(Complete Saint Seiya verse Overhaul Part 1) - Perhaps one of the top 10 most ambitious overhauls to a verse in vswiki history?

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Luffy, I'm not mad.

And to those who have read the manga know, I'm not making accusations, I'm stating facts. Gemini has lied about scans and context multiple times on this thread and use to to it all over Comicvine as well.

I'm trying to remove abilities on the profiles that don't deserve to be on there. We've never seen an 8th sense user regenerate their body, nor resurrect themselves.

Mind you, you can't "resurrect" whilst still being in the Underworld, if you're in the underworld, the afterlife, you're dead by definition, something people seem to forget, you can't resurrect and be in the afterlife, it's an inherent contradiction.

It'd be nice if you actually pointed out any intentional lying or misrepresentation to address it before making these sort of accusations, though I don't expect it since it'd just give any level headed reader another chance to see the problem's that for whatever reason you're not comprehending anything and blindly refusing to account for anything that goes against your rhetoric.

 

[Hasty12345]

It'd be nice if you actually pointed out any intentional lying or misrepresentation to address it before making these sort of accusations, though I don't expect it since it'd just give any level headed reader another chance to see the problem's that for whatever reason you're not comprehending anything and blindly refusing to account for anything that goes against your rhetoric.

I'm sorry I struggle to convey emotion properly through text. My rhetoric is awful always has been.

Shaka was supposedly reduced to nothingness by the AE, the cloth was gone with him.

Shun cannot wear a cloth that was reduced to nothingness. Therefore Shaka could not have been reduced to nothingness.

You've already debunked the facts Gold Cloths have AE levels of durability, in fact, pretty sure Niobe did some pretty significant damage to a gold cloth as did Sukiyo in ND, so the description of Shaka being reduced to nothingness SHOULD be accurate. So Shaka's cloth should be destroyed if he were killed. I know you know this because I know you don't agree Thanatos destroying the Virgo Cloth would HAVE to be an above AE level feat if Shaka were killed by it but his cloth literally didn't get a single scratch.

So already the Shaka death scene makes 0 sense, from a powerscaling and narrative standpoint.


What makes Shaka's death scene even more of a plot hole, is the fact he didn't need to awaken the 8th sense in that moment. As Dohko explains, Shaka was known amonsgt the gold saints has already having his Alaya awakened.

So we know Shaka's motives weren't actually to die to awaken the 8th sense, Dohko explains the 8th sense must be awakened prior to death and Shaka already had it.

We know the Virgo Gold Cloth couldn't have been hit by an AE, otherwise it would be reduced to nothingness and we know Shun wore the cloth that was supposedly nothingness later on.

We ALSO KNOW it's the SAME cloth that was never destroyed since it was one of the 12 Golden Cloths that had been bathing in the sun since the age of myth, a cloth that was reduced to nothingness isn't bathing in anything, so the cloth at the wailing wall but be the same cloth.

So Shaka dying is the biggest plot hole in the arc, so yeah I do disagree with Shaka dying. Dohko says he entered the UW alive, and the cloth proves he never died to begin with.


Combine this with the fact no 8th sense user HAS EVER SHOWN LOW GODLY REGEN or ACTUAL resurrection to the world of the living outside of "appearing as a soul" which you're counting as resurrection, does indeed disprove the notion of 8th sense low godly and type 4 immortality (or whatever type resurrection is).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

im going to try and comment tonight but i can't guarantee that. I got off work later than normal.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

If you disagree and think I'm wrong on something and want to discuss that like this, that's totally cool, that's what this site is for.

But you should understand the difference between thinking I'm saying something wrong and accusing me of intentionally lying or misrepresenting context.

Shun cannot wear a cloth that was reduced to nothingness. Therefore Shaka could not have been reduced to nothingness.

You've already debunked the facts Gold Cloths have AE levels of durability, in fact, pretty sure Niobe did some pretty significant damage to a gold cloth as did Sukiyo in ND, so the description of Shaka being reduced to nothingness SHOULD be accurate. So Shaka's cloth should be destroyed if he were killed. I know you know this because I know you don't agree Thanatos destroying the Virgo Cloth would HAVE to be an above AE level feat if Shaka were killed by it but his cloth literally didn't get a single scratch.

So already the Shaka death scene makes 0 sense, from a powerscaling and narrative standpoint.

Bear in mind I'm not saying here that it was inherently a spiritual cloth or whatever just because it's another plane of existence, but we have been given scenes to explain this (if not for just saying that Shaka was able to regenerate the Virgo Cloth).

Shiryu vs. Deathmask, Shiryu had a very clearly tangible physical copy of the Dragon Cloth in the YH independent of his copy in the Living World. Same could be said for Shaka.

What makes Shaka's death scene even more of a plot hole, is the fact he didn't need to awaken the 8th sense in that moment. As Dohko explains, Shaka was known amonsgt the gold saints has already having his Alaya awakened.

So we know Shaka's motives weren't actually to die to awaken the 8th sense, Dohko explains the 8th sense must be awakened prior to death and Shaka already had it.

We know the Virgo Gold Cloth couldn't have been hit by an AE, otherwise it would be reduced to nothingness and we know Shun wore the cloth that was supposedly nothingness later on.

His motive was to demonstrate to Saori how to awaken it, which he does by getting himself killed and sending her the message on the petals. That's why even after receiving the petals and understanding the truth of the situation, she says "now I get the meaning of your death", still reiterating that regardless, he did indeed die.

We ALSO KNOW it's the SAME cloth that was never destroyed since it was one of the 12 Golden Cloths that had been bathing in the sun since the age of myth, a cloth that was reduced to nothingness isn't bathing in anything, so the cloth at the wailing wall but be the same cloth.

So Shaka dying is the biggest plot hole in the arc, so yeah I do disagree with Shaka dying. Dohko says he entered the UW alive, and the cloth proves he never died to begin with.

That's just a general statement about the lore of the cloths. The same Gold Saints that comes from were the ones to acknowledge Shaka's destruction, cloth and all.

In particular, the one who said that, Dohko, where in the same scene they reveal the detail about going to the UW alive, he still asserts that Shaka died as evident by the fact Shiryu's response to him saying it emerges at death was extrapolating that based on that they must've awakened it.

Dohko:その死の直後現れるのが阿頼耶識... エイトセンシズなのだ!
Shiryu:そ...それではアテナは無論のこと シャカもその一 エイトセンシズを 発揮して..

If something lilke this isn't convincing enough to the fact Shaka died I don't know what to say.

 

[Hasty12345]

should understand the difference between thinking I'm saying something wrong and accusing me of intentionally lying or misrepresenting context.

I do, and I don't take back what I said.

 

[Hasty12345]

That's just a general statement about the lore of the cloths. The same Gold Saints that comes from were the ones to acknowledge Shaka's destruction, cloth and all.

Poseidon sent the physical cloth from the virgo temple to Elysium, the same cloth Shaka died in that HAD to be destroyed.

It's not the same the Shiryu's situation.

If something lilke this isn't convincing enough to the fact Shaka died I don't know what to say.

I'm not trusting deepL, I'd much prefer a human translator.

But it still doesn't change the fact there is no way around the virgo cloth being intact, the physical cloth was sent to Shun and cloths have been damaged by far less than an Athena Exclamation.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I think I still disagree, the explanations weren't enough to convince me.

 

[Hasty12345]

I think I still disagree, the explanations weren't enough to convince me.

what is it you're disagreeing too? there's like 40 things being proposed in the crt

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Poseidon sent the physical cloth from the virgo temple to Elysium, the same cloth Shaka died in that HAD to be destroyed.

It's not the same the Shiryu's situation.

No? When was any of that that ever shown? Poseidon and Sorento were literally in Cape Sounion when he suddenly did that and the Temples were never shown.

And the last time the Cloths were shown, they were still in limbo at the Wailing Wall.

And from the Greatest Eclipse it's confirmed the Gods TK abilities extends the range between the Underworld and Earth.

I'm not trusting deepL, I'd much prefer a human translator.

But it still doesn't change the fact there is no way around the virgo cloth being intact, the physical cloth was sent to Shun and cloths have been damaged by far less than an Athena Exclamation.

And that's literally why I even sent citations from japanese dictionaries with detailed explanations of that phrase proving they're in accordance, this is what I meant about you above.

And this doesn't change how many times they indicate Shaka did in fact die. At worst, if anything the plothole would be the Cloth being intact after being destroyed by the AE as you claim but this doesn't change the fact we saw him take the hit and get nuked onscreen and his death is confirmed multiple times, though it seems thinking that it is just unnecessarily convoluting the story considering there are other scenes to cross reference why this was the case. Shaka's death is not the plothole here.

 

[Hasty12345]

And from the Greatest Eclipse it's confirmed the Gods TK abilities extends the range between the Underworld and Earth.

I think you're right, I got confused with the Gemini, Cancer, Aquarius etc etc cloth going to the wailing wall with the 5 relevant cloths going to Elysium. my bad.

And that's literally why I even sent citations from japanese dictionaries with detailed explanations of that phrase proving they're in accordance, this is what I meant about you above.

what's that supposed to mean? I'm going off of an official licensed translation, you've sent me a MTL with a half baked lesson in Japanese grammar that I personally have no way of verifying. Me saying:

I'm not trusting deepL, I'd much prefer a human translator.

Is not only perfectly reasonable, I have actual reason to believe there could be an error in the MTL due to the fact the licensed product contradicts it.

If that's "what you meant about me above" then you're lost, because there's probably plenty of other things to have "meant about me".

And this doesn't change how many times they indicate Shaka did in fact die. At worst, if anything the plothole would be the Cloth being intact after being destroyed by the AE as you claim but this doesn't change the fact we saw him take the hit and get nuked onscreen and his death is confirmed multiple times, though it seems thinking that it is just unnecessarily convoluting the story considering there are other scenes to cross reference why this was the case. Shaka's death is not the plothole here.

And it's not like Kurumada to make unnecessary changes to his story on a whim that overly complicates or flat out ruins the plot. Try the fact ND is prefaced on a retcon, Lemur's existence, ND in general seems to have no direction outside climbing up a hill. So I personally wouldn't put it past Kurumada to write something stupid enough to actually contradict Shaka dying, and he has. So if that's the case then so be it.

The worst part about this whole debate thus far however?

You're claiming low godly and resurrection should stay when outside of the UW (i.e. the world of the living), Shaka and other 8th sense users have only ever manifested as a soul post their death. The UW is a spiritual plane of existence, they've never regenerated a PHYSICAL body nor by defintion, resurrect in the world of the living and thus also by definition, have never actually resurrected.

Your only argument, your only almost valid argument is Athena, and she's a god. Her body may be that of a human, but Gods can resurrect, Athena's only actual known form of immortality in Classic is resurrection, and it was shown her body "vanished" at some point along the way to the castle, so we can't even determine if she has a corpse. It's certainly not low godly regeneration, she only suffered a stab wound.

So we both know there aren't actual feats of resurrection and low godly regen, you're playing a semantics game with words like "alive" and "resurrect" when in context, resurrect doesn't mean type 4 immortality, and "alive" is as vaguely defined as "death" is throughout the Hades saga.

The abilities need to be removed from the profiles., and I'm almost ashamed I not only agreed with their addition, but also argued in the favour of the addition.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

what is it you're disagreeing too? there's like 40 things being proposed in the crt

I disagree with immeasurable speed and Tier 1

 

[Hasty12345]

I disagree with immeasurable speed and Tier 1

bro JJ and I aren't arguing that, you don't need to keep voicing your disagreements.

We are debating as to whether or not low godly golds and type 4 immortality will be removed or remain on the profiles.

I'm sure at some point big sis will update the voting tally

 

[Robo432343]

I disagree with immeasurable speed and Tier 1

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I disagree with immeasurable speed and Tier 1

Lets face it, youre not reading shit. You just want to disagree

 

[Ped2018]

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

bro JJ and I aren't arguing that, you don't need to keep voicing your disagreements.

We are debating as to whether or not low godly golds and type 4 immortality will be removed or remain on the profiles.

I'm sure at some point big sis will update the voting tally

You asked and I answered what you wanted to hear, that's all.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Lets face it, youre not reading shit. You just want to disagree

AND?

 

[Hasty12345]

You asked and I answered what you wanted to hear, that's all.

Yeah I'm just confused as to what you're disagreeing with because it sounded like you're just disagreeing with me and agreeing with Gemini when we're not arguing about tier 1 stuff at all for the most part.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

AND?

Are you really going to act as this is a good thing

 

[Death_of_Lems]

Lets face it, youre not reading shit. You just want to disagree

You saying something that makes me proud, this topic is really sacred.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I agree with 5D:

However, disagree strongly with Transduality.
Disagree with Acausality type 5.
Disagree with NEP type 2. Type 1 fits better.

Neutral on the immeasurable speed. It sounds like that's tied with feats from other characters.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

what's that supposed to mean? I'm going off of an official licensed translation, you've sent me a MTL with a half baked lesson in Japanese grammar that I personally have no way of verifying. Me saying:


Is not only perfectly reasonable, I have actual reason to believe there could be an error in the MTL due to the fact the licensed product contradicts it.

It's not half baked because it indicates something you don't want to believe.

And I made sure to even paste out the typeset of the raw so anyone can in fact immediately research and verify it. Feel free.

And what licensed product does it contradict? Viz?

I don't see how, the context's the same where Shiryu concludes Saori and Shaka awakened the 8th sense in response to Dohko explaining that it emerges at death.
Even the official spanish:

"Por eso" which literally means something equivalent to "therefore" "that's why" "per that." I'm failing to see any tangible contradiction.

And it's not like Kurumada to make unnecessary changes to his story on a whim that overly complicates or flat out ruins the plot. Try the fact ND is prefaced on a retcon, Lemur's existence, ND in general seems to have no direction outside climbing up a hill. So I personally wouldn't put it past Kurumada to write something stupid enough to actually contradict Shaka dying, and he has. So if that's the case then so be it.

So now it's about to go from Shaka never died in the first place to he died and it was contradicted or? Man..

Already explained why it's a stretch to call a contradiction off the cloth alone, and even if the cloth were really an unexplainable plothole, that's not enough of a contradiction to say him dying altogether was retconned or whatever you're trying to insinuate, considering that his and Saori's entire existence in the Underworld along with Dohko's explanation of the 8th sense and how to resist Hades' laws involves going there alive after awakening the 8th sense, which is done by doing it at the moment of... death. That was never retconned or contradicted.

You're claiming low godly and resurrection should stay when outside of the UW (i.e. the world of the living), Shaka and other 8th sense users have only ever manifested as a soul post their death. The UW is a spiritual plane of existence, they've never regenerated a PHYSICAL body nor by defintion, resurrect in the world of the living and thus also by definition, have never actually resurrected.

Your only argument, your only almost valid argument is Athena, and she's a god. Her body may be that of a human, but Gods can resurrect, Athena's only actual known form of immortality in Classic is resurrection, and it was shown her body "vanished" at some point along the way to the castle, so we can't even determine if she has a corpse. It's certainly not low godly regeneration, she only suffered a stab wound.

So we both know there aren't actual feats of resurrection and low godly regen, you're playing a semantics game with words like "alive" and "resurrect" when in context, resurrect doesn't mean type 4 immortality, and "alive" is as vaguely defined as "death" is throughout the Hades saga.

The abilities need to be removed from the profiles., and I'm almost ashamed I not only agreed with their addition, but also argued in the favour of the addition.

Shaka was not a soul in the Underworld pre Wailing Wall alive with a body, and that takes place after he was completely dusted prior. In this case the usage of semantics is perfectly valid, since alive and dead aren't remotely synonymous or usable to define each other. Saint Seiya's no different.

That's not the case for Athena who now can only periodically reincarnate as a regular human newborn baby with a new different body years after dying, on her own she can't resurrect in the way the 8th sense let her. Her body vanished because she went to the Underworld, her corpse was already shown prior before Saga wrapped it in the blanket, she literally fatally slits her throat and falls to the ground on panel.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I agree with 5D:

However, disagree strongly with Transduality.
Disagree with Acausality type 5.
Disagree with NEP type 2. Type 1 fits better.

Neutral on the immeasurable speed. It sounds like that's tied with feats from other characters.

Why do you disagree either them?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

It's not half baked because it indicates something you don't want to believe.

And I made sure to even paste out the typeset of the raw so anyone can in fact immediately research and verify it. Feel free.

And what licensed product does it contradict? Viz?

I don't see how, the context's the same where Shiryu concludes Saori and Shaka awakened the 8th sense in response to Dohko explaining that it emerges at death.
Even the official spanish:

"Por eso" which literally means something equivalent to "therefore" "that's why" "per that." I'm failing to see any tangible contradiction.

So now it's about to go from Shaka never died in the first place to he died and it was contradicted or? Man..

Already explained why it's a stretch to call a contradiction off the cloth alone, and even if the cloth were really an unexplainable plothole, that's not enough of a contradiction to say him dying altogether was retconned or whatever you're trying to insinuate, considering that his and Saori's entire existence in the Underworld along with Dohko's explanation of the 8th sense and how to resist Hades' laws involves going there alive after awakening the 8th sense, which is done by doing it at the moment of... death. That was never retconned or contradicted.

Shaka was not a soul in the Underworld pre Wailing Wall alive with a body, and that takes place after he was completely dusted prior. In this case the usage of semantics is perfectly valid, since alive and dead aren't remotely synonymous or usable to define each other. Saint Seiya's no different.

That's not the case for Athena who now can only periodically reincarnate as a regular human newborn baby with a new different body years after dying, on her own she can't resurrect in the way the 8th sense let her. Her body vanished because she went to the Underworld, her corpse was already shown prior before Saga wrapped it in the blanket, she literally fatally slits her throat and falls to the ground on panel.

2 Questions fir ya

Do you think they resurrect a new soul or physical body?

If you chose a new body. Why haven't they dud anything with their new bodies in ND? Why did Shaka have to use a Projection and still say he, himself, is still "dead."

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

New body

Because they haven't seen the need to and always got what they wanted done (protect Saori and Shijima, deflecting Gestalt's attack) and as souls? I don't see how them being complacent for whatever reason invalidates the feats they have, as for the nth time this could be said for the other abilities of the 8th sense too (agency as a soul, time travel). A projection being used in that scene doesn't mean he has to use a projection, in fact we know he doesn't since the Gold Saints came to the past on their own later.

 

[Hasty12345]

It's not half baked

It's half baked because in no way shape or form would it ever be considered an actual lesson in Japanese grammar, it's not meant to be taken as an insult it's meant to demonstrate to you that I'd much rather a human translation than MTL. If Unshakable had of made this CRT with a bunch of MTL's I wouldn't have even considered commenting on it.

I don't see how, the context's the same where Shiryu concludes Saori and Shaka awakened the 8th sense in response to Dohko explaining that it emerges at death.
Even the official spanish:

"just before death" is very different from "at death" in this case, as it's the difference between Shaka awaneking the 8th sense and going to the UW before the AE kills him and after.

And I don't know Spanish either, so quoting Spanish translations and explaining Spanish to me when I can't verify anything does me little good.

So now it's about to go from Shaka never died in the first place to he died and it was contradicted or? Man..

read the whole post, it's less about whether he did or didn't and more about Kurumada's lack of any form of consistency and borderline hate for not retconning important plot points.

Already explained why it's a stretch to call a contradiction off the cloth alone, and even if the cloth were really an unexplainable plothole, that's not enough of a contradiction to say him dying altogether was retconned or whatever you're trying to insinuate, considering that his and Saori's existence in the Underworld along with Dohko's explanation of the 8th sense and how to resist Hades' laws involves going there alive after awakening the 8th sense, which is done by doing it at the moment of... death.

Well it brings doubt to his death. I can't help Kurumada can't tell a single cohesive plot thread in the Hades arc (and tbh everything that comes after).

Shaka was not a soul in the Underworld pre Wailing Wall

Yes he was, his soul appeared in the salsa garden his body was reduced to nothingness, he was a soul. The UW is a spiritual plane of existence, even Shiryu could see in the UW due to this.

In this case the usage of semantics is perfectly valid, since alive and dead aren't remotely synonymous or usable to define each other. Saint Seiya's no different.

being "alive" and "dead" are a matter of belonging to the afterlife or the world of the living, they are certainly not defined as we would irl, they aren't defined by each other, never claimed that. But the series has a metaphysical aspect that cannot be ignored.

That's not the case for Athena who now can only periodically reincarnate as a regular human newborn baby with a new different body years after dying, on her own she can't resurrect in the way the 8th sense let her

Prove she "can't", because the 8th sense hasn't let anyone else resurrect when they should have, and it's absolutely in-character for the Golds to want to protect Athena, we see them do it as a soul. If "character flaw" is a good argument against that, then you haven't much if any argument for LC 8th sense users not being able to resurrect, they just "don't".

Her body vanished because she went to the Underworld, her corpse was already shown prior before Saga wrapped it in the blanket, she literally fatally slits her throat and falls to the ground on panel.

I agree, her body does indeed go to the UW, so how can she possibly have low godly?

"Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other non-physical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else."

 

[Hasty12345]

New body

Because they haven't seen the need to and always got what they wanted done (protect Saori and Shijima, deflecting Gestalt's attack) and as souls? I don't see how them being complacent for whatever reason invalidates the feats they have, as for the nth time this could be said for the other abilities of the 8th sense too (agency as a soul, time travel). A projection being used in that scene doesn't mean he has to use a projection, in fact we know he doesn't since the Gold Saints came to the past on their own later.

There in lies the problem. There are no feats.

And does Saori even have the 8th sense? Doesn't time travel as an 8th sense ability like massively contradict the plot of ND?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

New body

Because they haven't seen the need to and always got what they wanted done (protect Saori and Shijima, deflecting Gestalt's attack) and as souls? I don't see how them being complacent for whatever reason invalidates the feats they have, as for the nth time this could be said for the other abilities of the 8th sense too (agency as a soul, time travel). A projection being used in that scene doesn't mean he has to use a projection, in fact we know he doesn't since the Gold Saints came to the past on their own later.

And you do realize Aiolios in ND is confirmed dead, right?

Shaka is also confirmed dead too. Shun was even surprised to see him.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

It's half baked because in no way shape or form would it ever be considered an actual lesson in Japanese grammar, it's not meant to be taken as an insult it's meant to demonstrate to you that I'd much rather a human translation than MTL. If Unshakable had of made this CRT with a bunch of MTL's I wouldn't have even considered commenting on it.

It's an explanation on a single specific phrase not some general grammar thing, it doesn't need to be some elaborate explanation to get the point across. Again if you wanna play skeptic to what I post feel free to look into it for yourself. それでは put that into google and read into it.

"just before death" is very different from "at death" in this case, as it's the difference between Shaka awaneking the 8th sense and going to the UW before the AE kills him and after.

And I don't know Spanish either, so quoting Spanish translations and explaining Spanish to me when I can't verify anything does me little good.

Literal pointless nitpicking, the general idea of needing to die to awaken the 8th sense's there, that's all that matters. And I even typed out the phrase as to where one copy paste on google could verify that information.

read the whole post, it's less about whether he did or didn't and more about Kurumada's lack of any form of consistency and borderline hate for not retconning important plot points.

Well it brings doubt to his death. I can't help Kurumada can't tell a single cohesive plot thread in the Hades arc (and tbh everything that comes after).

It's not an inconsistency when there're already in series explanations like other planes having their own copies of the cloths. And even if it were one minor inconsistency doesn't invalidate such an integral plot point.

Yes he was, his soul appeared in the salsa garden his body was reduced to nothingness, he was a soul. The UW is a spiritual plane of existence, even Shiryu could see in the UW due to this.


being "alive" and "dead" are a matter of belonging to the afterlife or the world of the living, they are certainly not defined as we would irl, they aren't defined by each other, never claimed that. But the series has a metaphysical aspect that cannot be ignored.

Doesn't matter, Shiryu was clearly still with his physical living body.

Considering how the Bronze Saints were in the same boat in terms of what they needed to do (go to the UW alive) and this clearly involved their physical living bodies, the Gold Saints would be the same.

Prove she "can't", because the 8th sense hasn't let anyone else resurrect when they should have, and it's absolutely in-character for the Golds to want to protect Athena, we see them do it as a soul. If "character flaw" is a good argument against that, then you haven't much if any argument for LC 8th sense users not being able to resurrect, they just "don't".

I agree, her body does indeed go to the UW, so how can she possibly have low godly?

"Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other non-physical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else."

If she could there would be absolutely zero point in anyone being concerned about her death, or Hades' army being interested in seeing her corpse as if it'd confirm victory. LC isn't the same, Ahimsa and Asmita's interactions already make it clear they can't. The canon Gold Saints have directly shown they can and them not doing so just means they didn't see the need to, which is fine since got what they wanted to done without it.

The Low Godly comes from the Gold Saints' feats, Saori just has by proxy since she awakened the same ability.

And you do realize Aiolios in ND is confirmed dead, right?

Shaka is also confirmed dead too. Shun was even surprised to see him.

Because at the moment they're only dead souls. It's interesting how when that's the case, even after they have the 8th sense, they're considered dead, but in the Hades Arc Shaka was considered alive, almost as if he really did have a new body.

 

[Hasty12345]

Literal pointless nitpicking

Literal isn't. It changes the whole mechanic of how the 8th sense is obtained.

own copies of the cloths

Bro what? The UW has it's own set of Gold Cloths that have been bathed in sun light since the age of myth? I don't think so.

Doesn't matter, Shiryu was clearly still with his physical living body.

Considering how the Bronze Saints were in the same boat in terms of what they needed to do (go to the UW alive) and this clearly involved their physical living bodies, the Gold Saints would be the same.

It does matter, it absolutely does matter because Shiryu can't see, he's blind. The UW is a spiritual plane of existence, Shaka doesn't have a body, it was reduced to nothingness.

Shaka's body was literally reduced to nothingness, the bronzes weren't, neither was Athena's. Shaka's soul has shown on 3 occasions to emerge outside the UW, and on all 3 of those occasions he's confirmed to be dead, and has no physical body.

There are no feats of low godly regeneration in MO.

Ahimsa and Asmita's interactions already make it clear they can't.

No their interaction indicates Asmita can't create whole new bodies for someone else, which is fine because Saori never lost her physical body as she took it to the Underworld, and Shaka has never shown the ability to either.

The Low Godly comes from the Gold Saints' feats

What feats bro? in-corporeality isn't low godly regen, and if the UW has it's own copy of the gold cloths (weird head canon btw) then why doesn't it have copies of the bodies of the Golds as well (weird head canon that debunks you whole argument)?

They are literally confirmed DEAD in ND and none of them can regen a body, nor have shown the ability to.

The only post Shaka's-death interaction Shaka has ever had with the world of the living is as a soul, same goes for every Gold Saint for that matter. You've already admitted Saori took her physical body to the UW, and Shaka was already a soul before he got down there.

Because at the moment they're only dead souls. It's interesting how when that's the case, even after they have the 8th sense, they're considered dead, but in the Hades Arc Shaka was considered alive, almost as if he really did have a new body.

Why not make a new one bro? like seriously, it's a distinction without a difference at this point, because according to you Shaka can just make a new body whenever he wants, there'd be no reason for any character to EVER call him dead.

It's almost like they can't regen a new body and only exist as souls and whilst may in some weird metaphysical sense still be "alive", as far as wiki standards are concerned, they are dead and they don't qualify for type 4 immortality nor low godly regen.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Because at the moment they're only dead souls. It's interesting how when that's the case, even after they have the 8th sense, they're considered dead, but in the Hades Arc Shaka was considered alive, almost as if he really did have a new body.

Sounds like yoir changing up yoir argument here.

Alive in the same sense that ichigo is alive even his souls is not in his body.

Also the Regeneration page is against yoir claims

Regeneration

Regeneration, often referred to as a healing factor, is the ability to passively heal oneself from wounds at an accelerated rate, with many characters proving capable of regenerating from wounds that would be lethal to normal humans. It has several different levels that range in potency from...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Instances of characters being wounded and inexplicably recovering off-screen should not be taken as evidence of regeneration unless supported by further context. This is due to reasons ranging from the possibility of off-screen treatment to continuity errors. See this thread for reference.

Assuming they can regen a new body is pure assumption with cleat anti feats and extrapolate for a higher end feat.

 

[Hasty12345]

I find it really weird a distinction is being made between "dead" and "alive" souls like what??

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Why do you disagree either them?

For transduality, I didn't see anything that for sure confirmed that the things being mentioned were platonic concepts and not simply nominal ones.

For Acausality, I didn't see anything that shown that the characters would be absolutely and actively immune to change or completely unaffected by anything.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

For transduality, I didn't see anything that for sure confirmed that the things being mentioned were platonic concepts and not simply nominal ones.

For Acausality, I didn't see anything that shown that the characters would be absolutely and actively immune to change or completely unaffected by anything.

I thought there was a thread where "them being concepts" is unneeded and was too specific

Their souls and mind becomes unchanging. I'll explain that in more detail soon

 

[Vietthai96]

This is so long that people have a hard time to read i swear, controversial thing such as transdual, aca 5, tier 1 and immeasurable speed should be put in different thread

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This is so long that people have a hard time to read i swear, controversial thing such as transdual, aca 5, tier 1 and immeasurable speed should be put in different thread

The thing is. These are 8th sense abilities and it's important to conancity blog. It's interconnected

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Literal isn't. It changes the whole mechanic of how the 8th sense is obtained.

Bro what? The UW has it's own set of Gold Cloths that have been bathed in sun light since the age of myth? I don't think so.

All it changes is when it emerges, it doesn't change what's relevant to the topic which is that it takes dying to awaken it. But if you really insist on this irrelevant detail we can just post this on the translation request thread or something and go from there.

We don't know the nature of the UW Cloths other than the fact they come as intact copies of the living ones. What even is your point? You've seemingly moved on to saying Shaka was an incorporeal soul below yet continue to argue to argue implying he also didn't die at all or that it's contradicted.

It does matter, it absolutely does matter because Shiryu can't see, he's blind. The UW is a spiritual plane of existence, Shaka doesn't have a body, it was reduced to nothingness.

Shaka's body was literally reduced to nothingness, the bronzes weren't, neither was Athena's. Shaka's soul has shown on 3 occasions to emerge outside the UW, and on all 3 of those occasions he's confirmed to be dead, and has no physical body.

There are no feats of low godly regeneration in MO.

That doesn't change the fact Shiryu had his physical body there and him and all the other Gold Saints and Saori were in the same state at that time.

Literally, Dohko gives the explanation to the Bronze Saints that have to reach the UW alive in the same boat as Shaka and co. and survive the descent with their physical bodies, and they return to the Living World with these same physical bodies and are alive.

No their interaction indicates Asmita can't create whole new bodies for someone else, which is fine because Saori never lost her physical body as she took it to the Underworld, and Shaka has never shown the ability to either.

That's right, and the fact that Ahimsa (an 8th sense user, literally that entire arc happens because he awakened the 8th sense and kept his agency when he went to Hell so the Specters come harass him) would ask Asmita for this help and can't do this himself confirms they can't.

What feats bro? in-corporeality isn't low godly regen, and if the UW has it's own copy of the gold cloths (weird head canon btw) then why doesn't it have copies of the bodies of the Golds as well (weird head canon that debunks you whole argument)?

They are literally confirmed DEAD in ND and none of them can regen a body, nor have shown the ability to.

The only post Shaka's-death interaction Shaka has ever had with the world of the living is as a soul, same goes for every Gold Saint for that matter. You've already admitted Saori took her physical body to the UW, and Shaka was already a soul before he got down there.

Why not make a new one bro? like seriously, it's a distinction without a difference at this point, because according to you Shaka can just make a new body whenever he wants, there'd be no reason for any character to EVER call him dead.

It's almost like they can't regen a new body and only exist as souls and whilst may in some weird metaphysical sense still be "alive", as far as wiki standards are concerned, they are dead and they don't qualify for type 4 immortality nor low godly regen.

Not headcanon this was already shown in Shiryu vs. Deathmask.

She did, and that requirement was unanimously imposed on all of them by Dohko (he literally even tells the Bronze Saints to do what Shaka and Saori did going there alive), confirming he had to have a new body.

For the rest it's the simple fact souls with no body aren't alive.

Sounds like yoir changing up yoir argument here.

Alive in the same sense that ichigo is alive even his souls is not in his body.

Also the Regeneration page is against yoir claims



Assuming they can regen a new body is pure assumption with cleat anti feats and extrapolate for a higher end feat.

I don't think I changed anything, Bleach logic with Konpaku or whatever doesn't apply here when ghosts and souls on their own are considered dead in the story.

I find it really weird a distinction is being made between "dead" and "alive" souls like what??

That was never the argument, but rather that souls of killed bodies classify as dead and it wouldn't make sense for Shaka to be called alive afterwards multiple times if he was just a soul.

 

[Hasty12345]

We don't know the nature of the UW Cloths other than the fact they come as intact copies of the living ones. What even is your point? You've seemingly moved on to saying Shaka was an incorporeal soul below yet continue to argue to argue implying he also didn't die at all.

What's your point? You're now fabricating this weird head canon the UW has gold cloths now to get around glaring holes in your arguemnt.

That's right, and the fact that Ahimsa (an 8th sense user, literally that entire arc happens because he awakened the 8th sense and kept his agency when he went to Hell so the Specters come harass him) would ask Asmita for this help and can't do this himself confirms they can't.

Shaka never makes himself a new body either and neither does Athena.

Shaka was shown to be a soul prior to going to the UW and by your own admission Saori took her body, where's the regen bro? I don't see anything that qualifies for low godly.

That doesn't change the fact Shiryu had his physical body there and him and all the other Gold Saints and Saori were in the same state at that time.

Literally, Dohko gives the explanation to the Bronze Saints that have to reach the UW alive in the same boat as Shaka and co. and survive the descent with their physical bodies, and they return to the Living World with these same physical bodies and are alive.

except Shaka's physical body was reduced to nothingness by the AE, and is only shown to be a soul afterwards.

again, "alive" is an ill defined term, 8th sense users are also described as dead despite you thinking they have these regen capabilities, Shaka should never be described as dead by your interpretation.

But "alive" and "dead" is only a matter of how you interact with the UW and Hades' law in the greater context of the arc.

confirming he had to have a new body.

why does being called "alive" prove he has a new body? He's explicitly called a soul post being hit by an AE.

Alive by definition just means "not dead", being able to freely travel between the world of the living and world of the dead as a soul doesn't sound like being dead to me.

Definition of ALIVE

having life : not dead or inanimate; still in existence, force, or operation : active; still active in competition with a chance of victory… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

So since Shaka actually fits the definition of alive without having a physical body doesn't actually help you in any way shape or form.

Dohko just says you need to be "alive' not have your physical body.

That was never the argument, but rather that souls of killed bodies classify as dead and it wouldn't make sense for Shaka to be called alive afterwards multiple times if he was just a soul.

No, only non 8th sense users were described as "dead", 8th sense users fit the definition of alive just as good as those who enter the UW with 8th sense and a physical body.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I thought there was a thread where "them being concepts" is unneeded and was too specific

Was there?

Their souls and mind becomes unchanging. I'll explain that in more detail soon

Then wouldn't more fit as resistance to mind and soul manipulation than Acausality 5?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Was there?


Then wouldn't more fit as resistance to mind and soul manipulation than Acausality 5?

I'll have to respond tomorrow. A lot going on irl