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Consistency of Saitama’s normal punch, along with an armored Boros durability suggestion.

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I'm having a hard time seeing why there is a proposed comparability (or superiority) in the ratings of Released Boros and Orochi. Both got limbs blasted off by Saitama's normal punch. That doesn't make Boros superior to Orochi.

I'd say at most it makes Meteoric Burst Boros superior to Orochi because his chest wasn't exploded by one of Saitama's normal punches.
 
Damage3245 said:
I'm having a hard time seeing why there is a proposed comparability (or superiority) in the ratings of Released Boros and Orochi. Both got limbs blasted off by Saitama's normal punch. That doesn't make Boros superior to Orochi.

I'd say at most it makes Meteoric Burst Boros superior to Orochi because his chest wasn't exploded by one of Saitama's normal punches.
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This was all explained in the OP
The punch against released Boros was not the first punch of the battle, and the 2nd punch of battles cannot be used because all the evidence refers specifically to the one-punch
saitama using more effort as the battle continues is also how he keeps up with garou’s evolutions, it’s inconsistent
the scaling comes from released Boros being above Saitama’s FIRST punch.
 
ZillertheBucko said:
This was all explained in the OP
The punch against released Boros was not the first punch of the battle, and the 2nd punch of battles cannot be used because all the evidence refers specifically to the one-punch
saitama using more effort as the battle continues is also how he keeps up with garou’s evolutions, it’s inconsistent
the scaling comes from released Boros being above Saitama’s FIRST punch.
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Released Boros is not above Saitama's first punch based on what I've seen. I do not support the confidence scaling.
 
Damage3245 said:
Released Boros is not above Saitama's first punch based on what I've seen. I do not support the confidence scaling.
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You literally completely failed to address the points dude.
armored Boros felt the punch, released Boros thought he was above it
this is so simple.
 
Damage3245 said:
I'm having a hard time seeing why there is a proposed comparability (or superiority) in the ratings of Released Boros and Orochi. Both got limbs blasted off by Saitama's normal punch. That doesn't make Boros superior to Orochi.

I'd say at most it makes Meteoric Burst Boros superior to Orochi because his chest wasn't exploded by one of Saitama's normal punches.
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Basically.

The first punch that Orochi threw against Orochi would be the same one that Saitama threw against Boros at first.

So let's say this punch scales to High 6-A for splattering Orochi's limbs. 5 Exatons.

Boros, despite being hit by this, believed he could still defeat Saitama in his released state. Which means at the least he'd believe he was comparable to or superior to that High 6-A punch.

And Boros confidence scaling is reliable since he can detect and sense energy.

Now, with that in mind. Your next question is probably "Well Saitama's very next punch was enough to destroy Boros' arm"

The argument here would be that Saitama simply increases the potency of his strikes as the fight goes on.

Which after debating Ziller on this I've come to realize isn't actually that outlandish.

We clearly see Saitama putting more effort into the Boros fight every single time he attacks him.

The first punch is his standard one-punch which barely does anything to Boros. The second destroys a stronger Boros' arm. The third could dent his Meteoric Burst form. The fourth he launches CNP. And the fifth he ends it with serious Punch.

In the case of Garou, we get the same progression.
 
Phoenks said:
Boros, despite being hit by this, believed he could still defeat Saitama in his released state. Which means at the least he'd believe he was comparable to or superior to that High 6-A punch.

And Boros confidence scaling is reliable since he can detect and sense energy.
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Let me put it this way. Boros felt Saitama completely obliterate his arm and still thought he could win even after that.

I'm not trusting Boros' confidence.
 
Damage3245 said:
Let me put it this way. Boros felt Saitama completely obliterate his arm and still thought he could win even after that.

I'm not trusting Boros' confidence.
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After that, yes, he still does, but it's for a different reason entirely.

Which is that he could win the battle of attrition due to his stamina and regenerative abilities. He believed he'd simply chip away at Saitama without him being able to heal.

This is different from the start because he directly mentions to Saitama that he is surprised that he could last against Released Form. Which would refer to strength rather than the "battle of attrition" stuff.

This further proves Ziller's point by the way. Because he was confident he could win through strength from after the first punch with his Released Form (Proven because he was surprised Saitama didn't die after an exchange). But after the second he immediately went to the "I will win the battle of attrition" belief. Which would infer that the second punch was stronger.
 
Damage3245 said:
Let me put it this way. Boros felt Saitama completely obliterate his arm and still thought he could win even after that.

I'm not trusting Boros' confidence.
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You are taking this so insanely out of context it’s baffling
He thought he could win a battle of attrition after his arm came off, which is perfectly reasonable given his regen
He was surprised that Saitama was able to keep up with his released form after the FIRST punch
stop ignoring the order of events

also “completely obliterated” is a strech because in the anime it was just torn off, and the arm itself was still intact, so it wasn’t that massive
 
Damage I’m going to be honest, you should really be focusing a bit more on this thread rather than jumping onto new ones that open considering that this really did not need be going for even 1/4th this long…so don’t blame me for needing staff approval (for the widely agreed AP revision)
ZillertheBucko said:
You are taking this so insanely out of context it’s baffling
He thought he could win a battle of attrition after his arm came off, which is perfectly reasonable given his regen
He was surprised that Saitama was able to keep up with his released form after the FIRST punch
stop ignoring the order of events

also “completely obliterated” is a strech because in the anime it was just torn off, and the arm itself was still intact, so it wasn’t that massive
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Now that I’ve corrected the order of events, do you have anything to say about it? In particular, anything beyond “I do not see enough evidence to scale released Boros above Orochi”?
 
@ZillertheBucko I've been responding to this thread today.

And me not having the motivation to focus on one particular CRT doesn't prevent me from being able to quickly evaluate other CRTs.
 
I empathize with that reasoning entirely


….for the first 3 weeks. It’s been over 2 months. We agree that 2+ months is a lot right?
 
ZillertheBucko said:
I empathize with that reasoning entirely


….for the first 3 weeks. It’s been over 2 months. We agree that 2+ months is a lot right?
Click to expand...
Pardon me for not really caring about the CRT, but at the very least I've been more engaging with it than literally every other staff member, right?


Anyway, I don't think the Boros confidence scaling is worth anything to be honest.

Exhibit A) Despite Boros being able to "sense Saitama's energy" and exchange a large number of blows with him, Boros is confident that one hit from his energy beam will vaporize Saitama completely.

He was wrong. Saitama was unharmed.

Exhibit B) Boros declared "the end of the fight was near" and believed that Saitama was wounded from their exchange (and that he would continue to accumulate wounds).

He was wrong. Saitama was unharmed and Boros would never be able to harm him.


Confidence scaling in the OPM is repeatedly shown to be the most unreliable thing in the world. Need I remind you of the times that Speed of Sound Sonic has kept trying to attack Saitama and thinking that he's caught up to him after his training, only to be shown that he never stood a chance? Or that Genos thought that Saitama would need help from the hero association to fight Gouketsu?

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to vote in favor of upgrading Boros because "he thought he could fight Saitama" when characters being overconfident or cocky or ignorant or just flat-out wrong is a constantly repeated trope in OPM. That's great for you if you believe it, but I don't.
 
So your argument in response relies on the “confidence scaling was wrong” stuff that is grounded in a fundamental misunderstanding of how confidence scaling works and why we have always been fine with using it
This is the same vicious cycle of a crt with confidence scaling being made, one guy saying “but he was wrong” and then people being forced to explain for the 100th time why it doesn’t matter. We have been through this time and time again and by this point you should already know 100% well the problem with your counter. I’m just disappointed

I’ll respond to you later…
 
@ZillertheBucko; it's not a misunderstanding. I just disagree with you on this topic.

Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they've fundamentally misunderstood the argument.
 
I think Ziller means that while Boros was wrong in his beliefs he still thought that his poewrups/energy blasts would be enough to overpower the amount of power Saitama shows him every time

Like X Character gets beaten by Y Character easily, X Character enters a new form/uses a new attack thinking this attack will be enough to beat Y Character now.

Wheter this new form/attack is enough doesn't matter, what matters is that X Character thinks it will be enough to defeat Y Character despite the initial apparent gap in power
 
Recon1511 said:
I think Ziller means that while Boros was wrong in his beliefs he still thought that his poewrups/energy blasts would be enough to overpower the amount of power Saitama shows him every time
Click to expand...
That doesn't make Boros correct though when his judgement has been called into question multiple times.
 
Damage3245 said:
That doesn't make Boros correct though when his judgement has been called into question multiple times.
Click to expand...
I mean it's the judgement of his own power no?

If he thinks that his Released Form energy blasts will be enough to vaporize Saitama despite him tanking his punches with no issue then that means that his energy blasts are considerably more powerful.
 
Damage3245 said:
Exhibit A) Despite Boros being able to "sense Saitama's energy" and exchange a large number of blows with him, Boros is confident that one hit from his energy beam will vaporize Saitama completely.

He was wrong. Saitama was unharmed.
Click to expand...
Being wrong does not mean shit. Confidence scaling does not mean it’s true, it just means that Boros knows that being able to hit his armored form with a high 6-A attack doesn’t mean that they can beat his released form
and Boros describes saitama’s energy as limitless, and only considered himself to have surpassed the limit of living beings when he went meteoric burst. In other words, the “limit of living beings” in Boros’ perspective was his released form, and clearly he sensed that the first normal punch hadn’t surpassed that and only realized that Saitama was above it after he got his arm knocked off
And again, Boros quite literally directly felt the power when saitama punched his armored form, there is no way in hell you’re saying he took a high 6-A attack, has a sixth sense sense telling him how strong saitama was passively, and then released Boros would be completely unable to estimate how strong the punch was…the punch that literally hit him. At this rate might as well remove all confidence scaling to ever exist, because there is literally no example more blatantly usable than this.
Damage3245 said:
Exhibit B) Boros declared "the end of the fight was near" and believed that Saitama was wounded from their exchange (and that he would continue to accumulate wounds).

He was wrong. Saitama was unharmed and Boros would never be able to harm him.
Click to expand...
He was doing that based on saitama’s wide eye reaction, not necessarily any visible wounds
and he literally said it was a battle of attrition, meaning that he didn’t even think he was on par with him physically at that moment and would only abuse regeneration. But you know this, because I assume you actually read the scene. Boros being wrong here is irrelevant as well. It’s basically ZombieMan vs carnage kabuto from his perspective.
He didn’t know his upper limit, but he assumed that he’d be able to do chip damage over time, which is reasonable when he was using a form that didn’t use much energy and would’ve had ages to regen over and over.
Damage3245 said:
Confidence scaling in the OPM is repeatedly shown to be the most unreliable thing in the world. Need I remind you of the times that Speed of Sound Sonic has kept trying to attack Saitama and thinking that he's caught up to him after his training, only to be shown that he never stood a chance? Or that Genos thought that Saitama would need help from the hero association to fight Gouketsu?
Click to expand...
Then remove all confidence scaling and see how that goes, Jesus Christ dude.
We literally use this for EVERY OTHER ******* CHARACTER except Boros, the one guy who actually can sense energy without even needing to feel it…except he DID feel it.
Go ahead. Remove all confidence scaling justifications. Just do it, since you think this makes any sense whatsoever as a counterargument.
Need I remind you that we quite literally scale Gouketsu above the meteor with a possibly rating due to genos, and that’s with an even less reliable third party that didn’t directly take the impact of the meteor, unlike Boros who is a much more reliable narrator than….genos.

Your counterargument is completely impossible and beyond biased. If you’re dismissing this on the grounds of it being confidence scaling, then you absolutely HAVE to remove the confidence scaling on every other character who is less reliable. This is ridiculous.
 
Damage3245 said:
@ZillertheBucko; it's not a misunderstanding. I just disagree with you on this topic.

Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they've fundamentally misunderstood the argument.
Click to expand...
It is a fundamental misunderstanding beyond any kind of doubt. The entire point of confidence scaling is that they’re allowed to be proven wrong due to reasons they couldn’t have known. So what if “he was wrong though”???????????? We’re not scaling Boros to 4-A with this, we’re scaling him above a perceived tier difference. We’re not saying Boros can beat saitama because he said so, we’re saying Boros was surprised when a guy he already knows was high 6-A was able to keep up with his released form (because he was secretly 4-A)
Boros being 4-A was proven wrong, Boros being high 6-A was not proven wrong, because that was just his perception of Saitama’s strength. This isn’t Boros can beat Saitama, this is saying released Boros was confident he could replicate the feat of saitama hitting him with a high 6-A punch and still thought he’d win
 
Ziller as much as I do wish that your arch nemesis and main antagonist final boss Damage would continue interacting with you on this thread...

I think it is time we call in some other mods to review it. Damage clearly seems to have his opinion set and I don't think he is planning on changing it.
 
That’s called being cheap, and I’d much prefer to make Damage understand that I am only using a more reliable version of the same system we’ve always used rather than just overruling him without having to follow through with the debate
that’s the very problem that I’ve had with this system for a while now… anyways, I’d just prefer to keep going, especially since Damage has already gone and dropped a disagree.
 
The one thing I can say good about this though is that Damage hasn’t gone with the strat of “I disagree and will close this thread immediately”
So despite me being annoyed by the argument itself I’m glad that we’re still talking about it, so I’m choosing for the moment to respond with the same level of not being cheap
 
well there's a lot to catch up on so I don't think we should really be hasty with getting more staff involved...
I kinda just put the link in general thread cause I couldn't bump it yet
 
Damage3245 said:
How about something like this for his speed rating:

Varies; up to FTL when casual (Saitama frequently fights at much slower speeds than he is truly capable of, but has shown he can effortlessly dodge Post-Sage Centipede Garou's attacks when not taking the fight seriously. Consistently blitzes most enemies he fights against), up to MFTL when serious (Saitama could blitz Awakened Garou across the surface of Io, and can get progressively faster over time with Accelerated Development)
Click to expand...
Not sure how to feel about this, making ratings for when a character is holding back feels really strange and not how we usually make these profiles.

Plus I still think it's useless for scaling, as Saitama just always use enough speed to defeat his opponent.

I would appreciate it if someone would summarize the arguments in this thread though.
 
Therefir said:
Not sure how to feel about this, making ratings for when a character is holding back feels really strange and not how we usually make these profiles.

Plus I still think it's useless for scaling, as Saitama just always use enough speed to defeat his opponent.

I would appreciate it if someone would summarize the arguments in this thread though.
Click to expand...
Fair point, yeah. I was trying to reach a suitable compromise with Ziller but you may be right that the format isn't consistent with our other profiles anyway.
 
well it doesn't really have to be consistent when Saitama is an extraordinary case
but also the "compromise" we came to basically doesn't change the profile at all, so it doesn't really matter unless you wanna go back and forth again
since the purpose was to say that saitama is at least ftl when casual, which actually impacts the scaling, but that was rejected entirely
the main thing we're on right now is AP though, so again if you're joining in then I'd recommend reading through there since it has all the important scans and counterarguments
 
ZillertheBucko said:
Armored Boros is probably going to be at least high 6-C likely far higher
should be stronger than gouketsu and the meteor who were completely obliterated with one punch, as well as stronger than Groribas who scales above 6-C
Click to expand...
also therefir this might be a good place to read from when you're done with the OP since this is basically where the relevant discussion starts
 
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