COLLIDING FISTS OF KI! Son Goku vs Akuma

[EnoYaka]

Cal says goku wouldn't be able to "predict" Akuma but that seems pretty wrong based off Goku being a martial arts genius and being able to predict hit's time stop for example, and sensing ki says otherwise. (goku was able to predict if Trunks would attack him during android saga by reading his heart.) heart read, sensing, + instant transmission, = damn good. I give goku with mid/easy difficulty..

 

[Miles_Romero12]

All peoplr who voted for Akuma because of the Raging Demon should try to explain why they think it will work on Goku if it didnt work on Asura TWICE.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Lol at people who think Asura can survive the Raging Demon. He did becauae of game mechanics. Did you really think they'd let Oni win in Asura's game? Also saying Raging Demon isn't a OTK because it deals a percentage of hralth in damage in the game is really, really wrong.

Also Goku can't escape it with IT since he needs to concentrate to perform it. Pretty hard to do when when your soul is getting attacked relentlessly.

Again how would Goku know what the Demon does and hiw dangerous is it? Yes Goku can sense evil ki so what? Every opponent of his had en evil Ki. With that logic hr would never hit by anything.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Not to mention that when he was fighting Evil Ryu, he only used two arms.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Oh, so cherry picking which times its canon is your argument?

Both of those Raging Demons ARE SCRIPTED events from the episode.

This episode shows that you can reduce the damage in your soul by countering/blocking blows.

If Asura can counter Evil ryu's Ranging demon with both of his hands, why cant Goku?


I said Goku can sense evil ki to argue he wouldnt test Oni's strenght for long and will go for the kill sooner than later.

Not to mention you are IMPLYING Goku would let himself be hit by an attack blindly just because "He wouldnt know it was dangerous!"

He is in a battle, i think its safe to assume that anything your opponent is doing has the purpouse of killing you.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

BUMp

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Well…Oni can win this more and btw despite being a pure heart Oni can still kill via the RD because Gouken who is pure hearted i think (cause he is a pacifist plus tried to make the assassin's fist more controlled and not just kill but he needed to take out his soul to live plus Akuma said the more sins the more painful but not if you are sinless u live

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Goku: 7

Akuma: 9

Inconclusive: 2

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Are people even listening to me at this point?

Democracy was a mistake.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Well…Oni can win this more and btw despite being a pure heart Oni can still kill via the RD because Gouken who is pure hearted i think (cause he is a pacifist plus tried to make the assassin's fist more controlled and not just kill but he needed to take out his soul to live plus Akuma said the more sins the more painful but not if you are sinless u live

Please read the post.

Goku can block the raging demon just as Asura can. Asura survived it TWICE and my opponents have NOT disproven the obvious favt that the raging demon CAN be countered.

Asura DID NOT transfer his soul anywhere. And he is obviously not as pure as Gouken.

If you cant disprove Asura's feats, Goku SHOULD WIN.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Really.

I dont think this match should end until someone who voted for Akuma explains this obvious proof that the raging demon is a combo and NOT a 1 hit kill.

https://youtu.be/Q3jlJbM6K5I?t=7m37s Okay in this part (Which could be considered game mechanics even if scripted) shows Akuma hitting Asura with the Raging Demon, Even if perfectly executed, the game still deals a blow to Asura´s lifebar.

This blow isnt an instant game over nor implies Asura´s soul got obliterated.

https://youtu.be/aUB6jidsS5A?t=9m25s

Asura DID NOT transfer his soul anywhere and his soul is not as pure as Gouken.

This only means one thing: It can be blocked and can be survived multiple times.

With the raging demon out of the way, Goku has the edge on literally every aspect but stamina.

Asura survived TWO Raging Demons. Why cant Goku?

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Are people even listening to me at this point?
Democracy was a mistake.

I've listened and here is my response to some of your statements.

Asura managed to withstand the effects of the Raging Demon twice! He also didn't need to use the power of nothingness either; therefore, Goku should be able to withstand it!

Use some deductive reasoning man, if the raging demon attacks the soul; Asura was able to withstand it then logically Asura has a feat which gives him resistance to soul manipulation. Which as far as I know, Goku doesn't have (resistance to soul manipulation). You also made a mistake of assuming the power of nothingness is the one & only way to counter the raging demon, which is not really the case at all. If one has shown feats of withstanding damage to the soul, then that's all you really need.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Asura literally never faced any soul attack before in the Non-Canon Episode nor in the main game.

And the method he used to counter the raging demon twice is...Punching back.

He blocked Evil Ryu´s Raging Demon with two hands.


So, i find that most people who voted for Akuma because "the raging demon is a DEFINITIVE one hit kill and Goku doesnt get ANYTHING by countering blows nor having a pure heart" are flat-out Wanking.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

and yet that's a non-canon episode so Asura doesn't have that for real… if that's the case you know ANYONE can just do that like idk Gill or M. Biso.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

You are confusing Non-Canon Akuma and Main Timeline Akuma.

Main Timeline Akuma is still High 7-A to 6-C. All Street Fighter characters (Exept maybe Ingrid) are on that range.

Maybe characters on that tier are just not strong enough to survive the attack.

Just as cal said, Gill can RESURRECT. and Bison can SOUL TRANSFER.


Now, since this is a non-canon episode it is also valid to assume the Raging Demon from this Akuma is just not as strong as the regular Raging Demon since someone with no resistance to soul attacks can block it or endure multiple uses of this technique on him.


There is literally nothing Asura has that Goku wouldn´t have on this situation.

Also, most of you who voted for Akuma still ignore that Goku can charge his attacks as much as he wants with Instant Transmission and use it just like he did with Cell.

Goku KNOWS Akuma is evil and will eventually go for the kill because of his evil ki sensing.

And the Spirit Bomb would have effect on Akuma.

Not to mention Cal thinks Goku takes MINUTES to charge attacks.


Sorry, but what else is there left to discuss here?

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

"Asura literally never faced any soul attack before in the Non-Canon Episode nor in the main game."

I think you've forgotten about the raging demon, which is odd considering you've made a very big point at how Asura was able to withstand it.

"And the method he used to counter the raging demon twice is...Punching back. He blocked Evil Ryu´s Raging Demon with two hands."

And this changes the fact that the raging demon does damage to the soul? You do know that attacks that harm the soul don't need some abstract portrayal to prove it does indeed harm the soul right? And no, you don't just counter such a technique by punching back. You just have a resistance to such techniques, think of it like Superman physically blocking a knife stab (if you don't get it, I mean that sure he performed some manoeuvre to block it, but due to his durability a normal human doing the same thing would just get his arms pierced).

"the raging demon is a DEFINITIVE one hit kill and Goku doesn't get ANYTHING by countering blows nor having a pure heart" are flat-out Wanking."

Talking about wank, it's funny that you accuse others of doing so when you think having a "pure heart" should play a major role whilst being hit by a move which harms the soul. What a joke.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

"I think you've forgotten about the raging demon, which is odd considering you've made a very big point at how Asura was able to withstand it."

I wasn´t refering to that, but lemme explain myself better.

Asura hasn´t faced soul atttacks in his main game nor in the non-canon episodes BEFORE the Raging Demon nor has shown any damage to his soul.

Of course, he also didnt need to tranfer his soul to another body, ressurect or embrace the power of Nothingness.

"And this changes the fact that the raging demon does damage to the soul? You do know that attacks that harm the soul don't need some abstract portrayal to prove it does indeed harm the soul right? And no, you don't just counter such a technique by punching back. You just have a resistance to such techniques, think of it like someone physically blocking a spatial attack."

In most fictional verses, destroying ones soul kills them or turns them into brainless bodies of meat, something that has happened in the street Fighter verse. (Gill needed to "resurrect" in the Udon Comics, Bison in Street Fighter 2 "died", and Gouken did suffer physical damage.)

So, with these examples i think i can surely confirm that the Raging Demon MUST show some physical contact or damage.

Which is it logical for Asura to reduce/cancel damage by blocking the Raging Demon Combo.

(In both this game and in Street Fighter its NOT considered a one hit attack, its a combo.

Of course, the combo count in the games range from 13-31 hits, but if you consider that "game mechanics", in Street Fighter V it SHOWS Akuma delivering several blows to the opponent.


So, does one hit from the Raging Demon combo will you or do you have to receive every single blow for the attack to destroy your soul?

That is for you, Akuma voters to answer.

since you claim that it is a one hit kill.


"Talking about wank, it's funny that you accuse others of doing so when you think having a "pure heart" should play a major role whilst being hit by a move which harms the soul. What a joke."

I am not saying it completely negates the attack, but that having that state of mind does reduce the effect of it based on the technicallities of the attack itself in canon.


But i admit i might be wrong by assuming that.


It doesnt matter in my mind, since Goku can still block/counter it just as Asura can.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

(Be more conservative with the spaces, makes your post longer than it should it be)

"In most fictional verses, destroying one's soul kills them or turns them into brainless bodies of meat, something that has happened in the street Fighter verse. (Gill needed to "resurrect" in the Udon Comics, Bison in Street Fighter 2 "died", and Gouken did suffer physical damage.)

So, with these examples, I think I can surely confirm that the Raging Demon MUST show some physical contact or damage."

I disagree with you completely, you're forgetting that "most fictional verses" don't live under the same roof. So you can't say "oh because soul attacks are portrayed this way in these different series; the raging demon has to conform to that portrayal as a result!" Actually, what is your point here? It seems to be something like "raging demon isn't soul damage because x, y and z verses portray it in this manner" but that would be a strange point to make considering that you've seemed to follow the notion that it does do soul damage.

Alright, I'm going to propose something simple as to avoid any more confusion. You should prove either of the following objectively, that Goku does indeed have some form of resistance to soul damaging attacks or that the raging demon itself isn't a form of soul damage. Failure to obligate will result in this thread being very quickly shut down with Akuma as the victor. I urge you not to rush out a response.

(I apologise for how weirdly formatted this post is by the way, how it's being like this is unknown to me).

 

[EnoYaka]

Goku wouldn't get hit with that attack anyway (even if he did he'd still win the match), and he outclasses akuma in nearly every category except stamina (which wouldn't come into play much at all) It would be robbing goku to give this to Akuma in my view

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Oh, i am just saying that the Raging Demon does not seem to only damage the soul of the opponent. I mean, it does, but it also shows physical damage.

I am claiming Goku can block/counter some of the attacks from the Raging Demon combo, which would indeed do an unknown amount of damage to his soul, but not as much as getting hit by every single blow of the technique. Once again, Asura survived the attack twice, why do you instantly assume that means he has soul attack inmunity or resistance instead of thinking that dodging/countering/blocking blows takes some "soul damage" away? Remember that if you assume, you make an ass our of u and me.

Also, i think determinating a debate by a challenge to me (And not letting the others who voted for Goku also have a word) is kind of unfair, don´t ya think? After all, most of you havent refuted the fact that Goku can use Instant Transmission to charge attacks and deliver them by sensing Akuma in a Stellar range, instead of just basing you arguments on a single technique Goku can dodge by teleporting away. Its not like Oni cannot be killed by physical damage as well or the spirit bomb´s advantage on evil beings like him.

Most of the votes in Akuma´s favour have been refuted by futher arguments made by me and the development of the debate, so how about both of us work on answering each others questions?

 

[ScarletFirefly]

The way I see it, there are 2 possibilities:

1. Asura has resistance to Soul damaging attacks

2. Asura can do his own version of the Raging Demon. This is backed up by the fact that when E.Ryu and Asura exchange blows, a kanji is seen above each of their heads, a symbol exclusively associated with the Raging Demon in the SF verse. This is even further backed up with E.Ryu's Street Fighter Alpha 3 boss battle, Shin Akuma. They glide towards each other and exchange blows cancelling each-other's Raging Demon.

Either way, Goku doesn't have either of these, nor does he have some kind of workaround to protect his soul.

Also it's VERY out of character for Goku to teleport away from the battlefield and charge his Spirit Bomb. Even if he somehow managed to complete it, which is very unlikely, what prevents Gouki from going intangible and bypassing the Spirit Bomb entirely?

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Well, the way I see it, there are other possibilities like...

Asura could have countered/blocked some blows, which weakened the Raging Demon enough to keep afloat.

I really dont understand why do you instantly jump to the conclution of soul resistance when there is so much going on.

But maybe, is it just because its the option that benefits you the most in this debate?


Not to mention that he did not show anything of his "own version of the raging demon" in his fight with Oni, he legit punched out of it, so i think that dismisses that second possibility of yours.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

You cant just punch back an attack that damage the soul...blocking wouldnt help either because its not damaging his physical body...

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Oh yeah, lets not forget that non-canon Raging Demon might be weaker than the main one.

I mean, it feailed to kill someone's soul twice. A soul that is in no way as pure as Gouken's or Goku's. I mean, lets not be biased and discuss all the cards on the table first.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Well, the way I see it, there are other possibilities like...
Asura could have countered/blocked some blows, which weakened the Raging Demon enough to keep afloat.

I really dont understand why do you instantly jump to the conclution of soul resistance when there is so much going on.

No it's actually the most logical way. A soul attacking technique attacks something you can't even perceive. How can you protect something you can't perceive?

Not to mention that he did not show anything of his "own version of the raging demon" in his fight with Oni, he legit punched out of it, so i think that dismisses that second possibility of yours.

That's because he already did that with Evil Ryu so there's be no point to it. Also Oni didn't have the kanji above his head either, now you're saying Oni can't do the Demon either?

EDIT: I won't be able to respond to this thread anymore for some hours.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

"why do you instantly assume that means he has soul attack immunity or resistance instead of thinking that dodging/countering/blocking blows takes some "soul damage" away?"

Let's say you read a comic in where Superman punches a knife being thrown at him by a thug; in the process manages to break it. It makes more sense to say "Yeah Superman's durability and punching power would allow him to easily do that and come out unscathed" than to say "Superman took the knives power away (hence how he wasn't harmed); it's durability (hence how he managed to break it)."

The same thing applies to Asura managing to punch out the Raging Demon, it's not the punches which managed to allow him to resist it's soul harming abilities it's just that Asura himself just has a resistance to damage to the soul. If there's a scan that's like "oh yeah just gotta punch in this specific way to make the soul damage null" then you have a point. But, there's nothing like that.

"I think determinating a debate by a challenge to me (And not letting the others who voted for Goku also have a word) is kind of unfair, don´t ya think?"

I think determining a debate via answering vital questions with something agreeable is more important than whether or not you find it to be unfair; I don't think I made it exclusive to you, so anyone could have answered my questions if need be & that'd be absolutely fine. Speaking of, you haven't answered my questions how I described. So thing's are not looking good at all for the life expectancy of this thread.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Just leaving this here before I go.

Please don't start with the Goku is pure of heart stuff. He is by his world's standards, he's not by what Buddhism considers sin (the Raging Demon is based on it). No matter who it is, you are definitely not allowed to kill any sentient being. Goku is kinda far from being pure considering this. Also I mentioned several other times his other negative emotions like rage and gluttony. So yeah, Goku is not pure when it comes to Divine Punishment.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

(Gotta sleep. Sorry)

Alright. No more pure of heart Goku it is.

I am just saying he is "pure-r" than Asura. And he still suevived the attack twice.

Also, why do you rely on a single technique? Are you all gonna ignore all the ways Goku has to beat Akuma that were stated earlier in the thread? Democracy is indeed a mistake if most reasons for the votes have been contradicted already

 

[RadicalMrR]

"Devilmite Beam: it amplifies all the dark thoughts of his opponent."

Goku is selfish, gluttonous, easy to rage and sometimes even kills his opponents but by DB standards those arent "bad". Just because the raging demon can kill someone in its verse because of those reasons doesnt mean it would work on someone in a different verse with completely different standards. Verse equalization kills the raging demon.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

"Devilmite Beam: it amplifies all the dark thoughts of his opponent."
Goku is selfish, gluttonous, easy to rage and sometimes even kills his opponents but by DB standards those arent "bad". Just because the raging demon can kill someone in its verse because of those reasons doesnt mean it would work on someone in a different verse with completely different standards. Verse equalization kills the raging demon.

I'm actually glad you mentioned this because there is someone exactly the same as Goku is SF. Gouken,

His motto is "Concentrate not on destroying your foe, but on attaining your own victory." He never kills his opponents. When studying the Ansatsuken (fighting style expecially tailored to killing you opponent) under Goutetsu, Gouken developed his own fighting style (Hado no Chikara), caring more for the spiritual aspect and harmony. He developed his Hadoken and Shoryuken into self-defense techniques and removed their killing potential. He refused his first student because he sought revenge and that was a dark path according to Gouken.

When challenged by Akuma, he defeated him and spared his life.

And yet he fell to Akuma's Raging Demon the next time they battled

Gouken is exactly the same as Goku, if not more peaceful than him, since he doesn't kill. If Gouken can be defeated by the Raging Demon, there's no reason why Goku wouldn't.

EDIT: Also check this out:

Goku: For you to cry...for you to beg of me must have been awfully difficult I bet. I understand, it wasn't that your fellow Saiyajins had been killed that was rough on you, having to do as he told you must have been worse then anything you could stand. I hated you so much...but you had your Saiyajin pride and now I too will share in some of that pride of yours. I am a Saiyajin raised on Earth! For all the Saiyajins that were killed by you (Freeza). As well as all the Namekians here. I am going to beat you!
Goku has felt hatred, pride, has killed. How isn't that sinful?

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Also, why do you rely on a single technique? Are you all gonna ignore all the ways Goku has to beat Akuma that were stated earlier in the thread? Democracy is indeed a mistake if most reasons for the votes have been contradicted already

Almost forgot to answer you. If you read my very first comment on this thread, the Raging Demon isn't the sole reason that my vote goes to Gouki. I said he has way more stamina that Goku, has more experience and his intangibility is an invaluable asset.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Winning a matchup isn't about who was the most ways to off someone. It's about what's more likely to happen.

 

[FTW395]

Goku instant kamehameha's Akuma into oblivion. The raging demon technique won't work either since goku doesn't have any negative feelings in his body.

Edit: By the way, why do people assume Akuma has better stamina than Goku?

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Winning a matchup isn't about who was the most ways to off someone. It's about what's more likely to happen.

So, even if Goku WILL go for the kill early and can instantly surprise him with insta kamehameha, you think Akuma will go for a Raging Demon right at the beggining of the fight? (Ignoring he started slow with asura and that it is not in his character to go all out in the beggining, the raging demon is the most powerful thing he has, ya know?)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The IT Kamehameha isn't a 1 hit kill everyone. DB characters have a thing about less durability without their guards up. Likely why Cell was obliterated in one hit. Also, @FTW. 500 years of straight up fighting with Asura.

Oni has no character. No morals. It even says that on the SF Wiki. Saying he'll not go for the Raging Demon is like saying that Goku won't go for the Kamehameha. Also, you're saying Goku will go for a technique he only used once ever, and you're telling me that Akuma won't go for the Raging Demon?

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Also, you're saying Goku will go for a technique he only used once ever, and you're telling me that Akuma won't go for the Raging Demon?

This. Goku has used that attack like two times. He used it again against Beerus and it did nothing to him.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Really.

Someone explain to me why Goku being hit by thr raging demon is "more likely" than Goku using an instant kamehameha?

 

[Miles_Romero12]

The IT Kamehameha isn't a 1 hit kill everyone. DB characters have a thing about less durability without their guards up. Likely why Cell was obliterated in one hit. Also, @FTW. 500 years of straight up fighting with Asura.

Oni has no character. No morals. It even says that on the SF Wiki. Saying he'll not go for the Raging Demon is like saying that Goku won't go for the Kamehameha. Also, you're saying Goku will go for a technique he only used once ever, and you're telling me that Akuma won't go for the Raging Demon?

Yes. I am sayong just that. Its more likely for Goku to go for the kill FIRST.

There are three notions to this. 1.-Oni STILL starts slow and wants to test his opponent to see if it is worthy to fight him. (Proof of this? The Asura vs Oni battle. If Oni didnt go for the kill at the start with asura, why would he do it with Goku?!

2.-Goku can sense evil ki. (Aka. He wouldnt play around as long as you think. Goku knowing Oni is evil from thr start is a huge advantage.)

So, this pretty much means Goku would go for the kill first.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Someone should count FTW's vote.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Could someone tell me the score? I've been gone awhile