COLLIDING FISTS OF KI! Son Goku vs Akuma

[Ryukama]

Exactly.

Why would Akuma go instantly for the Raging Demon against Goku? And you still have not proven that Asura has soul resistance if he ounched thru the attack twice.

For me, it looks like you are going to have some trouble proving that.

Physically surviving and negating an attack to the soul is a feat of soul resistance. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

Does Goku no longer have Time Resistance, as he only used his ki to negate Hit's attack?

So if an attack is explicitly meant to damage the soul of someone upon contact, and someone who was hit by it did not have their soul damaged, that is not proof of that person having soul resistance?

Akuma has gone for Raging Demon at the beginning before. And saying he'd use it are much more reasonable assumptions than saying anyone in fiction can survive a soul attack or that Goku will spam an attack he only ever used twice.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

And this just proves that you didnt read the entiee thread, we argumented that Goku can charge the spirit bomb as much as he wsnts by teleporting somewhere else and throwing it at Akuma from a distace.

I'm not even gonna entertain this idea. This is REALLY out of Goku's character. Also apparently Goku can now leave the battlefield, but when Oni knocks him in space, that's now allowed?

 

[FTW395]

Here

To me Asura didn't block all of those attacks, seeing how he was worn out after the struggle. Besides this looks like a standard game clash, where you could also lose and thus get killed by the Raging Demon. Meaning Asura doesn't have soul attack resistance. Point A: even tho he won he still got worn out from the clash, Point B: you can lose the clash and thus get killed by Raging Demon, if he had soul resistance neither of these would be possible.

Edit: Point C, if he had soul resistance he wouldn't need to block the attacks.

 

[Ryukama]

Resistance =/= Immunity. You don't have to entirely tank a soul attack to be able to resist one. Even if we're assuming Asura doesn't have immunity, he at least has a resistance to soul attacks. Goku does not.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

^Except for the story to actually continue as it's supposed to, you have to input the buttons. And resistance doesn't mean immunity.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

I'm not even gonna entertain this idea. This is REALLY out of Goku's character. Also apparently Goku can now leave the battlefield, but when Oni knocks him in space, that's now allowed?

The OP said NO BFR. That doesnt mean Goku can't leave the battlefield, we already had that checked out at rhe beggoning of the thread.

And let me guess, what isnt against Goku's character? Losing?

You still claim oni is Soullesss and will not do anything but kill the opponent at the first chance he gets! That contradicts the Asura fight as proven earlier!

 

[FTW395]

Resistance =/= Immunity. You don't have to entirely tank a soul attack to be able to resist one. Even if we're assuming Asura doesn't have immunity, he at least has a resistance to soul attacks. Goku does not.

Then you're assuming he has resistance, nothing shows he has specific resistance to this attack. It just shows people like Asura can parry/block it. It isn't even notified on Asura's profile that he has soul resistance. Otherwise you could argue that no other verse has "Dragonball ki resistance" and thus they all one-shot the other verses. Asura still gets damaged from the Raging Demon, but he's strong enough to not get killed by it.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

</div> Physically surviving and negating an attack to the soul is a feat of soul resistance. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

Does Goku no longer have Time Resistance, as he only used his ki to negate Hit's attack?

So if an attack is explicitly meant to damage the soul of someone upon contact, and someone who was hit by it did not have their soul damaged, that is not proof of that person having soul resistance?

Akuma has gone for Raging Demon at the beginning before. And saying he'd use it are much more reasonable assumptions than saying anyone in fiction can survive a soul attack or that Goku will spam an attack he only ever used twice. </div>

I object to this as well.

We have no proof that this is the case since Asura has no soul resistance feats in the main game and this only proves that you can avoid getting your soul crushed by countering/dodging blows from the rsging demon COMBO.

Goku has time resistance by being inmune to a time stop, Goku destroyed a separate time space with Hit, but that has nothing to do woth this.


You forget, my friend. This isnt Canon akuma. This entire backstory is good as unknown at this point, and you really cant prove otherwise.

I never said goku would spam it, he is usong it just as he did with Perfect Cell i dont see how is that out of character. He still aimed at Cell's upper body and blew up his head. I dont see why he wouldnt do this against Oni.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

The OP said NO BFR. That doesnt mean Goku can't leave the battlefield, we already had that checked out at rhe beggoning of the thread.

And let me guess, what isnt against Goku's character? Losing?

Actually now that you mention it, it is more in Goku's character to forfeit a fight than use such underhanded tactics to win the fight. Why didn't Goku use such tactic against Buu?

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Actually now that you mention it, it is more in Goku's character to forfeit a fight than use such underhanded tactics to win the fight. Why didn't Goku use such tactic against Buu?

He gave up the fight against Buu because he wanted gontenks and Gohan to kill him.

And do not change the topic.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

He gave up the fight against Buu because he wanted gontenks and Gohan to kill him.

Wasn't he the one that blew Buu to kingdom come with the Spirit Ball?

Also another thing, the Spirit Ball requires energy from outside sources. Outside help is not allowed.

 

[FTW395]

@ScarletFirefly Goku won't just simply surrender and accept his death if he has no other choice. It is not in character for Goku to forfeit a match when he has no other options left.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

"We have no proof that this is the case since Asura has no soul resistance feats in the main game and this only proves that you can avoid getting your soul crushed by countering/dodging blows from the raging demon COMBO."

An utterly worthless point, this doesn't change the fact that the raging demon attacks the soul. Nor does it change the fact that resisting an attack which harms the soul gives you resistance to said ability; I really don't understand why you cannot understand such simple deductive reasoning. In all honesty, I really think you should just stop. As the only contributions you've provided to this thread is dragging it on for far longer than it should be; giving people here a headache as a result of your points.

 

[Ryukama]

"We have no proof that this is the case since Asura has no soul resistance feats in the main game."

Once again, physically enduring and negating an attack that attacks souls upon contact is a feat of soul resistance. By your logic Goku's fight wasn't a feat of Time Resistance. Everyone in fiction can just negate it if they have high ki.

"You forget, my friend. This isnt Canon akuma. This entire backstory is good as unknown at this point, and you really cant prove otherwise."

Yet you're saying Asura can't have soul resistance because of no feats in "the main game." If we can't judge Akuma's powers based on the main canon, you can't do the same to Asura.

"I never said goku would spam it, he is using it just as he did with Perfect Cell i dont see how is that out of character. He still aimed at Cell's upper body and blew up his head. I dont see why he wouldnt do this against Oni."

Oni can survive a single High 4-C attack, that's why.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Hey! I have these three ways goku would win!

"Its not in his character to use any of those methods to win!"


Then what the hell are we doing here? You are just denying facts.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Hey! I have these three ways goku would win!
"Its not in his character to use any of those methods to win!"

Do you want me to say Oni can just go intangible and bypass the Spirit Bomb entirely? Because I've already mentioned that also. Also nice strawman you got there.

 

[FTW395]

"Everyone in fiction can just negate it if they have high ki" Yes that is true, Goku overcame Hit's time based techniques through sheer power.

According to your logic people could say the same about Dragonball. Everyone in Dragonball has some form of KI resistance, but other verses don't hence Goku can one-shot other verses. Nothing if this clip suggest Asura has Soul resistance, he still got hurt by the ragingdemon and if you fail to parry the combo he dies. Asura is just strong enough to parry Evil ryu's ragingdemon.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Looks at thread length

Uhh... I think this thread is too derailed to be added even if it becomes conclusive.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Do you want me to say Oni can just go intangible and bypass the Spirit Bomb entirely? Because I've already mentioned that also. Also nice strawman you got there.

So, you assume Goku cannot block or dodge the raging demon because he "lets his guard down" but Akuma can go intangible even if taken by surprise by a giant ball of goodness or an instant wave of destruction?

If Perfect Cell got his head blown up by that attack, i dont see how Oni wouldnt.

 

[Ryukama]

"Everyone in fiction can just negate it if they have high ki" Yes that is true, Goku overcame Hit's time based techniques through sheer power.

According to your logic people could say the same about Dragonball. Everyone in Dragonball has some form of KI resistance, but other verses don't hence Goku can one-shot other verses. Nothing if this clip suggest Asura has Soul resistance, he still got hurt by the ragingdemon and if you fail to parry the combo he dies. Asura is just strong enough to parry Evil ryu's ragingdemon.

Just like some verse don't have ki resitance, Goku does not have soul resistance. And again, Asura has a feat of resisting a soul attack. Plus again resistance =/= immunity. Asura doesn't have to take no damage to have a resistance.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

If Perfect Cell got his head blown up by that attack, i dont see how Oni wouldnt.

Ryu already answered this, I won't bother with this again.

So, you assume Goku cannot block or dodge the raging demon because he "lets his guard down" but Akuma can go intangible even if taken by surprise by a giant ball of goodness or an instant wave of destruction?

Again Spirit Bomb is outside help, not allowed. Also speed is equalized, Oni will see the Bomb coming, it's kinda hard to miss.

EDIT: I'm tired and will retire for the day.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Ryu already answered this, I won't bother with this again.

So, you assume Goku cannot block or dodge the raging demon because he "lets his guard down" but Akuma can go intangible even if taken by surprise by a giant ball of goodness or an instant wave of destruction?

Again Spirit Bomb is outside help, not allowed. Also speed is equalized, Oni will see the Bomb coming, it's kinda hard to miss.

"Cal made a proofless and invalid argument so that means its right"

I have already contradicted this.

You are biased.

You claim goku will be hit with every single technique Oni does and that oni will go intangible INSTANTLY before any of goku's.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Use Instant Transmission Kamehameha then.

I am amused on how you insist on mot using outside help but hold into that "in character argument" when it suits you.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

No one is claiming Goku will be hit by every single technique, don't be ridiculous. I'm just saying Oni has a better chance to win the fight. And I fail to see the connection between outside help and "in character argument".

Anyway, I won't be replying more for the day. I'll take a look again tomorrow.

 

[Ryukama]

I have had to repeat my arguments countless times now and most of the responses I get are the same things I was countering in the first place. I'm no longer arguing this. Any final decision made about this thread I'm fine with.

 

[FTW395]

Just like some verse don't have ki resitance, Goku does not have soul resistance. And again, Asura has a feat of resisting a soul attack. Plus again resistance =/= immunity. Asura doesn't have to take no damage to have a resistance.

But do these verses get one-shotted by ki based attacks?

 

[Miles_Romero12]

You were arguing not only that Goku WOULD be hit by the Raging Demon, but that Oni would START with that technique and that Oni WOULD dodge everything by becoming intangible in the nick of time.

You claimed the last thing with the solar flare, spirit bomb and Kamehameha.

If that is not a bias, i dont know what is.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Well, I guess I'm skipping dinner.

I never said Goku would be 100% get hit by the Raging Demon, it's just that it's a likely scenario. This is a theoretical fight after all.

Also never said Oni would start with it, just said that Akuma has been shown to start the fight with it, It is also a thing likely to happen.

Also never said Oni would dodge everything, just said that his intangibility is an "invaluable asset".

Never even mentioned Solar Flare to be honest.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

I have had to repeat my arguments countless times now and most of the responses I get are the same things I was countering in the first place. I'm no longer arguing this. Any final decision made about this thread I'm fine with.

Repeating the same arguments that have already been refuted isnt really debating, tho

 

[ScarletFirefly]

At this point I'd be fine if the mods closed the thread and marked it inconclusive. This is going in circles and it's not likely other people will go over this thread to vote considering how absurdly long it is.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Well, I guess I'm skipping dinner.

I never said Goku would be 100% get hit by the Raging Demon, it's just that it's a likely scenario. This is a theoretical fight after all.

Also never said Oni would start with it, just said that Akuma has been shown to start the fight with it, It is also a thing likely to happen.

Also never said Oni would dodge everything, just said that his intangibility is an "invaluable asset".

Never even mentioned Solar Flare to be honest.

You said that if you were getting blinded you would go intangible. That is dismissed because Oni can get stunned in Asura's Wrath and in SF.

And he has only started the fight ONCE against Bison

He held the raging demon in Asura's Wrath to the mid fight against Asura.

Why not against Goku?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That was me who said that. Although being blinded =/= being stunned.

Also, likely reason why he held it from Asura is because it's a game. Same reason Ganondorf doesn't lead with possession despite hating Link for thousands of years and being pretty damn smart, and Bowser doesn't hax Mario, or why Marx doesn't just keep his black hole open to say invulnerable and do massive damage to Kirby.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

OK, so unless I missed anything the score is

Goku: 8

Akuma: 9

Inconclusive: 2

 

[Miles_Romero12]

It means Oni cannot react instantly to anything likr you said, pal.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

"IS BECAUSE ITS A GAME"

Oh,boy.

You have just dug your own grave.

Both moments are SCRIPTED to happen in the episode. Therefor, they are both canon just as much cutscenes are.

Come on, argument scripted sequences are not part of the story.

If you dont, i guess we all know how this match goes.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

JUST like canonically, Ganondorf uses his hax on Zelda, but not Link.

Just like canonically, Bowser petrifies everyone in the mushroom kingdom, but throws hammers and fire at Mario.

Just like canonically, Marx Soul leads with his black hole, by for some reason closes it in seconds.

So no. I didn't dig my own grave.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Yes you did.

This clarifies that the Raging Dmeon in the Asura's Wrath universe is either not as strong as the regular one OR it is blockeable.

Even if what you say is true, this ends up discarding the Raging Demon from the fight entirely or inconclusive.

Booya

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

False. First off, being a game/being gameplay mechanics. So my point till stands. The fact that you actually have to press buttons for it proves my point, because that implies that there's a chance that it did or didn't hit. Script wise, you counter Ganondorf's attack in Wind Waker to end the game. Does that mean that every swing from Ganondorf can be countered, and it will be his demise? No. Not at all. Scriptwise, Kirby uses a final weapon to take out Whispy Woods. Does that mean he is forced to use on of his strongest abilities to defeat an 8-C? No. Not at all.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

It is not part of game mechanics if its scripted to happen beyond any of the player's control.

So both raging demons are still "canon."

Your point implies that you thinl that raging demon is a one hit kill when that contradicts Asura's Wrath, Street fighter V and even the official statements of the attack.

Sorry man, but you either biased or not reading the thread well enough. It was already proven that the raging demon is a combination of attacks that do a certain amoumt of damage to your soul. Asura blocked some of them thus, reduced the damage of it significally.

The attacks do have to affect and damage the physical body, like it has been shown with Gouken, Bison and Gill. This means Goku can easly also block the attack just as Asura did.

End this charade.

 

[FTW395]

False. First off, being a game/being gameplay mechanics. So my point till stands. The fact that you actually have to press buttons for it proves my point, because that implies that there's a chance that it did or didn't hit. Script wise, you counter Ganondorf's attack in Wind Waker to end the game. Does that mean that every swing from Ganondorf can be countered, and it will be his demise? No. Not at all. Scriptwise, Kirby uses a final weapon to take out Whispy Woods. Does that mean he is forced to use on of his strongest abilities to defeat an 8-C? No. Not at all.

Did you just confirm that the raging demon can be blocked or dodged?