D&D Adventurer WIP Blog Pt. II

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Qawsed

I know what the text says, but since you brought it up, let's break it down again, shall we?

"They cannot reproduce and the only way for other beings to achieve their level of power is through a test of time, experience, and will. Just as Immortals await and desperately desire the appearance of exceptional mortals, so do the Old Ones watch and wait for the greatest and best of all the Immortals."

Yes, and this proves absolutely nothing about the fact that the Old Ones will always be higher than the Immortals. The only thing it establishes is that on their current state, the Old Ones are more powerful. Were the Old Ones to always be superior, the very following line wouldn't exist:

"But knowing that Immortal power could transcend all boundaries, the Old Ones set a limit to restrict the Immortals to help them concentrate their efforts. This is the Barrier."

The notion here is clear. As it stands, the Immortals are beneath the Old Ones, but they have the potential to evolve and ascend on the dimensional ladder, and so the Old Ones created a barrier to restrict them.

If the Immortals could never reach the level of the Old Ones, than they would be factually incapable of transcending all boundaries. Both statements are in direct opposition to each other, and cannot be utilized in tandem.

"Yes, the Immortals can transcend all boundaries endlessly but never transcend the boundary of the Old Ones"

This notion is self-defeating, and not remotely implied in the text proper, I'm sorry. All that's implied is that the Immortals are weaker than the Old Ones in their current state and have the potential to become even greater if they were unrestricted.

"The Old Ones are the only ones I have suggested a High 1-B rating for because the Transfinite Immortals can never reach their level of power"

And even assuming this were true, argumentum's sake, this is a factually incorrect mathematical notion.

Literally the only thing needed for an Old One to be higher than a "Transfinite Immortal" is for him to be Transfinite himself, and literally just stand one level above that of the immortal at all times.

So no, High 1-B isn't acceptable even if you are correct in your interpretation of the text, and I believe you aren't.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Lets say I gave up the argument and agreed that the Immortals could surpass the Old Ones, if anything that would just make them stronger.

Coming from a place now lost in the mists of forgotten time and memory, the first Immortals found the multiverse; they did not create it. They found it without order, and without purpose, so they made the achievement of these things their highest goal. The many planes of existence are still being explored by the Immortals. The Outer Planes seem to be innumerable. With each passing millenium, the Immortals grow ever more awed by the apparently infinite size and variety of this vast creation.

Someone must have been here before, they reason. Someone or some group, or perhaps some thing, made all of this. The Immortals call them the Old Ones—beings to whom even the power of the Immortals is but a drop in an ocean.

The Immortals are correct.

The Old Ones are stated and confirmed to have created the Multiverse

One success could have been chance, but the second arrival proved that the great experiment known as the Multiverse would serve its purpose. The Old Ones continue to watch and wait for other daring Hierarchs. And someday when they are satisfied, when their unknown goals have been reached— someday the Old Ones will return.

The Old Ones called the Multiverse an "experiment". Which is more indication that they created it

This set does not attempt to fully describe the Old Ones. We cannot even fully describe their servants, the Immortals, nor their vast realm of the Multiverse. And no future volume will provide details on the Old Ones, for their powers transcend the framework of any mere game. To reduce them to game terms would trivialize their power, which is of an order far greater than the Immortals'.

The Old Ones are prepared to wait indefinitely, for Time has no hold over them. If any player character succeeds in the great journey, not merely achieving Hierarch status but proving his or her superiority by doing it twice—well, no higher goal can be attained, and no reward is too great. The player wins and his character vanishes. And that is the final end of this game.

This is a lot more DM heavy so feel free to dismiss it, but this also outright states that the Old Ones transcend the framework of the game so there's no reason to stat them out/expand on them.

So even of the Immortals can be stronger (which I do disagree with) wouldn't the above still support a High 1-B rating?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Creating an infinite dimensional multiverse sounds pretty damn High 1-B to me.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Creating an infinite dimensional multiverse sounds pretty damn High 1-B to me.

See, if this is in fact true, then you should have argued for High 1-B Old Ones from the very beginning, rather than use the extremely speculatory and highly questionable "Transfinite 1-B Immortals" to argue for it.

I also don't see how literally anyone that isn't the GM scales to them.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

...

I'm gonna have an aneurysm.

1. We DID argue for High 1-B Old Ones from the beginning.

2. The GM scales above them, CA scales to them as it is possible to become an Old One, since it is possible to become an Immortal.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Text actually does imply Lumi already scales to them

One fact remains for you, as Dungeon Master, to decide. Who are the Old Ones? Are they indeed the greatest and most powerful beings of all? Or perhaps, as they wait secure in their power, do even the Old Ones naively fail to see the most obvious fact of all? Can they really believe that no higher Being watches them?

One who also watches... and waits...

Also

High 1-B Old Ones from the very beginning,

We were always arguing for High 1-B Old Ones, just through a scaling chain rather than direct feats

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Lumi = Dungeon Master

(generally, anyways, we think)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Lumi = Dungeon Master
(generally, anyways, we think)

Obviously not literally, but in an allegorical way, yes.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes but you get what I mean boyo.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

...
I'm gonna have an aneurysm.

1. We DID argue for High 1-B Old Ones from the beginning.

2. The GM scales above them, CA scales to them as it is possible to become an Old One, since it is possible to become an Immortal.

You don't need to be rude like this, Bambu. I'm trying to be polite myself.

1. What I meant is that you should have used this feat as the argument as opposed to the uber vague scaling.

2. You know how I feel about CA.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah just blame me for the first point. I just completely forgot about the statements until my second to last reply. As Bambu said before he isn't familiar with this version of the game, so this was on me.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Matt you've continuously ignored things we've said (such as originally going for High 1-B and completely ignoring the High 1-B bits of the original scans until we re-pointed them out to you) and referred to the work we've been doing as wank while simultaneously saying we are not wankers (I assume this is some form of this Transduality I've heard so much about).

I do not mind skepticism as it leads to possibly finding wrongs. I do mind saying everything is wrong from the get-go. And yes. I am aware of your feelings towards CA and how they also don't make sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I didn't ignore the High 1-B bit of the original scan, I simply missed out on it by accident. Please, don't assume that I did it out of malice or for the sake of debating in bad faith. I made a mistake and it was fixed, no need to bring it up so often to discredit me. And I haven't just accused you of wank, I stopped using the term, and no need to be so sarcastic either.

I'm questioning the scaling because quite frankly, both composite adventurer and 1-B scaling make little to no sense. I don't think all is wrong from the get go, I'm quite fine with how some other users have analyzed D&D in the past. Namely Azzy and Aeyu, but I am skeptical of your proposed ratings and your suggested profile.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

If only there was a way to argue without getiing all up in each other's faces. Like seriously, this is a mess,, like most times DnD or WoD are challenged. Whether or not Matt could be more nicer with his words (he really could and should), the issue is that this happens too much to the same collection of verses. It's not a good look at all. Keep the damn personal attacks to a minimum people. It's really not that complex to do.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Thank you Dragon. It's really hard to deal with this every time I question either DnD or WoD.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So since that's all sorted out, here are some options that I think are agreeable with everyone

• High 2A, possibly higher | Low 1-C, likely High 1-B

If that doesn't work for the Immortals then something like this might

• High 2A, possibly 1-B/High 2A, possibly High 1-B/ High 2A, possibly 1-A

Theoretically there'a 7-8 confirmed dimensions. So the Old Ones could be "1-C, likely High 1-B"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Qawsedf

For the unrestricted Immortals, my opinion is:

"At least Low 1-C, likely far higher"

For the Old Ones, I'm fine with likely High 1-B if they actually created the multiverse.

Hope this can be acceptable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also Low 1-C immortals would allow we to have D&D Gods vs Elder Scroll Gods matches so please go for it

 

[Qawsedf234]

So would something "High 2A while restricted. At least Low 1-C, likely much higher if unrestricted" work?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, I agree perfectly with that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Then (assuming Bambu has no issues) the justifications should be

High 2-A while restricted (Capable of creating and moving five-dimensional spaces). At least Low 1-C, likely much higher when unrestricted (Stated as being able to transcend all boundaries) | At least Low 1-C (Comparable to other Old Ones who created the Dimensional Vortex, a six-dimensional space of infinite size), likely High 1-B (The Old Ones are stated as creating the Multiverse which is believed to contain infinite dimensions)

Also for powers Matt, is there a thing for existing before the Multiverse existed? Because the Old Ones are seemingly older than time or something.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also Low 1-C immortals would allow we to have D&D Gods vs Elder Scroll Gods matches so please go for it

Might be a stomp since Immortals unironcally have every spell ever at their disposal

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The same verses are challenged because people do not like the verses, I suspect @Dragon.

The fact of the matter is we literally provide scans to everything and people find things to be upset with purely so the verse is called into question. It is new. People do not seem to be a fan of new things when they are comfortable with what is there.

As for Matt being fine with how D&D was in the past. Is that so? You mean that past where they had literally none of their abilities on profile, every deity was merely "Space Manip, Time Manip, Reality Warping", yes? You were fine with it when nobody did any work on the verse whatsoever. Aeyu never showed up to threads and frankly the mention of them is worrying to say the least. Azzy is a godsend when he wishes to be but is often too busy to do much on this site.

I did not take it personally until I was insulted. Before that, it was all just a simple audit to make sure things were fine- I provided Dragon with literally an absurd amount of resources on Discord upon first hearing of this and showed I was trying to compile everything into a simple to understand blog. Following this the verse was accused of taking screenshots out of context and wank because (insert the lack of reason here), not to mention being baited on other threads because profiles were big without infrastructure to handle them. That was personal.

I don't mind questioning D&D. I mind it when people say stuff like "oh well it doesn't make sense" when I literally shove scans in every possible spot in reality to prove the points I have because every single statement made about D&D has been fact-checked so much Snopes would be jealous. And yet people still don't want to listen because it is new.

oof.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You are taking things far too personal Bambu. People don't trusting your CA profile and not thinking it should be a thing, and trusting others more than you is just a matter of personal opinion and continued observation on the wiki. It isn't a personal vendetta against your person.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Also Low 1-C immortals would allow we to have D&D Gods vs Elder Scroll Gods matches so please go for it

Don't think either can really kill the other

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This is D&D under Aeyu, for those wondering, in the not-too-distant past we didn't even have the damn sense to list Superhuman Physical Characteristics.

I'm not taking it personally at all, really. I take it as an attack on D&D rather than me as a human being. I suspect we'd get along great outside of the context of this wiki. However, in context for this wiki, we have a group of people doubting things apparently only after they become commonly used. For what purpose, exactly? Because everything is explained perfectly well and scans are given in-context to prove what we say. So what is happening here, exactly?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Imo the larger issue had more to do with improper scaling and a mixed 2e/4e cosmology. But it was bare bones.

But as of now the argument about the tier 1 stuff is setteled it seems. So would you mind updating the profile the next time you begin to add stuff Bambu?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Also Low 1-C immortals would allow we to have D&D Gods vs Elder Scroll Gods matches so please go for it

Don't think either can really kill the other

D&D Gods are more than capable of incaping iirc

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Aeyu never got a chance to revise D&D, but I really trust her knowledge on it from PM conversations.

It isn't an "attack" on D&D either. It is a criticism of a profile and different standards of evidence, you don't need to assume that I am somehow "biased" against D&D and am maliciously attacking a verse I'm completely indifferent and ambivalent towards out of... spite?I don't know.

And though you keep saying everything is perfectly explained, you have to realize that not everyone will see it the same as you. I don't remotely trust the profile, nor do I think it is something that can be allowed to exist as anything beyond a thought experiment blog, and I heavily oppose it therefore. Others agree as well.

And of course more people will doubt it the more people use it. People aren't omniscient, the popularity brings attention which results in people questioning the legitimacy of the popular thing.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Matt, you and Zachary are literally the only people with these problems

shouldn't that tell you something?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Its a questionable area. Gods are super haxy and have a variety of powers, but they're limited to 2-A which is lower than TES (I think). Immortals are stronger but lack the extremely wide variety of abilities gods have since they aren't the embodiment of Multiversal concepts.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Matt, you and Zachary are literally the only people with these problems
shouldn't that tell you something?

Not at all, I have heard complaints from quite many others. Azathoth in fact is against scaling anyone but the Luminous Being above the Old Ones and is against the CA profile.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

would you like to list all these "quite many others" and their complaints?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I absolutely ******* love DnD, but the composite adventurer is wank

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I absolutely ******* love DnD, but the composite adventurer is wank

how exactly?

CA is literally something that you can do in-game if you really wanted to

how is that wank?

 

[Kepekley23]

I absolutely ******* love DnD, but the composite adventurer is wank

Nice argument. Nice adding a lot to the discussion.

I am neutral but posts like this are why I don't take you seriously in the slightest.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

would you like to list all these "quite many others" and their complaints?

From memory alone I know Azzy, Dragonmasterxyz, Kepekley, Sera, and some others are against it. It's mostly because the D&D fandom is crafting out a niche within the wiki that's been primarily isolated from the rest of the site that they haven't encountered much open opposition until recently.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mean if the Composite Adventurer ends up being to controversial too post it wouldn't be difficult to just limit it to casters or just split it. But afaik the giant magic wall of text would still be needed for the Immortal and Old One section.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes? Never had a chance? How long were the profiles like that, I wonder. Since Corellon was made in early 2017 and Aeyu isn't even on that revision list. And... do you? You trust Aeyu? This may be the root of the problem, one feels.

I could only begin to guess motives for attacking the two other tabletop verses on the wiki aside from Warhammer. One does not need to know motive to know that such a thing is happening, however.

And you have to realize that on the very same profile, links are given to everything mentioned. Literally nothing is out of place. "Not seeing it the same" is subjective point of view. I am offering objective truth. Objectively, the profile gives access to all information needed on the given character.

The legitimacy of a thing explained countless times.

 

[Kepekley23]

I don't have an opinion on anything, actually. I used to doubt the High 1-B rating, but that has been clarified, so I'm just looking at this thread and waiting for everything to be laid out.