stated. I don't see a hidden meaning behind his words or some goffy tone, I see a character a character explaining clearly what they mean.

As for this thread itself Higher-Dimensional Existence seems accepted by majority and staff. As for conceptual manipulation, it's clear that it's not favored by everyone and thus solid enough so I'll come back to that another time in a different thread when I've got a better understanding of it. I'll let this remain open a little longer if ImmortalDread still wants to continue the discussion but if not, I'll close this and add Higher-Dimensional Existence to Clockwork and Dark Danny (Clockwork) profiles.

 

[Deceived3596]

Are either of you still interested in this discussion?

I kinda forgot I posted in this thread ngl.

Sure, I'll give my opinion here when I have the chance.

 

[ImmortalDread]

After the migration, I could not find the thread through searching notification since they got reset.

I will be dropping my response today or tomorrow. In the meanwhile, is there any chance to view the entire comic? Or relevant chapters of the comics?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

After the migration, I could not find the thread through searching notification since they got reset.

I will be dropping my response today or tomorrow. In the meanwhile, is there any chance to view the entire comic? Or relevant chapters of the comics?

That I'm aware of, no. I've been trying to find it so I can add clearer scans but haven't been able to find it fully so far which is why the scans are screenshots from my book.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It would have been beneficial but alright.

 

[Deceived3596]

After reading through all the evidence in the OP, I disagree with Conceptual Manipulation entirely.

The issue I have with Conceptual Manipulation here would be the fact we aren't given any direct or implicit quantifications for what "time" is being referenced as. What we're given is that after Dark Danny fuses with Clockwork, who embodies time, it causes time and reality itself to start glitching out and dissolving. This isn't enough evidence to assume "time" being referenced here is the conceptual idea of time itself rather than just the physical understanding of what time is. Time in itself isn't inherently an abstract concept without physical implications, time generally just denotes the "continued sequences of existence and events" across reality. So until I see further evidence supporting an ontological interpretation rather than physical, I disagree with assuming this would be Conceptual Manipulation.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Wait a minute, is time a concept? If time is a concept, the bird that boot DBH timelines should have conceptual manipulation.

 

[Hypertornado099]

I would agree with conceptual manipulation if the wiki accepted time as a concept, which would make 90% of time manipulators have conceptual manipulation