Concern over Ichibe's win against Toneri

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Why is Toneri listed as a loss against Ichibe when Toneri's in a higher tier than him? Unless im missing something, battles between a Country level being (6-B) and a Multi-Continent level being (High 6-A) is a massive stomp. Shouldnt this be removed or did Ichibei win via some condition in their fight?

 

[Gemmysaur]

Iirc, Ichibe outhaxxes Toneri.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yes but doesnt Toneri have better speed and AP? I mean I didnt see the actual thread so idk if they equalized speed or not to make it more fair.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Not to mention there wasn't a vote count for either of them and here it is: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/211526

 

[Amlad22]

Toneri has powerful attacks but Ichibei is leagues ahead in terms of speed. Also his Bankai is hax and can change toneri's name. That's why he won the fight

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

He isnt "leagues ahead" in terms of speed both are MHS+ unless Toneri has a calc that has a lower speed than Ichibeis. Also im not seeing the point of Ichibei's hax if he gets one shotted first plus iirc Ichibei's ink has to connect with Toneri in order to change his name and whats stopping Toneri from just nuullifying or blocking it?

 

[Amlad22]

Ichibei controls all black in the world. Unless Toneri can get rid of every last piece of black in the world (including darkness itself) he won't be able to stop Ichibei. Ichibei isn't stupid either. He is a master of all forms of soul reaper combat. He's not going to run up to Toneri and get killed right away.

 

[Legion350]

Toneri is over Mach 7000 while Ichibei is over Mach 3000.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@God Proof?

 

[Amlad22]

Mach 7000? Are you insane? Nobody is that high in the naruto verse. Madara isn't even that fast. Even if Toneri is Mach 7000, Ichibei has sub-relativistic+ reactions speed. Add that onto his hax and he gets the win

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ichibei controls all black in the world. Unless Toneri can get rid of every last piece of black in the world (including darkness itself) he won't be able to stop Ichibei. Ichibei isn't stupid either. He is a master of all forms of soul reaper combat. He's not going to run up to Toneri and get killed right away.

Pretty sure Toneri could just use stuff like TSB to get rid of Ichibei and his ink

And Toneri isnt stupid either he wouldnt just let Ichibei use his hax on him

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I've forgotten how Ichibē's darkness stuff works. Wouldn't he be better off trying to change Toneri's identity with his Bankai? That being said, Toneri has a big AP advantage and he did his feat casually. It can go either way.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I have a VERY hard time believing Toneri is just going to sit there and let Ichibei activate his bankai. Cant Ichibei just get one shotted before the Bankai even comes out?

 

[Amlad22]

Toneri would have no idea that a paint brush could kill him. Yhwach had no idea either. Yhwach found out too late that Ichibei can take away power and change names and that's why he almost died. The difference is that Toneri doesn't have the almighty. Unless Toneri comes into the battle knowing how ichibei's Bankai works I don't see him winning. Even tsb get negated by Ichibei since they are black. Ichibei can easily rename them.

 

[Legion350]

@Amlad, he is comparable to Naruto who has a Mach 7000 feat on his page.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Wait, why is that on his page? The calc was never accepted...

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Lord Aizen sama said this "Reading down it seems DontTalk was against using this calc over the other one, so i'm assuming this should not be on the profile"

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Toneri would have no idea that a paint brush could kill him. Yhwach had no idea either. Yhwach found out too late that Ichibei can take away power and change names and that's why he almost died. The difference is that Toneri doesn't have the almighty. Unless Toneri comes into the battle knowing how ichibei's Bankai works I don't see him winning. Even tsb get negated by Ichibei since they are black. Ichibei can easily rename them.

Actually thats not true. If you look back at their fight, Toneri could change the color of his TSB into lightish Green or white when his chakra was used with them so they arent always black. Meaning if Toneri changes their color then Ichibei has no control over them

And now that I think about it doesnt Toneri have transmutation or Matter Manipulation too? I remember him using a TSB to change it into a large cage to contain Hinata in. If thats true, then can't Toneri just use it against Ichibei's ink to change it completely, rendering it inneffective?

 

[Legion350]

Why is Ichibei, Sub-Relativistic?

 

[Amlad22]

Even if the tsb is green Ichibei can still avoid them. His reactions are faster than any speed we've seen in the naruto verse plus Ichibei knows every known kido in existence. He can use them to counter tsb. We can't forget that ichibei's paint can not only rename someone but also cut their power in half. Toneri at only half his power and speed would make Ichibei take an even easier win.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Even if the tsb is green Ichibei can still avoid them. His reactions are faster than any speed we've seen in the naruto verse plus Ichibei knows every known kido in existence. He can use them to counter tsb. We can't forget that ichibei's paint can not only rename someone but also cut their power in half. Toneri at only half his power and speed would make Ichibei take an even easier win.

Reactions wont mean anything if Toneri has already caught up to Ichibei. His TSB can be used both long ranged and short ranged so reacting to the lot wont mean much. And Kido countering TSB? Pretty sure TSB will just negate them. And as for the power cutting in half, yea no. Toneri is Multi Continent level which is drastically higher than Ichibei's country lvl rating. Even with AP in half Toneri will have the better AP advantage over Ichibei enough for a one shot.

 

[Amlad22]

Toneri won't be able to hit Ichibei once his speed has been cut in half. He may have power but speed and hax go to Ichibei. Once Toneri has lost the speed advantage Ichibei will find it much easier to use kido on Toneri. All Ichibei needs to do is bind him with a high level kido (maybe even a sacred kido that only he knows) and then activate Bankai to kill Toneri. His Bankai takes a few seconds at most to use and a high level kido from the person who invented the names for all kido won't be broken that quickly from someone of Toneri's level

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Toneri won't be able to hit Ichibei once his speed has been cut in half. He may have power but speed and hax go to Ichibei. Once Toneri has lost the speed advantage Ichibei will find it much easier to use kido on Toneri. All Ichibei needs to do is bind him with a high level kido (maybe even a sacred kido that only he knows) and then activate Bankai to kill Toneri. His Bankai takes a few seconds at most to use and a high level kido from the person who invented the names for all kido won't be broken that quickly from someone of Toneri's level

First you say power, now your saying speed. When has Ichibei ever cut someones power, let alone speed, in half? That isnt even listed on his profile. And eve if that was true, Toneri doesnt need to be fast to nullfiy his hax or Kido when his TSB can do that by itself, as well as possibly use Matter Manipulation/Transmutation to make them inneffective as a second option. In addition, whats stopping Toneri from just one shotting Ichibei the moment he gets close enough in the first place? Or when Ichibei starts chanting out the words for his Kido, just slice him then and end it?

Okay and the same thing goes for Toneri, if not even shorter and that "level" for Toneri>>>>>>Ichibei's period which is why it should be a stomp if not for the hax.

 

[Amlad22]

When Ichibei fought Yhwach he clearly stated that he cuts power in half. Power as in every aspect of the fighter, attack potency, speed, etc. With speed and power cut in half Toneri will be unable to even hit Ichibei. Tsb is all Toneri has to get past ichibei's shikai and Bankai and even then Ichibei is fast enough to avoid them or use kido to counter it. Ichibei could easily use a bakudo 99 to bind Toneri for a few seconds, giving him time to activate Bankai and turn him into an ant.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

When Ichibei fought Yhwach he clearly stated that he cuts power in half. Power as in every aspect of the fighter, attack potency, speed, etc. With speed and power cut in half Toneri will be unable to even hit Ichibei. Tsb is all Toneri has to get past ichibei's shikai and Bankai and even then Ichibei is fast enough to avoid them or use kido to counter it. Ichibei could easily use a bakudo 99 to bind Toneri for a few seconds, giving him time to activate Bankai and turn him into an ant.

Your going to have to give me proof to this please and if so then Ichibe will need a revision thread because it isnt listed on his profile atm.

But even so, if that's done via the Ink, which is still blockable, then it wont be any help here when Toneri can block it. Also, Toneri doesnt need to chase Ichibe to hit him with the TSB he can just make a barrier out of them like Obito can to nullify them and even harm Ichibe if he gets into contact with them and this is assuming Toneri would get his speed cut in half anyway. Ichibe will then be forced to try and break through the TSB shield and with it nullfying all his moves he cant get to Toneri. With it being normal I highly doubt Toneri cant chase him down, especially when he can just launch the TSB's at him and they'll likely be way too many for Ichibe to just dodge. And if TSB's get countered, Toneri can still change the Ink to make it useless via Transmutation or Matter Manipulation

Finally, any Kido Ichibe tries to use either gets TSB'd or changed to make it useless so its not gonna be much help here.

 

[Amlad22]

http://m.*************/manga/bleach/v58/c608/12.html

My mistake, I underrated Ichibei. His base sword cuts your power in half, however his shikai completely takes away power, leaving the opponent nearly powerless. Now that I have refreshed my memory I can say that Toneri needs to kill Ichibei before he reaches shikai. Let's keep the calc that Toneri is Mach 7000 and put him up against Ichibei. Ichibei's base sword would cut him in half to Mach 3500. Then his shikai would cut him even further. Even if we assume Ichibei still leaves 10% of the power that would put Toneri at Mach 700. Also, tsb is black, Toneri can change it to a greenish colour but at the start of the fight it would be black. Making it an easy target for Ichibei.

 

[Amlad22]

http://m.*************/manga/bleach/v58/c606/19.html

Also this is the chapter that talks about Ichibei's base sword powers

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

Ichibe's "all black I have control of" thing is completely subjective and if not, a fallacy. What is considered black? and as someone said above Toneri's TSB can change colors on his command. TSB's have been shown to have a purple tint and more of a grey look rather than black at most times in official color art.

Ichibe might be sub-rel but IIRC Toneri's sword wheel attack is much faster than that seeing as how such a large object moves at the swing of his arm; and the fact that he did it twice casually makes it that much more of a threat for Ichibe. One touch and he's finished; no regen feats.

Ichibe would have to reach Toneri faster than the speed Toneri could swin his arm and move the moon-slicing sword wheel attack.

If Ichibe's paints a TSB it could change its form moving away from the ink or completely disenegrate the ink off it it seeing as how it negates things it touches and things that touch it on command

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

http://m.*************/manga/bleach/v58/c608/12.html
My mistake, I underrated Ichibei. His base sword cuts your power in half, however his shikai completely takes away power, leaving the opponent nearly powerless. Now that I have refreshed my memory I can say that Toneri needs to kill Ichibei before he reaches shikai. Let's keep the calc that Toneri is Mach 7000 and put him up against Ichibei. Ichibei's base sword would cut him in half to Mach 3500. Then his shikai would cut him even further. Even if we assume Ichibei still leaves 10% of the power that would put Toneri at Mach 700. Also, tsb is black, Toneri can change it to a greenish colour but at the start of the fight it would be black. Making it an easy target for Ichibei.

Well first off, this is assuming that Ichibe will even have the chance TO cut Toneri's power in half or take away his power completely before getting one shotted.

Secondly, based on what your saying it would still be a AP win for Toneri because, lets say that Toneri is charging at Ichibe with an attack and Ichibe uses his sword to cut its power in half. Like I said, the difference between Country Level and Multi Continent level is drastically big. Cutting the attack in half wont stop Toneri from still one shotting. And this works if Ichibe is charging at Toneri too, who will likely have his TSB and other haxes as counter shields anyway. In addition, Ichibe has to not only make contact, but also cut Toneri IN HALF like he did to Ywhach in order to actually reduce his abilities and its pointless if Toneri has far better durability and hax shields. I dont even see whats stopping the TSB's from just erasing Ichibe's sword the moment of contact. In shorter terms, given all of the ways Toneri has of countering his stuff, Ichibe's best chance would be to go straight into Shikai to get rid of Toneri's powers and he wont do that unless he has a reason to and has a chance to do so period, giving Toneri more time and opportunities to win.

How so? Toneri can change their color with just his sheer chakra as shown in his fight with Naruto and if he's starting with TSB at the beginning, then those TSB will be infused with his chakra, making them non black.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Ichibei won by hax. read the thread.

and if theres any profile with the mach 7000 calc it needs removing. we don't accept that one.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I did read the thread and with all due respect, I dont understand how his hax decides the fight when Toneri can counter it as we established above

 

[Amlad22]

You are relying too much on tsb. They can easily be avoided by Ichibei's superior speed and even negeated completely if Toneri doesn't change the colour quick enough. And as I've already shown all Ichibei needs is one direct hit with his shikai to weaker Toneri drastically.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I have skimread the above and they all seem covered in the thread.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You are relying too much on tsb. They can easily be avoided by Ichibei's superior speed and even negeated completely if Toneri doesn't change the colour quick enough. And as I've already shown all Ichibei needs is one direct hit with his shikai to weaker Toneri drastically.

All Toneri needs to do is have chakra be imputed into his TSB which will kinda be done already. I doubt him not being able to do it in time. And no, you need to be cut in half by his Shikai to have yourself be weakened drastically, literally. Your own scans prove so as Ywhach was cut in half. A simple hit isnt going to do anything, especially when Toneri's durability>>>>>>Ichibeis.

And like I already said, Toneri does not need to launch the TSB at Ichibei as he can just surround himself in them, forcing Ichibei to try and break through them which will nullify any attempt he makes. So having greater speed doesnt matter much. Finally, again, what's stopping Toneri from just matter manipulating or transmutating the ink into something completely different to render it useless like he did here for Hinata? He wouldnt even need to use TSB.

 

[Amlad22]

Ichibei stated that "anything that is painted on by Ichimonji loses its name". If he paints on a tsb, it will lose its name and in turn lose almost all of its power. Toneri changing colour will only make it so that Ichibei cannot take the tsb's power. However he can still easily cancel it out

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ichibei stated that "anything that is painted on by Ichimonji loses its name". If he paints on a tsb, it will lose its name and in turn lose almost all of its power. Toneri changing colour will only make it so that Ichibei cannot take the tsb's power. However he can still easily cancel it out

Doesnt he only do that when in Shikai/Bankai? Or can base do that at any time?

 

[Amlad22]

Ichibei has to go shikai to blot things out with ichimonji. In his base form he can only cut things in half. If Toneri starts to use a crap ton of tsb then Ichibei would have a lot of trouble avoiding them all without his shikai. However as soon as he goes shikai he can negate them all. Toneri basically has to kill Ichibei before he releases his zanpakuto or else Ichibei's hax gives him the win. That's the way I see it

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

https://youtu.be/_L9b7fbc8II?t=2m16s


TSB's are durable af; IIRC higher durability than Ichibe's AP

 

[Amlad22]

It doesn't matter if they are durable. If Ichibei blots it put with his shikai they will lose their name and in turn lose almost all of their power. Also when Toneri uses the tsb's to make a shield the shield turns black, meaning Ichibei could take control of it and rip it apart with ease

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

How can you be so sure that works on a technique that already negates other things, is in animate and works on the command of the user? Can I see a feat where Ichibei uses this on a weapon that negates other things or some sort of confirmation. The TSB's whole thing is about negation, absorption and destruction. They've been hit by things that are very powerful and have been shown to absorb attacks; the only thing said to counter them is senjutsu which is natural energy. If Ichibe doesn't show use of natural energy it's unsaid if he can even damage the TSB; let alone he ALSO doesn't have enough DC/AP to even crack one.