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D&D Adventurer WIP Blog Pt. II
- Thread starter Mr. Bambu
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Well since this is a new page: The start of the argument from the old thread about the "possibly/likely" ratings for the Immortals and Old Ones
I'm in support of keeping the current 1-B and High 1-B ratings. But Matt disagrees with it and feels that they should just be labeled as "At least High 2A, likely Low 1-C, possibly higher" and "At least Low 1-C, likely 1-C, possibly higher"
I'm in support of keeping the current 1-B and High 1-B ratings. But Matt disagrees with it and feels that they should just be labeled as "At least High 2A, likely Low 1-C, possibly higher" and "At least Low 1-C, likely 1-C, possibly higher"
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Right. The argument for now on the front of "No 1-B/High 1-B" is that it largely relies on conjecture of what the greater possibilities for the Immortals/Great Ones are (of course, these are only possibilities).
The front of "Yes 1-B/High 1-B" points out that the verse clearly states that the Great Ones (a largely undefined species) is preventing the Immortals from ascending beyond their own five-dimensional spaces. Because of this, we can extrapolate that while the Old Ones are inherently above the Immortals, the Immortals could possibly reach new heights indefinitely so long as they are below the Great Ones, who prevent them from proving the reality of infinite dimensions (ergo, High 1-B).
I personally side with "Yes" but am gonna focus on the more grounded aspects of the verse since there is a lot more content in those aspects (essentially anything 2-A and below).
The front of "Yes 1-B/High 1-B" points out that the verse clearly states that the Great Ones (a largely undefined species) is preventing the Immortals from ascending beyond their own five-dimensional spaces. Because of this, we can extrapolate that while the Old Ones are inherently above the Immortals, the Immortals could possibly reach new heights indefinitely so long as they are below the Great Ones, who prevent them from proving the reality of infinite dimensions (ergo, High 1-B).
I personally side with "Yes" but am gonna focus on the more grounded aspects of the verse since there is a lot more content in those aspects (essentially anything 2-A and below).
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To avoid possible confusion (for unfamiliar people) The Great Ones and The Old Ones are the same race of beings, they just have multiple titles/names.
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That makes no sense. The Great Ones are preventing the immortal from ascending beyond the 5th dimension, yes, but that doesn't mean they will always inherently be above the immortals. Just that they are above their current state.
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The text itself states the barrier was put in place to focus the Immortal's efforts. Otherwise despite being able to transcend all boundaries they would be incapable of ascending to the ranks of the Old Ones. Plus nothing implied that the Immortals would ever be a match for the Old One's, let alone being stronger than them.
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Idk about high 1-B/1-B being legit since I haven't been able to check stuff out yet, but I will say that the justification seems more like a really high end 1-B than High 1-B, a la Magi Gods. If they're ever ascending but ultimately still bound by dimensionality, they shouldn't ever reach dimension number infinity.
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And?
Even if the immortals were 1-B that wouldn't make them High 1-B
Even if the immortals were 1-B that wouldn't make them High 1-B
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So "Countless but not infinite" dimensional?
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Like I said before, neither. They are still far too speculative ratings. Anything above Low 1-C isn't provable.
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"perhaps (used to indicate doubt or hesitancy)."
"in accordance with what is likely or achievable."
The first definition of possibly especially applies here, wouldn't you say? There is some grounds for it, but not enough to conclusively say they are that strong. That is exactly what the possibly rating is on this site. For the unsure upper bounds.
"in accordance with what is likely or achievable."
The first definition of possibly especially applies here, wouldn't you say? There is some grounds for it, but not enough to conclusively say they are that strong. That is exactly what the possibly rating is on this site. For the unsure upper bounds.
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I disagree with using possibly to justify increasingly and endlessly ascending 1-B. It is one possibility, but it is the highest possible interpretation. It is much better to go with "At least Low 1-C, possibly far higher"
The Aedra from Elder Scrolls could frankly be 16D or 1000D or even infinite-D if I were to base myself on some vague statements but I chose to go for a more concrete rating.
The Aedra from Elder Scrolls could frankly be 16D or 1000D or even infinite-D if I were to base myself on some vague statements but I chose to go for a more concrete rating.
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Possibly generally denotes the highest possible order. And why is it much better to ignore the possibilities of the statement? How is that better? Using possibly only assumes they continue the trend they are on now, with the Old Ones blocking the Immortals each time they break a dimensional vortex, which logically leads to 1-B and High 1-B respectively.
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Not really, we use possibly for things which can reasonably be assumed but lack proof. The highermost possible interpretation isn't utilized for profiles at all here.
And it is better to be conservative wih profile rankings and tierings than liberal to the point of wanking.
The Old Ones block the Immortals from becoming at least 6D. No scan or statement indicates that they can endlessly block the immortals from ascending, that's pure speculation, and even if they did they would still only be 1-B and not High 1-B. It doesn't logically lead to those ratings, I'm sorry.
And it is better to be conservative wih profile rankings and tierings than liberal to the point of wanking.
The Old Ones block the Immortals from becoming at least 6D. No scan or statement indicates that they can endlessly block the immortals from ascending, that's pure speculation, and even if they did they would still only be 1-B and not High 1-B. It doesn't logically lead to those ratings, I'm sorry.
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Which is what this is.
We are. The name-calling with wanking is common, though, in the face of high stats.
No offense meant, when you came to this thread we showed you a scan that you apparently refused to read to completion if only to deny the existence of infinite dimensions. I am not certain you are objective in your objections.
We are. The name-calling with wanking is common, though, in the face of high stats.
No offense meant, when you came to this thread we showed you a scan that you apparently refused to read to completion if only to deny the existence of infinite dimensions. I am not certain you are objective in your objections.
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It isn't, as I have routinely explained, there's nothing about either statement that indicates that:
a) The Immortals can ascend infinitely through dimensions
b) The Old Ones will always be above them
Both are speculation based on no textual evidence, but rather merely what seems "logical" to your assumptions. It is not remotely sufficient and concretely proven to be put on a profile.
What we know is this:
1. Immortals are 5D or lower
2. Old Ones are higher-dimensional and prevent them from ascending to higher dimensions
That's it. At the very least the Immortals could become 6D without the Old Ones, but nothing about the text states what dimension the Old Ones are, how many dimensions the Immortals can ascend to, if they can ascend forever, etc etc.
All of that is unknown and purely speculatory, and as such does not warrant a conclusive rating merely because you believe it is the most logical assumption.
a) The Immortals can ascend infinitely through dimensions
b) The Old Ones will always be above them
Both are speculation based on no textual evidence, but rather merely what seems "logical" to your assumptions. It is not remotely sufficient and concretely proven to be put on a profile.
What we know is this:
1. Immortals are 5D or lower
2. Old Ones are higher-dimensional and prevent them from ascending to higher dimensions
That's it. At the very least the Immortals could become 6D without the Old Ones, but nothing about the text states what dimension the Old Ones are, how many dimensions the Immortals can ascend to, if they can ascend forever, etc etc.
All of that is unknown and purely speculatory, and as such does not warrant a conclusive rating merely because you believe it is the most logical assumption.
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Also, I would appreciate not doubting my honesty and my objectivity simply because I missed a line.
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Grade A.
I agree with Bambu here.
I agree with Bambu here.
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I'll just repost two things that I wrote last time for my points
Just to clarify about Tier 1 placements for new people that might come to this thread, here's this page
> There is no proof they can ascend beyond the next dimension above the fifth.
We know a few things
Just to clarify about Tier 1 placements for new people that might come to this thread, here's this page
- Dimensions are explicty geometeic
- Immortals have a solid reasoning for infinife dimensions that is backed by the narration. The only issue is the dimensional vortex
- The dimensional vortex is an infinite six dimensional space made by the Old Ones in order to force the Immortals to evolve. Otherwise they would gain dimensional power without just transcending everything
> There is no proof they can ascend beyond the next dimension above the fifth.
We know a few things
- The dimensional vortex blocks anything <6D from getting to the 6th and higher dimensions
- The Old Ones did this in order to force the Immortals to evolve
- Without the dimensional vortex the Immortals would "transcend all boundaries" but still not join the ranks of the Old Ones
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I'll reply in depth later, but as I said Bambu, I did read all the scans. I just missed one line.
And the criticism is directed at the proposed ratings, not you.
And the criticism is directed at the proposed ratings, not you.
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To add on for Old Ones > Always Immortals
Someone must have been here before, they reason. Someone or some group, or perhaps some thing, made all of this. The Immortals call them the Old Ones—beings to whom even the power of the Immortals is but a drop in an ocean.
The Immortals are correct. With such power, the Old Ones knew that the Immortals would come. They saw this as an opportunity. For despite their unimaginable abilities, the Old Ones are tragically similar to Immortals in one respect. They cannot reproduce and the only way for other beings to achieve their level of power is through a test of time, experience, and will. Just as Immortals await and desperately desire the appearance of exceptional mortals, so do the Old Ones watch and wait for the greatest and best of all the Immortals.
But knowing that Immortal power could transcend all boundaries, the Old Ones set a limit to restrict the Immortals to help them concentrate their efforts. This is the Barrier.
So from this
Someone must have been here before, they reason. Someone or some group, or perhaps some thing, made all of this. The Immortals call them the Old Ones—beings to whom even the power of the Immortals is but a drop in an ocean.
The Immortals are correct. With such power, the Old Ones knew that the Immortals would come. They saw this as an opportunity. For despite their unimaginable abilities, the Old Ones are tragically similar to Immortals in one respect. They cannot reproduce and the only way for other beings to achieve their level of power is through a test of time, experience, and will. Just as Immortals await and desperately desire the appearance of exceptional mortals, so do the Old Ones watch and wait for the greatest and best of all the Immortals.
But knowing that Immortal power could transcend all boundaries, the Old Ones set a limit to restrict the Immortals to help them concentrate their efforts. This is the Barrier.
So from this
- Immortals can transcend all boundaries
- Despite being able to do so, they are incapable of becoming an Old One and lack their power
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@Qawsed
That's not what that excerpt says, at all.
"knowing that Immortal power could transcend all boundaries, the Old Ones set a limit to restrict the Immortals to help them concentrate their efforts. This is the Barrier."
All boundaries simply means that they would eventually transcend all beings, thus becoming greater than the Old Ones. This is precisely why the Old Ones set up the barrier to prevent this. The Immortals are beneath the Old Ones in their current state, but could grow more powerful.
This page doesn't say the Immortals are Infinite-Dimensional, quite the opposite. It says that they are 5th Dimensional at their highest, and are restricted from reaching the sixth dimension and higher through the Old Ones.
The unrestricted Immortals can become At least 1-C, but their upper limit is unknown, and so should simply be possibly higher.
That's not what that excerpt says, at all.
"knowing that Immortal power could transcend all boundaries, the Old Ones set a limit to restrict the Immortals to help them concentrate their efforts. This is the Barrier."
All boundaries simply means that they would eventually transcend all beings, thus becoming greater than the Old Ones. This is precisely why the Old Ones set up the barrier to prevent this. The Immortals are beneath the Old Ones in their current state, but could grow more powerful.
This page doesn't say the Immortals are Infinite-Dimensional, quite the opposite. It says that they are 5th Dimensional at their highest, and are restricted from reaching the sixth dimension and higher through the Old Ones.
The unrestricted Immortals can become At least 1-C, but their upper limit is unknown, and so should simply be possibly higher.
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Except the paragraph before
> They cannot reproduce and the only way for other beings to achieve their level of power is through a test of time, experience, and will.
And why was the barrier put in place?
> limit to restrict the Immortals to help them concentrate their efforts.
In other words if the barrier wasn't there Immortals would lack the focus to ascend to the level of the Old Ones
> Immortals are Infinite-Dimensional
No is saying or claiming they are. The reasoning is that they can achieve higher but always limited dimensional power. Which while strong is not on the levels of the Old Ones. So the claim isn't that the Immortals are infinite dimensional, but that the Old Ones are.
> They cannot reproduce and the only way for other beings to achieve their level of power is through a test of time, experience, and will.
And why was the barrier put in place?
> limit to restrict the Immortals to help them concentrate their efforts.
In other words if the barrier wasn't there Immortals would lack the focus to ascend to the level of the Old Ones
> Immortals are Infinite-Dimensional
No is saying or claiming they are. The reasoning is that they can achieve higher but always limited dimensional power. Which while strong is not on the levels of the Old Ones. So the claim isn't that the Immortals are infinite dimensional, but that the Old Ones are.
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@Qawsedf234
Yes, they cannot achieve their level of power as they currently are. But the Immortals foresaw that they eventually would surpass all boundaries.
Both statements cannot coexist at the same time, either they can't become more powerful than the Old Ones or transcend all boundaries.
And even if that was the case, that wouldn't make them High 1-B.
They could simply be whatever level of infinitely ascending 1-B the Immortals were + 1
Yes, they cannot achieve their level of power as they currently are. But the Immortals foresaw that they eventually would surpass all boundaries.
Both statements cannot coexist at the same time, either they can't become more powerful than the Old Ones or transcend all boundaries.
And even if that was the case, that wouldn't make them High 1-B.
They could simply be whatever level of infinitely ascending 1-B the Immortals were + 1
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But the Immortals foresaw that they eventually would surpass all boundaries.
Um, no. The Old Ones are the ones who said the Immortals could transcend all boundaries, not the Immortals themselves. But even with the constant boundary breaking this would not make them Old Ones. So the dimensional vortex was created to help them focus their efforts on ascending
either they can't become more powerful than the Old Ones or transcend all boundaries.
More like "Despite being able the transcend all boundries they could never become as powerful as an Old One".
They could simply be whatever level of infinitely ascending 1-B the Immortals were + 1
The reasoning for the High 1-B rating is that the Immortals would never stop gaining power, but would still be weaker than the Old Ones. High 1-B makes sense in that context
Um, no. The Old Ones are the ones who said the Immortals could transcend all boundaries, not the Immortals themselves. But even with the constant boundary breaking this would not make them Old Ones. So the dimensional vortex was created to help them focus their efforts on ascending
either they can't become more powerful than the Old Ones or transcend all boundaries.
More like "Despite being able the transcend all boundries they could never become as powerful as an Old One".
They could simply be whatever level of infinitely ascending 1-B the Immortals were + 1
The reasoning for the High 1-B rating is that the Immortals would never stop gaining power, but would still be weaker than the Old Ones. High 1-B makes sense in that context
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Transfinite can never reach infinity after all.
Also, another thing, about the Lifting Strength for the avatar key... Shouldn't it just be like, Class P or Z for being comparable to the Leviathan who moves continents? I can understand the low end just being at least Class K, but the high end should be... well, higher.
Also, another thing, about the Lifting Strength for the avatar key... Shouldn't it just be like, Class P or Z for being comparable to the Leviathan who moves continents? I can understand the low end just being at least Class K, but the high end should be... well, higher.
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I know they would scale AP wise, but I'm iffy on Lifting Strength. Doesn't that need more direct scaling?
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Well, if they're on the same level of strength, they should hold the same sort of lifting strength, assuming they are a melee fighter. I mean, it wouldn't really make sense for them to be completely even in Striking Strength and AP and then the Leviathan can just dominate them via a grapple.
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So going through some of the stuff that happening with the Composite Adventurer. Is it still going to be happening, or are we going to be make individual class pages?
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As of now I believe Bambu is still doing a composite Adventurer. While technically possible its just very meta-gamey.
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Actually I can agree to scaling to the Leviathan, being able to physically combat that thing should be enough to compare to its other physicals.
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I disagree entirely. The precedents are wrong as well. RPG Player Characters shouldn't be made specially at such composites.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Disagree as you like. The precedents were discussed back in the purging of other composites from the wiki- those which truly were just thought experiments. As it stands, this page exists as something far more possible than, say, Composite Human or Composite Link.
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It's not. It's far less reasonable than either. You can't act like the page may be made without any discussion or disagreement. Composite Human is a very common thought experiment and Composite Link is still one single character.
Composite Adventurer is completely different. You are taking every single D&D thing and smashing them into one. To act as if it's reasonable that there'd be only one Adventurer for every edition, expansion, campaign book, and class in 40 years of Dungeons and Dragons is simply ludicrous.
And I disagree with Composite Class profiles such as say Roblox profiles. And so I may have to make a thread about it.
Composite Adventurer is completely different. You are taking every single D&D thing and smashing them into one. To act as if it's reasonable that there'd be only one Adventurer for every edition, expansion, campaign book, and class in 40 years of Dungeons and Dragons is simply ludicrous.
And I disagree with Composite Class profiles such as say Roblox profiles. And so I may have to make a thread about it.
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I'm fine with composite class
But not... this.
But not... this.
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As for Qawsed
"Um, no. The Old Ones are the ones who said the Immortals could transcend all boundaries, not the Immortals themselves. But even with the constant boundary breaking this would not make them Old Ones. So the dimensional vortex was created to help them focus their efforts on ascending."
Read the text again. It says that the immortals cannot reach the level of the Old Ones as they are now. It then goes on to explain that this is because of the barriers. It's not both simultaneously.
And even if it was, it wouldn't be High 1-B. Transfinite isn't Infinite. You cannot reach High 1-B by continually ascending, this is more or less a standard within the Wiki.
You may think High 1-B makes sense but it is factually mathematically impossible even if all your assumptions Nate correct. Which they aren't, the text directly opposes the idea.
"Um, no. The Old Ones are the ones who said the Immortals could transcend all boundaries, not the Immortals themselves. But even with the constant boundary breaking this would not make them Old Ones. So the dimensional vortex was created to help them focus their efforts on ascending."
Read the text again. It says that the immortals cannot reach the level of the Old Ones as they are now. It then goes on to explain that this is because of the barriers. It's not both simultaneously.
And even if it was, it wouldn't be High 1-B. Transfinite isn't Infinite. You cannot reach High 1-B by continually ascending, this is more or less a standard within the Wiki.
You may think High 1-B makes sense but it is factually mathematically impossible even if all your assumptions Nate correct. Which they aren't, the text directly opposes the idea.
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Read the text again. It says that the immortals cannot reach the level of the Old Ones as they are now. It then goes on to explain that this is because of the barriers. It's not both simultaneously.
The text says this
"They cannot reproduce and the only way for other beings to achieve their level of power is through a test of time, experience, and will. Just as Immortals await and desperately desire the appearance of exceptional mortals, so do the Old Ones watch and wait for the greatest and best of all the Immortals."
"But knowing that Immortal power could transcend all boundaries, the Old Ones set a limit to restrict the Immortals to help them concentrate their efforts. This is the Barrier."
And even if it was, it wouldn't be High 1-B. Transfinite isn't Infinite.
But I'm not aruging that the Immortals are High 1-B, just Transfinite 1-B. The Old Ones are the only ones I have suggested a High 1-B rating for because the Transfinite Immortals can never reach their level of power
The text says this
"They cannot reproduce and the only way for other beings to achieve their level of power is through a test of time, experience, and will. Just as Immortals await and desperately desire the appearance of exceptional mortals, so do the Old Ones watch and wait for the greatest and best of all the Immortals."
"But knowing that Immortal power could transcend all boundaries, the Old Ones set a limit to restrict the Immortals to help them concentrate their efforts. This is the Barrier."
- The text clearly implies that the Old Ones are the strongest level of being you can become, but you can't reach it just by being strong. You must have enough experience and will to ascend to their state
- The Old Ones are incapable of reproducing. The only way for a new Old One to be made is for a Immortal to ascend
- Without the barrier the Immortals would keep gaining higher dimensional power. So to focus their efforts they created the vortex
And even if it was, it wouldn't be High 1-B. Transfinite isn't Infinite.
But I'm not aruging that the Immortals are High 1-B, just Transfinite 1-B. The Old Ones are the only ones I have suggested a High 1-B rating for because the Transfinite Immortals can never reach their level of power
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