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Dabura scaled up to SPC instead of PC.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nullflowerblush said:
The Daizenshuu states that Gohan at the beginning of the Majin Buu Conflict and Gohan during the Cell Games are equal.

That being said though:
  1. Nothing suggests Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2. If he was a Super Saiyan during that fight, it would be obvious.
  2. Dabura was toying with Gohan during that fight. When they encountered each other again, Dabura revealed he was testing Gohan and was confident he could defeat him.
Click to expand...
That can't be true or else buu saga SSJ2 Gohan would equal to his SSJ2 self in the cell saga which is far from the case.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
That can't be true or else buu saga SSJ2 Gohan would equal to his SSJ2 self in the cell saga which is far from the case.
Click to expand...
His base power has stagnated because he gave up training.

But, Gohan explicitly states that he is unable to draw out the power he did back in the Cell Games (i.e., Super Saiyan 2) because he does not have the anger he did back then, hence why the form was so weak in the Budokai and why he could no longer pull it out against Dabura and Majin Buu.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
His base power has stagnated because he gave up training.

But, Gohan explicitly states that he is unable to draw out the power he did back in the Cell Games (i.e., Super Saiyan 2) because he does not have the anger he did back then, hence why the form was so weak in the Budokai and why he could no longer pull it out against Dabura and Majin Buu.
Click to expand...
But he can go super saiyan 2, yet was stated to not be as strong as he was vs cell, he was much weaker.
 
Gohan never used SS2 against Dabura, he only did it in the Tenkaichi Budokai.

Every SS2 consistently have sparks on them on the Buu Saga, even Gohan at the tournament and you can see he never uses it against Dabura or the Buu Egg.
 
They do compare him to Cell, but never really specify which form. But it's consistent that SSJ Gohan is a lot weaker than he was in Cell saga and yet evenly matched with Dabura. This is despite SPC being roughly less than half of Teen Gohan's true power. SPC also wasn't around long, though Vegeta was only momentarily around to sense SPC's power in the first place and Goku was in line at King Yama's office alongside King Kai. But he did teleport to Earth to give Teen Gohan social support and a slight boost with the Father Son Kamahameha.

But as for the fight scene between Gohan and Dabura, might be a good idea to post an Imgur album of the whole fight scene in the manga to see Gohan's transformation. It can be told by hair style and whether or not electric aura is showing but it's mostly the hair style is the best place to judge; SSJ2 only has one bang while SSJ1 has a couple normally. But yes, Gohan is capable of going SSJ2 despite his forms each being significantly weaker than he was in Cell saga. And it's noted that if Goku or Vegeta fought Dabura instead of Gohan, it would have been a stomp.
 
Medeus and AKM:

So what should we do here then?
 
If we assume Dabura is comparable to Perfect Cell, that would mean:
Dabura = Perfect Cell

SSJ Adult Gohan < SSJ Gohan (Cell Games)

Dabura = SSJ Adult Gohan

Perfect Cell < SSJ Gohan (Cell Games)
Click to expand...
And this just isn't accurate.

On the other hand, if we assume Dabura is comparable to Super Perfect Cell, then:
Dabura = Super Perfect Cell

SS2 Adult Gohan < SS2 Gohan (Cell Games)

Dabura = SS2 Adult Gohan

Super Perfect Cell < SS2 Gohan (Cell Games)
Click to expand...
Which is way more accurate. And what is more, it would mean that SSJ Goku (Buu Saga) is weaker than Perfect Cell, an argument that was accepted on this thread.
 
What do the other staff members here think about the above post?
 
Dabura is not equal to Gohan, he's stronger than him, he casually put him in the backfoot for most of his fight and still thought he was trash when he was about to fight him again.
 
Firstly, Gohan is not weaker.

According to the Daizenshuu 2, Gohan never grew or slumped in power over the years. This is important, because if he were in Super Saiyan 2, even with a fraction of his power, he would have absolutely dogged on Dabura, regardless of whether he scaled to Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell -- especially if the former.

"But, Vegeta said Gohan was weaker than he was as a kid." Vegeta only began to truly acknowledge Gohan's power once he ascended and became a Super Saiyan 2. Narratively speaking, the logical conclusion would be that Vegeta was commenting on the fact he was not using Super Saiyan 2.

"Vegeta said that Gohan looked out of shape after encountering him during the peacetime." Looked. And, he only took one look at him. Also, this comment in of itself does not mean much. Also, Gohan is not out of shape. He has maintained his muscular build since childhood and has a healthy diet.

"Gohan stated that his senses had dulled throughout the years." This has nothing to do with his power. Your combat instincts are naturally dampened when you are disengaged from combat for seven years. If you had not had the feel of combat in years, you cannot just jump back in without refreshing yourself.


Secondly, please stop saying Gohan and Dabura are equals.

Dabura was clearly not trying during their battle, and in spite of that, he could:
  • Take a barrage of punches from Gohan without budging; Gohan eventually broke his guard, but Dabura was relatively unharmed
  • Completely outmaneuver Gohan and fool him with an afterimage which is indicative of superior speed
  • Blast Gohan into a river and leave him flustered
  • Give Gohan trouble, according to Vegeta
  • Nearly bypass Gohan's senses from a fair distance away which is, once again, indicative of superior speed
  • And, pressure Gohan with his sword who strained himself attempting to resist
Along with that, Goku commented that "He's still got a chance" in the battle, insinuating that Gohan was on the losing end at the moment. He also pointed out that Gohan had used up a lot of stamina during his fight; on the other hand, Dabura was completely unfazed.

Anyway, Dabura's goals during the battle were to collect energy for Babidi. While he was heading back into the spaceship to watch Babidi control Vegeta, he dismissed Gohan as though we was insignificant to him, and when the two of them met once again without any restrictions, Dabura was confident he could easily dispose of Gohan.

"But, he ducked out of the way when Gohan fired his Kamehameha at Buu's egg."
  1. Gohan unleashed his rage -- still not a Super Saiyan 2 though -- and powered up before unleashing his Kamehameha.
  2. Dabura ducked out of the way to protect Babidi.
So, yes, Dabura is stronger than Gohan.

Perfect Cell = Dabura >>> 18 y/o SSJ Gohan = 11 y/o SSJ Gohan. Seems pretty consistent, right?


Lastly, Gohan could not become a Super Saiyan 2 after the match with Kibito, or at the very least chose not to.

First off, Gohan does not look the part of a Super Saiyan 2. Toriyama is a pretty consistent guy in regards to his artwork. During the match with Kibito, Gohan was drawn with his typical serious face, ultra-spiky hair, golden -- this is very important -- energy, and bio-electric aura. When Goku and Vegeta battle each other as ascended Super Saiyans, they are consistently drawn with those features throughout the entire fight, even when they are not actively battling each other. And, when Vegeta transforms during the final battle against Kid Buu, he also exhibits these features. On the contrary, Gohan, along with the rest of the standard Super Saiyan users (i.e., Goku, Vegeta, Goten and Trunks, Gotenks, Vegito) exhibit the standard Super Saiyan traits when they transform:
  • Moderately floaty and spiky hair
  • Blue eyes
  • Typical aura; as in, without electricity
  • And, white energy
The color of the aura of a Super Saiyan in the manga is white, both in the original publications and the Full Color. When they power up to unleash a Super Attack or something of that caliber, their aura becomes golden, but in any other case, it is pure white - it looks nice.

And, guess what-

"What about his bangs? They looked differently during the fight with Dabura than they usually do as a Super Saiyan." His hair does this weird thing where his front-most bang warps from what it was at the beginning of the story to what it looked like when he was a Super Saiyan 2, so this counter is moot.

Second off, Gohan, in-universe, is incapable of becoming a Super Saiyan 2 during that battle -- he cannot get it to stand.

Goku tells Gohan to get angry and bring out all the power he has, reminding him of his fight with Cell and how he would be unstoppable if he did so. Gohan was angry in his previous fight with Dabura, and everybody could see that. So, why would he tell him that if he were to get angry like he did in the Cell Games, he would unstoppable? If Gohan truly were already a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, then this comment would be irrelevant. Later during his second encounter with Dabura, Gohan remembers Goku's words but then states that he is not angry enough to become what he was in the Cell Games, a Super Saiyan 2. One of you might be quick to add that, "This is referencing the fact that he is not as strong as he was before".

What?

Goku tells Gohan to get angry again in hopes that he would become a Super Saiyan 2 and clean house. Gohan states that he cannot get as angry as he did against Cell and thus, cannot become a Super Saiyan 2 again; consequently, he cannot become strong enough to destroy the opposition. And, remember, even if he only had a fraction of his power as a Super Saiyan 2, he could still wipe them, considering the difference between him and Super Perfect Cell even with less than half of his full power available. This has nothing to do with his Super Saiyan 2 being weaker than before. He just cannot transform.

On top of that, at that time, the idea of being able to use all of his power in general against Buu was a hypothetical/best case scenario to Gohan, and he did not even consider trying to use Super Saiyan 2 to draw the Z-Sword out of the ground -- white energy and standard aura.

He did not choose to attempt to use Super Saiyan 2 -- he knew his efforts would be useless.
He could not use Super Saiyan 2.
He was not in Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.

Lastly, and I cannot believe I completely overlooked this until I was finished writing this post, but Gohan was rational and had a clear mind during his fight with Dabura and afterwards. If you all remember, in Super Saiyan 2, Gohan reverted to the savage and irrational ways of an ordinary Super Saiyan, as he was consumed by wrath and malice. He and Goku overcame this emotional turmoil as Super Saiyans, but Gohan has yet to actually control Super Saiyan 2 like that. He was arrogant, snarky, and overly cruel as opposed to his typical pacifistic nature. Here, Gohan was just writing to defend his people, and he was nothing like his preteen self against Cell.


In conclusion:
  • Gohan was not in Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura
  • Dabura was stronger than Gohan
  • Gohan did not become weaker between the Cell Games and Majin Buu Conflict
Super Perfect Cell >>>>>> Perfect Cell = Dabura >>> 18 y/o SSJ Gohan = 11 y/o SSJ Gohan.
Are you happy?
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Firstly, Gohan is not weaker.

According to the Daizenshuu 2, Gohan never grew or slumped in power over the years. This is important, because if he were in Super Saiyan 2, even with a fraction of his power, he would have absolutely dogged on Dabura, regardless of whether he scaled to Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell -- especially if the former.

"But, Vegeta said Gohan was weaker than he was as a kid." Vegeta only began to truly acknowledge Gohan's power once he ascended and became a Super Saiyan 2. Narratively speaking, the logical conclusion would be that Vegeta was commenting on the fact he was not using Super Saiyan 2.

"Vegeta said that Gohan looked out of shape after encountering him during the peacetime." Looked. And, he only took one look at him. Also, this comment in of itself does not mean much. Also, Gohan is not out of shape. He has maintained his muscular build since childhood and has a healthy diet.

"Gohan stated that his senses had dulled throughout the years." This has nothing to do with his power. Your combat instincts are naturally dampened when you are disengaged from combat for seven years. If you had not had the feel of combat in years, you cannot just jump back in without refreshing yourself.


Secondly, please stop saying Gohan and Dabura are equals.

Dabura was clearly not trying during their battle, and in spite of that, he could:
  • Take a barrage of punches from Gohan without budging; Gohan eventually broke his guard, but Dabura was relatively unharmed
  • Completely outmaneuver Gohan and fool him with an afterimage which is indicative of superior speed
  • Blast Gohan into a river and leave him flustered
  • Give Gohan trouble, according to Vegeta
  • Nearly bypass Gohan's senses from a fair distance away which is, once again, indicative of superior speed
  • And, pressure Gohan with his sword who strained himself attempting to resist
Along with that, Goku commented that "He's still got a chance" in the battle, insinuating that Gohan was on the losing end at the moment. He also pointed out that Gohan had used up a lot of stamina during his fight; on the other hand, Dabura was completely unfazed.

Anyway, Dabura's goals during the battle were to collect energy for Babidi. While he was heading back into the spaceship to watch Babidi control Vegeta, he dismissed Gohan as though we was insignificant to him, and when the two of them met once again without any restrictions, Dabura was confident he could easily dispose of Gohan.

"But, he ducked out of the way when Gohan fired his Kamehameha at Buu's egg."
  1. Gohan unleashed his rage -- still not a Super Saiyan 2 though -- and powered up before unleashing his Kamehameha.
  2. Dabura ducked out of the way to protect Babidi.
So, yes, Dabura is stronger than Gohan.

Perfect Cell = Dabura >>> 18 y/o SSJ Gohan = 11 y/o SSJ Gohan. Seems pretty consistent, right?


Lastly, Gohan could not become a Super Saiyan 2 after the match with Kibito, or at the very least chose not to.

First off, Gohan does not look the part of a Super Saiyan 2. Toriyama is a pretty consistent guy in regards to his artwork. During the match with Kibito, Gohan was drawn with his typical serious face, ultra-spiky hair, golden -- this is very important -- energy, and bio-electric aura. When Goku and Vegeta battle each other as ascended Super Saiyans, they are consistently drawn with those features throughout the entire fight, even when they are not actively battling each other. And, when Vegeta transforms during the final battle against Kid Buu, he also exhibits these features. On the contrary, Gohan, along with the rest of the standard Super Saiyan users (i.e., Goku, Vegeta, Goten and Trunks, Gotenks, Vegito) exhibit the standard Super Saiyan traits when they transform:
  • Moderately floaty and spiky hair
  • Blue eyes
  • Typical aura; as in, without electricity
  • And, white energy
The color of the aura of a Super Saiyan in the manga is white, both in the original publications and the Full Color. When they power up to unleash a Super Attack or something of that caliber, their aura becomes golden, but in any other case, it is pure white - it looks nice.

And, guess what-

"What about his bangs? They looked differently during the fight with Dabura than they usually do as a Super Saiyan." His hair does this weird thing where his front-most bang warps from what it was at the beginning of the story to what it looked like when he was a Super Saiyan 2, so this counter is moot.

Second off, Gohan, in-universe, is incapable of becoming a Super Saiyan 2 during that battle -- he cannot get it to stand.

Goku tells Gohan to get angry and bring out all the power he has, reminding him of his fight with Cell and how he would be unstoppable if he did so. Gohan was angry in his previous fight with Dabura, and everybody could see that. So, why would he tell him that if he were to get angry like he did in the Cell Games, he would unstoppable? If Gohan truly were already a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, then this comment would be irrelevant. Later during his second encounter with Dabura, Gohan remembers Goku's words but then states that he is not angry enough to become what he was in the Cell Games, a Super Saiyan 2. One of you might be quick to add that, "This is referencing the fact that he is not as strong as he was before".

What?

Goku tells Gohan to get angry again in hopes that he would become a Super Saiyan 2 and clean house. Gohan states that he cannot get as angry as he did against Cell and thus, cannot become a Super Saiyan 2 again; consequently, he cannot become strong enough to destroy the opposition. And, remember, even if he only had a fraction of his power as a Super Saiyan 2, he could still wipe them, considering the difference between him and Super Perfect Cell even with less than half of his full power available. This has nothing to do with his Super Saiyan 2 being weaker than before. He just cannot transform.

On top of that, at that time, the idea of being able to use all of his power in general against Buu was a hypothetical/best case scenario to Gohan, and he did not even consider trying to use Super Saiyan 2 to draw the Z-Sword out of the ground -- white energy and standard aura.

He did not choose to attempt to use Super Saiyan 2 -- he knew his efforts would be useless.
He could not use Super Saiyan 2.
He was not in Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.

Lastly, and I cannot believe I completely overlooked this until I was finished writing this post, but Gohan was rational and had a clear mind during his fight with Dabura and afterwards. If you all remember, in Super Saiyan 2, Gohan reverted to the savage and irrational ways of an ordinary Super Saiyan, as he was consumed by wrath and malice. He and Goku overcame this emotional turmoil as Super Saiyans, but Gohan has yet to actually control Super Saiyan 2 like that. He was arrogant, snarky, and overly cruel as opposed to his typical pacifistic nature. Here, Gohan was just writing to defend his people, and he was nothing like his preteen self against Cell.


In conclusion:
  • Gohan was not in Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura
  • Dabura was stronger than Gohan
  • Gohan did not become weaker between the Cell Games and Majin Buu Conflict
Super Perfect Cell >>>>>> Perfect Cell = Dabura >>> 18 y/o SSJ Gohan = 11 y/o SSJ Gohan.
Are you happy?
Click to expand...
Null over here droppin' bars on us.
 
Null seems to have brought up a long of strong points; I also retracted what I said about the hair style; as quite frankly; Adult Gohan's SSJ1 and SSJ2 actually look very similar with the whole standing up with one bang. Which is more or less how even his normal hair style is; meaning the color and the aura are really the only major differences where SSJ1 is a bit brighter and lacks the electric zaps. So it appears he didn't even use his SSJ2 form against Dabura. I've always honestly have conflicted thoughts about Buu's half Saiyans tiers due to Supreme Kai being far above Piccolo yet below Gohan. Though Gohan surpassing Supreme Kai might be due to a Zenkai boost he got from Innocent Buu if anything.

Though, the Kaizenshuu seems to be the first thing to say he hasn't gotten weaker as opposed to him just being out of practice and unwilling to fight at full strength. But another loophole is him being unable to go SSJ2. Didn't Kabito heal him though?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Didn't Kabito heal him though?
Click to expand...
He was restored to a "eh, good enough" level of power; Kibito was incapable of restoring him to full power. But, he was not tapped out of Super Saiyan 2 due to any stamina issues or something like that. He needed sufficient anger to tap into the form, and he simply could not draw that out at the time.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Firstly, Gohan is not weaker.

According to the Daizenshuu 2, Gohan never grew or slumped in power over the years. This is important, because if he were in Super Saiyan 2, even with a fraction of his power, he would have absolutely dogged on Dabura, regardless of whether he scaled to Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell -- especially if the former.

"But, Vegeta said Gohan was weaker than he was as a kid." Vegeta only began to truly acknowledge Gohan's power once he ascended and became a Super Saiyan 2. Narratively speaking, the logical conclusion would be that Vegeta was commenting on the fact he was not using Super Saiyan 2.

"Vegeta said that Gohan looked out of shape after encountering him during the peacetime." Looked. And, he only took one look at him. Also, this comment in of itself does not mean much. Also, Gohan is not out of shape. He has maintained his muscular build since childhood and has a healthy diet.

"Gohan stated that his senses had dulled throughout the years." This has nothing to do with his power. Your combat instincts are naturally dampened when you are disengaged from combat for seven years. If you had not had the feel of combat in years, you cannot just jump back in without refreshing yourself.


Secondly, please stop saying Gohan and Dabura are equals.

Dabura was clearly not trying during their battle, and in spite of that, he could:
  • Take a barrage of punches from Gohan without budging; Gohan eventually broke his guard, but Dabura was relatively unharmed
  • Completely outmaneuver Gohan and fool him with an afterimage which is indicative of superior speed
  • Blast Gohan into a river and leave him flustered
  • Give Gohan trouble, according to Vegeta
  • Nearly bypass Gohan's senses from a fair distance away which is, once again, indicative of superior speed
  • And, pressure Gohan with his sword who strained himself attempting to resist
Along with that, Goku commented that "He's still got a chance" in the battle, insinuating that Gohan was on the losing end at the moment. He also pointed out that Gohan had used up a lot of stamina during his fight; on the other hand, Dabura was completely unfazed.

Anyway, Dabura's goals during the battle were to collect energy for Babidi. While he was heading back into the spaceship to watch Babidi control Vegeta, he dismissed Gohan as though we was insignificant to him, and when the two of them met once again without any restrictions, Dabura was confident he could easily dispose of Gohan.

"But, he ducked out of the way when Gohan fired his Kamehameha at Buu's egg."
  1. Gohan unleashed his rage -- still not a Super Saiyan 2 though -- and powered up before unleashing his Kamehameha.
  2. Dabura ducked out of the way to protect Babidi.
So, yes, Dabura is stronger than Gohan.

Perfect Cell = Dabura >>> 18 y/o SSJ Gohan = 11 y/o SSJ Gohan. Seems pretty consistent, right?


Lastly, Gohan could not become a Super Saiyan 2 after the match with Kibito, or at the very least chose not to.

First off, Gohan does not look the part of a Super Saiyan 2. Toriyama is a pretty consistent guy in regards to his artwork. During the match with Kibito, Gohan was drawn with his typical serious face, ultra-spiky hair, golden -- this is very important -- energy, and bio-electric aura. When Goku and Vegeta battle each other as ascended Super Saiyans, they are consistently drawn with those features throughout the entire fight, even when they are not actively battling each other. And, when Vegeta transforms during the final battle against Kid Buu, he also exhibits these features. On the contrary, Gohan, along with the rest of the standard Super Saiyan users (i.e., Goku, Vegeta, Goten and Trunks, Gotenks, Vegito) exhibit the standard Super Saiyan traits when they transform:
  • Moderately floaty and spiky hair
  • Blue eyes
  • Typical aura; as in, without electricity
  • And, white energy
The color of the aura of a Super Saiyan in the manga is white, both in the original publications and the Full Color. When they power up to unleash a Super Attack or something of that caliber, their aura becomes golden, but in any other case, it is pure white - it looks nice.

And, guess what-

"What about his bangs? They looked differently during the fight with Dabura than they usually do as a Super Saiyan." His hair does this weird thing where his front-most bang warps from what it was at the beginning of the story to what it looked like when he was a Super Saiyan 2, so this counter is moot.

Second off, Gohan, in-universe, is incapable of becoming a Super Saiyan 2 during that battle -- he cannot get it to stand.

Goku tells Gohan to get angry and bring out all the power he has, reminding him of his fight with Cell and how he would be unstoppable if he did so. Gohan was angry in his previous fight with Dabura, and everybody could see that. So, why would he tell him that if he were to get angry like he did in the Cell Games, he would unstoppable? If Gohan truly were already a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, then this comment would be irrelevant. Later during his second encounter with Dabura, Gohan remembers Goku's words but then states that he is not angry enough to become what he was in the Cell Games, a Super Saiyan 2. One of you might be quick to add that, "This is referencing the fact that he is not as strong as he was before".

What?

Goku tells Gohan to get angry again in hopes that he would become a Super Saiyan 2 and clean house. Gohan states that he cannot get as angry as he did against Cell and thus, cannot become a Super Saiyan 2 again; consequently, he cannot become strong enough to destroy the opposition. And, remember, even if he only had a fraction of his power as a Super Saiyan 2, he could still wipe them, considering the difference between him and Super Perfect Cell even with less than half of his full power available. This has nothing to do with his Super Saiyan 2 being weaker than before. He just cannot transform.

On top of that, at that time, the idea of being able to use all of his power in general against Buu was a hypothetical/best case scenario to Gohan, and he did not even consider trying to use Super Saiyan 2 to draw the Z-Sword out of the ground -- white energy and standard aura.

He did not choose to attempt to use Super Saiyan 2 -- he knew his efforts would be useless.
He could not use Super Saiyan 2.
He was not in Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.

Lastly, and I cannot believe I completely overlooked this until I was finished writing this post, but Gohan was rational and had a clear mind during his fight with Dabura and afterwards. If you all remember, in Super Saiyan 2, Gohan reverted to the savage and irrational ways of an ordinary Super Saiyan, as he was consumed by wrath and malice. He and Goku overcame this emotional turmoil as Super Saiyans, but Gohan has yet to actually control Super Saiyan 2 like that. He was arrogant, snarky, and overly cruel as opposed to his typical pacifistic nature. Here, Gohan was just writing to defend his people, and he was nothing like his preteen self against Cell.


In conclusion:
  • Gohan was not in Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura
  • Dabura was stronger than Gohan
  • Gohan did not become weaker between the Cell Games and Majin Buu Conflict
Super Perfect Cell >>>>>> Perfect Cell = Dabura >>> 18 y/o SSJ Gohan = 11 y/o SSJ Gohan.
Are you happy?
Click to expand...
Absolute legendary clapback.

Also not sure if this counts but basically almost all external material said that Adult Gohan only used SS2 in the Tournament and never again, nobody knows why.

So there.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Firstly, Gohan is not weaker.

According to the Daizenshuu 2, Gohan never grew or slumped in power over the years. This is important, because if he were in Super Saiyan 2, even with a fraction of his power, he would have absolutely dogged on Dabura, regardless of whether he scaled to Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell -- especially if the former.
Click to expand...
With that in mind, PC was comparable to SS Gohan during the Cell Games when he was suppressed. Meaning PC at full power was much stronger than SS Gohan. If Dabura = PC then he should have stomped SS Gohan with ease.

Nullflowerblush said:
Along with that, Goku commented that "He's still got a chance" in the battle, insinuating that Gohan was on the losing end at the moment. He also pointed out that Gohan had used up a lot of stamina during his fight; on the other hand, Dabura was completely unfazed.
Click to expand...
Babadi also points out that Dabura needs to damage him more. So his master seemed to think he wasn't doing enough to win the fight either. Why didn't Dabura just injure him more like Babadi wanted?

Nullflowerblush said:
Anyway, Dabura's goals during the battle were to collect energy for Babidi. While he was heading back into the spaceship to watch Babidi control Vegeta, he dismissed Gohan as though we was insignificant to him, and when the two of them met once again without any restrictions, Dabura was confident he could easily dispose of Gohan.
Click to expand...
Babadi however was not so confident. He asked Dabura if he could beat him to make sure. Dabura could have just been cocky.

Nullflowerblush said:
Perfect Cell = Dabura >>> 18 y/o SSJ Gohan = 11 y/o SSJ Gohan. Seems pretty consistent, right?
Click to expand...
If Buu Saga SS Gohan = CG SS Gohan in power, then how did he damage Dabura? Dabura = PC >>> Suppressed PC who SS Gohan was comparable to. Dabura should have squashed him then. Yet Babadi yelled at him for not doing enough damage.

Nullflowerblush said:
Lastly, Gohan could not become a Super Saiyan 2 after the match with Kibito, or at the very least chose not to.

Second off, Gohan, in-universe, is incapable of becoming a Super Saiyan 2 during that battle -- he cannot get it to stand.

Goku tells Gohan to get angry and bring out all the power he has, reminding him of his fight with Cell and how he would be unstoppable if he did so. Gohan was angry in his previous fight with Dabura, and everybody could see that. So, why would he tell him that if he were to get angry like he did in the Cell Games, he would unstoppable? If Gohan truly were already a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, then this comment would be irrelevant. Later during his second encounter with Dabura, Gohan remembers Goku's words but then states that he is not angry enough to become what he was in the Cell Games, a Super Saiyan 2. One of you might be quick to add that, "This is referencing the fact that he is not as strong as he was before".
Click to expand...
Gohan was able to become a SS2 against Kibito with no problem and without out being super mad. Why wouldn't he be able to do so again? Doesn't make sense.

In universe, Gohan due to scaling below Full Power Perfect Cell, should be incapable of damaging Dabura.

I see no reason Goku's line shouldn't be taken literally. Goku was just talking about him getting angry, not becoming a SS2. When referencing transformations, characters seem to call it a transformation or by its own name.

Goku also told Gohan to get angry after he was already a SS2 and to use more power. If he was referencing SS2, why would Goku say this when Gohan was already a SS2? He was talking about Gohan's anger, not SS2.

Nullflowerblush said:
In conclusion:
  • Gohan was not in Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura
  • Dabura was stronger than Gohan
  • Gohan did not become weaker between the Cell Games and Majin Buu Conflict
Super Perfect Cell >>>>>> Perfect Cell = Dabura >>> 18 y/o SSJ Gohan = 11 y/o SSJ Gohan.
Are you happy?
Click to expand...
If Gohan was not a SS2, then he should have lost with ease. FP PC >>> SS Gohan.

If he was, it wasn't by much. Vegeta said he thought Gohan should have trouble with Dabura but not that much trouble defeating him. Vegeta seemed to imply Gohan should have won without too much difficulty.

Then he would still scale below PC at full power.

SPC >>> Full Power PC = Dabura >>> Suppressed PC = SS Gohan

If Gohan = his CG self then he is still weaker than PC at full power. Dabura not beating him makes no sense. More so, when Babadi was complaining about him not damaging him more. Character statements make it pretty clear that Gohan was to be treated as having got weaker. Which makes your argument even worse.
 
Okay. I will close this thread then.
 
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