Dabura scaled up to SPC instead of PC.

[FluffyCreatureZ]

This isn't true, Gohan was in SSJ2, he was using all his power and still couldn't win. Goku and vegeta were clowning on him because he wasn't winning. If he wasn't in SSJ2 then goku and vegeta would've yelled at him to transform and SSJ2 is always drawn inconsistently when the hair style for the character looks the same in ssj1 and 2.

 

[BlastX]

He didn't have the lightning and Toriyama is pretty consistent with the lightning.

And maybe he flat out had trouble using it, despite him being healed with Kibito he still wasn't at %100, also maybe going SS2 isn't as easy for him anymore.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

For some reason, after the World Martial Arts Tournament, Gohan could not find himself transforming into a Super Saiyan 2. Even in the confrontation with Buu, he unleashed his anger and attempted to destroy the Egg, but was still in Super Saiyan; Gohan even acknowledged the fact that he could not tap back into a Super Saiyan 2.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

maybe going SS2 isn't as easy for him anymore.

It wouldn't be the only time he's had trouble using a Super Saiyan state after not training.

 

[RisingIons]

Thinking about Gohan’s abilities, he casually hit PC so hard he reverted forms. Even if he got weaker I’m convinced if Dabura was PC level, he’d still have an advantage, just not an outright stomp. SPC makes sense if Gohan was completely ineffective against Dabura.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

For some reason, after the World Martial Arts Tournament, Gohan could not find himself transforming into a Super Saiyan 2. Even in the confrontation with Buu, he unleashed his anger and attempted to destroy the Egg, but was still in Super Saiyan; Gohan even acknowledged the fact that he could not tap back into a Super Saiyan 2.

That's pretty convincing. I though there was no lightning because SSJ2 is always inconsistent like that. But it's weird that he did it at the tournament but couldn't later.

 

[RisingIons]

That's pretty convincing. I though there was no lightning because SSJ2 is always inconsistent like that. But it's weird that he did it at the tournament but couldn't later.

I’m almost certain that’s a drawing of SS2. Also “I can’t be like the way I was back then” sounds like he’s speaking of his incredible rage, given the last panel.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I’m almost certain that’s a drawing of SS2. Also “I can’t be like the way I was back then” sounds like he’s speaking of his incredible rage, given the last panel.

I know right? I though that too, he could just be speaking about his power when he was a kid not just SSJ2, and he LOOKS like a SSJ2.

 

[RisingIons]

Goku spent much time convincing Gohan to stop being doubtful and to release his anger. Even with all of that it was useless until 16 died. He says “I am angry, but still”, which is almost the exact same scenario. He’s angry, but not to the extent that he’s going to achieve the same rage boost that he did against Cell, something we come close to seeing when he’s forced to watch Videl get destroyed.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Goku spent much time convincing Gohan to stop being doubtful and to release his anger. Even with all of that it was useless until 16 died. He says “I am angry, but still”, which is almost the exact same scenario. He’s angry, but not to the extent that he’s going to achieve the same rage boost that he did against Cell, something we come close to seeing when he’s forced to watch Videl get destroyed.

But you know? Vegeta was still clowning on him when he turned SSJ2 at the tournament.

 

[RisingIons]

Because he was slacking.

 

[WarriorofMite]

Bump

 

[AwkguyDB]

You cannot just return to 100% after being handicapped with an injury, unless Gohan healed himself in that scene.

Tournament of Power Goku and Vegeta would like to say hello

 

[AwkguyDB]

Also I know in the anime when Gohan fought Dabura he did indeed go SSJ2. But I would have to take a gander at the manga cuz it looks like he goes SSJ2 there

 

[AwkguyDB]

For some reason, after the World Martial Arts Tournament, Gohan could not find himself transforming into a Super Saiyan 2. Even in the confrontation with Buu, he unleashed his anger and attempted to destroy the Egg, but was still in Super Saiyan; Gohan even acknowledged the fact that he could not tap back into a Super Saiyan 2.

Also do you have a link to the manga with that quality and official translation

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Also do you have a link to the manga with that quality and official translation

I read it on Mangasee.

 

[ApeXeno]

Alright so here's a comparison between Super Saiyan Gohan and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

I know this seems oddly specific, but Super Saiyan seems to have an extra small hair in the front whereas Super Saiyan 2 removes that.
In the Dabura fight, it doesn't seem like he has the extra hair, meaning he should be in Super Saiyan 2?
But again, after that fight apparently he couldn't go Super Saiyan 2 and like Null said, he acknowledges that he can't do it anymore.
But then again, maybe they're talking about the rage power of Super Saiyan 2 and not the transformation since he can clearly do it in the Tenkaichi Budokai.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

In the Dabura fight, it doesn't seem like he has the extra hair, meaning he should be in Super Saiyan 2?

To be fair, Gohan's hair has changed quite a bit since the beginning of the Majin Buu Conflict.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Daizenshuu verbatim says he fought Super Saiyan 2 Gohan:

Him "not being able to get to the power he could before" would just mean Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan > Boo Saga SSJ2 Gohan, not that he can't use SSJ2.

 

[ApeXeno]

Yeah that's fair.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Strangely enough, outside of this one instance, Gohan is never referred to as a Super Saiyan 2 outside of the demonstration for Kibito. Even the Daizenshuu in its Growing Up section, adolescent Gohan is only ever referred to as a Super Saiyan 2 at the tournament. Even went and checked the El Manga Legendario (which states that Dabura is comparable to Cell in his "Perfect Form", but never mentions his super-powered revival), and he is only ever referred to as a Super Saiyan 2 in the tournament.

The El Manga Legendario even goes so far as to state that Dabura would have been powerless against Goku's group as Super Saiyan 2s.

This also coincides with the fact that, in spite of Toriyama's rather consistent portrayal of Super Saiyan 2, Gohan was not depicted with the hallmark traits of Super Saiyan 2 (i.e., a CONSTANT electric cloak—really, every Super Saiyan 2 appearance in the manga has an electric cloak, even when they are simply standing without flaring their power—and a constant golden aura; the difference between a Super Saiyan's aura and a Super Saiyan 2's aura is their composition, with Super Saiyans having a pure, white aura unless they are powering up, whereas Super Saiyan 2s constantly have a white aura with a golden outline), which he previously displayed at the tournament where he explicitly ascended.

On top of that, once again, Toriyama went out of his way to explicitly handicap Gohan and state that he could not draw out Super Saiyan 2 in the confrontation with Dabura because of his lack of anger.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Strangely enough, outside of this one instance, Gohan is never referred to as a Super Saiyan 2 outside of the demonstration for Kibito.

It's still a blatant statement for him being in SSJ2. It's not contradicted, so I see no reason not to use it. It not being stated multiple times doesn't mean it's contradicted either.

Even the Daizenshuu in its Growing Up section, adolescent Gohan is only ever referred to as a Super Saiyan 2 at the tournament. Even went and checked the El Manga Legendario (which states that Dabura is comparable to Cell in his "Perfect Form", but never mentions his super-powered revival), and he is only ever referred to as a Super Saiyan 2 in the tournament.

Probably because EML never calls him Super Perfect Cell. Like, you can check any page about Cell's return, they mention no new form name. The manga never calls him "Super Perfect" either, it's just something said in the anime that was later made popular by the video games. As far as the manga-continuity is concerned, that Cell is just "post-Zenkai Perfect Cell". Considering he was the most recent Cell and still was Perfect Cell, it only makes sense to be in reference to him.

Also, here's another scan from EML:

The abilities of Kaio Shin. Regardless of hiding, not showing his full strength when they met, Goku suspected that he wasn't just your common, everyday guy. Although he has some abilities that are from common, it doesn't look like it exceeds (is greater) than the strength in combat/combat power of the super saiyans. By looking at the precautions that are taken with Dabra, at a level similar to [that of] Cell, it can be deduced/assumed that he has the same strength as Goku during the Cell Game. Later on, his power increases by fusing with Kibito, but not even doing that could he fight against Bu with guarantees/certainty.(edited)

So, it says Cell = Dabura once again. However, the context includes Shin's precautions against Dabura.
Shin was scared of Dabura, and chose Bobbidi instead, leaving Dabra for Gohan to fight. Goku viewed Perfect Cell more like a rival, and was even willing to fight him again with a senzu. He was even willing to give Perfect Cell a senzu, but was telling Gohan to take the cheapshot against SPC.
Basically, EML is saying Shin had the same attitude that Goku had against Cell, so they should be equal since Dabura and Cell are equal. Since Goku's attitude against Perfect Cell was different from Shin to Dabura, and he was in-favor of cheap-shots against SPC rather than a fair fight like against PC, context here implies it's referring to Super Perfect Cell. Though even if this is seen as a reach, my previous reasoning for it being in reference to SPC should still stand.

The El Manga Legendario even goes so far as to state that Dabura would have been powerless against Goku's group as Super Saiyan 2s.

That's in reference to his group in general, not just Gohan. Considering Vegeta states SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Games, who in turn is more powerful than Boo Saga SSJ2 Gohan, it's fine for Dabura to be weaker than the group as a whole while still being relative to SSJ2 Gohan.

Also, had there not been a blatant statement of Gohan being in SSJ2, I'd accept the argument about him not looking like SSJ2. However, with a blatant statement like there is, that pretty much goes out the window.

On top of that, once again, Toriyama went out of his way to explicitly handicap Gohan and state that he could not draw out Super Saiyan 2 in the confrontation with Dabura because of his lack of anger.

"The way I was then" is not in reference to Super Saiyan 2, but specifically his power level against Cell. Even when he uses SSJ2 in the World Tournament, Vegeta says he was better against Cell, so my interpretation is still consistent with what's been established in the story.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I think it doesn't matter for the scaling at all whether dabura scales to PC or SPC. It will just effect SSJ2 adult gohan and dabura, the rest stay the same. I believe that gohan was SSJ2 in that fight, I think it's better if dabura is scaled to SPC because SSJ2 Gohan will then be half as strong as he was as a kid (this also proves that gohan was in SSJ2 in that fight because if he was a SSJ and dabura = SPC then gohan gets stomped) and the reason for why I think it's true is because there is no real difference in names when referring to PC or SPC in the manga they're both just perfect cell, and it wouldn't make sense if goku is comparing dabura to a weaker cell if he thinks it's impressive.

 

[RisingIons]

Yes, "Gohan back then" is just Gohan who regularly trained + a massive rage boost, hence his comment about him being angry, but not like back then.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Goku viewed Perfect Cell more like a rival

Goku viewed a heavily suppressed Perfect Cell as a rival.
Remember, Cell only unleashed his full power once Gohan had him on the ropes, a power that shook the planet, and terrified the Z-Fighters, including Goku.

and was even willing to fight him again with a senzu

This is wrong, and I will prove why.

He was even willing to give Perfect Cell a senzu

I have proved why.
And, he gave Cell a Senzu Bean so that he would be recovered and powerful enough to push Gohan to breaking his limits.
You're probably one of those "Goku is a bad dad" kinda guys, aren'tcha?

but was telling Gohan to take the cheapshot against SPC.

Is this, like, a Gohan antifeat or something? What are you trying to prove with this?
This happened, too.

Okay, so...

Shin was scared of Dabura

Shin was weary of Dabura, yes, having known of his power before and after being taken over by Babidi. He was also aware of his Stone Spit and how dangerous that ability was. Shin was not scared, though, at least not scared shitless like the Z-Fighters were when Cell unleashed his full power.

The precautions that Shin took were: avoid direct confrontation and avoid his saliva, allowing the stronger Z-Fighters to take him on. Coincidentally, Goku stepped back once he realized that he could not defeat Cell himself and let the stronger Z-Fighter, Gohan, take him on. Are you seeing the trend here?

Shin and Goku, who're comparable, reacted in very similar ways to these opponents, who coincidentally happen to be comparable in power.
That's weeird, innit?

and chose Bobbidi instead

Shin chose Babidi because:

1. He was the one in control of Buu, and preventing Buu's resurrection was their top priority. This was even stated in a previous chapter (DBZ 252).
2. Shin has sorcery, Babidi has sorcery, but Gohan does not.
3. Shin is not an idiot. He was not terrified of Dabura in that instance, he was cautious. He made the smart decision not to take on a titan. Y'know, funnily enough, Goku also had Gohan take on a stronger enemy (Cell), because he knew that he could not take him on himself.

leaving Dabra for Gohan to fight.

On both occasions, Gohan willingly took on Dabura.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Goku viewed a heavily suppressed Perfect Cell as a rival.
Remember, Cell only unleashed his full power once Gohan had him on the ropes, a power that shook the planet, and terrified the Z-Fighters, including Goku.

My point isn't that Goku ~ Perfect Cell, but that Goku's attitude towards SPC was closer to Shin's attitude to Dabura, rather than his attitude to PC.

This is wrong, and I will prove why.

I have proved why.

Uh, are you trying to suggest the Senzu Goku asked Kurirn for was the one he gave to Cell? Let's look at this scan again:

-Piccolo is telling Goku that he made the wrong choice by letting Gohan fight Cell.
-Cell is beating up Gohan

So, this is clearly after the fight had started. Goku gave Cell the senzu right when the fight started. Unless you're trying to say Goku saw Gohan getting beat up and decided "hey, I should give Cell another senzu now that he's beating up Gohan", but I doubt you are.

And, he gave Cell a Senzu Bean so that he would be recovered and powerful enough to push Gohan to breaking his limits.
You're probably one of those "Goku is a bad dad" kinda guys, aren'tcha?

Yeah, I agree he gave him the Senzu for that, but he also did it to make it a fair fight:

Also, I think Goku is a fine dad.

Is this, like, a Gohan antifeat or something? What are you trying to prove with this?

That Goku was fine with having a fair fight against PC, but not against SPC, meaning his attitude towards SPC matches Shin's towards Dabura more than his with PC.
Also, I think Gohan didn't need the cheap-shot, but it's not super important so I won't explain it right now.

This happened, too.

That's more of him being worried about how Gohan is acting than Cell's power.

Okay, so...

Shin was weary of Dabura, yes, having known of his power before and after being taken over by Babidi. He was also aware of his Stone Spit and how dangerous that ability was. Shin was not scared, though, at least not scared shitless like the Z-Fighters were when Cell unleashed his full power.

I don't really see where they're scared shitless due to Cell's power. I already explained the one of them, and the other is due to Cell going at an angle that would put the Earth at risk.
Also, Shin was even scared of Yakon, someone way weaker than Dabra. Quite different how Goku didn't even go all out against Cell from the get-go, while Shin thought multiple people would have to fight someone weaker than Dabra at the same time, wouldn't you say?

The precautions that Shin took were: avoid direct confrontation and avoid his saliva, allowing the stronger Z-Fighters to take him on. Coincidentally, Goku stepped back once he realized that he could not defeat Cell himself and let the stronger Z-Fighter, Gohan, take him on. Are you seeing the trend here?

And again, Goku asked Kuririn for a senzu and was willing to jump back into the fight.

Shin chose Babidi because:

1. He was the one in control of Buu, and preventing Buu's resurrection was their top priority. This was even stated in a previous chapter (DBZ 252).
2. Shin has sorcery, Babidi has sorcery, but Gohan does not.

Considering Piccolo's performance, Gohan would've done fine, if not better than Shin.

On both occasions, Gohan willingly took on Dabura.

My point isn't about Gohan's attitude towards Dabura, but Shin's, so I don't see why this is relevant.

You also haven't countered me saying SPC is never referred to as that in the Manga or EML, nor has anyone addressed what I previously said in the thread:

Plus, Daizenshuu, which confirms Goku's statement, refers to Super Perfect Cell as Perfect Cell many times.

Considering SPC isn't a proper form and just post-Zenkai Perfect, it doesn't make sense for it to be in reference to a past version of the same form.

 

[BetterThanYou]

Guys, SPC is just a fan-made term. The real terms that you people are looking for are "Perfect Cell" and "Perfect Cell(Zenkai)".

 

[RisingIons]

So what’s the arguments so far?

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

So what’s the arguments so far?

I believe:

Cell:
-The statements say that say they're relative say "Perfect Cell" instead of "Super Perfect Cell"
-Dabura struggled against a weaker Gohan
-The EML statement + arguing Goku's attitude towards Perfect Cell was the same as Shin's towards Dabura

Dabura:
-"SPC" is just Post-Zenkai Perfect, and the only logical thing would be to refer to the most recent version
-Cell was weaker than Gohan anyways, so that scale doesn't matter
-The EML statement + arguing Goku's attitude towards SPC was the same as Shin's towards Dabura

Though I was only really paying attention to this thread for the past 2 days or so, so I could be forgetting something.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

For 4-B Dabura:

• The Daizenshuu 7's Character Dictionary entry for Dabura states that he fought against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.
• Super Perfect Cell is simply referred to as Perfect Cell after his resurrection in the databooks.
• Shin is comparable to Cell Games Goku, and is weary of Dabura's power, the same attitude Goku arguably held towards Super Perfect Cell.
  • To add onto this, Goku told Gohan to unleash his full power and destroy Cell after Vegeta distracted Cell.
    • The counterargument is that this was the only opening for Gohan, and Goku knew this. Gohan would have no other chance to unleash his full power and instantly wipe out Cell. They had no time to waste, otherwise they would continue to clash and damage the planet, something Gohan was afraid of to the point that he subconsciously suppressed his power. They would need the opportunity to take Cell out in one go.

Against 4-B Dabura:

• Gohan's design does not match that of a Super Saiyan 2, despite Toriyama's terrifyingly consistent portrayal of the form.
• Gohan comments that he is not able to muster up the anger to unleash Super Saiyan 2 anymore.
  • The counterargument is that Gohan was simply stating that he could not reach the same level of power as he could during the Cell Games.
• The databooks, especially the Daizenshuu, typically reference his resurrection when bringing Super Perfect Cell up.
• Shin is comparable to Cell Games Goku, and is weary of Dabura's power, the same attitude Goku arguably held towards Perfect Cell.
  • To add onto this, Goku and the Z-Fighters were terrified by Perfect Cell at full power, and wanted Gohan to destroy him as quickly as possible, weary of what Cell could pull off and what he could had he been given the opportunity.
• Dabura was being virtually manhandled by a rusty Gohan.
  • The counterargument is, of course, Cell was weaker than Gohan, too, so this does not matter.
    • Until you remember that Cell actually held his own against a suppressed Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in the Cell Games.
• kinda strange how the guy who is equal to cell games goku is capable of restraining a supposedly 4-b gohan

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Well actually, it's more accurately "For Dabura scaling to Cell" and "Against Dabura scaling to Cell".

 

[BlastX]

Were did Gohan manhandle Dabura? He got a couple of good hits at the start and then struggled for most of the fight while Dabura wasn't even out of breath, then after that Dabura still saw Gohan as a non threat.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

You're right. However, Dabura only got one hit in while he was off-guard, which Gohan quickly recovered from, so they were not exactly on equal grounds in that fight.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Well, another thing that should be kept in mind is Dabura's purpose in that fight: to build up power to unleash Boo. If he just stomped Gohan and ended the fight quickly, he would barely progress the goal. This is further shown to be his intention when he interrupts it at the sight of Vegeta, who could be a better advancement in the plan of unleashing Fat Boo. Dabura even later says due to his previous fight, he thinks he'll win now. While I don't think Dabura should be taken 100% seriously, as he is a villain, he wouldn't treat a fairly even fight as an explanation for an easy win, so that makes it more likely he was holding back.

 

[ApeXeno]

I really don't see how Dabura wouldn't be upgraded. We just need people to see.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I support dabura scaling to super perfect cell.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Also, just to elaborate further on my Gohan comment argument:

Goku tells Gohan to get angry and bring out all the power he has, reminding him of his fight with Cell and how he would be unstoppable if he did so.

Gohan was angry in his previous fight with Dabura, and everybody could see that. So, why would he tell him that if he were to get angry like he did in the Cell Games, he would unstoppable? If Gohan truly were already a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, then this comment would be irrelevant.

Gohan remembers Goku's words but then states that he is not angry enough to become what he was in the Cell Games, a Super Saiyan 2.

"I can't be the way I was then", combined with the previous context of Gohan being unstoppable as a Super Saiyan 2 against points towards Gohan being incapable of reliably returning to that state anymore.

On top of that, the idea of being able to use all of his power against Buu is a hypothetical/best case scenario to Gohan, and he could not even use Super Saiyan 2 to draw the Z-Sword out of the ground.

Also, you have to remember, Gohan's energy was drained to the point he instantly dropped out of Super Saiyan 2 and fell unconscious, and Kibito could not heal him to full power, so during this encounter, Gohan was not even at his maximum capacity; Kibito recovered him to a "yeah, you'll do fine" point.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I dunno why I didn't bring this up before, but Daizenshuu says even the SSJ2 Gohan from the World Tournament wasn't gaining power from anger:

So really, "not being the same power" or "being able to get power like before" is irrelevant to him being Super Saiyan 2. Really all it means is that SSJ2 Teen Gohan > Dabura, so if Dabura gets 4-B, we can add it to Gohan's justification. Also I don't see where the Z Sword scan says he can't use SSJ2?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

BTW gohan used SSJ2 to pull the Z sword in the anime.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Daizenshuu says even the SSJ2 Gohan from the World Tournament wasn't gaining power from anger

Actually, it said he couldn't, hence why he was so weak; weak enough for Shin to restrain him, albeit with a struggle. Shin even pointed out that he was not going at full strength.

BTW gohan used SSJ2 to pull the Z sword in the anime.

The problem with that is we clearly do not see this kind of transformation in the manga, and even then, the electricity was only present while he was transforming and completely disappeared afterwards, so even that argument is shaky.