-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
(Complete Saint Seiya verse Overhaul Part 1) - Perhaps one of the top 10 most ambitious overhauls to a verse in vswiki history?
- Thread starter TheUnshakableOne
- Start date
-
- Tags
- saint seiya
- Status
- 957
- 1,301
My point is that Shaka died. A hole in what? The fact Shaka died?
He was a soul because he had just gotten obliterated. Saori did regenerate, you can see how she had a fatal wound to her throat and also significant blood loss subsequently while Saga carried her in the blanket. It's clear evidence of resurrection, and the extent of Low Godly would come the Gold Saints.
I don't see Ikki not being considered dead for the time he's killed even though he can resurrect in a similar fashion. Or like how in Next Dimension it's still reiterated that Athena was killed in the Hades Arc. The ability to resurrect =/= you aren't considered dead while you're literally dead.again, "alive" is an ill defined term, 8th sense users are also described as dead despite you thinking they have these regen capabilities, Shaka should never be described as dead by your interpretation.
But "alive" and "dead" is only a matter of how you interact with the UW and Hades' law in the greater context of the arc.
why does being called "alive" prove he has a new body? He's explicitly called a soul post being hit by an AE.
Alive by definition just means "not dead", being able to freely travel between the world of the living and world of the dead as a soul doesn't sound like being dead to me.
Definition of ALIVE
having life : not dead or inanimate; still in existence, force, or operation : active; still active in competition with a chance of victory… See the full definitionwww.merriam-webster.com
So since Shaka actually fits the definition of alive without having a physical body doesn't actually help you in any way shape or form.
Dohko just says you need to be "alive' not have your physical body.
No, only non 8th sense users were described as "dead", 8th sense users fit the definition of alive just as good as those who enter the UW with 8th sense and a physical body.
Because of how it's used in the story and how Dohko places the Bronze Saints (who were required to make it there alive with their physical bodies, he even says to survive the descent), in this case as usual it's what it means. Like Dohko literally even contrasts the notion of being alive with the standard notion of being dead as a soul in the UW in that dialogue, which doesn't make sense if he's simply referring to having a dimensional travel ability or agency as a soul as being alive. If that were the case someone like Sanctuary Arc Aiolos would be considered alive by all means, but he's not.
Refer to the Shiryu vs. Deathmask and how Shiryu had a different physical copy of the Dragon Cloth there.
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,350
- 4,197
So Saori regenerating a cut is like low regen, I think you're confusing "low" and "low-godly".
Shaka IS a soul, not "was" a soul, there's 0 evidence he had a physical body post AE.
No, but it does contradict them being alive in the way you're describing.
never stated.
You've got it backwards.
8th sense users can't regenerate their body that's why it's important the bronzes don't die/keep their physical bodies, Shaka's missive demonstrated his resolve to lose his physical existence for Athena.
The bronzes only awaken their 8th sense for a moment via a miracle and Athena's blood, they wouldn't be able to return to the world of the living in the event they lost their body, unlike Shaka who has had the 8th sense for an unknown period of time.
It's literally because they can't regenerate their physical existence that it's important they don't lose it. Shaka's missive was a demonstration of his resolve to Athena.
Shaka exists as a soul from the moment the AE reduces his physical existence to nothingness.
None of the Gold Saints are considered alive post Hades arc.
But as I've proved, they fit the definition of being "alive" just fine in either case.
Crazy how there's no sunlight in the UW but the UW Virgo copy cloth has bathed in the sun since the age of myth.
- 6,489
- 1,704
- Thread starter
- #324
Alright, I'm dropping transduality. Didn't realize that the dualities in question must be proven to be Conceptual. I thought there was discussion on that somewhere where they didn't have too, but I couldn't find it.
Rabbit2002
She/Her- 2,633
- 1,406
Currently, I fully agree with this crt
- 34
- 14
Okay this will be my one and only comment so I’ll give my insight
1. I agree with the 5D scaling since it’s so blatant that taking it any other way seems to be a reach and mental gymnastics, the rest I cba to go over since I’m not too knowledged on those topics
2. there’s so many ways to take the 8th sense and it granting Low Godly but the narrative of the story is that the 8th Sense doesn’t allow for resurrection of the physical body, this is the most reasonable because we never see any 8th sense awakened Gold Saint across all installations resurrect when in times of need, such as GA, they never resurrected and had to be brought back after being pronounced “dead”. This is also evident in TLC when the souls of the Golds appeared to help Shion and Dohko and whenever Asmita meets and talks to Defteros who pronounced him as dead. The Classic and ND also calls the Gold Saints dead and they all have awakened to the 8th sense.
Now the Golds with the 8th sense imo can regenerate their soul as shown in ND when they helped Shijima and Athena despite their souls being destroyed at the Wailing Wall but the feat for Shaka is EXTREMELY VAGUE to say Low Godly for all 8th sense users.
And if by chance, you do say Shaka is there with his body which I won’t leave out the possibility Because his scene was extremely vague, going by the definition in the “Regeneration” category, anything shown offscreen can’t be used because it allows for offscreen treatment in any way, form or fashion.
TLDR; Low Godly for the Golds is going off of an extremely vague scene and has absolutely nothing supporting it besides Shaka’s vague scene that we know nothing about when it comes to details and it would go against the narrative of the series which doesn’t allow for Golds to resurrect. The only Saint and cloth we know that can resurrect at will is Ikki and the Phoenix Cloth, nobody else and this is a strong narrative of the series as well. So it’s pointless to derail the thread.
1. I agree with the 5D scaling since it’s so blatant that taking it any other way seems to be a reach and mental gymnastics, the rest I cba to go over since I’m not too knowledged on those topics
2. there’s so many ways to take the 8th sense and it granting Low Godly but the narrative of the story is that the 8th Sense doesn’t allow for resurrection of the physical body, this is the most reasonable because we never see any 8th sense awakened Gold Saint across all installations resurrect when in times of need, such as GA, they never resurrected and had to be brought back after being pronounced “dead”. This is also evident in TLC when the souls of the Golds appeared to help Shion and Dohko and whenever Asmita meets and talks to Defteros who pronounced him as dead. The Classic and ND also calls the Gold Saints dead and they all have awakened to the 8th sense.
Now the Golds with the 8th sense imo can regenerate their soul as shown in ND when they helped Shijima and Athena despite their souls being destroyed at the Wailing Wall but the feat for Shaka is EXTREMELY VAGUE to say Low Godly for all 8th sense users.
And if by chance, you do say Shaka is there with his body which I won’t leave out the possibility Because his scene was extremely vague, going by the definition in the “Regeneration” category, anything shown offscreen can’t be used because it allows for offscreen treatment in any way, form or fashion.
TLDR; Low Godly for the Golds is going off of an extremely vague scene and has absolutely nothing supporting it besides Shaka’s vague scene that we know nothing about when it comes to details and it would go against the narrative of the series which doesn’t allow for Golds to resurrect. The only Saint and cloth we know that can resurrect at will is Ikki and the Phoenix Cloth, nobody else and this is a strong narrative of the series as well. So it’s pointless to derail the thread.
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,350
- 4,197
Is regenerating your soul from soul destruction low godly even if you can’t regenerate your physical existence?
Rabbit2002
She/Her- 2,633
- 1,406
Yeah, it's still low godly regenerate
Abu2411
He/Him- 1,388
- 642
How are the dualities not conceptual btw?
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,350
- 4,197
if that's the case, I'd agree to low godly OF the soul.
Still agree with the removal of low godly as it is now though
- 6,489
- 1,704
- Thread starter
- #331
That's actually soul Manipulation its nor regen iirc. There was a thread on it
- 6,489
- 1,704
- Thread starter
- #332
Apparently I'd need to prove that what is stated behaves like a conceot
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,350
- 4,197
I see.
Abu2411
He/Him- 1,388
- 642
Aren't fate and causality all encompassed by the concept of karma?
Rabbit2002
She/Her- 2,633
- 1,406
I recalled that, everyone agree regenerate a soul alone is just resurrection instead of low godly regenerate
- 957
- 1,301
It doesn't contradict anything as long as they remain dead as only souls. If they were ever called alive in ND then you might have a point.
That was never the reason he gave, keeping their bodies in itself (thus, being alive) was the criteria for "reaching the UW alive"and being there immune to Hades' laws and fight him and his army, which is in itself is self evident in the fact they didn't actively even have the 8th sense while in the UW yet accomplished exactly that, by simply being actually alive.
Yet souls aren't considered alive in the story and contextually, Dohko in that scene clearly juxtaposes being alive with the notion of a literal death and not just self awareness or being in operation or whatever alternate definition you're implying.
Reaching the UW alive is very obviously meant in the sense of just reaching that place as a literal living being and is contrasted with literal death, which again is self evident in the Bronze Saints not even having the 8th sense in the Underworld after.
What you're claiming here is that being effectively no different from other dead souls aside from having self agency (even though as SS Origin and both MO show, even in the UW they have that regardless of the 8th sense). You can't just arbitrarily shift in universe terminology back and forth to suit what you want to be the case "oh yeah, even though souls without a body are always considered dead even in ND, the one time they were called literally alive just means they were 8th sense awakened even though they continue calling said 8th sense awakened souls dead in ND." According to what you say is the definition Saga, Camus, Shura in Origin would've already been considered alive in the UW, but they're not. The idea here is that one must be a living being to actually rebel against Hades in his domain per his laws, it's not something as simple as being alive in the sense of the other definitions you linked.
At any rate, this matter of what dead or alive means can be solved even easier.
The exact phrase Dohko and Shiryu use is 死ぬことなく生きたまま which is literally "staying alive without dying" (as the Bronze Saints did), and Shiryu says it for Shaka and Saori directly.
If I had this information verified on https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translation-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/ would that be enough?
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,350
- 4,197
I'm not going to respond to a bunch of debunked arguments.
Shaka's body was reduced to nothingness. Therefore Dohko's definition of alive does actually extend to what Shaka is. Having a physical body is never stated to be required to defeat Hades, that's pure head canon.
forgetting that it goes against wiki standards to grant low godly regen to character who do it off screen in an unknown way, equating Shaka who was a very well known 8th sense user to 6 characters who only awakened it for the briefest moment due to a divine amp and a miracle and in some way pretending they're comparable situations is hilarious.
ND contradicts your whole argument directly twice (with 2 very direct statements of the dead not being able to come back to life) and two more times in narrative where Shaka (14 times in narrative if you want to include all the other Golds appearances). that not only are the Gold Saints dead but can only interact with the world of the living as souls.
At this point I'm going to let staff decide.
Shaka's body was reduced to nothingness. Therefore Dohko's definition of alive does actually extend to what Shaka is. Having a physical body is never stated to be required to defeat Hades, that's pure head canon.
No because Shaka has never shown resurrection capabilities beyond head canon, and the 3 times he interacted with the world of the living post death he was a soul. That's very clear evidence he can't create a new body. Shura even attempted to strike him to confirm he was dead in which Kurumada very painfully showed us in the most absolute way possible Shaka was a soul.
forgetting that it goes against wiki standards to grant low godly regen to character who do it off screen in an unknown way, equating Shaka who was a very well known 8th sense user to 6 characters who only awakened it for the briefest moment due to a divine amp and a miracle and in some way pretending they're comparable situations is hilarious.
ND contradicts your whole argument directly twice (with 2 very direct statements of the dead not being able to come back to life) and two more times in narrative where Shaka (14 times in narrative if you want to include all the other Golds appearances). that not only are the Gold Saints dead but can only interact with the world of the living as souls.
At this point I'm going to let staff decide.
- 957
- 1,301
It's crazy how many things could be downgraded or removed with this never showed it or did it when there was no need somehow means they can't logic
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,350
- 4,197
go for it
- 957
- 1,301
More wrongs don't right a wrong so no. If the Gold Saints had ever needed to create a body in the appearances they made or them not doing so resulted in some setback in the situation it'd make sense but they got what they wanted done as souls so it's not an anti feat.
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,350
- 4,197
We also never saw the regen happen you're just assuming it had to happen when it actually didn't, and it never happens again in the franchise.
- 957
- 1,301
I've given the most adequate explanations I can as to why them regenerating is a fact, so as you say at this point it's on the mods to decide if it's enough for the Low Godly to stay or it goes.
- 32,835
- 38,111
Nope. It's just Resurrection. We tried it with Kratos regenerating only his soul from Hope and not regenerating his body. Didn't fly, ended up being Resurrection.
- 32,835
- 38,111
It won't be regen in any sensible word. It'd be just Resurrection.
- 12,253
- 6,204
What about 5D?
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,350
- 4,197
Ok so then I agree resurrection can stay but it’s not resurrection of the body, it’s soul resurrection.
- 15,944
- 12,345
Was asked to comment here.
I don't have the time to do a deep dive into this and I have virtually no knowledge on the series, however, the canon blog seems fine, and I think NEP for the 9th sense is ok but I think those knowledgeable in SS would give more valid response to 8th sense stuff plus you asking the wrong person about higher dimensional stuff. Though the comments made by Executor_N0 look valid regarding it.
I don't have the time to do a deep dive into this and I have virtually no knowledge on the series, however, the canon blog seems fine, and I think NEP for the 9th sense is ok but I think those knowledgeable in SS would give more valid response to 8th sense stuff plus you asking the wrong person about higher dimensional stuff. Though the comments made by Executor_N0 look valid regarding it.
Georredannea15
He/Him- 4,726
- 3,123
I think NEP is only Type 1 because I didn't see the "turning from nothingness deeper into nothingness" thing they were talking about in the scans. But your comment is more important than mine.
- 15,944
- 12,345
Fair enough.I think NEP is only Type 1 because I didn't see the "turning from nothingness deeper into nothingness" thing they were talking about in the scans. But your comment is more important than mine.
- 11,559
- 10,996
Being more nothing than another nothing isn't the only way to get NEP Type 2. It's just the easy way
- 6,489
- 1,704
- Thread starter
- #351
What are the other ways?
Because that's what tge 9th Sense is doing. Irs becomh a deeper nothingness than an already deep nothingness
- 11,559
- 10,996
If the inexistence is so ******* inexistent to the point where it's more "older" than a type 1 concept (Something independent of the existence itself) than NEP Type 2 is fine
Type 2 it's just inexistence in a more abstract level, where you can't just define the inexistence as simple as "the opposite of creation"
Type 2 it's just inexistence in a more abstract level, where you can't just define the inexistence as simple as "the opposite of creation"
- 6,489
- 1,704
- Thread starter
- #353
My reasoning for Type 2 NEP is because
the 8th sense is the "Framework" that makes up an individual existence. That "Framework" would include "Dunamis" which is a form of nothingness that makes up the whole verse. When the 9th sense is awakened the 8th sense (The framework that builds up a characters existence) is destroyed. That would include the the nothingness they are made of is also "destroyed" and they achieve a deeper state of nothingness with this destruction.
Dunamis is also a primordial "Chaos/Nothigness" that predates the entirety of the cosmology sturcture of the verse except Gaia. Which would include type 1 concepts such as Karma.
the 8th sense is the "Framework" that makes up an individual existence. That "Framework" would include "Dunamis" which is a form of nothingness that makes up the whole verse. When the 9th sense is awakened the 8th sense (The framework that builds up a characters existence) is destroyed. That would include the the nothingness they are made of is also "destroyed" and they achieve a deeper state of nothingness with this destruction.
Dunamis is also a primordial "Chaos/Nothigness" that predates the entirety of the cosmology sturcture of the verse except Gaia. Which would include type 1 concepts such as Karma.
Georredannea15
He/Him- 4,726
- 3,123
But for that you need a little more statement. Sorry man this looks like a clean NEP1.
But what you said is true (logically)
- 857
- 274
Sorry for tagging, do we need more staff input? It seems 3 staff have agreed.
Georredannea15
He/Him- 4,726
- 3,123
But there are those who do not accept Acausality Type 5, 5D, NEP2 and TD. So at least I didn't see any staff participating in Aca5 and 5D.
- 857
- 274
Georredannea15
He/Him- 4,726
- 3,123
So I hope it gets accepted. But Acausality Type 5, 5D and NEP2 should be discussed. Because there was no definite explanation about these 3 things from the incoming staff.
Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,350
- 4,197
Executor agreed with 5D and Griffin implied he agrees with/trusts Executors judgement.
the abilities have been mostly untouched but 5D has agrees.
the abilities have been mostly untouched but 5D has agrees.
- Status
