Construction/Building Ability

[Antvasima]

Thanks.

 

[Eficiente]

The wiki certainly doesn't need rules and notions that make no sense at all, one more time I will say that this is just dumb. "if the character requires time to build their structures, preparation should be listed instead" Ah so if you construct something but it takes you time then you don't get a power literally called construction, what? Especially with how bias "time" even is there.

That's a fair point, but if a character is preparing to end a fight they're currently engaging by killing the opponent, then they're likely using a certain method of combat or whatever that they have previously already learned beforehand. In another case if a character is preparing say, a final attack, say they're charging it up throughout the battle, would the charging up of the attack really count as preparation?

If either of the two examples above are along the lines of what you're saying, then I still believe that the construction ability would be valid as the characters who can build something mid-fight to prepare for an attack later, are still building these structures in a short amount of time. The ability does not aim to replace preparation on profiles in any way, but is simply going to be an ability that will very often come with Preparation simply due to the nature of the power.

I still feel like i'm misinterpreting what you're saying though, sorry if that's the case.

First sentence, same can be said about prep. Second sentence, same thing I told to Butter, notable things go as prep, charging an attack is nothing, anything that would go as Construction would go as prep in that example.

Well no, "killing the opponent" & "charging an attack" do not go along the lines of what I was saying. I never said that the ability would aim to replace preparation, why are you doing that?

I'm fine with the power as long as it's clear that it's not gained through prep.

I don't think you read all of this, otherwise I would like reasons as to why this would be fine.

I agree with Antoniofer's proposal, but think that fixing prep would be better, how much time is going to take dealing with this thread?

 

[KieranH10]

But building in the middle of a battle wouldn't count as a "Notable thing" either by that standard, as they're simply doing something to aid them in the battle currently, they're not setting up something (Or "Preparing" something) for later on in the battle "Notable things go as prep." Building wouldn't be notable because it's only stopping oncoming attacks that are currently happening, by your standard even charging up attacks that could potentially end a battle once "prepared" wouldn't count as preparation, so why would building something that likely wont even harm the opponent count? Currently by your own rules, the construction ability seemingly would not go as preparation.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Using that logic, nearly doing anything is a form of preparation. Really. I think it's being too broad to try and call these abilities preparation. As prep is typically Pre Battle. And that's what we should keep it like. Preparing Pre to a battle. Cause if we say The Fortnite guy building his stuff mid fight is preparing. Anything qualifies as preparing. It gets too broad. And we don't want to be too broad. Steve sees an attack coming and uses speed to build a small wall as defense. Fortnite guy sees a bullet coming and builds a quick wall to block it. This would be the same as say

Twilight sees an attack coming and activates a force field to block it. I'd that preparation? No. We should keep what qualifies as Preparation as doing it Pre to the battle. As that's what prep is supposed to be a mean.

 

[Eficiente]

But building in the middle of a battle wouldn't count as a "Notable thing" either by that standard, as they're simply doing something to aid them in the battle currently, they're not setting up something (Or "Preparing" something) for later on in the battle "Notable things go as prep." Building wouldn't be notable because it's only stopping oncoming attacks that are currently happening, by your standard even charging up attacks that could potentially end a battle once "prepared" wouldn't count as preparation, so why would building something that likely wont even harm the opponent count? Currently by your own rules, the construction ability seemingly would not go as preparation.

Yes it would. All of that is just bias.

"doing something to aid them in the battle currently"

Until that last word all of that was prep, it being "currently" doesn't matter at all for the same reason I said before that you ignored; the preparing isn't objectively to the literal process of battling, but to win it as well.

"they're not setting up something (Or "Preparing" something)"

Lol "setting up something" could literally be the name of this Construction power if it weren't 3 words to say something that can be said in 1.

"Building wouldn't be notable because it's only stopping oncoming attacks that are currently happening"

What the hell? What is this Fornite? So now a power literally called "Construction" has this limitation as well? Do I have to say that this is wrong or.. ?

"by your standard even charging up attacks that could potentially end a battle once "prepared" wouldn't count as preparation, so why would building something that likely wont even harm the opponent count?"

Ok, let's go with the Fornite stuff here, "magically" (as in, it just happens) making walls is far more notable than charging up attacks. This are not things that need to be said, yet here I am.

"Currently by your own rules, the construction ability seemingly would not go as preparation"

By your bias interpretation of my rules, because you can't interpret things in more than one way in the same way you couldn't gasp prep being more than just to the process and not to the end result. I sincerely don't know why you want to insist with this.

 

[Eficiente]

Using that logic, nearly doing anything is a form of preparation. Really. I think it's being too broad to try and call these abilities preparation. As prep is typically Pre Battle. And that's what we should keep it like. Preparing Pre to a battle. Cause if we say The Fortnite guy building his stuff mid fight is preparing. Anything qualifies as preparing. It gets too broad. And we don't want to be too broad. Steve sees an attack coming and uses speed to build a small wall as defense. Fortnite guy sees a bullet coming and builds a quick wall to block it. This would be the same as say
Twilight sees an attack coming and activates a force field to block it. I'd that preparation? No. We should keep what qualifies as Preparation as doing it Pre to the battle. As that's what prep is supposed to be a mean.

No dude, take no offense on this but just using common sense tells one what is prep and what isn't, which should come up as something natural. By your logic of what my logic is then I can say that anything is Construction as well. Also no, prep isn't pre battle for the same reasons you ignored before.

 

[Theglassman12]

I'm with Eficiente here. Construction feels a tad bit redundant when Preparation essentially covers it up.

 

[KieranH10]

"The preparing isn't objectively to the literal process of battling, but to win it as well"

I understand that characters don't prepare for a battle, they prepare to win a battle, which is one reason why construction wouldn't be preparation, because characters aren't building to win a battle, most of the time construction is used to defend themselves, which wouldn't be winning a battle, if anything it's simply prolonging battles.

"setting up something could literally be the name of this construction power"

Actually the full quote was "they're not setting up something (Or "Preparing" something) for later on in the battle" as preparing would be, they're not building something to win later on, they're building something to stop themselves being shot down. At least use full quotes before calling someone else biassed

"What the hell? What is this Fornite? So now a power literally called "Construction" has this limitation as well?"

No, commonly building is used to stop oncoming attacks, Fortnite is actually a good example that has been brought up many times of what this power would be, like i've already said, the fortnite character is not restricted to only build during a battle, they're fully capable of building before fights start and taking a tactical approach.

"Ok, let's go with the Fornite stuff here, "magically" (as in, it just happens) making walls is far more notable than charging up attacks. This are not things that need to be said, yet here I am."

First off, you were literally just talking about not being valid here, and also, how is making a wall far more notable than charging up a potentially fight ending attack.

"I sincerely don't know why you want to insist with this"

Because I disagree with it being preparation because i've never seen any examples of a character being capable of preparing for a fight they're currently engaging in.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I believe it works.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that Eficiente seems to make sense, but please try to take a break to relax and calm down so you do not respond in an agitated state in the future... and yes, I am aware that I also sometimes have this problem when I am mentally overexerted.

 

[KieranH10]

I'm trying to keep the conversation calm but I don't see how i'm being biassed, I apologise for the remark though. wont happen again.

 

[Antvasima]

I was not referring to you.

 

[KieranH10]

oh ok lol, I thought i'd said something without noticing.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Eficiente]

>"I understand that characters don't prepare for a battle, they prepare to win a battle, which is one reason why construction wouldn't be preparation, because characters aren't building to win a battle, most of the time construction is used to defend themselves, which wouldn't be winning a battle, if anything it's simply prolonging battles."

If you mean that now you understand that then ok. About the other stuff, the building doesn't need to be to win a battle, nor for others to defend themselves, looking at the meaning of the word shows that. Building is preparation because the meaning of the former word fits within the meaning of the latter. Characters fighting each others doesn't matter to it. This brings again the thing about how there is no need to make new notions and rules that make no sense, I don't have the time to list all the reasons as to why that is but just know that it really shouldn't be done.

>"Actually the full quote was "they're not setting up something (Or "Preparing" something) for later on in the battle" as preparing would be, they're not building something to win later on, they're building something to stop themselves being shot down. At least use full quotes before calling someone else biassed"

You missed the point entirely. What you define there isn't preparing but your notion of what preparing is, which is wrong. You want this Construction power to be a thing so you say that preparing is something that is not, which is bias.

>"No, commonly building is used to stop oncoming attacks, Fortnite is actually a good example that has been brought up many times of what this power would be, like i've already said, the fortnite character is not restricted to only build during a battle, they're fully capable of building before fights start and taking a tactical approach."

Yet before you said; "Building wouldn't be notable because it's only stopping oncoming attacks that are currently happening". It kinda looks like you lied before to make your power don't look like prep, which didn't work either way.

>"First off, you were literally just talking about not being valid here, and also, how is making a wall far more notable than charging up a potentially fight ending attack."

No I didn't, I was amazed by the "Building wouldn't be notable because it's only stopping oncoming attacks that are currently happening" 'cause it's super limited and something that would come specifically from that game. The charged attack being a "potentially fight ending attack" is a very, very bias thing to say that matters as much as a fictional character defeating another fictional character, when listing powers only "charging up an attack" matters, which anyone can do, not the case for making walls at the speed of fast, thus the latter matters more.

Further help is very much appreciated here.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask some other staff members to help out here if you wish.

 

[KieranH10]

gonna bump this, waiting on other members to comment as I feel this discussion is going in circles...

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. The conclusions seem to lean towards not accepting this though.

 

[KieranH10]

ok, i'll wait for Efficiente to get more members if he wishes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Ok so my count is if I'm correct

For: Buttersamuri, KieranH10, Qawsed, Myself, Dino Ranger Black, Ant?

Against: Efi, Antoniofer, The Glassman

 

[Antvasima]

I am mostly neutral but leaning towards agreeing with Eficiente.

 

[Antoniofer]

I'm also neutral, but if people will create powers about proficiency I rather suggest a power that cover them all.

 

[KieranH10]

I'd be fine with a proficiency page, but wouldn't it be extremely vague and could cover an abundance of things, making specifying the type that the character has pretty much just the same as giving the character another power.

Precise powers, while more work, allow for a better understanding of a characters abilities rather than giving one power for a bunch of things a character may be proficient in.

 

[Eficiente]

We have dealt with poorly done powers after they were made, some people is just judging things based on how they look in a vacuum, meanwhile anyone can tell that the ones disagreeing with the power actually read the arguments here. That should say something, to count who agrees and who disagrees with this does really nothing next to the importance of the arguments.

If this keeps going it will just get more users agreeing with it. I have nothing new to say as my points were already made. That as well should say something, if you know what I mean.

So I'm gonna unfollow this.

 

[KieranH10]

Look, i'm not trying to be awkward but I just don't understand what you mean when you mention preparing during a battle, I don't see how it's possible, and we purposefully give time before battles because of the definition of preparation, sure you could say that you're preparing the builds that you make while you're fighting, but you're not really, your just building, preparation as a power on this wiki is a power we give to characters who are stronger when given time. I'm not judging preparation based on my own personal opinions and i'm not being biassed, i'm basing my views on preparation as a power, and how this wiki treats that power.

And I am reading your arguments, at this point it seems like you think i'm not even bothering anymore, if I weren't bothering, I wouldn't still be trying to discuss this.

I'm still willing to discuss if anyone else disagrees with this and wants to talk...

 

[InfiniteSped]

Preparation is very vague and covers a ton of completely unrelated stuff, so I agree with adding something specific to building stuff, especially if it can be done mid-battle.

 

[Antvasima]

Eficiente has a good point. I suppose that this seems to have been rejected then.

 

[KieranH10]

Multiple reasons as to why Efficiente's argument is flawed have been mentioned, and multiple people think that his argument isn't valid altogether. I believe the construction power should be created or the Prearation page needs completely revamping, not just editing with slightly better wording, because as it is at the minute, the power is very unclear if Efficiente was correct that you can prepare during a battle (Which I still disagree with but it doesn't look like i'm getting anywhere at this point)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Antvasima]

You should probably ask more staff members to comment here.

 

[KieranH10]

ok, I will later.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks.

 

[KieranH10]

I've messaged a few more staff members.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks.

 

[KieranH10]

bump

 

[KieranH10]

seems this thread has lost attention...

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so.

 

[Buttersamuri]

I haven't spoken much here as most of my points have been covered by what Kieran has been saying. But yea. I still stand by Preparation should stay pre to a battle as that's what preparation is and what it's meant to be. We can't call every skill someone can do immediately preparation, else basically everyone gets prep for planning anything mid fight.

If they can build large structures or traps mid fight due to an initial skill or power like Fortnite dude or Naughty Bear. That isn't preparation. That's a special skill. If they can't build the trap or structure in the middle of the fight and need time to prepare to make it, then that's preparation. The difference is solid enough that it should remain separate. The Fortnite dude builds a town on the spot vs Someone who builds a tower cause they had a week to prepare and do such. Pretty large and notable skill difference. And sometimes supernatural.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that those are good points. At the very least, trap mastery may be a useful ability. Giving any regular real world construction worker the namesake ability seems redundant for our purposes though.