Creation, Attack Potency, and Pocket Realities

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm not suggesting we use it for any calc, god no. It's very uncertain and has discrepancies as is.

I'm just showing it to prove that empty space does have energy and creating it isn't just a matter of range.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Although I still assert you can't destroy space with energy in the conventional sense.

I agree. You obviously need to have energy to throw your attack, and be able to affect spacetime with it too.

Vegeta blowing up the Room of Spirit and Time is a good example.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Okay, I can agree to that.

It doesn't prove a correlation with explosion energy, but yeah, it does disprove my statement about making space taking no energy.

 

[Jobbo]

By the way, what's up with the 4-D High 3-A? I've only seen one guy who has the tier for this reasoning and he doesn't even have a creation feat.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I think Creation can stay at AP but it shouldn't be assumed to scale to striking strength or combat applicable unless proven.

Agree heavily.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

By the way, what's up with the 4-D High 3-A? I've only seen one guy who has the tier for this reasoning and he doesn't even have a creation feat.

You talking about Mr. Al Gore?

 

[Wokistan]

I don't really like 4D high 3-A either, maybe I'll make a thread on that tomorrow.

 

[Jobbo]

Make that two. I was referring to Giorno.

Anyway, a cutoff point should be established. If you created a spacetime a billion light years across would that be High 3-A?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

4-D High 3-A seems to be more like.

"These 10 guys got together and created the universe."

Low 2-C feats that are done either over time or in group. It's very much an imperfect solution.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No gas, I thought Seiya (when he was that tier for barely hurting a Tier 2) was like, the only 4-D High 3-A and even then I didn't think the difference was needed.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So, let's focus back on the topic of the thread.

We can agree:

• Pocket Dimension feats should be judged based on a combination of size and their contents.

• However, there is no correlation with explosions, so any calcs done that way should be invalidated.

• There isn't any real proper way to calc said feats (Although I think GBE is a somewhat decent alternative)

• The Creation/AP/Tiering Pages need rewording to clarify how we actually treat creation on the site.

 

[Udlmaster]

I thought High 3-A is Infinite 3-D?

Anyway, yeah, I agree with this, the Pocket Reality stuff really only applies to beings of 3-B and below. As everyone above that commonly has "Created X and Y" as their reasoning for their status. And at that level, it makes sense, if you have enough power that you can create a Infinite Universe, then you have enough power to output that into another medium.

 

[NostalgiaTrip]

Nice! This should really help with isorting out SO and feats that can be used to calculate AP.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Let me add one more bullet point:

• We can agree making space takes energy, although how much is hard to say, and can produce unrealistic results. So, making a pocket dimension still counts as a feat it itself, but not one we can reliably calc based on Vacuum Energy.

 

[Jobbo]

Speaking of contents, what if someone creates a space with 5-B nukes in it? Would they themselves become 5-B off that?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

If we agree that space itself doesn't matter, but rather the contents within the space, 4-A is unobtainable. If you're counting all the celestial bodies' GBE combined as the number used, you'd need to create more than 100,000 galaxies before you've made enough stars to achieve 4-A.

Every star's GBE in the galaxy combined is just 1.517x10^52 joules, 4-B, Solar System level. And that's 100 billion stars. In truth, creating a universe and just counter the matter within it would still plop you down into 4-A.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Matt just proved how space has energy, I'll update the OP with that.

However he and I agreed there isn't a correlation with explosion energy.

 

[Crzer07]

So creating a less than Tier 2 realm with just space/time is unratable? And below Tier 2 ratings can only be derived via matter/energy.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So creating a less than Tier 2 realm with just space/time is unratable?

Unratable and Uncalcable are different terms. You don't need a calc to give something a tier.

At the very least everyone here can agree that explosion formulas have nothing to do with creation.

Matter/Energy typically makes outliers and needs very specific and strict justifications.

 

[SomebodyData]

What if the pocket reality is created via an explosion? Soecifically to produce energy.

Also, how do you calc vacuum energy?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Can you give me one example where someone makes a pocket reality with an explosion?

Read through the link Matt gave, there is a number of joules per square meter of empty space, however it is highly variable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You can't calc it. It's just proof that the vacuum of space contains energy and does the size of a pocket dimension matters

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Also, how do you calc vacuum energy?

"the vacuum energy of free space has been estimated to be 109 joules (102 ergs) per cubic meter.[2] However, in both quantum electrodynamics(QED) and stochastic electrodynamics (SED), consistency with the principle of Lorentz covariance and with the magnitude of the Planck constantsuggest a much larger value of 10113 joules per cubic meter.[3][4] This huge discrepancy is known as the cosmological constant problem."

Uh, this is why I said not to calc it.

It's 10e-9 to 10e113.

That's a pretty big gap.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So, can we all at least agree that an explosion forumula is an incorrect standard for pocket reality feats?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Probably, yeah.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Dargoo Well Puella Magi, actually. https://youtu.be/70y9OIxDbEU To be more specific, Kyubey's Puella Magi System revolves around the despair produced causing them to be come witches, which in turn causes them to mass produce energy to stop the heat death of the universe.

I see, I see. Imma look if perhaps there are any current solutions to the cosmological constant problem, though I wonder how extreme it would be to calc either end lol

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Somebody

I disagree about PMMM, however this might not be the beast thread to debate that. Could you shoot me a message on my wall?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It'd be hilarious if there was a series that actually used Vacuum energy. Anyways, it's really advanced science I don't understand lol

 

[SomebodyData]

Okkk

 

[Imaginym]

If the issue is the amount of energy has a huge numerical range, why not have the option to calculate things using the minimum energy value specified?

I mean, whether we know the exact value or not, we know the minimum & maximum ends of the range, don't we? So isn't at least an option when other means may not be an option?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Dargoo

Create one cubic meter of space? BAM. Instantly 353 quintillion times over baseline 3-A.

Or, going by the low end, three times less than the kinetic energy of a snail.

 

[CNBA3]

Wouldn't that mean like Kaguya Oototsuki be Solar System level or something since her pocket dimensions have suns and planets?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I really don't want to be in the wiki that uses vacuum energy to calc dimension creation feats lmao. At that point we're severely overthinking things. My initial argument was more to do that a dimension containing star clusters being a 4-A feat is just a natural conclusion. Just like creating a universe is 3-A / Low 2-C.

But since the conversation turned to "You don't need energy to create space", I showed that as hard scientific proof that empty space does contain energy.

It's not a suggestion for how to calculate dimension feats. Specially because even the low-end would result in absurd results.

For instance.

10e-9 joules per cubic meter? Okay, a pocket space with the following dimensions 1000m (height) x 1000m (width) x 1000m (depth). Equals 1,000,000,000m┬│

... Which results in only 10 joules.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I agree with Matt. Yeah, I think that's all we should treat it as, evidence for energy in the first place, otherwise we risk either massively downplaying or massively wanking the feats because of how split the scientific community is on it.

 

[CNBA3]

Then can we just state the way it is?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Then can we just state the way it is?

No, explosions being used for pocket reality feats seem to be agreed to be unuseable, which would include stuff like the PMMM feats.

That and we need to update the Creation/AP/Tiering pages.

 

[CNBA3]

I mean, I thought that was how it was, example, Kaguya's expansive truth seeking ball feat that would have destroyed her dimension to create a new one wasn't accepted

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Creation through destruction would allow explosion feats I think.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Sort of?

If the action that caused the creation was an explosion sure; I'm just talking about a baseline for pocket reality feats that don't have explosions that caused them.

I can agree with that for the most part though, like a punch that causes the Big Bang/etc.

 

[CNBA3]

Creation through destruction would allow explosion feats I think.

But in order to do that required energy from a planet's population