Consistency of Saitama’s normal punch, along with an armored Boros durability suggestion.

[Coomandar]

bump for you

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Another coom W

 

[Coomandar]

as usual

 

[Gasper]

Bump

 

[EnderLord8]

Well, since this thread is so slow, I'll give my opinion... I don't know about the speed measurement, but I agree with OP about the AP issue being consistent...

Surviving a punch with killing intent from Saitama is portrayed as being impressive within the work, so it makes sense to have a minimum amount of AP in his opening normal punches, so I agree with the AP scale.

As for speed... Well I don't know, I'm pretty neutral on that and I really don't feel like reading the bible that was the discussion of this topic for the speed scale side.

So my vote is agreeing with the AP session and being neutral on speed.

 

[Phoenks]

Oh, I disagree with this thread btw.

I don't think Saitama's normal punches are consistent at all still. They are definitely stronger than casual ones but to an unquantifiable degree because every time he normal punches something they still have been enough to one-shot/significantly damage his foes. (Not counting Cosmic Garou)

Thus there's not really a measurement there. The only thing you might be able to say is that normal punch < CSRC.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I don't think Saitama's normal punches are consistent at all still. They are definitely stronger than casual ones but to an unquantifiable degree because every time he normal punches something they still have been enough to one-shot/significantly damage his foes. (Not counting Cosmic Garou).

Uh can you give something more specific? And what about all the stuff in the OP?
And I’m not sure what you mean by this argument, because I am saying that normal punches are always able to one shot, until Boros
combined with the fact that the guidebook says his one punch strategy would no longer work, when the first punch was taken by Boros without even the need for his regen or immortality….

 

[EnderLord8]

While Orochi was turned into paste

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Also Phoenks, what do you mean be “normal punch” and “casual punch”
I don’t remember there being a distinction, but if you agree that normal punches are stronger then that’s an important detail that can’t be left out

 

[Kachon123]

Oh, I disagree with this thread btw.

I don't think Saitama's normal punches are consistent at all still. They are definitely stronger than casual ones but to an unquantifiable degree because every time he normal punches something they still have been enough to one-shot/significantly damage his foes. (Not counting Cosmic Garou)

Thus there's not really a measurement there. The only thing you might be able to say is that normal punch < CSRC.

You didn't even address his arguments.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

You didn't even address his arguments.

He says he is going to soon

 

[Phoenks]

if every punch really is in a vastly different range depending on how casual he's feeling at the moment, then it wouldn't be a "signature" attack really, now would it. In fact if every attack truly is completely inconsistent, then there is absolutely NO way (from an author intent standpoint)it would make any sense for that statement to exist. But hey, maybe you're not convinced, that's fair, it's just one standout thing, and it's a guidebook statement only, it's not exactly decisive of anything.

His casual punches definitely do have a baseline level of power when intending to kill but it isn't measurable really.

We just know it's enough to kill almost any dragon level.

Now, if saitama really throws a a high 6-A normal punch one second, a high 6-C the next, and a 9-B one another day, then this scene would make absolutely no sense at all.

The first punch in the series was casual. Not a normal punch at all. He had no expression and was just throwing his fist.

Also, wdym? Saitama there is pretty new to his overwhelming power as far as I know. So him being surprised by one-shotting shit effortlessly makes sense regardless. The whole point is just to establish to the reader that even his casual strength is enough to one shot things, and that upsets him.

Idk what the argument really is here. It makes sense as an opening scene regardless of the tiering here.

If saitama is truly just controlling his power and hitting with different force every fight, then why would this be something he's mad about, since he knows damn well that his full power can literally one shot anybody to begin with. Would he really give a **** if a 7-C monster survived a 9-B punch from him? In fact, it would imply that saitama would see a 9-A who survived a 9-B punch as impressive, but also get pissed that a 5-B monster couldn't take a 5-A punch, which is a completely ridiculous concept.

Saitama is still trying to kill monsters so why would he hold back to the point that his punches wouldn't kill them?

It would be extremely weird and out of character for Saitama to belittle a monster like that with 9-B attacks or some shit. He's still a hero and he's never purposefully pretended to be weak like that before.

He casually punches, still with the intent to kill, but obviously he's not really putting much effort into it because he has learned its pointless. His casual punches still have a set level of power when he's intending to kill, but again, it's not quantifiable.

armored Boros' durability is higher than Orochi's. Orochi was completely obliterated by Saitama's signature move, the one punch, the normal punch, whatever you wanna call it, meanwhile Boros tanked that shit like a ******* champ, and which even made Saitama go "hmm?"

Boros' armor was shattered by Saitama's casual punch though. Which protected his body. Sure, he still survived which ultimately puts him a level above anyone whose been instantly killed by his casual punches. But the very next time Saitama casually punches Boros' body, his entire forearm is torn off. Which is actually more damage than he did to Orochi there. Orochi's dragon head limbs are like a very tiny fraction of his body. It's like if he was to punch Boros' toe or finger.

Which is why you can't really compare the two.

here's Orochi's limbs being completely pulverized by a "normal slap", which, judging by the fact that he's literally just slapping him, is probably much weaker than the punch he threw at armored Boros to begin with lmao. Orochi was a joke.

It's not a slap though? Where did you get that from?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

His casual punches definitely do have a baseline level of power when intending to kill but it isn't measurable really.

We just know it's enough to kill almost any dragon level.

So if they have a baseline level of power then we just need to find out what that baseline scales to
also, threat level scaling isn’t really helpful here, you can’t really use it.

The first punch in the series was casual. Not a normal punch at all. He had no expression and was just throwing his fist.

Casual and normal punches are never stated to be different things, and if we’re using Saitama’s expression then he definitely pulverized Orochi’s limbs completely casually, while he got serious against released Boros. This doesn’t really disprove anything.

Also, wdym? Saitama there is pretty new to his overwhelming power as far as I know. So him being surprised by one-shotting shit effortlessly makes sense regardless. The whole point is just to establish to the reader that even his casual strength is enough to one shot things, and that upsets him.

Idk what the argument really is here. It makes sense as an opening scene regardless of the tiering here.

The argument is that if Saitama was fluctuating his most casual attacks between 9-B and High 6-A and being surprised when they die, that would imply that Saitama might throw a 9-B punch at a 9-A and be shocked that it lived, or throw a high 6-A punch at a 6-A+ and then think it was fodder (refer to the gouketsu scene)

Saitama is still trying to kill monsters so why would he hold back to the point that his punches wouldn't kill them?

It would be extremely weird and out of character for Saitama to belittle a monster like that with 9-B attacks or some shit. He's still a hero and he's never purposefully pretended to be weak like that before.

He casually punches, still with the intent to kill, but obviously he's not really putting much effort into it because he has learned its pointless. His casual punches still have a set level of power when he's intending to kill, but again, it's not quantifiable.

so you admit that they have a set level of power, and then I give examples of punches with that set level of power destroying a high 6-A, and then you say “it’s unquantifiable”
bro, it cannot be set power AND unquantifiable, that’s blatantly contradictory
Anyways, he wouldn’t back to a point where it couldn’t kill them, exactly….except that’s exactly what he did against Boros
remind me again, how exactly does Saitama know how much power to use to kill his opponent? Oh, he doesn’t, and he’s testified to the matter before. He didn’t know how strong Gouketsu was, meaning he just hit him with the same punch that he’d hit anybody with to determine if they’re strong or not, which is the entire point of the scene

Boros' armor was shattered by Saitama's casual punch though. Which protected his body. Sure, he still survived which ultimately puts him a level above anyone whose been instantly killed by his casual punches. But the very next time Saitama casually punches Boros' body, his entire forearm is torn off. Which is actually more damage than he did to Orochi there. Orochi's dragon head limbs are like a very tiny fraction of his body. It's like if he was to punch Boros' toe or finger.

Which is why you can't really compare the two.

Saitama uses more power as the fight goes on, so the second punch really isn’t relevant here
but by that logic, the second punch only tore off Boros’ arm, while Saitama’s second punch against Orochi EXPLODED him
additionally, meteoric burst Boros takes another punch straight to the eyeball in his chest, which didn’t even explode.
Anyways, armored Boros was able to withstand the punch and then fight evenly with Saitama later, and released Boros was confident on fighting saitama after feeling how strong his first punch was, so even if armored Boros miraculously didn’t even downscale, released Boros still would.
Also, Orochi’s dragons are literally limbs, and he pulverized them. Think of it this way, if you can pulverize someone’s with a punch, that means you’re definitely stronger than them by a lot. Keep in mind these are the limbs that Orochi uses as his main offensive weapon, so it wouldn’t make sense for them to just splatter like literal butter on contact.

It's not a slap though? Where did you get that from?

Wrong

 

[ZillertheBucko]

On second thought it looked like a back and forth slapping motion at first, but they’re probably punches actually
at least nobody can claim that normal slap > normal punch to say it can’t scale

 

[Coomandar]

While Orochi was turned into paste

yet he needed a serious move to cancel out orochi’s gaia cannon.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

yet he needed a serious move to cancel out orochi’s gaia cannon.

Gaia cannon upscales from his AP
also, serious water gun is saitama shooting water at someone with his hands, which is a vastly more inefficient way of attacking than a punch, so it would’ve been weaker than a straight up punch to begin with. The move was basically a joke.

 

[EnderLord8]

yet he needed a serious move to cancel out orochi’s gaia cannon.

Well in my view it's quite simple: 5.68 feat = Orochi Durability < Gaia Cannon

 

[Phoenks]

So if they have a baseline level of power then we just need to find out what that baseline scales to
also, threat level scaling isn’t really helpful here, you can’t really use it.

There's nothing in the manga that would let us get the precise value for a baseline because Saitama's casual punches could damage everyone except Cosmic Garou.

Casual and normal punches are never stated to be different things, and if we’re using Saitama’s expression then he definitely pulverized Orochi’s limbs completely casually, while he got serious against released Boros. This doesn’t really disprove anything.

He never got serious against Boros until CSRC.

Also, if you don't think there is a difference between normal and casual punches then everything is completely unquantifiable.

I would say he turned to normal punches after Meteoric Burst. This is pretty subjective, but the reason I say this is because that's when Saitama stops entertaining Boros (He asked "are you done with this fight" and is pretty much just done with him by this point) and starts throwing punches with more effort.

Now, imo, thinking about it, maybe you could scale Meteoric Burst Boros above Orochi based on what a normal punch did to Orochi vs Boros.

Orochi was obliterated by a normal punch after serious squirt gun. Whereas Meteoric Burst took one to the chest with minor damage.

Now, as you say, there isn't ever a clear difference in the narrative between casual and normal punches so it's still most likely unquantifiable for the purposes of this wiki and what I said above is purely my own opinion.

so you admit that they have a set level of power, and then I give examples of punches with that set level of power destroying a high 6-A, and then you say “it’s unquantifiable”
bro, it cannot be set power AND unquantifiable, that’s blatantly contradictory

I'm saying he has a baseline level of power for every punch intended to kill, but the maximum is unquantifiable. As is the difference between his most casual and least casual punches.

Saitama uses more power as the fight goes on, so the second punch really isn’t relevant here
but by that logic, the second punch only tore off Boros’ arm, while Saitama’s second punch against Orochi EXPLODED him

The second punch against Orochi was blatantly stronger though. He really winded that shit up and jumped through him. His face was also less casual and more serious so I would say that was definitely a "normal punch." As compared to the casual punch that destroyed Boros arm.

Also, that was technically the third attack.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

On another note, I’d always wanted someone to calc the serious squirt gun feat for how much pressure or energy it took
shouldn’t be calc stacking since Gaia cannon was the exact same scene.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

There's nothing in the manga that would let us get the precise value for a baseline because Saitama's casual punches could damage everyone except Cosmic Garou.

Saitama’s casual punches could instantly kill, nullify the attacks of, or explode everybody except for Boros and Garou
And meteoric burst Boros at the very least would certainly scale above those who exploded (Orochi’s limbs lol), since the only damage he took from it was coughing blood which is <<<<<<<<< bring pulverized.

He never got serious against Boros until CSRC.

Also, if you don't think there is a difference between normal and casual punches then everything is completely unquantifiable.

By serious I meant the “are you done with this fight” along with the serious expression

Also, you still have failed to explain what you even mean by “casual punch” as opposed to “normal punch”
I don’t understand it and you haven’t told me.

I would say he turned to normal punches after Meteoric Burst. This is pretty subjective, but the reason I say this is because that's when Saitama stops entertaining Boros (He asked "are you done with this fight" and is pretty much just done with him by this point) and starts throwing punches with more effort.

Except he throws a normal punch at the start of the fight, like he does every fight. And you still aren’t explaining what makes a normal punch different from a casual punch, the term “casual punch” isn’t even a term used anywhere in the series, only normal and serious punches.

Anyways, if I recall you also supported scaling armored Boros above Gouketsu due to the scan I used in the OP, maybe we could elaborate on that, since the logic can be applied to other things to scale him higher as well.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Also I should add that Orochi’s limbs individually would scale to high 6-A since not only are they his primary method of attack, but also his tail alone is what did the high 6-A feat, which isn’t much bigger than his dragons. In other words it’s not really comparable to only destroying a toe just because Orochi is big.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Megabump

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Does anybody know when the MHA stuff or whatever is gonna get resolved?

 

[Damage3245]

Does anybody know when the MHA stuff or whatever is gonna get resolved?

That's not what is keeping me from the thread.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Alright then what about Qawsed

 

[ZillertheBucko]

It’s not my intention to be a nuisance about this, and in most cases, I wouldn’t be doing this because I understand that you have other things to do
but I can’t stress enough that this has been open for months and we’ve only just now gotten to the bigger half of the crt
At this rate we’re just going to be wasting space (we’re technically not supposed to have more than like 4 or 5 OPM CRTs open at a time)
I also don’t want it to be closed prematurely after having very little discussion either, so I would personally highly recommend just a little more participation…
Again, this is only because of the fact that normal members’ opinions don’t matter and I literally need the two staff that are participating in order for this to go anywhere, so I have no choice but to bug you really.

 

[Phoenks]

Saitama’s casual punches could instantly kill, nullify the attacks of, or explode everybody except for Boros and Garou
And meteoric burst Boros at the very least would certainly scale above those who exploded (Orochi’s limbs lol), since the only damage he took from it was coughing blood which is <<<<<<<<< bring pulverized.

Sure, I agree with this.

I think anyone who can survive a casual punch (intended to kill) should scale above those that can't. Because even Saitama shows surprise when Boros is able to survive one. That is probably one of the only reactions which I'd say is usable for scaling.

However, Orochi also doesn't get killed in one punch.

And again, the damage that a casual punch did to Boros (destroying his arm) is more than what happened to Orochi.

So no, he can't scale above Orochi.

i agree with this:

Boris, Orochi, Garou > Everyone who can't survive a casual punch that was intended to kill.

By serious I meant the “are you done with this fight” along with the serious expression

Also, you still have failed to explain what you even mean by “casual punch” as opposed to “normal punch”
I don’t understand it and you haven’t told me.

The difference between a casual punch and normal punch isn't made very clear.

Especially once they deleted the original Orochi fight.

But, imo it's when Saitama's expression becomes more serious.

You brought up a good example. When Saitama goes "Are you done" he is drawn with way more serious expressions. He throws a punch, then right after that he throws multiple of those punches which is consecutive normal punches.

Another good example is against Orochi after he deflects Gaia Canon. He punches him with a lot more effort than what we see from his more casual punches.

And then, with Garou, once Garou uses Fa Jin, his face very clearly changes and only then does he use consecutive normal punches.

Anyways, if I recall you also supported scaling armored Boros above Gouketsu due to the scan I used in the OP, maybe we could elaborate on that, since the logic can be applied to other things to scale him higher as well.

Gouketsu died from the first punch. Saitama then says that most of his opponents die in the first punch so he can't remember their strength.

So Boros very clearly scales above Gouketsu since he neither does in the first punch, and Saitama did comment on his strength unlike anyone before him. Even after he died.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

However, Orochi also doesn't get killed in one punch.

And again, the damage that a casual punch did to Boros (destroying his arm) is more than what happened to Orochi.

So no, he can't scale above Orochi.

And this is where I have the problem
Orochi’s durability is not relative to his size, which is the main point that you’re arguing here
his tail alone was able to do the feat, meaning that something equivalent to a finger for him scales to high 6-A
in fact, that would mean that the full size of Orochi’s body would take much more AP to actually destroy (try punching something like paper hard enough to actually make a hole that’s way bigger than your fist, it’s not very easy to pull off
that would explain why Saitama needed a clearly more serious normal punch to blow up Orochi so thoroughly. However, he had already overcame his durability by punching his dragon heads into blood pulp, so you would have to admit that he still scales
Plus, the dragon heads we’re still preparing to strike, and it wouldn’t make sense that his main means of attacking would have AP that turns himself to pulp. In the best case scenario where destroying a dragon head is the equivalent of destroying a toe, then again, think about this

If you can pulverize someone’s toe…that means you’re just plain way stronger than their durability. This isn’t saitama scratching Orochi’s toe, this is Orochi’s toe being completely turned into blood. The AP of the one punch would have to scale no matter what.

Boris, Orochi, Garou > Everyone who can't survive a casual punch that was intended to kill.

Well saitama was never intending to kill against Garou, but I guess the punches he took after extreme fa jin should set in stone his scaling above Orochi too, so sure.

The difference between a casual punch and normal punch isn't made very clear.

Especially once they deleted the original Orochi fight.

But, imo it's when Saitama's expression becomes more serious.

Keep in mind that the casual punch normal punch thing is kind of irrelevant here, because the Imgur scans in the OP all point to the first punch of the fight, not the “casual” punch
Saitama with a casual punch was able to nullify Tatsumaki’s strongest attack, but again I’m assuming you don’t want that scaling to be a thing, since that wasn’t the first punch of the fight.

You brought up a good example. When Saitama goes "Are you done" he is drawn with way more serious expressions. He throws a punch, then right after that he throws multiple of those punches which is consecutive normal punches.

Another good example is against Orochi after he deflects Gaia Canon. He punches him with a lot more effort than what we see from his more casual punches.

And then, with Garou, once Garou uses Fa Jin, his face very clearly changes and only then does he use consecutive normal punches.

If we’re going this route then I should mention…
Boros’ released punch was directly responsible for Saitama going into that same “serious” mode

Implying that released Boros there was stronger than Garou was when he did the mountain crush…

Gouketsu died from the first punch. Saitama then says that most of his opponents die in the first punch so he can't remember their strength.

So Boros very clearly scales above Gouketsu since he neither does in the first punch, and Saitama did comment on his strength unlike anyone before him. Even after he died.

Going by this same logic, Boros should scale above the AP of Orochi’s first attack with the dragons, since he was able to tell released Boros was strong while his one-punch destroyed his dragon head. The same reasoning from Gouketsu can be applied to Orochi.
the only reason Orochi didn’t die from one punch was because of his sheer size, but we’ve already been over that.

 

[Epiccheev]

Orochi is pretty much just homogeneous dragon matter filled with plasma as seen by when he gets blown apart by Saitama after Gaia cannon. Not to mention his durability is rated as it is for holding the exaton level energy in his body for a while before firing it, so i'd say it doesn't really matter wich part of his body gets destroyed.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Orochi is pretty much just homogeneous dragon matter filled with plasma as seen by when he gets blown apart by Saitama after Gaia cannon, not to mention his durability is rated as it is for holding the exaton level energy in his body for a while before firing it, so i'd say it doesn't really matter wich part of his body gets destroyed.

Boros is simply made out of the superior goo

 

[ZillertheBucko]

bump

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Bump

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Just a little update note
Armored Boros durability doesn’t really need to scale to high 6-A, he can just be “at least high 6-C, likely far higher” since his armor got shattered completely, but he should still be way more durable than Gouketsu and the meteor, who were both completely exploded by a punch, along with the fact that he should be stronger than all his generals
although it should be noted that a high 6-A attack would be unable to one shot him while he is wearing the armor.

The alternative is just going with “at most high 6-A” on armored Boros but that depends on if you think he’s allowed to scale directly or not.

Released Boros would upscale normally due to confidence scaling after taking the punch directly of course, and then meteoric burst Boros taking another punch directly to the eyeball with only coughing blood being another feat
I’d also like to add released Boros’ punch getting a reaction out of Saitama as a support to his AP as well. I might do something more with that later, who knows.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

bump

 

[ZillertheBucko]

bump 5

 

[Phoenks]

Anyway so I've pretty much changed my mind about this after some discussion.

I think that Released Boros should scale above Orochi because he should be stronger than Saitama's initial punch via confidence scaling. He could measure the energy is Saitama's first strike and still believed that he'd be able to fight him in Released Form and was even surprised when Saitama lasted against him.

The initial punch that could splatter Orochi's limbs, which even individually, scale to High 6-A in durability. So he should be above that.

Basically I agree.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

very nice
I wonder if Damage3245 or Qawsed might have something to say?

 

[EnderLord8]

I believe that the main points have already been made, at least on the AP side, just missing the votes of the administrators... And also the decision of the scale in the case.

I mean: Orochi Durability < Boros Durability (Armored) < Boros (Released) or Orochi Durability < Boros (Realesed)?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Armored Boros is probably going to be at least high 6-C likely far higher
should be stronger than gouketsu and the meteor who were completely obliterated with one punch, as well as stronger than Groribas who scales above 6-C

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I mean: Orochi Durability < Boros Durability (Armored) < Boros (Released) or Orochi Durability < Boros (Realesed)?

I'm fine with either of these