• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

D&D AP CRT and other fun acronyms.

Peer means equal or comparable. And she might be slighty stronger but not infinitely so. So Serpent would scale to whatever tier she ends up at in unrestricted.
 
Well, I don't think he'd scale to her Unrestricted form, as her feat of resetting all of Creation was in her Restricted form. So he'd at least scale to her Restricted form.
 
I don't think that's affecting the far realm. So 1-A is a no. However, the vortex thing is a possible one, so possibly High 1-B I am fine with.
 
Well it does say:" Realms near and Far" and the Far realm has been established by this point in the lore, I'm not saying it's a comfirmation, but it's a possibility.
 
So what are the TLDR conclusions here?
 
OP thing is already settled. They're trying to iron out if the LOP is tier 1.

> which is above every single Deity and Immortal ever shown

I don't think her restricted form is stated to be above Immortals. Considering there's likely some Greater Gods that can at least withstand her power high level Immortals probably can as well. The most her true form has to offer is being able to destroy the normal multiverse on accident, which would only be a 5D feat.

> Also, the Lady might have affected the Far realm:

That's just a thing to explain new areas/planes that come up in 3e. Plus Far Realm is typically capitalized

> Reasoning for 6-D is she may be above the Serpent and she was able to affect all creation when she repaired the Multiverse.

As mentioned before, all of creation could just be the first five dimensions. The dimensional vortex acts of a barrier preventing anything from accessing or effecting anything above the fifth dimension

Also the Vortex doesn't contain infinite dimensions, it just blocks up higher dimensions. Being above normal Gods would at best be a Low 1-C thing, without anything backing a High 1-B rating.
 
Well, usually, it just says: "The Multiverse" but this is the first case we've seen it say "All creation" and in fiction, "All creation" usually means literally all of it, most of all because this is on a DMs guide, which means it could very well be "possibly High 1-B"
 
Also, aren't the Immortals stated as well? If they're stated, the Lady will by default one shot. It seems that the beings who aren't stated are vastly above the regular limitations of the Gods and similar stated beings.
 
Also, the "Realms near and far" very well maybe a reference to the Far realm as the "Near" may mean Material, Sigil and Inner Planes while "far" maybe the Outer Planes and the Far Realm itself.

Also, with it being a change it edition, yeah, it's highly like it would change the Far realm, the Illithid are constantly referenced in coming from the Far realm, and in 3.5e there's a God in the Far Realm that corrupts Illithid.
 
Also, the first time we've heard "Super-space" being used ever in the verse, which when it's defined as being "the sum of all creation, also called superspace.".

And we have no reason to doubt it being all creation, most of all because this is for the DM and the DM can make that happen as a 1-A being.
 
> Also, the "Realms near and far"

Or they could just mean near and far. The Far wasn't capitalized and the phrase "[near and far]" is an extremly common idiom

> All creation" usually means literally all of it

Except in this case there's a canonical barrier that blocks off the higher dimensional space and nothing confirms the LOP would be above it

> Also, aren't the Immortals stated as well? If they're stated, the Lady will by default one shot

What does stated mean in this context? Plus considering Vecna when experincing a high end Greater God surge could resist her, it's likely other extreme Greater Gods and high level Immortals could do so as well.

> Also, with it being a change it edition, yeah, it's highly like it would change the Far realm, the Illithid are constantly referenced in coming from the Far realm, and in 3.5e there's a God in the Far Realm that corrupts Illithid.

The Far Realm is unaffected by retcons to my knowledge. Also what god corrupts the Mind Flayers? They only follow one dude.

> And we have no reason to doubt it being all creation, most of all because this is for the DM and the DM can make that happen as a 1-A being.

The DM says so isn't really a super argument on a site that sticks strickly to lore/canon. A DM can say rocks fall everyone dies and destroy the omniverse or that since a Kobold got a NAT 20 he one shots Ao, but that doesn't get considered.
 
>Or they could just mean near and far. The Far wasn't capitalized and the phrase "[near and far]" is an extremly common idiom

The defintion also means everywhere, the Far Realm has never been disconnected from "Everywhere" or "All creation" additionally, the Far Realm's most powerful beings, literally their most powerful beings are comparable to the Gods, which are vastly below the LOP.

>Except in this case there's a canonical barrier that blocks off the higher dimensional space and nothing confirms the LOP would be above it

Well, said Cannonical barrier was said to only affect the Immortals, which the Lady would vastly be above as is..

>What does stated mean in this context? Plus considering Vecna when experincing a high end Greater God surge could resist her, it's likely other extreme Greater Gods and high level Immortals could do so as well.

Stated, have stats, given stats. Vecna was only able to resist her due to a Peer in Power directly protecting him, without it, he'd die just like the Greater God of Portals and there has never been any other Greater Gods to ever contest with her power ever since, no "Extreme Greater Gods and High level Immortals" exist on the level of the Lady, they need a comparable being to not instantly die to her, which isn't a argument.

>The Far Realm is unaffected by retcons to my knowledge. Also what god corrupts the Mind Flayers? They only follow one dude.

Well, the Illithid follow Ilsensine but Thoon is the Far Realm God that corrupts the Illithid. Also, no, the Far Realm isn't unaffected by Retcons. For example, the Illithid, there actually being Beings there, The Demiplane of Nightmares was originally apart of the Far Realm but then was retconned to be a Demiplane.

>The DM says so isn't really a super argument on a site that sticks strickly to lore/canon. A DM can say rocks fall everyone dies and destroy the omniverse or that since a Kobold got a NAT 20 he one shots Ao, but that doesn't get considered.

Perhaps, but that is the Nature of D&D, much like how the Author controls the reality of their fiction, so too does the GM, and that's why there's so much information in the air about this.
 
> The defintion also means everywhere, the Far Realm has never been disconnected from "Everywhere" or "All creation"

But it is. The Far Realm transcends normal reality and has a different alien set of rules

> additionally, the Far Realm's most powerful beings, literally their most powerful beings are comparable to the Gods, which are vastly below the LOP.

That doesn't support tier 1 LOP. Nothing in the Far Realm as of now tops tier 2. Even the leaders/nobels of the Far Realm are only CR 20-30 beings

> Well, said Cannonical barrier was said to only affect the Immortals, which the Lady would vastly be above as is..

The barrier affects everyone. Mortals, Immortals, Demons, Devils, Diablo, etc cannot breach the barrier. The point of the barrier is to accelerate the evolution of the few beings that become Immortals, but it stops everyone.

> Vecna was only able to resist her due to a Peer in Power directly protecting him, without it

The serpent gave Vecna a special spell that let him skip the standard steps of divine ascension, but he didn't directly empower Vecna. Vecna resisted her because he was a newly ascended Greater God and his power was at its theoretical maximum

> The Demiplane of Nightmares was originally apart of the Far Realm but then was retconned to be a Demiplane.

I thought they were separate, just that the standard dimensional barriers that prevent Far Realm influence was weak around the demiplane.
 
>But it is. The Far Realm transcends normal reality and has a different alien set of rules

When? Where did ti say the Far Realm Transcends normal Reality? It's said to be beyond the COSMOLOGY but not beyond Reality or Creation.

>That doesn't support tier 1 LOP. Nothing in the Far Realm as of now tops tier 2. Even the leaders/nobels of the Far Realm are only CR 20-30 beings

If they are Gods of the Far Realm, they should logically be able to manipulate it, the Far Realm being High 1-B/1-A, and them being comparable to the Gods which the Lady slaps into the Astral Plane.

>The barrier affects everyone. Mortals, Immortals, Demons, Devils, Diablo, etc cannot breach the barrier. The point of the barrier is to accelerate the evolution of the few beings that become Immortals, but it stops everyone.

Well, apparently not, from what I've read, it only affects the Immortals as they are the only ones able to attain the higher dimensional power, Humans are Infinite Dimensional without the Barrier, in fact they're 4-D but only able to view the first 3 Dimensions. Also, nothing implies that the Lady would be affected by the Barrier, most of all given her status of being absolutely above all Gods in the series besides Lumi.

>The serpent gave Vecna a special spell that let him skip the standard steps of divine ascension, but he didn't directly empower Vecna. Vecna resisted her because he was a newly ascended Greater God and his power was at its theoretical maximum

Well, the Serpent gave him the rite of Ascention, it took the Serpent's power to stop the Lady. "The walls are covered with bas-reliefs featuring some of the most important moments of Vecna's history, all dealing with his interaction with his benefactor, the mysterious Serpent."

"The scenes on the walls are as follows. Scene One: An old, slightly bent wizard stands on a windblown cliff. He wears a large gem-encrusted crown and black robes with smoky images of serpents embroidered upon them. A palace that looks like Vecna's palace in Cavitius stands in the distance, beyond a plane littered with the remains of what must have been an epic clash of armies. Overhead, the sky boils with lightning-tom storm clouds. A massive serpent-made partially from the clouds and partially from lightning snakes down toward the wizard, wraps around him, and seems to whisper in his ear. The old man's face seems aglow with understanding. Those who study the image closely note the faces of somber men and woman hidden in the clouds. (This scene portrays the Serpent the ancient source of Vecna's magical might-telling its loyal servant how he might triumph over Death itself and guide his empire to greater glory. The cloud faces are various deities from the world of Oerth, Vecna's place of origin; any person from the GREYHAWK campaign with the Religion proficiency can name several of the gods, who appear to be Flan in nature.)"

"Worshipers kneel at Vecna's feet, one of whom raises his left arm; his hand is blackened and clawlike. A massive ghostly Serpent rises behind and wraps around Vecna's form, the same Serpent that whispered in the ear of the ancient wizard in the first relief. (This scene portrays Vecna founding his church upon ascending to the status of demigod of secrets and hidden things. The Serpent's aid was instrumental in his rise, but any follower of Vecna also claims that his desire to be free of manipulating, lying gods and self-aggrandizing mortal lords also fueled his rise to godhood. If a hero gets into a debate with a follower of Vecna about how people in Citadel Cavitius are mistreated, the follower says that everyone here can rise as high as his or her abilities allow, and everyone knows who holds power and how it might be obtained.)"

"After a moment, Vecna turns to the rest of your party. He is confident and calm, in full command. "I am done here," he says. "The godlings who played at rulership here will trouble me no more, and this little reality is but one of many that will be destroyed in but moments. It has always been my destiny to be the master of all that is, was, or will be. With the aid of the Serpent, I will undo what has been and is now, and I shall master all that will be. You no longer concern me. Farewell, heroes. We will not meet again. Suddenly, everything around you dissolves into mist. You, along with the survivors of Iuz's strike force, plunge uncontrollably downward into a bottomless abyss. Vecna has triumphed.""

I can't copy this one.

Definately got power from the Serpent.

>I thought they were separate, just that the standard dimensional barriers that prevent Far Realm influence was weak around the demiplane.

No, they were originally one and the same, but then was retconned to being the same thing.
 
> Where did ti say the Far Realm Transcends normal Reality?

Here. "A place that exists outside of reality "

> If they are Gods of the Far Realm, they should logically be able to manipulate it, the Far Realm being High 1-B/1-A, and them being comparable to the Gods which the Lady slaps into the Astral Plane.

That means that every D&D God would need to be High 1-B or 1-A. Which is contradictory with other stuff in Mystara. The Far Realm gods are just Low 2-C to 2-A like standard Gods, but with more esotric powers

> Well, apparently not, from what I've read, it only affects the Immortals as they are the only ones able to attain the higher dimensional power,

It affects everyone, not just Immortals

> Well, the Serpent gave him the rite of Ascention, it took the Serpent's power to stop the Lady.

The Adventures says that the Serpant told Vecna of a 10th+ level spell along with telling him how to use it and of Iuz's pla . He didn't directly increase his power, just assissted him in getting acess to the spell. Throughout the Adventure itself it always mentions Vecna's waxing power which is allowing him to stop the LOP from removing him from the Sigil, not the Serpent increasing his strength.

> No, they were originally one and the same, but then was retconned to being the same thing.

You have any statements saying it was in the Far Realm?
 
>Outside Reality

But that wasn't what you said, you said "Transends Reality", being outside doesn't mean you have transended it.

>All gods being High 1-B/1-A

And further shows how things are supposed to be left up to the DM/Lumi

>Doesn't just affect Immortals

Where did it say it affects beings above the Immortals, Overdeities or affects anyone besides the Immortals?

>Serpent

"This scene portrays the Serpent the ancient source of Vecna's magical might-telling its loyal servant how he might triumph over Death itself and guide his empire to greater glory." "The Serpent's aid was instrumental in his rise, but any follower of Vecna also claims that his desire to be free of manipulating, lying gods and self-aggrandizing mortal lords also fueled his rise to godhood." "With the aid of the Serpent, I will undo what has been and is now, and I shall master all that will be. You no longer concern me. Farewell, heroes. We will not meet again. Suddenly, everything around you dissolves into mist. You, along with the survivors of Iuz's strike force, plunge uncontrollably downward into a bottomless abyss. Vecna has triumphed.""

>World of Nightmare

Here's a bit more while I find the source for the Realm of Nightmare being retconned.
 
> being outside doesn't mean you have transended it.

Fine, got my terminology mixed up. But it still should be unaffected by retcons and no one but Lumi and maybe the Old Ones transceds it.

> And further shows how things are supposed to be left up to the DM/Lumi

That works for a campagin, but not for this site

> Where did it say it affects beings above the Immortals, Overdeities or affects anyone besides the Immortals?

Its mentioned multiple times that people cannot pierce the vortex . They can enter it, but not go beyond it without first becoming a Old One. Even if we say that Overgods can ignore the barrier, what feat do they have that says they're above 5D?

> With the aid of the Serpent

Aid =/= empower. It means help. The Serpent gave aid by giving Vecna information about the spell, what Iuz was doing, and how to use the spell to achive ultimate power

> Here's a bit more while I find the source for the Realm of Nightmare being retconned.

That is a Mystarian fan site. While a good site, its not canon without mentioning where the information comes from. Also you're going to have issues considering in Mystara the Nightmare Dimension is just a name given to the fifth dimension while in standard D&D its just a demiplane connected to the Far Realm.

> Humans are Infinite Dimensional without the Barrier, in fact they're 4-D but only able to view the first 3 Dimensions.

Human are explicitly 3-D in Mystara. The only 4-D part about them is that they tap into the 4th dimension in order to use magic.
 
>Fine, got my terminology mixed up. But it still should be unaffected by retcons and no one but Lumi and maybe the Old Ones transceds it.

Fair enough for the first bit, but for the second part, nothing the Far realm is immune to Retcons, unless they're above the writers now, which we can both agree, doesn't make sense.

>That works for a campagin, but not for this site

Again, fair enough, but as we both agree, this is how the game is supposed to be used.

>Its mentioned multiple times that people cannot pierce the vortex . They can enter it, but not go beyond it without first becoming a Old One. Even if we say that Overgods can ignore the barrier, what feat do they have that says they're above 5D?

Possibly(big possibly) affecting the Far realm, vastly above the Immortals, Ao being absolutely unaffected by all Gods, The Celestial Emperor being above another Overdeities, that being the Celestial Beaurocracy. Being beyond the Vortex, that would mean the Lady affected all Creation (If we exclude the Far Realm as apart creation, as you have put up a good defence for it.) that would include the Higher dimensions that would be affected as well. Also, her True Form was stated to destroy all of the Multiverse.

>Aid =/= empower. It means help. The Serpent gave aid by giving Vecna information about the spell, what Iuz was doing, and how to use the spell to achive ultimate power

Aid may not directly mean empower, however, he is gaing power from him: "This scene portrays the Serpent the ancient source of Vecna's magical might" Also, Vecna is a Cleric, which means he does gain power from his Deity, which would be the Serpent. Also, Benefactors in D&D do empower the people they aid, for example, Clerics, Wizards and Warlocks.

>That is a Mystarian fan site


Fair enough, I'll need to find the source for the Demiplane itself, I do remember it, but not where I found it.

>Human are explicitly 3-D in Mystara. The only 4-D part about them is that they tap into the 4th dimension in order to use magic.

"Mortal races exist in four dimensions and perceive three: the first, second and third, for 'Normal' beings; the third, fourth, and fifth, for 'Nightmare' beings."

Also, I've lost the book for that, what's it's name again?
 
> nothing the Far realm is immune to Retcons, unless they're above the writers now, which we can both agree, doesn't make sense.

Oh of course, nothing is above the writers. I just meant that its immune to in-universe edition changes lore wise, like the New Gods from the 4th World in DC Comics in regards to the Crisis. Like it wasn't affected by the 3e -> 4e -> 5e universal changes

> Possibly(big possibly) affecting the Far realm, vastly above the Immortals, Ao being absolutely unaffected by all Gods, The Celestial Emperor being above another Overdeities, that being the Celestial Beaurocracy. Being beyond the Vortex, that would mean the Lady affected all Creation (If we exclude the Far Realm as apart creation, as you have put up a good defence for it.) that would include the Higher dimensions that would be affected as well. Also, her True Form was stated to destroy all of the Multiverse.

Nothing confirms anyone has affected the Far Realm, being above the Immortals/Gods is a High 2A thing, The Celestial Emperor is the overgod of a certain pantheon not of other Overgods, no one as of now is beyond the Vortex (besides the Old Ones/Lumi). The part of her being able to destroy the Multiverse is good evidence, but I still think that's just a High 2A feat that's a good degree above baseline

> "This scene portrays the Serpent the ancient source of Vecna's magical might"

Which could just be the Serpent giving Vecna magical knowledge and not power. Vecna wasn't ascened to Demigod status through the Serpant's power, but through a ritual. Same with him becoming a Greater God.

> Also, Vecna is a Cleric, which means he does gain power from his Deity, which would be the Serpent. Also, Benefactors in D&D do empower the people they aid, for example, Clerics, Wizards and Warlocks.

Vecna could've been a cleric before he ascended. Other Gods have high levels in clerical despite not having a being they draw power from. Plus as I said before, the book always mentions his power being the part that stops the LOP, not the Serpants

> Also, I've lost the book for that, what's it's name again?

Either Wraith of the Immortals or the Immortals Rule Set
 
>Far realm

I'll read more into the far realm to see if there has been changes to it besides the Illithid and the additions to it's nature and Gods.

>Nothing confirms anyone has affected the Far Realm Not comfirmed, but the Far Realm while not apart of Reality would be apart of All Creation. Additionally, the word: "Super-Space" is used as a first in the series and is never used again, and "Super-space" is defined by them as "All Creation" which naturally would include all the Dimensions in the Multiverse and the Far Realm.

Also, it was going on the premise that they are beyond the Vortex as is.


"Even if we say that Overgods can ignore the barrier, what feat do they have that says they're above 5D?"


Also, the Celestial Emperor is above the Celestial Beaurocracy which is speculated to be an Overgod along with the Celestial Emperor, but the Emperor governs the Celestial Beaurocracy.

"In addition to the subjects of the Celestial Empire and the officials of the Bureaucracy, the Celestial Emperor commanded the Nine Immortals, who stood beside his Jade Throne, always ready to do as he bade as agents of his divine will. At his direction, they commanded the Lesser Immortals and other officials and each took responsibility for one aspect of the Path of Enlightenment."


Also, Deities do manipulate Fate (Wee Jas to name one) and Fate is considered to be a Overgod:

"Besides the deities almost all Zakharans believed in the power of Fate. It was not seen as a god and not worshiped, but it was believed to influence mortals and deities alike. Because of this, Fate was often paid homage to and sometimes called on during times of great peril. The whole of Zakhara was called the Land of Fate to signify its importance.[3] Some sages speculated that Fate was an Overgod."


>Which could just be the Serpent giving Vecna magical knowledge and not power. Vecna wasn't ascened to Demigod status through the Serpant's power, but through a ritual. Same with him becoming a Greater God.

However, it makes the distinction that it's magical Might and not Magical knowledge, with the examples you gave.

>Vecna could've been a cleric before he ascended. Other Gods have high levels in clerical despite not having a being they draw power from. Plus as I said before, the book always mentions his power being the part that stops the LOP, not the Serpants

Well, his waxing power stops the Seals that stops the Gods, not what stops the Lady directly.

Also, yeah, some of them do have Levels in Cleric, but in his story he is told hhe was taught magic by his Mother, and taught the power of the Serpent, which pretty much comfirms being a Cleric and a Wizard. (Which he does have)

>Either Wraith of the Immortals or the Immortals Rule Set Sorted
 
Also, Blackballs are spawned from the Dimensional Vortex space which is called 6th dimensional:

"Some magic may even use additional dimensions beyond the fifth, but because of the sixth-dimensional vortex, these dimensions may not be perceived nor traveled to"

"Background: Unknown, even to Immortals. Blackballs seem to arise spontaneously from the Dimensional Vortex space, and have been seen returning to it voluntarily. Immortals suspect that blackballs can pass through the Vortex, and that they serve the Old Ones, but all this is conjecture."

So, they're possibly 6-D themselves and the Immortals can fight them.

They also have stats and as such are weaker than the Lady's Restricted form.
 
> Also, it was going on the premise that they are beyond the Vortex as is.

Why? She couldn't stop Vecna and Ao being above Greater Gods isn't a Low 1-C feat

> Additionally, the word: "Super-Space" is used as a first in the series and is never used again, and "Super-space" is defined by them as "All Creation" which naturally would include all the Dimensions in the Multiverse and the Far Realm.

But this is another issue is that she preformed the feat in her restricted state. Rearranging the planes is only a 2A thing.

> Also, the Celestial Emperor is above the Celestial Beaurocracy which is speculated to be an Overgod along with the Celestial Emperor, but the Emperor governs the Celestial Beaurocracy.

None of what you quoted mentioned the Bureaucracy being all overgods

> Also, Deities do manipulate Fate (Wee Jas to name one) and Fate is considered to be a Overgod:

Fate being a Overgod is still only a High 2A feat. I don't understand your point about lower level Gods have fate manipulation

> However, it makes the distinction that it's magical Might and not Magical knowledge, with the examples you gave.

Might is knowledge is magic. Plus in regards to this Vecna didn't recive a power boost from Serpant to become a Greater God nor to sustain it.

> Well, his waxing power stops the Seals that stops the Gods, not what stops the Lady directly.

When he became a full God, he could no longer remain in Ravenloft. So when he was being rejected from the realm he twisted the energies to form an artificial portal to the Sigil. But him resisting the LOP was due to his power . "Moreover, he must continue to exert a large portion of his total power to remain in the Sigil".

> They also have stats and as such are weaker than the Lady's Restricted form.

They only have stats because you can only fight them as Immortals which transcend normal limits. You don't get God stats in 2e, most of 3e, and 5e because your also expected to never achive the level of power to fight a god as a mortal.
 
@Udlmaster

Since the term superspace struct me as something that is probably scentific I looked it up. Superspace and Supersymmetry. In both cases the typical useage applies to 4th Dimensional Space, but even if we assume the abstoule highest possibility it would only be a 11D feat

Supersymmetry in alternate numbers of dimensions

It is possible to have supersymmetry in dimensions other than four. Because the properties of spinors change drastically between different dimensions, each dimension has its characteristic. In d dimensions, the size of spinors is approximately 2d/2 or 2(d  1)/2. Since the maximum number of supersymmetries is 32, the greatest number of dimensions in which a supersymmetric theory can exist is eleven.

So the feat would be "At most High 1-C", which it probably isn't even that considering it was established the "main" multiverse is only 4th Dimensional and the LOP could've achived it with higher 4D or 5D power.
 
Well, given the nature of how obscure at lot of D&D, it would be best to go for the grey area/Middle ground.

That way we can compromise.

I still believe her restricted form would be 2-A, I don't think that needs to be changed, nor do the Gods, I think they're good where they are.

But for her unrestricted form, due to how Wizards have made her one of the uncontested strongest in the verse I think this would be logical (Excluding Lumi of course.):

"At least Low 1-C, possibly much Higher"

"At least Low Complex Multiversal (Vastly stronger than all beings within the verse besides the Luminous being, which includes the Immortals which are 5-D beings. Constantly shown to be one of the strongest beings in the verse as well as remaining to be unstated.), possibly much Higher (Possibly affected the Far Realm when resetting the Multiverse, affected "Super-Space" which at it's highest could be 11-D, possibly beyond the Dimensional Vortex which allows the Old Ones to be potentially Infinite Dimensional)
 
I wouldn't even go that high. "At least High 2A (Vastly stronger than Greater Gods who can affect an infinite Multiverse), at most High 1-C (Restructured Superspace which can include up to 11th Dimensional Space)". I don't think Immortals (when under the Dimensional Vortex) have a High 2A feat. They're 4D physical but tap into 5D space for magic. Although I may have to look into it since top tier immortals can create universes and I have don't know how many dimensions it can have.
 
I'd say "Possibly" as (That's usually the wording) it's a possibility that she is that level, and her "Possible" best could be High 1-B if she did affect the Far realm, but like I've said before, that's a big if.
 
Okay, according to shape reality they can make a 5D plane assuming no other Immortal messes with them and making the assumption "Having the same laws as the Material Plane" means having a similar dimensional structure , but only an Empyreal or higher would possess enough theoretical power (there's also the possibility of it not being technically infinite which would raise some more issues ).

But assuming its a High 2A feat this would be one of the best feats that I know of in the series and I can't remember anything else by a God that would match making a 5D planar space of infinite size. Also being > Gods doesn't mean > Immortals


> I'd say "Possibly" as (That's usually the wording) it's a possibility that she is that level, and her "Possible" best could be High 1-B if she did affect the Far realm, but like I've said before, that's a big if.

I don't think there's anything to suggest she did affect the Far Realm
 
Well, there's the repairing all creation feat, which could have affected the Higher dimensions, as well, we know that if Vecna wins, everything in the verse dies, maybe except the Lady.

Also, it does say "All Creation" which would mean the Higher dimensions and possibly the Far Realm, the Higher Dimensions is a given, as again, "All Creation", the Higher dimensions come under "All Creation", Far Realm is a bit less clear, as it is said to be Outside reality, but it "technically" is apart of creation as a Concept.
 
> we know that if Vecna wins, everything in the verse dies, maybe except the Lady.

But that's not due to AP, but Vecna destroying a lynchpin of the Multiverse.

> Also, it does say "All Creation"

But all of creation is followed by the clarification of Superspace, which only goes up to 11 dimensions at the most. Its also possible she only reorginzed 4-Dimensions considering that's what the main D&D universe is.To give her a 1-B or 1-A rating would be contradicting the text itself.
 
Also, Superspace uses the Supersymmetry which also says this:

"

Extended supersymmetry
It is possible to have more than one kind of supersymmetry transformation. Theories with more than one supersymmetry transformation are known as extended supersymmetric theories. The more supersymmetry a theory has, the more constrained are the field content and interactions. Typically the number of copies of a supersymmetry is a power of 2, i.e. 1, 2, 4, 8. In four dimensions, a spinor has four degrees of freedom and thus the minimal number of supersymmetry generators is four in four dimensions and having eight copies of supersymmetry means that there are 32 supersymmetry generators.

The maximal number of supersymmetry generators possible is 32. Theories with more than 32 supersymmetry generators automatically have massless fields with spin greater than 2."

"

Supersymmetry in alternate numbers of dimensions
It is possible to have supersymmetry in dimensions other than four. Because the properties of spinors change drastically between different dimensions, each dimension has its characteristic. In d dimensions, the size of spinors is approximately 2d/2 or 2(d  1)/2. Since the maximum number of supersymmetries is 32, the greatest number of dimensions in which a supersymmetric theory can exist is eleven."
 
> Super-Space is all of Creation, I know it might look the same but think about it.

And by taking the superspace statement at face value means she can't be High 1-B or 1-A. And that's only if we take it at its absoutle maximum when it could still only be a 2-A feat. Which was may point about her being "At least High 2A, at most High 1-C"..

> Also, Superspace uses the Supersymmetry which also says this:

And the quote says "the greatest number of dimensions in which a supersymmetric theory can exist is eleven". Meaning she has a capped high.
 
Well, not quite, as the Value "V" is something used in the trace, the value can actually extend to infinity.

"Alternatively, one may be able to take the trace of operators on an infinite-dimensional space; in this case a (finite) trace is defined, even though no (finite) dimension exists, and gives a notion of "dimension of the operator". These fall under the rubric of "trace class operators" on a Hilbert space, or more generally nuclear operators on a Banach space."

"

Some simple formulae relate the dimension of a vector space with the cardinality of the base field and the cardinality of the space itself. If V is a vector space over a field F then, denoting the dimension of V by dim V, we have:

If dim V is finite, then |V| = |F|dim V.
If dim V is infinite, then |V| = max(|F|, dim V)."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

XSOULOFCINDERX
  • Locked
Primordial Hydra (D&D) Upgrades.
Replies
28
Views
1K
XSOULOFCINDERX
XSOULOFCINDERX
XSOULOFCINDERX
  • Locked
D&D Tyrannosaur revisions.
Replies
16
Views
906
Mr. Bambu
Mr. Bambu
DuckChuck
Tier 1 d&d gods
Replies
2
Views
867
DuckChuck
DuckChuck
XSOULOFCINDERX
What if the Tarrasque (Dungeons and Dragons) existed in your favorite verse?
Replies
1
Views
375
JustANormalLemon
JustANormalLemon
XSOULOFCINDERX
Giant Shark (D&D) vs Hydra (D&D) [0-0-0]
Replies
1
Views
291
XSOULOFCINDERX
XSOULOFCINDERX
Back
Top