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Dabura scaled up to SPC instead of PC.

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Nullflowerblush said:
Actually, it said he couldn't, hence why he was so weak; weak enough for Shin to restrain him, albeit with a struggle. Shin even pointed out that he was not going at full strength.
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Gohan was still a SSJ2 in that scene.
Nullflowerblush said:
The problem with that is we clearly do not see this kind of transformation in the manga, and even then, the electricity was only present while he was transforming and completely disappeared afterwards, so even that argument is shaky.
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I guess the animators either messed up by giving him lightning or messed up by not giving him lightning for the entire scene.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Actually, it said he couldn't, hence why he was so weak; weak enough for Shin to restrain him, albeit with a struggle. Shin even pointed out that he was not going at full strength.
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Daizenshuu's statement is more of a general statement on his power, not in the moment. It's just saying in general that Cell Games Gohan > Boo Saga Gohan due to not being able to get power from anger. So, not being able to get power from anger =/= not being able to use SSJ2. Him not being able to use anger to get power probably isn't why Shin was saying he wasn't at full power, it might've been in reference to Shin nerfing him (edit: on a second thought, it seems this was actually what you were referring to him struggling with, so never mind), Gohan simply not using all of his available power, etc.

Also, looking at Kibito healing him, it seems kinda sketchy. If you look at the scan, what he's saying is, "despite him not being at full power, he's still very strong". This doesn't mean he's not going to heal him to full power, just that he's acknowledging what he's already seeing. Before he says "that should do", he says "phew", implying there was a development in the healing he was relieved about. Shin also said Kibito would put him back to normal, which makes sense narratively. Take Vegeta judging Gohan, for example. If Gohan wasn't at full power, why would Vegeta and Goku see it as a useable moment for determining his power?

Edit: Also, does anyone have a counter to my point about Dabura holding back against Gohan?
 
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Nullflowerblush said:
Also, just to elaborate further on my Gohan comment argument:

Goku tells Gohan to get angry and bring out all the power he has, reminding him of his fight with Cell and how he would be unstoppable if he did so.

Gohan was angry in his previous fight with Dabura, and everybody could see that. So, why would he tell him that if he were to get angry like he did in the Cell Games, he would unstoppable? If Gohan truly were already a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, then this comment would be irrelevant.

Gohan remembers Goku's words but then states that he is not angry enough to become what he was in the Cell Games, a Super Saiyan 2.

"I can't be the way I was then", combined with the previous context of Gohan being unstoppable as a Super Saiyan 2 against points towards Gohan being incapable of reliably returning to that state anymore.

On top of that, the idea of being able to use all of his power against Buu is a hypothetical/best case scenario to Gohan, and he could not even use Super Saiyan 2 to draw the Z-Sword out of the ground.

Also, you have to remember, Gohan's energy was drained to the point he instantly dropped out of Super Saiyan 2 and fell unconscious, and Kibito could not heal him to full power, so during this encounter, Gohan was not even at his maximum capacity; Kibito recovered him to a "yeah, you'll do fine" point.
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Actually by that point he got a senzu bean, so the Kibito Point doesn't matter
 
ApeXeno said:
I have a question: Would it matter if Gohan was Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2?
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Yes, if dabura scales to SPC then gohan must be a SSJ2 because if he was a SSJ then it would break the scale. If he was only a SSJ against dabura and dabura is scaled to PC then it also wouldn't make much sense as he'd be comparable to himself as a kid as well.
 
I agree with the upgrade. Like I said before, Gohan simply can't tap into the kind of rage boost that he got from Cell, which is why he's not so strong despite not training.
 
WarriorofMite said:
If Gohan was SS and Dabura was PC level in power: Dabura stomps him.
If Gohan was SS2 and Dabura was PC level in power: Gohan stomps him.
If Gohan was SS and Dabura was SPC level in power: Dabura stomps him.
If Gohan was SS2 and Dabura was SPC level in power: They fight evenly. Which is what happened.
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But what if:

Gohan SS2 fight evenly with Dabura, who's equal to Perfect Cell.

Because Gohan is that weak??
 
Vizer04 said:
But what if:

Gohan SS2 fight evenly with Dabura, who's equal to Perfect Cell.

Because Gohan is that weak??
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I think this would depend a lot on how big you think the gap is between suppressed PC that Goku fought, PC at full power and SPC. Do you think their power on a scale would be suppressed PC is a 1, PC at full power is a 2-3, and SPC is a 5+ or so?
 
Vegeta and Trunks (Cell Games) ≤ Cell Jr. < Goku SSJ (Cell Games) and Perfect Cell (Suppressed) ≤ Gohan SSJ (Cell Games) < Gohan SS2 (estimated power)/Goku SSJ (Buu Saga) < Perfect Cell (Full Power) << Super Perfect Cell ≤ Dabura ≤ Gohan SS2 (Buu Saga) < Vegeta SS2 (Buu Saga) ≤ Gohan SS2 (Cell Games) < Goku and Majin Vegeta SS2
 
Mageman460 said:
The key thing about Vegeta being able to is he didn't have SS2 until he was turned into Majin Vegeta.
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Did he? I thought he unlocked SS2 but was still weaker than Goku, which is why he allowed Babidi to take him over.
 
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I was going to ask. Do I have to do the revision on the page myself or can a mod do it? Also, does a mod need to be paged for this to happen?
 
Dabura level was in between SPC and Adult SSJ2 level

We can't really scale Dabura to SPC, as Gohan was said to be weaker than his Teen self, however by an unknown amount. But again SSJ2 Teen Gohan who vs SPC was already weaken because of a broken arm and spend too much energy after his fight with PC, so prime/fresh SSJ2 Teen Gohan should still somewhat > SPC, not to the point of stomp or oneshot, but still stronger
So it should be like this PC < Dabura =< SPC

So Dabura should be somewhat comparable to SPC (personally i think Dabura just slightly weaker than SPC but vastly stronger than PC)
 
Vietthai96 said:
Dabura level was in between SPC and Adult SSJ2 level

We can't really scale Dabura to SPC, as Gohan was said to be weaker than his Teen self, however by an unknown amount. But again SSJ2 Teen Gohan who vs SPC was already weaken because of a broken arm and spend too much energy after his fight with PC, so prime/fresh SSJ2 Teen Gohan should still somewhat > SPC, not to the point of stomp or oneshot, but still stronger
So it should be like this PC < Dabura =< SPC

So Dabura should be somewhat comparable to SPC (personally i think Dabura just slightly weaker than SPC but vastly stronger than PC)
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Your comment makes no sense. You said dabura was between SPC and adult SSJ2 gohan but at the same time comparable to SPC but you never actually gave any reason to why dabura scales, which is what the post is talking about.
 
Goku SSJ (Cell Games) < Gohan SSJ (Cell Games) ≤ Goku SSJ (Buu Saga) < Perfect Cell (Full Power) << Super Perfect Cell = Dabura ≤ Gohan SS2 (Buu Saga) < Gohan SS2 (Cell Games)

Is this correct?
 
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FluffyCreatureZ said:
Your comment makes no sense. You said dabura was between SPC and adult SSJ2 gohan but at the same time comparable to SPC but you never actually gave any reason to why dabura scales, which is what the post is talking about.
Click to expand...
We can't really scale Dabura to SPC, as Gohan was said to be weaker than his Teen self, however by an unknown amount. But again SSJ2 Teen Gohan who vs SPC was already weaken because of a broken arm and spend too much energy after his fight with PC, so prime/fresh SSJ2 Teen Gohan should still somewhat > SPC, not to the point of stomp or oneshot, but still stronger
So it should be like this PC < Dabura =< SPC
Click to expand...
I question the fact that did you actually read my comment
 
Vizer04 said:
Goku SSJ (Cell Games) < Gohan SSJ (Cell Games) ≤ Goku SSJ (Buu Saga) < Perfect Cell (Full Power) << Super Perfect Cell = Dabura ≤ Gohan SS2 (Buu Saga) < Gohan SS2 (Cell Games)

Is this correct?
Click to expand...
No, if we are ignoring dabura scaling it looks like this, Goku cell games < Gohan cell games < perfect cell < Goku buu saga < SPC < SSJ2 Gohan cell games < SSJ2 Goku buu saga. Dabura would either scale to PC or SPC, adult SSJ2 gohan scales below dabura. Both scaling work now it's just narrative argument.
Vietthai96 said:
I question the fact that did you actually read my comment
Click to expand...
You are scaling SSJ2 Gohan cell saga, which has nothing to do with this. You are scaling dabura to buu saga gohan but that's not correct, we are scaling buu saga gohan to dabura who either scales to PC or SPC, you said he scales to SPC but never said why you just said buu saga SSJ2 gohan < SSJ2 Gohan cell saga.
 
The Daizenshuu states that Gohan at the beginning of the Majin Buu Conflict and Gohan during the Cell Games are equal.

That being said though:
  1. Nothing suggests Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2. If he was a Super Saiyan during that fight, it would be obvious.
  2. Dabura was toying with Gohan during that fight. When they encountered each other again, Dabura revealed he was testing Gohan and was confident he could defeat him.
 
1. The thing suggest Gohan was SSJ2 was the sparks and a define hair (in SSJ1 he should still have 1 strain hair in front)
2. Despite the Daizenshuu statement, Vegeta said otherwise both in anime and manga
 
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