Concern over Ichibe's win against Toneri

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ichibei stated that "anything that is painted on by Ichimonji loses its name". If he paints on a tsb, it will lose its name and in turn lose almost all of its power. Toneri changing colour will only make it so that Ichibei cannot take the tsb's power. However he can still easily cancel it out. Ichibei has to go shikai to blot things out with ichimonji. In his base form he can only cut things in half. If Toneri starts to use a crap ton of tsb then Ichibei would have a lot of trouble avoiding them all without his shikai. However as soon as he goes shikai he can negate them all. Toneri basically has to kill Ichibei before he releases his zanpakuto or else Ichibei's hax gives him the win. That's the way I see it

There are problems with this however

1. I dont see how Ichibei will be given the chance to activate his Shikai as his base form will be nothing compared to Toneri and there's nothing Ichibei in base has that can stop Toneri from just one shotting him before the Shikai comes out and the ink coming in to blot him out.

2. The issue with the whole "paint on TSB, loses its power thing" is that there is no good or concrete argument/evidence that actually proves the Ink would take away its power. Like mentioned above, the TSB negates anything just by touch alone (with the exception of Senjutsu/Nature Energy). What actually proves the Ink would cancel the TSB's power before it instantly just gets nullified itself? As far as im concerned, the TSB will nulllify it first before IT gets nullified by the ink. Frankly, there is no evidence of it going the other way around in favor of the ink and honestly, its ridiculous to even assume so. Furthermore, your own statement supports the Ink getting nullified first as you said the ink will make the TSB lose ALMOST all of its power. Nullifying an attack is not power based, meaning its hax would still remain long enough to nullify the ink, thus canceling it all together. And honestly, there isnt any evidence that Ichibei blotting out a single TSB will mean ALL of Toneri's TSB's will get blotted out either as there isnt any corelation to each TSB. And even if this is incorrect, Toneri could still one shot Ichibei who would be too focused on blotting out the TSB's rather than attack Toneri himself

3. If TSB's are no longer an option., then Toneri can still stop the Ink with his possible Matter Manipulation and Transmutation like I stated above. Then he wouldnt even need the TSB's

4. Im going to be honestly straight when I say this, but, what's there to say Toneri can't just get out of the Ink's range? Or just straight up dodge it? If the Ink needs to be in physical contact with something in order to blot out its name, then I dont see why Toneri cant just attack the Ink to keep it at bay, get out of its range, or just straight up dodge it when Ichibe has never shown to have his Ink travel to more than like 50 feet away from him.

Unless Ichibe can do something to counter all of these points, I dont see how his hax can seal him a win against someone like Toneri

 

[Amlad22]

Ichibei may not be able to damage Toneri in his base form, but he has kido and a speed advantage to avoid Toneri. As soon as he sees Toneri's power he would activate shikai.

http://www.goodmanga.net/bleach/chapter/608/10

This link shows that anything that is painted on by ichimonji loses its power. So if a tsb is hit by the ink it will lose its name and therefore lose its power. Can I see a link showing how Toneri used his matter manipulation powers? You said "possible" Mather manipulation so that makes me curious. As for Toneri getting out of range that is also nearly impossible since Ichibei has a speed advantage and a HUGE reaction speed advantage. Toneri won't be able to hit Ichibei but Ichibei will be able to hit Toneri. Unless Toneri's matter manipulation can get rid of the paint.

 

[Amlad22]

http://www.goodmanga.net/bleach/chapter/608/11

^second link to prove my point

 

[Omimi]

Ichibei stated that "anything that is painted on by Ichimonji loses its name". If he paints on a tsb, it will lose its name and in turn lose almost all of its power. Toneri changing colour will only make it so that Ichibei cannot take the tsb's power. However he can still easily cancel it out

tsb erase anything that touch it so

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

That sub-relativistic speed feat is a reaction feat not a motion or combat speed feat.

The attack potency difference is so much it's not funny.

The sub-relativistic reactions just means that it's going to be hard for Toneri to hit him. But that does not matter too much considering Toneri has so much area of effect behind his attacks.

A few golden or silver wheel reincarnation explosions and the battle field in which Ichibe is on will be destroyed.

 

[Amlad22]

Attack potency is nothing for Ichibei. If he paints on Toneri with his shikai he loses almost all of his power with only a fraction remaining. Plus Ichibei has the speed advantage. He'll be dodging, blocking or negating anything that comes his way.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Yes Ichibei does have the speed advantage but it's not speed blitz worthy. He only has sub-relativistic plus reactions the rest of his speed feats is massively hypersonic plus.

I'm sorry but Ichibei is not blocking Toneri's attacks. He does not have the durability to do so.

To get the ink on Toneri Ichibei will have to strategise. There's no way at point blank range that Ichibei can put ink on Toneri while Toneri is conscious of what he is doing.

Anyway Toneri can also negate Ichibei's attacks with Truth seeking balls.

Toneri also has this technique called Localised reincarnation explosion where by Toneri creates a green orb that passes through the opponent absorbing their energy leaving them unconscious.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

So in other words besides dc Toneri can make you unconscious with one attack which absorbs chakra.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im going to say and ask this again

For one, why can't Toneri just dodge the Ink? IIRC the ink needs to be physically touching you in order to write over its power to get rid of it. Ichibe has better speed yes but its not worthy of a speed blitz so I dont see why Toneri can't just deflect the ink with an attack, dodge it or just get out of its range when Ichibe has never shown to launch his ink at any target for more than like 50 feet away from himself

And secondly, we already established that the TSB will just get rid of the ink and there's no evidence that the Ink can negate the powers of a hax that just negates other powers via touch alone. Unless the Ink has something like nature energy to resist the balls, it is getting nullified. And even then, blotting the powers out of one TSB should not make the other ones ineffective. They are not connected each TSB is their own ball. And in the worst case scenerio, Toneri can just use the TSB's as a distraction to one shot Ichibe who would be too focused on the TSB's in order to actually fight Toneri. And the same goes in the opposite way as well.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Anime4Life

Ichibe controls all of the blackness in the universe. Meaning ALL of it, including any shadows or black dots, dust, whatever. Toneri's poofy long sleeves virtually guarantee that there will be shadows inside them, and there's clearly shadows inside his robe in Tenseigan Chakra Mode. Ichibe can just manipulate those and splatter Toneri.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Anime4Life
Ichibe controls all of the blackness in the universe. Meaning ALL of it, including any shadows or black dots, dust, whatever. Toneri's poofy long sleeves virtually guarantee that there will be shadows inside them, and there's clearly shadows inside his robe in Tenseigan Chakra Mode. Ichibe can just manipulate those and splatter Toneri.

Not when Toneri is in his chakra mode, he's basically a glowing green disco ball when in that form. And would Ichibe even be that clever?

Besides, Ichibe cant blot anything out without activating his Shikai first and whats stopping Toneri from just one shottng him while he's activating it? Or surrouding the area with TSB's to erase him? Or just nuking the area with much greater AP and kill him right there?

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Ichibe is not stopping localised reincarnation explosion. That attack absorbs all ninjutsu abilities and goes through the opponent and knocks them out.

The technique reached the surface of the moon.

 

[Reppuzan]

Ichibe can control the Blackness in water. A little green isn't going to be doing much.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Ichibe can control the Blackness in water. A little green isn't going to be doing much.

Once that green orb goes into him all his spiritual energy will be gone and he will be knocked out.

 

[Reppuzan]

Assuming Ichibe doesn't just blitz him first due to being faster.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yes because water has shadows within its depths as not all water is exposed to sunlight

Toneri on the other hand is literally a completely glowing green lightball. I doubt he has any black on him once that mode activates. And I also doubt that Ichibe would be that clever in going after the black in Toneri's clothes when he'd be more focused on Toneri, especially when Toneri would be sending TSB's after him.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Assuming Ichibe doesn't just blitz him first due to being faster.

His speed as said by Anime4 and myself is not speed blitz worthy. He has sub-relativistic reactions not motion or combat speed.

 

[Amlad22]

He's almost Mach 4000. Characters like madara are almost Mach 3300. Toneri isn't as fast as madara so we would be generous to say he's Mach 3000. I'd have him around Mach 2000-2500. Ichibei has a clear advantage

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Yes because water has shadows within its depths as not all water is exposed to sunlight

Toneri on the other hand is literally a completely glowing green lightball. I doubt he has any black on him once that mode activates. And I also doubt that Ichibe would be that clever in going after the black in Toneri's clothes when he'd be more focused on Toneri, especially when Toneri would be sending TSB's after him.

And also because whenever Toneri attacks a lot of destruction is being made. It will be surprising if Ichibe is not even the slightest bit startled about how much destruction Toneri is accumulating.

 

[Reppuzan]

Like I said, Ichibe is still faster and can still splatter Toneri as he pleases.

It's Ichibe's Mach 3900 combat and movement speed vs Toneri's Mach 3300. He will ultimately act with much greater speed than Toneri, who is much more cocky, arrogant, and inexperienced.

 

[Amlad22]

If Ichibei really thinks Toneri will kill him he won't try to use his shikai. You all are forgetting Ichibei's final kido move. The one that takes the darkness from 100 nights of soul society and uses it to completely destroy every last piece of the opponents body and sends the consciousness of the opponent into a seperate world of limbo so that they can't reincarnate. Toneri has no chance against this move.

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

That technique of Ichibei's that stops you from reincarnating is not something that takes a few seconds to do. He has to say incantation and drink from a cup. Even if Toneri is not faster than Ichibei, he is still fast enough to prevent him from doing the requirements for that technique.

Anyway most of Ichibei's techniques can be blown away by Toneri's dc advantage. Even the shockwaves from Toneri's attacks are to much for Ichibei to survive.


If Toneri uses his golden wheel technique it is over for Ichibei.

Every time Toneri attacks whether it hits directly or not is a hinderance to Ichibei's well being. Once Toneri starts unleashing his attacks, there is nothing Ichibei can do to escape the blast radius.

 

[Hakumon12]

Toneri can actually one shot him with this from a distance

https://67.media.tumblr.com/374b4b2a340dbac92454f2ca7862ed70/tumblr_nfrz0pGDFY1rjnjmxo1_500.gif


It zapped away all of narutos energy sakura had to transfer hers to him

 

[Reppuzan]

@Uchihazinon

Merely slicing Yhwach's arm was able to cut his power in half. Bisecting Yhwach sliced his power, durability, and speed in half.

There's also no indication that you can "blow away" his power, as anything the ink touches falls under Ichibe's control as it is now black.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If Ichibei really thinks Toneri will kill him he won't try to use his shikai. You all are forgetting Ichibei's final kido move. The one that takes the darkness from 100 nights of soul society and uses it to completely destroy every last piece of the opponents body and sends the consciousness of the opponent into a seperate world of limbo so that they can't reincarnate. Toneri has no chance against this move.

TSB>>>>>any Kido in Bleach since Kido would be refered to as Ninjutsu so this is a no no for Ichibe

Honestly even with greater speed, even with a speed blitz, Ichibe cant harm Toneri in any way without hax due to having far better AP and Durability and Ichibe would:

-Get erased due to the field of TSB's Toneri would mae

-Get obliterated due to Toneri's attacks being far better in AP and having AoE

-Get erased via touching the TSB if Toneri uses them defensively then offensively

And there is no evidence that the TSB's can have their hax be nullified by Ichibe when its a nullifying hax to begin with and even then, Toneri can change the color of his TSB's when chakra is imputed into them. And to go with this, Toneri still has matter manipulation/tramsutation like what he did when he created Hinata's cage out of a TSB so if TSB's somehow get countered, Toneri can use this is a backup against Ichibe and his ink.

 

[Hakumon12]

Just remake the fight and have a clear debate with it instead of arguing..

 

[Reppuzan]

I'll have to agree. This is quickly devolving into a versus debate. Just make another fight and we'll see what happens.