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Cthulhu Mythos Revisions (Part 1)

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Aye it’s finally here, big hype.

Anyway I agree with the changes, favourite part about this is that the CM pages will no longer look like *****.

CM will have finally have a non-***** smurf in Nyar as well ovo.
 
Ned_the_outer_god said:
Also, what do you mean by part 1?
Funnily enough, while CM gets upgraded to high 1-A, Shinza is getting downgraded to measly 1-A
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So we actually plan on completely overhauling the verse in it's entirety

This includes the Great Old Ones, the various species, etc. among others. This thread specifically though is mainly address the god tiers (Sans Randolph Carter for now, who we plan on getting too later)

We're still working on revisions for the lower tiers of the verse, which will be addressed later in another part.
 
Planck69 said:
That looks incredible. Congrats to Ovy7 and anyone else who worked on it.
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Yeah Ovy set the ground work and presented the idea which was pretty based. He's the one who put the Outer Gods in there and used some good artwork for the pictures. I went and added the rest of verse and new artwork for each afterwards in preparation for this.
 
Something that needs to be addressed about this thread however.

We plan on deleting Ubbo-Sathla, and Abhoth

Ubbo-Sathla actually has no evidence of being an Outer God besides one mention of him alongside Yog, however this is extremely vague. His only notable association with the verse, is the fact he's progenitor to most species alive on earth. Theres really nothing aside from that which holds any weight when it comes to Ubbo, and anything else that points towards him being an OG is Expanded Universe.

As for Abhoth well... Honestly I have no clue why he's even listed as an Outer God, since he doesn't even reside in the Ultimate Void, he's literally in some random cave. We're going to get rid of his page as well for similar reasons. No actual evidence of him even being an outer god and isn't very noteworthy in verse.
 
Of course it was poor Ultima who was forced to make this thread, sad times smh.

Great job to everyone who worked on this. I suppose the rest of the 1-As not listed in OP will get the axe?
 
It seems so. That means Abhoth and Ubbo Sathla are getting the boot.
 
CrimsonStarFallen said:
Of course it was poor Ultima who was forced to make this thread, sad times smh.

Great job to everyone who worked on this. I suppose the rest of the 1-As not listed in OP will get the axe?
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Randolph Carter is safe, we just are still deciding on what to tier him as.

Ubbo and Abhoth however, are just gonna get deleted.
 
ShivaShakti said:
Something that needs to be addressed about this thread however.

We plan on deleting Ubbo-Sathla, and Abhoth

Ubbo-Sathla actually has no evidence of being an Outer God besides one mention of him alongside Yog, however this is extremely vague. His only notable association with the verse, is the fact he's progenitor to most species alive on earth. Theres really nothing aside from that which holds any weight when it comes to Ubbo, and anything else that points towards him being an OG is Expanded Universe.

As for Abhoth well... Honestly I have no clue why he's even listed as an Outer God, since he doesn't even reside in the Ultimate Void, he's literally in some random cave. We're going to get rid of his page as well for similar reasons. No actual evidence of him even being an outer god and isn't very noteworthy in verse.
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To add on to this, Abhoth in particular is also stated to be "coeval of the old gods who died when the Earth began." So, if anything, he's probably just a contemporary of the Great Old Ones.
 
I only agree on the basis we call Shub-Ya boi N-Word pass-urath is called Lilith.
 
KingPin0422 said:
To add on to this, Abhoth in particular is also stated to be "coeval of the old gods who died when the Earth began." So, if anything, he's probably just a contemporary of the Great Old Ones.
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I found the quote for this:

"I, who am Abhoth, the coeval of the oldest gods, consider that the Archetypes have shown a questionable taste in recommending you to me. After careful inspection, I fail to recognize you as one of my relatives or progeny; though I must admit that I was nearly deceived at first by certain biologic similarities. You are quite alien to my experience; and I do not care to endanger my digestion with untried articles of diet."
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Note that Abhoth mentions beings known as the Archetypes. One might be led to believe that this is referring to the Ultimate Gods, but they are very different, and I will prove it with excerpts from the same story:

"However, it may be that the Archetypes can somehow dispose of you. At least you will be a novelty to them, since no example of contenporary human evolution has so far descended to their stratum. Therefore we shall put you under that highly urgent and imperative kind of hypnosis which, in the parlance of warlockry, is known as a geas. And, obeying the hypnosis, you will go down to the Cavern of the Archetypes..."

The region to which the magistrate of Commoriom was now conducted lay at some distance below the ophidian laboratories. The air of the gulfs and grottoes along his way began to increase markedly in warmth, and was moist and steamy as that of some equatorial fen. A primordial luminosity, such as might have dawned before the creation of any sun, seemed to surround and pervade everything.

All about him, in this thick and semi-aqueous light, the hunter discerned the rocks and fauna and vegetable forms of a crassly primitive world. These shapes were dim, uncertain, wavering, and were all composed of loosely organized elements. Even in this bizarre and more than doubtful terrain of the under-Earth, Raphtontis seemed wholly at home, and he flew on amid the sketchy plants and cloudy-looking boulders as if at no loss whatever in orienting himself. But Ralibar Vooz, in spite of the spell that stimulated and compelled him onward, had begun to feel a fatigue by no means unnatural in view of his prolonged and heroic itinerary. Also, he was much troubled by the elasticity of the ground, which sank beneath him at every step like an oversodded marsh, and seemed insubstantial to a quite alarming degree.
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The Cavern of the Archetypes, described here, is detailed as simply a primordial version of the Earth with vaguely shaped organisms and terrains - most in line with the Outer Extension, but possibly different even from that.

To his further disconcertion, he soon found that he had attracted the attention of a huge foggy monster with the rough outlines of a tyrannosaurus. This creature chased him amid the archetypal ferns and clubmosses; and overtaking him after five or six bounds, it proceeded to ingest him with the celerity of any latter-day saurian of the same species. Luckily, the ingestment was not permanent for the tyrannosaurus' body-plasm, though fairly opaque, was more astral than material; and Ralibar Vooz, protesting stoutly against his confinement in its maw, felt the dark walls give way before him and tumbled out on the ground. After its third attempt to devour him, the monster must have decided that he was inedible. It turned and went away with immense leapings in search of comestibles on its own plane of matter. Ralibar Vooz continued his progress through the Cavern of the Archetypes: a progress often delayed by the alimentary designs of crude, misty-stomached allosaurs, pterodactyls, pterandons, stegosaurs, and other carnivora of the prime.
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The Cavern is furthermore depicted as a primal Earth with archetypes of plants and forms resembling dinosaurs.

At last, following his experience with a most persistent megalosaur, he beheld before him two entities of vaguely human outline. They were gigantic, with bodies almost globular in form, and they seemed to float rather than walk. Their features, though shadowy to the point of inchoateness, appeared to express aversion and hostility. They drew near to the Commorian, and he became aware that one of them was addressing him. The language used was wholly a matter of primitive vowel-sounds; but a meaning was forcibly, though indistinctly, conveyed:

"We, the originals of mankind, are dismayed by the sight of a copy so coarse and egregiously perverted from the true model. We disown you with sorrow and indignation. Your presence here is an unwarrantable intrusion; and it is obvious that you are not to be assimilated even by our most esurient dinosaurs. Therefore we put you under a geas: depart without delay from the Cavern of the Archetypes, and seek out the slimy gulf in which Abhoth, father and mother of all cosmic uncleanness, eternally carries on Its repugnant fission. We consider that you are fit only for Abhoth, which will perhaps mistake you for one of Its own progeny and devour you in accordance with the custom which It follows."
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When the so-called Archetypes are finally reached, they are revealed to be a pair of vaguely humanoid entities, "the originals of mankind." Nothing like the Archetypes from Through the Gates of the Silver Key.

So, yeah, Abhoth is just not an Outer God. I'd wager the idea that he is comes from misreading the story and its mention of "Archetypes".
 
Having read this story, I can vouch for KingPin. Nothing he really does implies that he's an Outer God.
 
Yog have mercy that I took the time to actually read through this entire CRT including the OP just because.

Anyway like I already mentioned in previous threads, all the 1-A and higher stuff is way above my head (even after reading all the above content) however the proposals seem reasonable so I guess this CRT has my support if that counts to anything however I do agree CM characters that aren't explicitly stated to an outer/ultimate god tier shouldn't scale to them.

Good job folks!
 
So far it's 2-3 staff, some retired staff, over 15 members as well as essentially everyone who worked on the CRT. I think that may be enough but what do you guys think?
 
Not really needed, but I agree with the proposed upgrades
New verse page is looking great too
 
ShivaShakti said:
Yeah Ovy set the ground work and presented the idea which was pretty based. He's the one who put the Outer Gods in there and used some good artwork for the pictures. I went and added the rest of verse and new artwork for each afterwards in preparation for this.
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Hmmm some Gods look like viruses rather than actual Gods in those pics you choosed.

I personally prefer the some of the current pics.
 
Planck69 said:
So far it's 2-3 staff, some retired staff, over 15 members as well as essentially everyone who worked on the CRT. I think that may be enough but what do you guys think?
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I would say otherwise since it is a big big big tier jump
 
Apex_PredatorX said:
Hmmm some Gods look like viruses rather than actual Gods in those pics you choosed.

I personally prefer the some of the current pics.
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"look like viruses rather than actual gods"

Well I didn't actually choose the Outer God images, Ovy did. And I mean... The Outer Gods are meant to be abstract with forms beyond comprehension. I'd argue they are far more representative of the idea behind them, rather than the current pics we use on the verse page which IMO are quite generic by standards (The main offender being Azathoth's artwork because dear god it is awful)

Unless youre referring to the GOO's? In that case I don't know what you're talking about. Those are just black and white drawings of some of their more iconic depictions.
 
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ShivaShakti said:
"look like viruses rather than actual gods"

Well I didn't actually choose the Outer God images, Ovy did. And I mean... The Outer Gods are meant to be abstract with forms beyond comprehension. I'd argue they are far more representative of the idea behind them, rather than the current pics we use on the verse page which IMO are quite generic by standards (The main offender being Azathoth's artwork because dear god it is awful)

Unless youre referring to the GOO's? In that case I don't know what you're talking about. Those are just black and white drawings of some of their more iconic depictions.
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How can they be abstract with forms beyond comprehension it they look like viruses?

The New Azathoth pic is good, I clearly said SOME pics in my previous comment, also I didn't named which ones look not soo cool.

But talking about that even if the Azathtoth pic is likely not to representative (for someone like you), it stills a work of an artist that put all of his/her time and effort on it, BUT if you can do something better, please show me it, I wanna see it.

I'm not alking about GOO's
 
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Apex_PredatorX said:
How can they be abstract with forms beyond comprehension it they look like viruses?

The New Azathoth pic is good, I clearly said SOME pics in my previous comment, also I didn't named which ones look not soo cool.

But talking about that even if the Azathtoth pic is likely not to representative (for someone like you), it stills a work of an artist that put all of his/her time and effort on it, and unless you can do something better, I think you should at least take into consideration the effort behind each pic even if you don't like.

I'm not alking about GOO's
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I'm not trouncing the quality of the art itself or the skills of the artist, i'm saying its extremely generic and doesn't work for an Azathoth depiction (which is a complaint numerous people had when it was also put on the profile, and it was changed back later due to the fact it wasn't representative)

You saying they "look like viruses" is something I can't really say and i'm unsure how you're even getting that, in fact it almost sounds reductory in its notion and if you want to use me saying "this picture is bad" then I can say you're doing the same and disregarding the artist? But i'm not going to.

The picture we have for Yog Sothoth on the verse page is actually far more accurate than the one we have on the other verse page (Yog is described to be an arrangement of incomprehensible Orbs and Spheres, whereas our verse page just has him as a mound of tentacles for whatever reason), Nyarlathotep's picture is a reference to the Bloodtongue form which he takes, Azathoth is an abstract nucleus (He is the nuclear chaos at the center of infinity after all), etc. I don't see where the virus comparison comes from and even then, it doesn't matter.
 
ShivaShakti said:
I'm not trouncing the quality of the art itself or the skills of the artist, i'm saying its extremely generic and doesn't work for an Azathoth depiction (which is a complaint numerous people had when it was also put on the profile, and it was changed back later due to the fact it wasn't representative)

You saying they "look like viruses" is something I can't really say and i'm unsure how you're even getting that, in fact it almost sounds reductory in its notion and if you want to use me saying "this picture is bad" then I can say you're doing the same and disregarding the artist? But i'm not going to.

The picture we have for Yog Sothoth on the verse page is actually far more accurate than the one we have on the other verse page (Yog is described to be an arrangement of incomprehensible Orbs and Spheres, whereas our verse page just has him as a mound of tentacles for whatever reason), Nyarlathotep's picture is a reference to the Bloodtongue form which he takes, Azathoth is an abstract nucleus (He is the nuclear chaos at the center of infinity after all), etc. I don't see where the virus comparison comes from and even then, it doesn't matter.
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Fair enough.
 
Azathoth really do be getting the downgrade axe huh... R.I.P

Seriously tho, I agree with the OP. Congrats to all who participated in this
 
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Is he second to yog sothoth? Because from what I understand, yog sothoth is the peak of the verse as of now
 
So to give a rundown of the scaling in case you misunderstood

Ultimate Gods < Azathoth and Yog Sothoth < Archetypes < Supreme Archetype
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
Is he second to yog sothoth? Because from what I understand, yog sothoth is the peak of the verse as of now
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Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth both have the same Supreme Archetype key because of their equivalent positions and significance among the Outer Gods: Azzy being the nuclear chaos at the center of all infinity who rules and created existence and the Outer Gods, and Yog being all-encompassing and holding past, present, and future as well as the Ultimate Gate within himself. They are like the microcosm and the macrocosm, the point and the circle, the Atman and the Brahman, etc., with the Supreme Archetype being the Monad where these two are recognized as one and the same.
 
Its also not too much of a stretch to say they can be interpreted that way as they are treated equally as important in relation to the other Ultimate Gods, and Lovecraft is known for incorporating various themes and figures from different theological writings (Such as Nodens, Hypnos, and Dagon all being direct depictions of different gods, and Shub-Niggurath being equated to Astarte and Lilith etc.)
 
ShivaShakti said:
So to give a rundown of the scaling in case you misunderstood

Ultimate Gods < Azathoth and Yog Sothoth < Archetypes < Supreme Archetype
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So the archetypes and the supreme archetypes are basically stronger versions of the outer gods?

Also just one point of contention I have is 5-A Nya. Is there calc for that? Because the feat itself feels like 5-B but I'm likely wrong so forget it.
 
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