Cyberpunk Discussion Thread

[Qawsedf234]

know that is clearly refering to the sandevistan

The line refers to sipping the beer to trigger neurons in your brain.

 

[Alexander]

The line refers to sipping the beer to trigger neurons in your brain.

ok

 

[LaserPrecision]

The distance moved also doesn't align with our rules regarding slow or minimal movement, which is 0.013 m/s rather than assuming they couldn't cross their own projectile distance.

I can try a recalc using the 0.013 m/s thing, but is that something mandatory for feats where things seem completely frozen? I mean, the blog I got the method from involved a rain drop being statued for like a hot minute (not literally, but there was no motion whatsoever and remained that way for quite a bit).

Phoenks, what you're suggesting is that they're consistently over 50% the speed of light when triggering the Sandevistan. That literally just doesn't work with every other showings. It's just an outright outlier if you assume the calc is correct.

I never was much of the type to believe that a feat being far above other feats in a verse alone is enough reason for it to be an outlier on itself. The outlier guideline page somewhat highlights this:

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.

If it like completely breaks the narrative or previous scaling, then sure, I'd be fine to dismiss this one incident. That's fair. Though I saw other feats that seem like they'd be around the same ballpark. Well, using the method I used in the blog anyway. But I think it's a valid method considering it's on the calculation page on the wiki:

It's also used in the accepted Raiden calculation which I linked in my blog. So I figured it was fine to use.

Because the force from the calc is based on the size of the crater. The crater Smasher was in was smaller than the calced craters.

Now, I'm assuming you know it's not calc-stacking since I didn't take values from a separate scene to calculate the end result of the feat, though I do get what you're saying. However, I still think Adam Smasher should still scale to the full yield. Sure, it didn't do as much damage, but that's because a lot of that force was directly on Adam Smasher and the reticle for the area affected was focused on a more condensed area. There's NO reason to believe David didn't use the full force of the gravity on Adam Smasher in that scene when he was fighting for his life and his lover. I feel like this is the same as arguing:

"This planet level character hit this guy into a city and it didn't even blow up the Planet, so he only used City levels of power even though he has Planet level AP from destroying a planet in a previous calc thus the guy hit shouldn't scale to the Planet level AP."

 

[Qawsedf234]

Though I saw other feats that seem like they'd be around the same ballpark.

No feat is close to this one. Every single one has issues mentioned before that either contradict them being that fast. Such as Maine visibly moving while kicking David or water droplets/blood visibly falling from David's perspective or chips moving in air.

here's NO reason to believe David didn't use the full force of the gravity on Adam Smasher in that scene

I just think it would be a good idea to include an end that was just on Adam Smasher for prudence sake.

 

[LaserPrecision]

No feat is close to this one.

David viewing Adam Smasher's bullets frozen for an arguably longer amoung of time probably would tbh. So would the bullets being frozen in the first scene in the anime of a Sandevistan user, or when he viewed an explosion in slow-mo. I mean, if you can get sub-relativistic from seeing rain as frozen as demonstrated in the Raiden feat, I wouldn't at ALL be surprised to get relativistic results from seeing bullets as nearly frozen tbh. But maybe that's just me.

Every single one has issues mentioned before that either contradict them being that fast.

So? If it's inconsistent, we'd want to pick the demonstration of sandevistan with the least amount of inconsistencies, such as the one I calc'd where EVERYTHING is frozen and is clearly demonstrating just how effective it is. Whereas in other scenes, there's things moving faster than things that are actually faster than them in normal speed such as like you said, Maine moving relative to a literal rocket in slow-mo. Besides, that was EARLY series David with little enhancements. Of course he's going to be faster with Sandevistan after getting enhancements that increase his physicality even without Sandevistan. That's of course on TOP of his training he did. Picking the best showcases of something is a very normal practice here. Like sure, we can pick between the dozens and dozens of instances of slow things moving relative to David in his perspective to show that the Sandevistan is less than a 5x increase, but why do that when we can focus on the actually fast moving things moving in either really slow-mo or even being completely frozen? It just doesn't make sense to me.

I feel the main reason this is being disagreed upon is because it just doesn't "feel right" for Cyberpunk, which I can relate to that feeling, but I don't think we should let what we feel dictate what can be used.

I just think it would be a good idea to include an end that was just on Adam Smasher for prudence sake.

Sure, I wouldn't mind caculating it, as long as it wouldn't be what scales to Adam Smasher's peak LS. Feels arbitrary to assume that even though David was fighting with all he has against Adam Smasher and trying to crush him and stall him as long as possible would hold back the strength of his gravity attacks by thousands if not millions of times.

 

[Qawsedf234]

David viewing Adam Smasher's bullets frozen for an arguably longer amoung of time probably would tbh.

Smasher's bullets have similar issues. You can hear the gun cycling rounds, meaning the hammer was brought back and hit another bullet. It also did so multiple times.

If it's inconsistent, we'd want to pick the demonstration of sandevistan with the least amount of inconsistencies

The one with the least amount of inconsistencies would come from Cyberpunk 2077, since a game engine is more consistent than a animation.

ut why do that when we can focus on the actually fast moving things moving in either really slow-mo or even being completely frozen? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Because its inconsistent, so why go with the highest possible end and backscale that?

I feel the main reason this is being disagreed upon is because it just doesn't "feel right" for Cyberpunk, which I can relate to that feeling, but I don't think we should let what we feel dictate what can be used.

I disagree with it because its an outlier and contradicts other showings from the series and TTRPGs.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Sure, I wouldn't mind caculating it, as long as it wouldn't be what scales to Adam Smasher's peak LS.

I mean we're already scaling him to his max value anyways so I'm not really going to fight it. I just wanted to know what the result would be if it was just Smasher.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Apologies for the multi-post, but I thought it was important. Someone on another site brought up something I missed in an earlier WoG quote:

Word of God: Adam Smasher is pretty much what remains in his biopod. The biopod is a heavily protected brain sphere and shielded cable that covers what remains of the subject's spine. The cyberbody plugs into that through a series of neural ports. As heavily shielded as it is, the biopod can sustain immense amounts of punishment before it cracks. It also allows the user to change bodies by plugging the biopod into new ones.

Without giving too much away, Adam has (at least by 2045) jumped through several "bodies", including a very humanoid "Gemini" (see http://cyberpunk.asia/interface/fbc_07.jpg for an example of a Gemini). He pretty much stopped using more humanoid bodies post 4th Corp War (that's a story I'll have to tell someday) and moved up to the full metal hulk he currently lives in (which is a heavily modified Dragoon). One of the common truths about cyberbodies that are as nasty as the Dragoon is that most have kill switches built in, or the owner has been canalized against aggression towards his Corporate controllers.

Stupid extra fact: did you know that pre-Corp War, Adam affected a southern "good ol boy" accent that made him sound just like Elvis Presley?

So his body does have a canon baseline we can work off of for the P&A section without scaling it to the Samson Body. Here's the description from Chroombook 2

 

[LaserPrecision]

Smasher's bullets have similar issues. You can hear the gun cycling rounds, meaning the hammer was brought back and hit another bullet. It also did so multiple times.

Exactly what I was talking about. It's not like people think about exactly what speed these things would be moving relative to eachother in super slow-mo. The implication here that you'd be implying is that the bullets travel at a slower speed than the gun cycles speed, which means super slow bullets, or super fast cycle speed. You need to turn your brain off sometimes when taking in these scenes.

Otherwise the sollution would be to pick the absolute worst showing of the Sandevistan and use that since there would be nothing moving slower than it in the slow-mo and we'd end up with like almost nor increase at all for the Sandevistan.

The one with the least amount of inconsistencies would come from Cyberpunk 2077, since a game engine is more consistent than a animation.

Yea, a game where things are set to move at a certain speed to balance out the game as opposed to an anime/show where balance wouldn't matter nearly as much and can thus show to a better extent what it's capable of.

Because its inconsistent, so why go with the highest possible end and backscale that?

So? Vs wiki doesn't care if something is inconsistent alone. There needs to be more reason for why it can't be used. I already quoted the outlier page:

Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so

You can have one mountain destroying feat in a series in a series with consistent city level feats and that wouldn't be enough to dismiss it.

Dragon Ball had this same problem until Seth took care of that. Going with the highest showing is fine unless it's directly contradicted. Like say for the outlier example. If they had one mountain level destroying feat and consistent city level feats, and there was a statement that their max output was in the low Megatons level, then the Mountain level feat would not only be far above usual showings, but also directly contradicted in the story.

This is like trying to argue Goku isn't Planet level because his building-mountain level feats infinitely outnumber his actual Planet level feats, and thus we should only scale him to/calculate the low mountain level feat showings because they're infinitely more consistent.

I had a calc accepted and it is useable despite it being FAR above the rest of the feats in a verse because the only reason that someone could think of that it wasn't usable was that is "far above the other feats" to which a CGM replied:

It really feels overly dismissive to say a feat isn't valid because "It's higher than the other showings". In the case of a direct contradiction? Sure, if it completely breaks the narrative of the story and there isn't a way it could possibly work? Sure. Because it's above other feats in the verse? I disagree.

I disagree with it because its an outlier and contradicts other showings from the series and TTRPGs.

Don't the TTRPG's take place years before Edgerunners and the Games? I recall it being stated it was a rare occurrence to catch bullets even with a Sandevistan in the TTRPG's, yet it's a common occurrence in the game even WITHOUT the use of a Sandevistan (If their reflexes are above 8). I think it's fair to assume their technology has greatly developed over a large amount of time. So limiting something that occurs far further into the future with something from the almost distance past doesn't feel right.

I just wanted to know what the result would be if it was just Smasher.

If it's just for fun, I can calc it. I imagine Class M at most, maybe even Class K since another feat involving a larger crater I calc'd only got moderately into Class M.

 

[Qawsedf234]

t's not like people think about exactly what speed these things would be moving relative to eachother in super slow-mo.

If they don't think about it then take the same scene. The bullets are frozen but bodies are in seeable motion and blood is also moving? Adam's rocket is moving hundreds to thousands of times faster than his machinegun?

opposed to an anime/show where balance wouldn't matter nearly as much and can thus show to a better extent what it's capable of.

Or an anime that's inconsistent with other material and doesn't work when compared to everything else, especially with the assumption that they're Rel+ which is quite literally tens of thousands of times better than everything else in the verse besides incredibly high end super computers.

I already quoted the outlier page:

Here's another quote

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.

It breaks the established scale and the scale presented in that scene contradicts other scenes. Like this one where you can demonstrably tell David is not moving at Rel+ speeds.

It really feels overly dismissive to say a feat isn't valid because "It's higher than the other showings".

Its not just higher than other showings. Its tens of thousands of times higher and its inconsistent with other portrayals of the item across other canon sources, including the anime itself.

I recall it being stated it was a rare occurrence to catch bullets even with a Sandevistan in the TTRPG's, yet it's a common occurrence in the game even WITHOUT the use of a Sandevistan (If their reflexes are above 8).

The quote is from 2020. The Reflex thing was from RED which takes place in 2045.

greatly developed over a large amount of time.

In 2077 which occurs after Edgerunners we can get similar Sandevistan's to David and none of them would get V or another Edgerunner to Rel+ with their speeds. Even against Tech Weapons at full charge.

 

[Qawsedf234]

As an aside to this, the 2077 body would need to be changed I guess

• 2077 goes to "Dragoon Body"

He gets the following P&A

• Superhuman Physical Characteristics
• Cyborgization (96% of his body has been replaced with machines. Has a built in HUD that can access a multitude of databases)
• Enhanced Senses (Has a notable array of visual and auditory upgrades)[3]
• Longevity (Cyborgs are capable of living for well over a hundred years due to their enhancements)
• Explosion Manipulation (Has a wide range of explosive projectiles. From grenades to high explosive shells)

Resistances

• Pain Manipulation (Has built in Pain Editors that control the levels of pain that Smasher feels[3])
• Poison Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation, Biological Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation (The Dragoon body is designed to fully protect its user from biological, chemical, electronic and nuclear warfare.)
• Light Manipulation (Has eye shielding to block out blinding light[2])
• Sound Manipulation (Immune to things like sonics and stun bombs[2])

Dunno if we should include the optional vision packages or not, since Smasher still presumably just has his base upgrade + the Kyoshi eyes at this point.

 

[Naito-desu]

A sip of the Sandy will have your neurons tingling

You don't need to be a genius to know that it's clearly not, unless you want to be my guest and drink a cybernetic implant

 

[LaserPrecision]

If they don't think about it then take the same scene. The bullets are frozen but bodies are in seeable motion and blood is also moving? Adam's rocket is moving hundreds to thousands of times faster than his machinegun?

Yes, we established things are moving unrealistically in slow-motion because they don't think all of it out down to a science. Thus why I said go with the higher showings in the slow-mo that'd be in the same ballpark. Namely the several seeing bullets frozen sequences.

Or an anime that's inconsistent with other material and doesn't work when compared to everything else, especially with the assumption that they're Rel+ which is quite literally tens of thousands of times better than everything else in the verse besides incredibly high end super computers.

When do we arbitrarily draw a line that a feat can't be used anymore? The outlier page states that a feat alone being far above other feats from a verse isn't enough reason alone to dismiss it.

Here's another quote
It breaks the established scale and the scale presented in that scene contradicts other scenes. Like this one where you can demonstrably tell David is not moving at Rel+ speeds.

There's a lot of feats that are like subsonic to supersonic too. There's several feats where David IS going Relativistic speeds. I'm sorry there isn't 100% consistency like in 100% of fiction. Should we downgrade Dragon Ball to mountain level for having thousands and thousands of feats that far outnumber the demonstrated Planet level feats in the series? No, we go with the higher showings intentionally.

Here's another quote from the outlier page:

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.

There's at LEAST three instances with relativistic speeds. The one I already calc'd, the one where Adam Smasher's bullets are frozen, the one where a random cyberpsycho viewed his bullets as frozen. It being outnumbered by many MANY low showings doesn't really matter, in the same reason why lower showings for verses like Dragon Ball don't matter and the higher showings take precedence.

Its not just higher than other showings. Its tens of thousands of times higher and its inconsistent with other portrayals of the item across other canon sources, including the anime itself.

Dragon Ball being Planet level is inconsistent with the hundreds upon hundreds of showings that are tens of thousands of times lower. Not even Dragon Ball, pretty much any verse with any relatively impressive amount of power, like say Kill la Kill, or Metal Gear, etc. where they have far FAR more unimpressive dismissed feats in favor of the high-showings, because high-showings are favored OVER lower showings.

In 2077 which occurs after Edgerunners we can get similar Sandevistan's to David and none of them would get V or another Edgerunner to Rel+ with their speeds. Even against Tech Weapons at full charge.

Because it's a game that balances things out more as to not make you completely and overwhelmingly overpowered to a point where the fastest things in the game are completely frozen. I don't find this surprising at all. There needs to be some level of difficulty to it. I can see some of the best feats from the game getting Massively Hypersonic+ and some of the lower-end feats from the Anime getting Massively Hypersonic+ to Sub-Relativistic, with the higher showings being outright Relativistic.

 

[Qawsedf234]

. Thus why I said go with the higher showings in the slow-mo that'd be in the same ballpark. Namely the several seeing bullets frozen sequences.

And as I said, why? Why go with the higher showings that absolutely blow everything else out of the water rather than other showings that are more consistent with 2077 and other scenes within the anime.

Should we downgrade Dragon Ball

We're not talking about Dragon Ball and you know you're using a fallacy here by brining this up.

When do we arbitrarily draw a line that a feat can't be used anymore?

Its not arbitrary when its thousands and thousands of times better than everything else.

There's at LEAST three instances with relativistic speed

There's one calc showing and the other two showings you brought up are not internally consistent for other reasons.

Its one showing that's high, not a bunch.

Dragon Ball

We're not talking about Dragon Ball. What it does or does not do has zero impact on Cyberpunk.

I can see some of the best feats from the game getting Massively Hypersonic+ and some of the lower-end feats from the Anime getting Massively Hypersonic+ to Sub-Relativistic, with the higher showings being outright Relativistic.

Then establish a consistency. If the games are Sub-Rel or MHS+ then we'll go with Sub-Rel and MHS+. But when the highest current other rating is Mach 71 vs Mach 787,501.5 its nowhere near consistent enough to justify such a gap.

 

[LaserPrecision]

And as I said, why? Why go with the higher showings that absolutely blow everything else out of the water rather than other showings that are more consistent with 2077 and other scenes within the anime.

Because a feat doesn't need to be consistent with others to be legit as I've been saying over every reply so far.

We're not talking about Dragon Ball and you know you're using a fallacy here by brining this up.

I understand that, it is an analogy. You can replace Dragon Ball with any relatively powerful verse in fiction.

Its not arbitrary when its thousands and thousands of times better than everything else.

That wasn't my question, it was when do we arbitrarily draw a line.

There's one calc showing and the other two showings you brought up are not internally consistent for other reasons.

Its one showing that's high, not a bunch.

I never said it was a bunch. I said there are three instances of relativistic speed. Which is true. It not being internally consistent isn't important either. Because it's a scene that wasn't thought out super concise. Heck, him hearing sound at all would imply sound moves at relatively normal speed. This is like the same for most fictions that use time slow. Thus we go with the most impressive instance within the scene. We CAN calc the less impressive stuff such as humans moving slightly slower than usual to get unimpressive results, but we focus on the higher end things.

We're not talking about Dragon Ball. What it does or does not do has zero impact on Cyberpunk.

Again, I didn't say it did, I used an analogy. Analogies aren't always 1:1 with the series being talked about. In fact, most of the time they aren't.

Then establish a consistency. If the games are Sub-Rel or MHS+ then we'll go with Sub-Rel and MHS+. But when the highest current other rating is Mach 71 vs Mach 787,501.5 its nowhere near consistent enough to justify such a gap.

I'll stick to calc'ing scenes from the Anime. Calc'ing game feats kinda drain more energy out of me, but if there's anyone willing to calc people deflecting or dodging those Mach 7 projectiles from point blank even without the Sandevistan and also calc the time dilation with the best Sandevistan and its affects on the fastest rounds in the game (The railguns I presume which exceed Mach 7) that'd be cool. If no one wants to do it, I could prolly get to it at some point, but I can easily see the verse reaching Massively Hypersonic+ to Relativistic speeds with Sandevistan from what I'm hearing and seeing.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I understand that, it is an analogy.

Dragon Ball being inconsistent has no baring on Cyberpunk being consistent or inconsistent. How its rated also had nothing to do with Cyberpunk.

, it was when do we arbitrarily draw a line.

When said showing is better than everything else by an enormous degree and isn't inconsistent with itself either.

wasn't thought out super concise.

So if the scene wasn't thought out correctly why go with the highest possibly version of it and claim that's the right way to do it?

Calc'ing game feats kinda drain more energy out of me, but if there's anyone willing to calc people deflecting or dodging those Mach 7 projectiles from point blank even without the Sandevistan and also calc the time dilation with the best Sandevistan and its affects on the fastest rounds in the game (The railguns I presume which exceed Mach 7) that'd be cool.

I can try and get a Tech Rifle along with a Sandevistan enemy to get you a clip to use tomorrow I guess.

Though my claim with the scene is actually wrong, since you'll need to adjust your calc anyways. Even without the snail speed thing the Militech Weapon used for your calc was M-179 Achilles (comparison) which is a Tech Weapon which would mean you need to use the 8,000 FPS figure anyways (which even with that is still MHS+: (2438.4 / 0.013) * 10.03 = 1,881,319.384 m/s or Mach 5484).

 

[LaserPrecision]

Dragon Ball being inconsistent has no baring on Cyberpunk being consistent or inconsistent. How its rated also had nothing to do with Cyberpunk.

I understand that, again, it is an analogy.

Analogy:
"a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification."
"a correspondence or partial similarity."
"a thing which is comparable to something else in significant respects."

The purpose of the analogy to give an example with similar circumstances to draw a conclusion from. I never stated Dragon Ball being inconsistent or that its ratings had any bearing on how Cyberpunk is scaled. That is straw manning my argument. I'd rather you address the analogy then saying I'm trying to say I'm saying Dragon Ball directly holds baring on how Cyberpunk is scaled.

When said showing is better than everything else by an enormous degree and isn't inconsistent with itself either.

Can you give me the number where we arbitrarily draw a line? 100x stronger? 10x stronger? 15.64x stronger? 1000x stronger? 1000000x stronger?

So if the scene wasn't thought out correctly why go with the highest possibly version of it and claim that's the right way to do it?

Because it best shows the full extent of the slow-motion. Its full capacity so to speak. As opposed to taking the LOWEST showings in a scene. Again, we COULD calc the humans moving slightly slower instead and dismiss all higher feats, but I don't think that's the way to go. We can apply this logic to more than just speed. Why do we use David making craters in the desert which are by far his best feats when we have MANY other feats that are far lower? Why scale his lifting strength to Class G based on his feat in the desert of compressing ground when he has FAR more LS feats that are less impressive that outnumber the best feats 10 to 1? Because in the wiki, we internally give the higher showings of a series higher priority/precedence over low-showings.

I can try and get a Tech Rifle along with a Sandevistan enemy to get you a clip to use tomorrow I guess.

If no one's willing to calc it, yea, I can do it. I think someone here said they were willing to tackle calcs from the game though?

Though my mistake with the scene is actually wrong, since you'll need to adjust your calc anyways. Even without the snail speed thing the Militech Weapon used for your calc was M-179 Achilles (comparison) which is a Tech Weapon which would mean you need to use the 8,000 FPS figure anyways (which even with that is still MHS+: (2438.4 / 0.013) * 10.03 = 1,881,319.384 m/s or Mach 5484).

I haven't really gotten a reason of why the method I used is wrong though. The method is on the calculation page as a viable method for feats where things physically appear completely frozen, and was accepted in the Raiden calculation where they used that exact method.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Can you give me the number where we arbitrarily draw a line?

Once again, the line isn't arbitrary its relative. A feat can be better than everything else and still not be an outlier with a proper reason. Here the feat is better than everything else and is inconsistent with itself and with other showings from other canon material. Its an outlier without a proper reason to justify its use.

address the analogy then saying I'm trying to say I'm saying Dragon Ball directly holds baring on how Cyberpunk is scaled.

Dragon Ball has multple statements, comparison and guidebooks for their ratings. People mention blowing up planets a lot, we have clear visuals of them doing so, we have in-universe justification that they can limit the damage they do and their higher feats have confirmation for stacked power.

Cyberpunk has a feat in one scene that is thousands of times better than everything else and is inconsistent with itself and other material. The comparison doesn't work.

Why do we use David making craters in the desert which are by far his best feats when we have MANY other feats that are far lower?

David wouldn't get LS for his gravity crush. He can't even move his own body without his Anti-Grav shoulder units because it's to heavy. He's Class 50 because he can throw large vehicles, but he can't lift anything with his gravity powers based on his showings.

The only one that would get Class G would be Smasher who withstood and moved when David's gravity well was on him, but no one else would scale to that figure.

scale his lifting strength to Class G

We wouldn't. It would be something like "Class 50, Class G with gravity crush" or something like that.

I haven't really gotten a reason of why the method I used is wrong though.

My point there was that my previously complaint about speed was incorrect. Canonically the gun he slowed was a Tech Weapon, which would scale to the 8,000 FPS figure. The point of the parenthesis was that even with a snail speed assumption it would still be a MHS+ showing.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Once again, the line isn't arbitrary its relative. A feat can be better than everything else and still not be an outlier with a proper reason.

The outlier page makes it seem that even if there isn't a proper reason that a feat being above isn't inherently an outlier. Not every feat is given an explanation/proper reason.

Here the feat is better than everything else and is inconsistent with itself and with other showings from other canon material. Its an outlier without a proper reason to justify its use.

A lot of the scenes are inconsistent with eachother. The only way we could find what is consistent is by calcing every single individual instance of time-slow, comparing the speed of EVERYTHING moving in one scene which would require bare minimum like HUNDREDS of different calcs to get an "average" from. Its easier to just focus on the higher showings, like bullets being super slow and even freezing than calcing every single thing in each instance of using Sandevistan.

Dragon Ball has multple statements, comparison and guidebooks for their ratings. People mention blowing up planets a lot, we have clear visuals of them doing so, we have in-universe justification that they can limit the damage they do and their higher feats have confirmation for stacked power.

Cyberpunk has a feat in one scene that is thousands of times better than everything else and is inconsistent with itself and other material. The comparison doesn't work.

I much preferred this response over the previous ones, and it's a fair point. Dragon Ball does have more statements and guides going for it. Lets look at Cyberpunk for example, why do we scale Adam Smasher to City Block level when there's only one feat at that level across all the media? There's PLENTY more wall level feats than Building level, let alone City Block level.

David wouldn't get LS for his gravity crush.

The LS would scale to the gravity wells though, wouldn't it?

The only one that would get Class G would be Smasher who withstood and moved when David's gravity well was on him, but no one else would scale to that figure.

Lets look at that for example. Why scale him to Class G when that's thousands upon thousands upon THOUSANDS of times above Class 50? Surely we should instead focus on all the Class 1 to 50 feats instead and scale him off of that, right?

My point there was that my previously complaint about speed was incorrect. Canonically the gun he slowed was a Tech Weapon, which would scale to the 8,000 FPS figure. The point of the parenthesis was that even with a snail speed assumption it would still be a MHS+ showing.

Ah, gotcha. Makes sense. Does that mean the method I used was legit though? Wanna make sure given its on the calculations page, but I don't often see it used.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The outlier page makes it seem that even if there isn't a proper reason that a feat being above isn't inherently an outlier. Not every feat is given an explanation/proper reason.

Section Five covers inconsistencies and issues with other feats. A planet busting feat doesn't have to be an outlier, but its still context dependent.

Its easier to just focus on the higher showings

But that doesn't make it correct. It makes it a highballed assumption of their speed.

Adam Smasher to City Block level when there's only one feat at that level across all the media?

Because unlike the Sandvesitan there's nothing really contradicting that rating. Smasher in his Dragoon Body only fights David and V. The former he stomps and the latter he loses to. He doesn't have the screen time to get the inconsistencies needed to question his tier.

The LS would scale to the gravity wells though, wouldn't it?

Why? David can't move his own mech suit without Anti-Gravs and needed boosters to move an AV. The gravity crushes are Class G, but David himself is Class 50 or whatever.

Its like how we separate the Lifting Strength for people with TK like with Tornado (One Punch Man), Andrew (Chronicle) or Jean Grey (Marvel).

David would be Class 50 physically and Class G with his gravity suppression.

Why scale him to Class G when that's thousands upon thousands upon THOUSANDS of times above Class 50?

Because he's Class G with his gravity crush ability, which every showing will get you a Class M to a Class G rating. Unlike with the Sandevistan.

Does that mean the method I used was legit though?

I mean, its a legitimate way to calculate it, I just think that the snail speed number fits better. Though that's just personal bias rather than an actual calc complaint.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Section Five covers inconsistencies and issues with other feats. A planet busting feat doesn't have to be an outlier, but its still context dependent.

Fair

But that doesn't make it correct. It makes it a highballed assumption of their speed.

Just as the low-ends are a lowballed assumption of their speed, yes.

Because unlike the Sandvesitan there's nothing really contradicting that rating. Smasher in his Dragoon Body only fights David and V. The former he stomps and the latter he loses to. He doesn't have the screen time to get the inconsistencies needed to question his tier.

However, there's way more feats in the verse below that feat. I'm not referring strictly to Adam Smasher, but also David, most of the craters he made weren't City block level and a lot of his feats done while with the mech would be around Building level and less. Thus making the City Block level feat "inconsistent" and not useable. Would it not be that way?

Why? David can't move his own mech suit without Anti-Gravs and needed boosters to move an AV. The gravity crushes are Class G, but David himself is Class 50 or whatever.

Its like how we separate the Lifting Strength for people with TK like with Tornado (One Punch Man), Andrew (Chronicle) or Jean Grey (Marvel).

David would be Class 50 physically and Class G with his gravity suppression.

Fair, but I was agreeing with what you're saying now. I was referring specifically to the gravity crush, not his physicals.

Because he's Class G with his gravity crush ability, which every showing will get you a Class M to a Class G rating. Unlike with the Sandevistan.

I think outside the desert scene, none of the craters would touch Class G, I think they'd wind up with Class M at most. Which is still fairly below Class G in which there's only a few of, which going with the logic from before (That only having a few feats of the same caliber doesn't justify it being valid, like the several bullet freezing feats) wouldn't be useable.

I mean, its a legitimate way to calculate it, I just think that the snail speed number fits better. Though that's just personal bias rather than an actual calc complaint.

Gotcha.

 

[Dalesean027]

I mean if we want to wait a little I can get a few calcs out on sunday for in game feats since I'll be off work, I already said I'll get the clip for the in game sandevistan stuff

 

[Qawsedf234]

, but also David, most of the craters he made weren't City block level

You sure? Even the smaller craters in Night City were in the Tier 8 range going by size comparisons to the stuff I the Badlands.

already said I'll get the clip for the in game sandevistan stuff

Alright.

 

[Chariot190]

I think they'd wind up with Class M at most.

A tiny half meter wide crater only a few inches deep is Class M. It ain't hard to hit Class M, Class G is the hard part.

 

[Spinoirr]

Shouldn't V have multiple selfs already?

 

[Dalesean027]

Shouldn't V have multiple selfs already?

Yep and it's thanks to Johnny that V doesn't go Cyberpsycho

 

[Dalesean027]

Sooo do smart weapons have any speed in lore as well I have clips for tech weapon dodging and quite a few smart weapon dodging feats

 

[Naito-desu]

They don't have a set speed, but they supposedly use gyrojet technology, which relative to tech weapons, are really slow given they need to home on their target. Irl Gyrojet guns go up to 380 m/s

 

[Dalesean027]

380 m/s

Rip still works ig

 

[Mariogoods]

As an aside to this, the 2077 body would need to be changed I guess

• 2077 goes to "Dragoon Body"

He gets the following P&A

Dunno if we should include the optional vision packages or not, since Smasher still presumably just has his base upgrade + the Kyoshi eyes at this point.

I feel that optional vision packages should at best be optional equipment and I don't think pen and paper optional stuff should be given to 2077 key.

 

[Dalesean027]

btw here's the calc for the basic gorilla arms I said I would do a litlle bit ago

Gorilla Arms do DAMAGE

vsbattles.fandom.com

Wall level obviously

 

[Mariogoods]

btw here's the calc for the basic gorilla arms I said I would do a litlle bit ago

Gorilla Arms do DAMAGE

vsbattles.fandom.com

Wall level obviously

At least we don't need the baseline Wall level now.

 

[Dalesean027]

At least we don't need the baseline Wall level now.

very true and I'm working on some in game speed calcs involving bullet dodging rn

 

[Dalesean027]

very true and I'm working on some in game speed calcs involving bullet dodging rn

here's the blog where I'm working on that

Cyberpunk 2077 Various Bullet dodging feats

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Baken384]

Honestly thought Katsuo (The bully who did the atata/ora ora ora barrage on David) would play a bit of a bigger role especially after his dad's death

 

[Dalesean027]

btw here's the calc for the basic gorilla arms I said I would do a litlle bit ago

Gorilla Arms do DAMAGE

vsbattles.fandom.com

Wall level obviously

here's the blog where I'm working on that

Cyberpunk 2077 Various Bullet dodging feats

vsbattles.fandom.com

Calcs from both have been accepted but the speed ones from in game are pretty disappointing the results being this
Calc 1: 842.333333 (Supersonic) literally right off of Supersonic+
Calc 2: 511.472592m/s (Supersonic)
basically in game feats will likely generally range from Supersonic to Supersonic+ easily MAYBE hypersonic under the right conditions (I'll try again another day with an regular Assault Rifle since they generally have higher muzzle velocities than the Smart guns I used and can be dodged better than tech weapons, I'll also lower my difficulty so I can get closer for better high end results) but remember that's all for enemies with literally the worst sandevistan's at only mark 1 which if we remember only give a 1.62x boost opposed to the End game being 10x which definitely makes it more consistent to be in Hypersonic to High Hypersonic+ ranges at endgame

I'll be the first to say though if any calcs get in the higher hypersonic ranges for enemies with Sandevistan mark 1's then thats easily grounds for endgame V and Adam Smasher to maybe get close to MHS but that's likely where stuff will peak game wise and using those multipliers differences but also from this we can gather that people are generally supersonic in Cyberpunk even without Sandy's but will get higher into it and reach into supersonic+ to hypersonic ranges with a bad one

then again Reflex 8 is considered high by itself and those with it are generally considered mid tiers and that's where bullet dodging comes in so eh

 

[Dalesean027]

gonna get a clip rn using a LMG KLOL got into the hypersonic ranges with the calcs I did above so we'll just get a good clip of that

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'll be the first to say though if any calcs get in the higher hypersonic ranges for enemies with Sandevistan mark 1's then thats easily grounds for endgame V and Adam Smasher to maybe get close to MHS but that's likely where stuff will peak game wise and using those multipliers differences but also from this we can gather that people are generally supersonic in Cyberpunk even without Sandy's but will get higher into it and reach into supersonic+ to hypersonic ranges with a bad one

Well as a guess to use the numbers you got

• Using 1 meter as the distance rather than 2.2 you get 1,128 m/s (696 m/s after taking the Sandevistan into account)
• Assuming some hyper literal close distance like 10 centimeters or something then that would get you 112,826.11 m/s (69,645 m/s after taking the Sandevistan into account)

I know officially speaking according to Cyberpunk Friday Night Shootout that 80% of fights take place within 21 feet (6.4 meters) and 40% of that 80% takes place in distances within 8 feet (2.4 meters)

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also I've updated the Smasher WIP profile for whenever we want to make a CRT changing stuff with him

 

[Pedr0_Jones]

Do we consider that Soul Manipulation works on beings like Smasher?