[Genshin] 4-A God-Tiers Upgrade 😰 (🥀)

[Frostyyyy12]

He doesnt

He does. Here’s my text going over it:

- During Zhongli’s second story quest, Historia Antiqua Act II, Jiu is seen near Nantianmen for a short while, he subsides near the Tree. In his voicelines there, he characterises Morax as a ‘Usurper’, this is fundamental because Morax is quite literally using the power that was initially is. This is the same reason Neuvilette calls him a usurper as well.

These are the voicelines:

Jiu: You're a little early... Are you here to witness the resurrection of the most ancient, most awe-inspiring individual in Liyue's history?
Traveller: Do you mean Rex Lapis?
Jiu: Hah... That usurper?

- In the same conversation, Jiu happens to mention this:

Jiu: Are people really happy to just draw a line under the litany of atrocities humanity's ancestors are responsible for, call it "ye olde worlde," and just get on with their merry little lives?

This is seemingly referring to how humanity’s ancestors, that is, the Primordial One committed crimes, the most obvious one being forcefully taking over the Sovereigns’ territory and their powers. He also mentions the ‘Old World’, which is another term to speak about the world before the Invasion of the Primordial One.

- According to Azhdaha’s own statement during Amidst Chaos, the Rock Is Unmoved, he’s older than Mountains and Rivers which coincides with Before Sun and moon:

Jiu: "No, no! It is I, Azhdaha, forged of elemental crystal, bearer of the weight and memories of the earth, older than the mountains and the oceans that decides! I will not swear allegiance to this insect!"

It is believed that the Primordial One was the "eternal throne of the heavens" who came from another world, and that it created the mountains and seas when it remade the world to pave the way for humanity's creation.

- Neuvilette's ability to see memories through Hydro parallels Azhdaha's ability to perceive memories through Geo.

In Amidst Chaos, the Rock Is Unmoved, Jiu mentions this:

Jiu: So here lies the wisdom of the gods? Destroy all deemed redundant, enlist tyrants to ravage the wilderness!

Jiu is talking about how the ‘wisdom of gods’ have destroyed everyone that they deemed redundant, and that they enlisted tyrants to ravage the wilderness. This is very likely alluding to how Phanes destroyed the Seven Sovereigns and replaced them with Archons, that is, the fact that it likely does when placed among all the other Implications i have provided.

In the description of Beneath the Dragon-Queller. Azhdaha is referred to as the Lord of Vishaps, the same description is reused in the English version of In the Light, Beneath the Shadow to refer to the Dragon of Water, i.e, Neuvilette, the Hydro Sovereign.
Furthermore supporting the interpretation of this point, Azhdaha is outright called the ancestor of Geovishaps in his TCG Character Card:

Ancient Geovishap Ancestor: Azhdaha

And he’s called the ancestor of vishaps. So the argument of “he could just be a vishap” is invalidated:

枷锁的隐隐震响与龙祖低沉的怒吼，同记忆一般在山峦间回荡。
"The faint tremors of the shackles and the deep roar of the dragon ancestor resonate together, echoing like a memory among the mountains."

- Azhdaha Archives.

 

[AsterReal]

Can you prove that?

Before becoming the Trilune Goddess, Columbina faced rejection in Teyvat. This meant that her power was constantly being drained to the point where she would have died. Her power would not have been sufficient to sustain a dimension if it had been constantly diminishing.

 

[Saqphire]

Agreed, yeah.

Would that mean you disagree with OP, or do you need time to think?

 

[MSahla]

brother columbina had 0 statements abt creating realm she did and why would rerir need to? why you being hypocrite rn do you see how ridicilous that is anyway i just wanted to know if its valid or not but ig it may be valid

Are u serious? I have show you in OP 2 youtube videos ON SCREEN / VISUAL of her creating the realm. What is this coping?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Before becoming the Trilune Goddess, Columbina faced rejection in Teyvat. This meant that her power was constantly being drained to the point where she would have died. Her power would not have been sufficient to sustain a dimension if it had been constantly diminishing.

So? Doesn't prove the place didn't already exist.

And again, this argument only works if you believe she's sustaining it. Now I don't believe we have enough info for sustaining.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Would that mean you disagree with OP, or do you need time to think?

I disagree currently, indeed.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Are u serious? I have show you in OP 2 youtube videos ON SCREEN / VISUAL of her creating the realm. What is this coping?

The vid only shows her casting and they are transported there. Could just be teleportation, could be creation. We actually don't have enough info to conclude either.

 

[Saqphire]

I disagree currently, indeed.

Could you ping the other two mods then? Cuz iirc they agreed based on your thoughts on it

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Could you ping the other two mods then? Cuz iirc they agreed based on your thoughts on it

Already did lol

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

so let me get this straight aight.

Legit = Shades and Nibelung
Possibly/Likely = the Sovereigns
Not legit = Sinners.

Last two was from @TWILIGHT-OP's personal opinion. Anyone wanna add?

Think about it yourself, there are no statements suggesting the Sovereigns are above the Trilune Authority, but there’s nothing confirming they’re below it either. So my stance for them is to put them at “possibly” or “likely” rating mainly because they all fought with HP and the Shades for 40 years. Shades one was fine tho.

As for the Sinners, that’s a no from me. Rerir fought Weekend Bina, so you can’t really chain-scale that to him.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Think about it yourself, there are no statements suggesting the Sovereigns are above the Trilune Authority, but there’s nothing confirming they’re below it either. So my stance for them is to put them at “possibly” or “likely” rating mainly because they all fought with HP and the Shades for 40 years. Shades one was fine tho.

As for the Sinners, that’s a no from me. Rerir fought Weekend Bina, so you can’t really chain-scale that to him.

Actually, while you're here

I would agree if it was Columbina getting knocked out. The fight ends with Dottore being knocked out though and then she dispels the dimension itself, which doesn't have to lead to her own energy physically keeping it up and running in the first place. In the second video, we don't even see her exert energy at all when summoning it, but we do see her make a special move in the first one so it seems inconsistent to determine her energy values from it.

Ultimately, I do agree the celestial bodies are genuine unlike the previous attempts, but what basis is there to assume she created the stars in the background and thus have Galactic range? The moon, I can get, but the stars behind them showing after she created a moon who's purpose is to darken the sky (and thus indirectly show the stars) don't need to have been created perse. Nor do I see any statement that her dimension was a dimension being created. She coulda created the moon for all I know

I believed so because the second vid she did it again and it was the exact same (with Paimon seemingly referencing that "that's the place they talked about before" that she didn't get to see)

But honestly? Thinking it further, couldn't she just have teleported them there?

Ah, yeah that makes sense then.

We have absolutely no idea. The conclusion OP derived from what we see is just as much as an assumption as what you're suggesting here as there's nothing explicit about the logistics of the feat in the first place, there's no statement about her creating it or sustaining it with energy at all

Thoughts on this?

 

[Frostyyyy12]

As if Rerir wasn’t treated as a bigger threat than Trilune Dottore by Varka. Idk man topic for another day though.

 

[Saqphire]

Already did lol

Oh oke I didn't realise, mb.

 

[MSahla]

I disagree currently, indeed.

Welp. That nukes the entire vote.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Welp. That nukes the entire vote.

Sorry, Saqphire did brought a genuine issue I didn't think about

 

[oberon]

So? Doesn't prove the place didn't already exist.

And again, this argument only works if you believe she's sustaining it. Now I don't believe we have enough info for sustaining.

How do you prove if the place existed before columbina, if columbina made it? From what i remember the space is not shown whatsoever ingame before columbina regains all her power

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Sorry, Saqphire did brought a genuine issue I didn't think about

All saqphire brought was “We don’t know what happened exactly to a concert extent so we cannot conclude anything meaningful”. That is precisely what Puppet and anyone who disagrees says.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

How do you prove if the place existed before columbina, if columbina made it? From what i remember the space is not shown whatsoever ingame before columbina regains all her power

A statement alluding to her creating it at all would help.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Are u serious? I have show you in OP 2 youtube videos ON SCREEN / VISUAL of her creating the realm. What is this coping?

Mind sharing the clips.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I think i can prove this one with Columbina's case.

Here's the first time she created the realm:

During that battle, they were in her dimension.

That up until she defeated Dottore in this scene and her dimension is gone:

@TWILIGHT-OP

 

[Saqphire]

All saqphire brought was “We don’t know what happened exactly to a concert extent so we cannot conclude anything meaningful”. That is precisely what Puppet and anyone who disagrees says.

Y'all just didn't word it properly and Puppet used a genetic fallacy to do it.

Sorry, Saqphire did brought a genuine issue I didn't think about

Glad I could help

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Y'all just didn't word it properly and Puppet used a genetic fallacy to do it.

From what i know, Puppet did not commit a genetic fallacy. He would have committed a genetic fallacy if his claim was—“Since all other examples were false, this one must be false too because they are from the same source”.

Instead, his claim was “Since we know this source is very not so parsimonious towards these types of feats, there is a significant non-zero chance that this one is too, so we should not apply it unless we get more proof.” That was pretty evident to me.

And because nobody could provide the need for more proof, that was not a valid retort to either of our points.

 

[MSahla]

Sorry, Saqphire did brought a genuine issue I didn't think about

Ehh it's okay. I decided to make a CRT just for fun sometimes ago.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

All saqphire brought was “We don’t know what happened exactly to a concert extent so we cannot conclude anything meaningful”. That is precisely what Puppet and anyone who disagrees says.

Except, I am not talking about that one. But the fact there wasn't actually enough evidence to properly argue sustaining, and then through that I went the entire way into questioning the creation at all.

You guys instead focused on the wrong thing, whether the stars were real at all.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Except, I am not talking about that one. But the fact there wasn't actually enough evidence to properly argue sustaining, and then through that I went the entire way into questioning the creation at all.

They work on the same principles. Both the assertions fundamentally lack evidence. If your argument was applied here, you’d just use occam’s razor and say something like “there is no evidence of the negation”, which is what you were doing, but in your case, you couldn’t even apply Occam’s razor.

 

[Saqphire]

From what i know, Puppet did not commit a genetic fallacy. He would have committed a genetic fallacy if his claim was—“Since all other examples were false, this one must be false too because they are from the same source”.

Instead, his claim was “Since we know this source is very not so parsimonious towards these types of feats, there is a significant non-zero chance that this one is too, so we should not apply it unless we get more proof.” That was pretty evident to me.

And because nobody could provide the need for more proof, that was not a valid retort to either of our points.

The reason why the others were rejected was because previously, it was based on stuff that had incentive to be fake like the Theatre, but not this time cuz it's a mf with a celestial body as her whole narrative, so it's like a whole different playing field or whatever. Also does it matter who said what here? We apparently have the same goal in this thread which was to question the OP's arguments and convince staff here that it would be questionable.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

@TWILIGHT-OP

This one’s a bit tricky. You could argue she BFR'd or teleported others. But given the context, though, it seems more likely she didn’t use teleportation here and instead created that place, using her own power.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

This one’s a bit tricky. You could argue she BFR'd or teleported others. But given the context, though, it seems more likely she didn’t use teleportation here and instead created that place, using her own power.

I'd say there isn't enough context, actually. All we see is her casting and poof, there they are now. How do you conclude either work?

 

[Frostyyyy12]

The reason why the others were rejected was because previously, it was based on stuff that had incentive to be fake like the Theatre,

Also because we had zero evidence those were actual celestial bodies. I was still surprised at how they passed the last time around lmao. I also remember arguing with Garrixian about this.

but not this time cuz it's a mf with a celestial body as her whole narrative, so it's like a whole different playing field or whatever.

This is entirely a non-sequitur and has nothing to do with the point.

> Also does it matter who said what here?

Nope.

 

[Saqphire]

This one’s a bit tricky. You could argue she BFR'd or teleported others. But given the context, though, it seems more likely she didn’t use teleportation here and instead created that place, using her own power.

Even if she created it, that doesn't mean she sustained it with her power. That was why lephyr agreed with the CRT cuz he didn't agree with the creation = AP/Dura part in the first place

 

[Furina003]

Can you prove that?

because the creation of a space like this is indeed the ability of the moon goddess, just like Dottore who created our battle arena in it, Columbina did the same thing, that's why the space can changed when Columbina arrived

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

I'd say there isn't enough context, actually. All we see is her casting and poof, there they are now. How do you conclude either work?

That's why i said one could argue for tp/bfr as the scene is already tricky to evaluate.
Tho It’s more likely she altered that place rather than teleporting them. They weren’t taken anywhere else, even after defeating Dottore, they were still in the same location. If Columbina had used teleportation, they wouldn’t have remained there once the fight was over.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

because the creation of a space like this is indeed the ability of the moon goddess, just like Dottore who created our battle arena in it, Columbina did the same thing, that's why the space can changed when Columbina arrived

This statement implies warping more than anything, but given she can do it again, that's fair with me.

The issue now is back to sustaining, unfortunately. This shows exactly that it isn't an AP showing, but rather hax based.

Now I'm firmly against the upgrade.

Edit: Actually, rereading this, the "not real stars!" are being vindicated lol. The statement is specifically about the Moon. That's what she's warping in. Saqphire was fully right.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

This statement implies warping more than anything, but given she can do it again, that's fair with me.

More or less yeah.

 

[Furina003]

because the creation of a space like this is indeed the ability of the moon goddess, just like Dottore who created our battle arena in it, Columbina did the same thing, that's why the space can changed when Columbina arrived

so there's no teleportation or anything, this is a true creation feat using the authority of the 3 moon goddesses, so the creation feat should be fine

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

because the creation of a space like this is indeed the ability of the moon goddess, just like Dottore who created our battle arena in it, Columbina did the same thing, that's why the space can changed when Columbina arrived

This statement implies warping more than anything, but given she can do it again, that's fair with me.

The issue now is back to sustaining, unfortunately. This shows exactly that it isn't an AP showing, but rather hax based.

Now I'm firmly against the upgrade.

Edit: Actually, rereading this, the "not real stars!" are being vindicated lol. The statement is specifically about the Moon. That's what she's warping in. Saqphire was fully right.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Planck69 amended my conclusions, need you to re-vote since you previously agreed with me.

 

[Furina003]

This statement implies warping more than anything, but given she can do it again, that's fair with me.

The issue now is back to sustaining, unfortunately. This shows exactly that it isn't an AP showing, but rather hax based.

Now I'm firmly against the upgrade.

Edit: Actually, rereading this, the "not real stars!" are being vindicated lol. The statement is specifically about the Moon. That's what she's warping in. Saqphire was fully right.

yeah i think this is fair

 

[Saqphire]

Actually, rereading this, the "not real stars!" are being vindicated lol. The statement is specifically about the Moon. That's what she's warping in. Saqphire was fully right.

Crineee lmao that's what I thought. It wouldn't even make sense narratively for Columbina to create stars when her power level in the narrative revolves around moons man

 

[Planck69]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Planck69 amended my conclusions, need you to re-vote since you previously agreed with me.

Hm, fair conclusion. I haven't had time to parse everything in full so put me as neutral for now. If I don't respond again, the thread can move on without me.

 

[Voidnether]

I forgot that I haven't gave my own reasoning whatsoever, but Columbina "creating her own pocket dimension" here visually only shows us that there are 3 Moons. We don't see any stars around said pocket dimension so it's not really a starry sky imo plus I feel like it's just a reality warping feat instead of it being pocket dimensional because we still see the floor being the exact same.

I disagree with Istaroth being able to create a starry sky, we know said starry sky refers to the stars inside False Sky which is already there at the beginning of Genshin Impact even before Phanes created the False Sky as a barrier between the starry sky and the actual universe. I have to say even saying the False Sky governs starry skies are still too much assumptions as admitted here regarding their inconsistencies. I'd prefer the False Sky only governing Teyvat since we do know the 2 Moons were shattered by the Heavenly Principles and that Frost Moon which was outside the False Sky to be pulled down near the False Sky's borders when Columbina pulled the Moon close to the False Sky in the fight against Dottore. I really don't think Asmoday's pocket dimension one (Temple of Space) doesn't actually host real stars, it's the same stars as the one in Teyvat where we see lots but they're all fake obviously.