Creation, Attack Potency, and Pocket Realities

[The_Causality]

The Dimension creation depends on the size I suppose, we do not treat it like that already? There exist Characters who can Create a Space Time Continium with the size of a Galaxy but this is Still Galaxy level in an higher exend

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Pocket realms should be ignored in any stat (except probably range) because they are vastly inconsistent across fiction to begin with.

You know what? I'm starting to agree with this.

 

[Agnaa]

"The same could be said about any other calculation method." But common sense doesn't lead us to them, it leads us to an explosion. No-one happened to come up with those other methods and thought they were good to use for pocket reality feats, many disconnected individual's common sense led them to explosions.

 

[Kaltias]

@Dargoo

Agnaa's point is that this calculation method doesn't exist, because pocket dimensions aren't a thing irl

It isn't nitpicking the most consistent method, it's choosing the one that makes the most sense.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Sera If we were treating destroying a galaxy as individually destroying everything in that galaxy, then creating it would surely be greater than destroying it.

But the same doesn't necessarily apply when destroying it through an explosion.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Then we shouldn't pretend like they follow a real life metric if we can't prove they do.

What Sera says is correct. Perhaps calcing them and treating them as feats in the first place is the fallacy.

 

[Agnaa]

Well we can follow a real-life metric but the results they give seem too high so we won't use it, rather than dismissing it if it's an outlier like we already do with every outlier.

 

[Kaltias]

Sure, but in this case this applies to literally every creation feat ever.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I am referring to pocket dimension feats, not creation feats as a whole.

 

[Agnaa]

Other creation feats are roughly eyeballed/quantified in the same way.

 

[Kaltias]

But it is the same issue. Why creating a universe sized pocket dimension and creating a universe would be different?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Sera's argument was that they're specifically greatly inconsistent among fiction to begin with.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

And perhaps eyeballing it is the correct thing to do, if calculating based on the actual energy produces unrealistic results.

As Matt said, you don't need to calc every feat.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

But it is the same issue. Why creating a universe sized pocket dimension and creating a universe would be different?

At that point it wouldn't be called a pocket dimension, it would be called an entirely different universe.

 

[Kaltias]

You can't eyeball if you don't have some kind of reference, though.

Otherwise you end up with two characters with the same feat, one 7-C because "this looks town sized" and one 7-B because "this looks like a city"

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Then perhaps more reliable feats should be found instead of attaching falsified mathematics to feats that operate on something else entirely, but can't be used because how outlierish the results would be if done properly.

Just because you can't reliably find a number for something, doesn't mean you should magically make one up and call it accurate.

 

[Andytrenom]

I think I'll lend my focus to the creation page issue for a moment.

Definitio
Here's a rough and incomplete draft

The ability to materialize an object or number of objects into an environment is termed as Creation. The process used to achieve this varies from instance to instance, sometimes being an act of converting energy into a tangible mass of matter, other times the object is willed into existence via reality warping and in yet other cases could be carried out it with an entirely different method.

What is constant across all these cases, is that a character _____(I think other people should chip in deciding what should be the requirements for a power to be considered creation)

Possible Uses
Will come up with some stuff later, my mind is drawing a blank right now...

 

[Sera_EX]

Yes, my argument is that pocket realities are very inconsistent. For example, a Reality Marble can appear to be anything on the inside. It could be a literal infinite desert or be a space filled with countless galaxies. However just because Gilgamesh can rekt any Reality Marble with Ea, does not mean he is High Universe level based of "infinite space" or even Multi-Galaxy level based on "countless galaxies" and this doesn't even account for outliers, which could also be the case.

If the basis of our system and the dimensional tiering it uses upwards is size (the magnitude or dimensions of an object, measured as length, width, height, diameter, perimeter, area, volume, or mass), than pocket realms should be treated as just that, pockets. They are not the equivalent of their three-dimensional+ counterparts unless proven otherwise, such as non-Euclidean realms or those that only appear a certain way from a certain perspective, such as a god that created a universe in a fish tank. From his perspective it's just a fish tank but from lower beings it's their entire universe.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Andy I have a very rough draft on my sandbox if you'd like ideas.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Darkgoo All ears

 

[Kaltias]

The point is that sometimes you need a way to calc that stuff.

Is throwing the Sun at light speed a 4-C feat? No, it's High 3-A. But we rate it as the former, because fiction doesn't treat it as a High 3-A feat, but more often as tier 4

Does reality warping a planet into existence require tier 5 energy? No, energy isn't involved.

Whether or not these feats are outliers depends from the verse, also

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Andy

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Dargoo_Faust/Sandbox

 

[The_Causality]

About the Creation of 4-A realm, give a logical level it's pretty weird,we can:

• Calculate the GBE of all stars in the realms
• Calculate the Luminosity of each other

But I don't think this give a Good level regarding the feat But i know we can't use E=MC┬▓ without indication but it would not be a solution?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The point is that sometimes you need a way to calc that stuff.

The thing is is that we HAVE a way to calc it, and it's called Mass-Energy. It produces outliers a lot, yes, that's why it's hardly used. But we shouldn't use equations that have nothing to do with creating a pocket dimension or matter just because the one that's correct doesn't give you the results you want.

Feats sometimes don't need a number. And if you want some, and the feats are consistent, look for feats that can be calced using equations that actually relate to what you're calcing.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Darg I think yours is a more easy to read through version

 

[Kaltias]

I also honestly don't get why you are talking about consistency when the discussion is how to calc them.

If a feat is inconsistent you don't use it. The feat being quantifiable is a different matter entirely

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm asking for a way to calc them that actually has to do with making matter. GBE makes at least some sense with keeping the matter from floating apart, but explosions aren't even remotely related.

Then calc using mass-energy and ask if it's consistent. Otherwise quantifying it shouldn't be done with an incorrect method.

I also agree with Sera about pocket reality feats in general and consistency.

 

[Sera_EX]

Pocket realms as a whole are inconsistent across the board. I'm not talking about specific feats which can only be outliers via comparison with in-universe material, I'm talking about feats as a whole that make no logical sense across fiction. Destroying a planet in Verse A and destroying a planet in Verse B are both Planet level. However a pocket sized planet in Verse A and a pocket sized planet in Verse B likely do not follow the same logical consistency

 

[The_Causality]

Using E=MC┬▓ for all stars in the Galaxy = Approx 10^58 J with the mass of the sun and 150 Billions stars (approx the size of the galaxy)

 

[Kaltias]

The thing is is that we HAVE a way to calc it, and it's called Mass-Energy. It produces outliers a lot, yes, that's why it's hardly used. But we shouldn't use equations that have nothing to do with creating a pocket dimension or matter just because the one that's correct doesn't give you the results you want.

And again, mass-energy of the Sun is 4-B, but we don't rate sun creation feats this way.

My point is essentially that creating a pocket dimension is a creation feat like any other, and it doesn't make sense to treat it differently.

They can be outliers, sure. In which case you ignore them and move on

 

[Kepekley23]

> Using GBE for pocket dimensions

What the flying...

I'll definitely respond.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I feel like what Sera is saying has merit and should be adressed.

Outliers will always be a thing, and that's why I'm saying. In real life, if you wanted to make matter from energy, mass energy would be the equation to use. If I use it in fiction and it comes out inconsistent with other feats, I shouldn't just try unrelated calcing methods to hit some "correct-looking" number.

As for the Sun creation, we'd use GBE, which is actually related to the feat. Sort of like the type of feat we're talking about now.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Using E=MC┬▓ for all stars in the Galaxy = Approx 10^58 J with the mass of the sun and 150 Billions stars (approx the size of the galaxy)

That's still in Multi-Solar System, lol

 

[Kaltias]

I already addressed it? They aren't necessarily inconsistent. You literally posted in the OP a verse with a bunch of tier 7 feats, with the pocket dimensions being among them, but not at all the only tier 7 feats

 

[TriforcePower1]

I think the thing is that we generally considers creation = destruction, which is why we use GBE for both the destruction and creation of celestial objects instead of the E=mc^2. So if we generally consider that creation = destruction, why consider creating Pocket dimensions (or dimensions in general) the only exception to this rule?

 

[Kepekley23]

Using mass energy creation for feats of stellar creation, but suddenly not doing so when it's higher scales getting created is a blatant double standard.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

That has nothing to do with the correlation between explosions and pocket dimensions. It simply means an explosion that large matched up with other feats.

Does being surrounded by good feats make invalid feats justified?

 

[The_Causality]

Yeah but it's nears of this level (and i don't calculate each Black hole and the supermassive in the center of the milky way

Anyway, if this method isn't legit, dunno how processed stellar Dimension creation

 

[Kaltias]

Does being surrounded by good feats make invalid feats justified?

No? Sera said that they are always outliers, and I explained that this isn't true

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

If you were speaking to Sera, it confuses my why you were talking about how "you used in the OP".

And I'm not saying they are outliers. I'm simply saying the way they were calced has no correlation with the feat.