COLLIDING FISTS OF KI! Son Goku vs Akuma

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not sure about the Buu saga (though it was likely that he was checking to see if his son was alive, which is much more important), but he had a serious reason and was being informed about Frieza. Not to mention that it required a ton of ki to lock on to then, and Akuma doesn't have the amount of ki RoF Gohan has.

I'm talking about a spirit bomb. Not a kamehameha. The IT kamehameha argument was about that Akuma isn't gonna wait there like Cell to set up the attack. Not to mention the attack blowing Cell apart (which you guys are just assuming that it will one-shot because of that) seems more like plot, as Cell later isn't instantly obliterated by the much stronger SSJ2 Gohan. Also, once again, Akuma has his own teleporation and ki blasts. I feel like we're going in circles here.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

@Miles. If I had intangibility and was blinded, I would go intangible to prevent me from getting rekt.

How would you know some Orangi gi wearing monkey guy doing a ridiculous pose would end up in you getting blinded?

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

How was that a gambit? He wanted to fire a kamehameha at Cell, but didn't want to take the planet with him. So he tp'd down to him from his position in the sky to right in front of him. You're saying the the IT wouldn't be an effective way of attacking, when my example proves that it would be. Goku had been working with the technique for a while by the Cell saga, so it's not to unbelievable that he could use it in rapid succession. He even did it when he tp'd to Roshi's house and came back like a second after. There's your spam.

 

[AnonymouXOtakuX]

Not sure about the Buu saga (though it was likely that he was checking to see if his son was alive, which is much more important), but he had a serious reason and was being informed about Frieza. Not to mention that it required a ton of ki to lock on to then, and Akuma doesn't have the amount of ki RoF Gohan has.
I'm talking about a spirit bomb. Not a kamehameha. The IT kamehameha argument was about that Akuma isn't gonna wait there like Cell to set up the attack. Not to mention the attack blowing Cell apart (which you guys are just assuming that it will one-shot because of that) seems more like plot, as Cell later isn't instantly obliterated by the much stronger SSJ2 Gohan. Also, once again, Akuma has his own teleporation and ki blasts. I feel like we're going in circles here.

he can just teleport to king kai's place and back when he's done charging the kamehameha which doesn't even take 1 minute, and akuma doesn't have ki sensing which means he can't follow him

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@AO. Sensing isn't precog. He can know where he is. He can't predict his movements. Sensing is gonna be pretty useless here, since Akuma can't go invisible or has afterimages or illusions.

 

[AnonymouXOtakuX]

@AO. Sensing isn't precog. He can know where he is. He can't predict his movements. Sensing is gonna be pretty useless here, since Akuma can't go invisible or has afterimages or illusions.

goku has faced afterimages before, sure he can't completly predict akuma's movement, but he can at least know where he is

 

[AnonymouXOtakuX]

you what im going to sleep im tired, lets continue this tomorrow

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Also, the only reason Cell stood there was because he thought he had called Goku's bluff. He knew Goku would never destroy the planet where he was raised and all his family and friends were on, so he was lulled into a false sense of security. That's why he was so baffled when Goku suddenly tp'd in front of him

 

[Miles_Romero12]

@AO. Sensing isn't precog. He can know where he is. He can't predict his movements. Sensing is gonna be pretty useless here, since Akuma can't go invisible or has afterimages or illusions.

Sensing is actually the key factor that gives Goku the ability to be freely able to charge any attacks he wants, launch them and teleport back instantly to a place Akuma has literally no way to track down.


Even if he was ADHD and gets bored in literally less than a minute and leaves the planet, Goku can still teleport in front, behind, on top, or under Akuma and fire Kamehameha´s until one of them hits and kills him.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Okay. For everyone else here. Look at your argument. If Goku has done that before, then great. Continue with your post. If he hasn't then don't continue.

@Miles. Not my point at all. The point is the fact that I got blinded. I'm not going to let someone hit me while I'm down when I have an unbeatable defense.

@PTS. Firstly, if you have a victor in your head, you shouldn't have made this thread with bias. Secondly, no it hasn't. Goku deceived everyone thinking he was that fed up. This isn't even an argument. It's clear as day that wasn't a spam. And your spam example also isn't spam either, because one, he wasn't in combat, two, he wasn't using an attack, and three, it was a demonstration where he grabbed glasses. And I already said that it isn't useless, but just that it's not as effective as people are making it, especially with counters.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Stay up for a couple more minutes, this is already kind of over anyways.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Miles. You know what. I'm just gonna change my argument to suit your argument of out of character. Akuma stays intangible until Goku gets too tired and then solidifies inside Goku. Or planet busts and gets it over with (funny enough, that's not out of character) There. No diff at all.

@PTS. Yes. You're starting to follow my point. Because Oni doesn't have the same mindset as Cell. Goku knew (or at least assumed) what everyone would do, and doesn't have that luxury this time around.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Wait. Oni Akuma´s range is planetary while Goku´s Stellar with ki blasts and attacks.


Okay, i think this thread is already over.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Don't got a winner, just threw my two cents in, someone tried to throw it back, threw two dimes in, then two quarters, then two bucks. Notice how I never said who'd win.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Isnt this massive difference in range enough to end this battle?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Miles. That would matter if Goku actually abused range over a few hundred kilometers.

@PTS. In that case, I apologize for getting into it with you.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

I'm just gonna let this post go it's own path

Goku: 7

Akuma: 6

Inconclusive: 2

What kind of a monster have I created...

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Well, this is my take on this fight.

Goku can sense Akuma on a Multi-Universal scale since the Cell Saga. So no matter where he goes, Goku will be able to track him down and launch Instant Kamehamehas.

Goku has far superior range, making all attacks he launches FAR more likely to hit Oni than any raging demon reaching Goku.

Akuma Can not sense nor teleport to Goku if he decides to leave the planet and charge attacks as he pleases.

Goku still has had more martial arts training in terms of time and masters.

The Spirit bomb would indeed cause damage to Akuma and Goku has literally all the time he needs to charge it and throw it at Akuma.

Goku and Akuma are both at the same speed in this battle, so i can see Goku blocking/countering 1/3rds of the raging demon, which would leave a human in coma. (Notice the "human" in that sentence.), not to mention Goku´s pure heart would reduce the damage of the technique, which is not a 1 hit kill neither in the street fighter series nor in Asura´s Wrath, since Asura (Who isnt in any shape or form "pure of heart", to be able to easly counter it without any indication of getting comatose.


So, for these reasons, i can safely say that, in my opinion, Goku would win this fight.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

False for point one. Even Super!Goku doesn't have that range.

Goku has lost to people with range in the hundreds of meters. Range means nothing.

Never done that before, so moot. Please stop arguing with points of things that Goku has never used on a combat situation before? Otherwise, Akuma leads with planet busting GG.

Masters, sure, even though all of his masters basically learned from Korrin. But time? Not in the slightest. Not that it matters anyway.

False. He doesn't have all the time, especially not in character.

Other than some monkey traits, Goku is basically a human, considering he dan contract human viruses, procreate with humans, etc. And Gouken would like a word with the pure of heart thing. Finally, canonically, it has been a one shot in the series if it weren't for some soul shenanigans here and there. Asura blocked it blow for blow.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

"Gouken survived the Shun Goku Satsu by being pure of heart and using the power of nothing, which is effectively not giving yourself into a killing intent, just like Goku."

Prove that to be the case; I may give the vote to Goku. But, that's now how Gouken survived the technique at all. It was through literally emptying his soul (hence the name, power of nothingness). Here's my reference

I give my vote to Akuma.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Goku: 7

Akuma: 7

Inconclusive: 2

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Objection!

1.-His page on this wikia clearly states that his instant transmision can reach that far.

And his sensing its at least star level, which is far enough for Goku to keep Akuma on his sights.

2.-Range means that Goku has an advantage in this battle, i am pointing that out.

3.-"Never has done that before" or "He hasnt done that in a very long time" is not an argument as long it´s stated on his profile.

4.-"Masters, sure, even though all of his masters basically learned from Korrin. But time? Not in the slightest. Not that it matters anyway."

King Kai learned from Korrin? The Instant Transmission Aliens from Yardat learned from Korrin? Are you being serious here?

Not to mention Goku has larger experience with different types of opponents.

Akuma has only fought super powered humans with very limited range.

5.-But he does, I have already explained Akuma doesnt have ki sensing nor is able to teleport to a ki source instantly like Goku can, also, are you just using "in character" to try and invalidate all methods Goku can use to win? That is not a good argument.

6.-It was implied Goku got the heart disease from Yardat, i don´t see how you are expecting to Prove human anatomy is the same as Saiyan Anatomy.

Not to mention that we have aleady proven the fact that the Raging Demon is not a one hit kill.

It didnt kill Gouken and it didnt kill Bison. (Before you try to refute this, remember that the SF4 interlude shorts are considered canon in this website. where it shows Bison surviving the end of SF2.)


@Austrian

Looks like i made a mistake.

That doesnt matter as long Goku has the superior range.

It is kind of weird to give your vote when almost all of cal´s points have been refuted in the thread, tho.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

My ponta have been refuted? You're arguing in cirrcles as,

That's for IT. And Super only at that.

2. Not if he doesn't abuse this. Name one time Goku has attacked someone across planetary distances and I'll concede otherwise, your argument is flawed.

3. False on so many levels. Read the Standard Battle Assumptions please.

4. Fair enough. I'll admit I was wrong. And even then, Yardrats didn't have a master/student interaction.

5. See point three.

6. Burden of proof is on you to prove so. And there is far more evidence proving Goku having human anatomy than otherwise, and even then. Doesn't matter as this is a SOUL ATTACK

7. Gouken nearly died. Bison survived through soul transfer.

 

[Ryukama]

3.-"Never has done that before" or "He hasnt done that in a very long time" is not an argument as long it´s stated on his profile.

I'm not putting a vote in this thread, but I have to disagree with this.

Saying someone hasn't done something in a fight or rarely uses it are legitamate arguments. VS threads aren't just arguing what someone can hypothetically do with their abilities. It also has to do with things in character and putting their combat stradegies into question.

If one has never used an ability in a fight or in character wouldn't, then it is fair to assume that they would not use that move in this match. Or at least not start off with it.

We're not just arguing stat vs stat or power vs power. We're arguing character vs character. What someone has or had not done/will and will not do are important things to consider in a fight.

Also if we're going to say Goku will do this one move to win a fight. And the fact he's never done this and in character wouldn't are irrelevant. Then why can't I just say Akuma immediately busts the planet right as the fight starts and wins that way?

 

[Miles_Romero12]

Man.

1.-And i am arguing for IT, what were you thinking about?

2.-MY argument is fraud? You are the one ignoring that Akuma neither has attacked someone across planetary distance nor that it isnt in his character to go all out from the start.

Not to mention you are attempting to refute some of the methods of victory for Goku i have said by just saying "Its not in his character".

Also, i forgot to say it again.

Goku can sense evil ki, i don´t see how much will you push that Goku wouldnt eventually try to actually murder Akuma in order to prevent him to destroy planets or people Goku might care about.

3.-You are the one arguing that, don´t try to pin your logical fallacies on me.

4.-They thought Goku IT, tho.

5.-Okay then, prove Akuma can sense ki and teleport to it instantly.

I will be waiting.

6.-What? The heart virus? Its the same for both ways. Prove it was a regular virus Goku got on earth.

The Raging Demon has shown to be able to be countered by Asura in the DLC and even if Asura does receive one blow, the game doesnt instantly kill you, so maybe all Raging Demons in the battle are non-canon now?

Why didnt Asura die? I think its easy to accept that he isnt as pure as Gouken and he didnt get Comatose like the latter.

Okay, that MIGHT be game mechanics, but even the Street Fighter games have shown that it is not a one hit kill both plotwise (Bison and Gouken) and gameplay wise (13-33 hit combo, half life bar.).

So both sides favor my argument.

7.-Gouken did get comatose, i still have my doubts about Bison, but its really not that important.

Asura managed to survive the Raging Demon by stopping blows. Assuming he dodged/countered evey single blow or just one is game mechanics and invalid in this debate.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

@Ryu

My friend here wants you to believe that, but Akuma actually slowly builds up the fight to find out if his opponent is worhty.

Also, Goku would be able to IT before the planet explotes.

Also, range greatly matters in this battle but Cal is ignoring that and saying Goku EXCLISIVELY goes for Melee.

 

[Ryukama]

@Miles I know Akuma would slowly build up a fight. But if you're arguing that what someone does in character is irrelevant in a fight, then I can just say Akuma will planet bust right off the bat. And if Akuma immediately just one shots the planet, especially out of nowhere, Goku will likely not be able to IT in time.

But that's besides the point. I'm just saying that unlike what you said, bringing up what someone does and does not do in their fights are legitamate arguments.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

In summary, i think Instant Transmission Kamehamehas and Goku´s ki sensing are enough for him to beat Akuma.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You said sensing, so I refuted sensing. And even then, Goku had trouble sensing familiar ki from interstellar distances for IT. I.e., Namekians.

Problem is, this is Oni, who in character will go all out. No humanity at all. And while has less casual range than Goku, has enough normal range to make it a small point.

What? You're the one arguing for out of character responses.

You can teach someone without having a student/master relationship, but this isn't important.

Burden of Proof fallacy.

Burden of proof fallacy, again.

In a cutscene is the only time that was used in AR. Gameplay, 6-C characters can duke it out with Low 7-C characters. I've explained a dozen times how they survived. Power of nothingness and Bison's constant use of body and soul switching.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

(Last response before i go to bed, i dont think this is going anywhere. Neither of us is willing to accept the other´s opinion as absolutely correct, so i think this will go on until someone else votes.)


I said sensing, and i claimed that Goku could use that to keep tabs on Akuma just like he could teleport in front of Perfect Cell, i also claimed Akuma does not have the ability to sense other ki sources.


I know this is Oni, and in Asura´s Wrath, it doesnt show Oni destroying the planet out right in the start of the fight like @Ryu argues he would do, i think Oni still builds up his strenght to determine if someone is worhty of fighting him.


I am saying that eventually Goku will fight to kill Akuma, because he is able to sense evil ki, and that could lead to Goku using Instant Kamehameha on Oni just like he did with Cell.


I agree, it isnt really important. I just dont agree Akuma is superior to Goku in martial arts mastery, i will assume they are on a equal level for this thread from now own.

Excuse me, but you are the one who said, and i quote "Other than some monkey traits, Goku is basically a human, considering he dan contract human viruses, procreate with humans, etc." I dont think you can assume goku is "basically a human" without evidence, specially on the "contract Human viruses" part when it is unknown where Goku contracted said disease.


https://youtu.be/Q3jlJbM6K5I?t=7m37s

Okay in this part (Which could be considered game mechanics even if scripted) shows Akuma hitting Asura with the Raging Demon, Even if perfectly executed, the game still deals a blow to Asura´s lifebar.

This blow isnt an instant game over nor implies Asura´s soul got obliterated.

https://youtu.be/aUB6jidsS5A?t=9m25s

Now, this is Evil Ryu, but he also deals a Raging Demon on Asura.

Asura managed to block some blows but still got hit as shown in the video.

It is not an isntant kill nor it is implied Asura´s soul got obliterated in those blows he received.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'll agree that we'll just be arguing amongst ourselves circularly, so yeah. I won't respond on this again. I got my ideas down and don't need to follow this anymore.

However, I will say that deciding to agree to disagree is actually pretty big of you and I commend that.

 

[Yojimbo1989]

So, as this is going nowhere shall we leave it as inconclusive?

 

[ScarletFirefly]

I'm going with Gouki here due to his absurd stamina, martial art skills/experience, intangibility and the Raging Demon.

Gouki fought with Asura for 500 years, after which he turned to stone, broke out of that state and continued fighting even more. Goku's stamina is nowhere near this level. His stats will drop as the battle drags on and the battle will slowly tip in Gouki's favor.

Also for people saying that Gouken survived the Raging Demon, that is partly wrong. Gouken did survive the Raging Demon, but he was comatose and essentially dead for years because his understanding of the Mu State was lacking. To achieve this state you should rid yourself of all human emotions, achieving spiritual perfection, free of fear, anger, pride, ego, worry, desire and doubt.

Goku has no grasp whatsoever on this technique and has experienced those emotions before so he won't survive the Raging Demon. He has been consumed by the power of rage before (see Super Sayajin 1 transformation), he doesn't hesitate to kill his opponents if they are a threat, his desire to eat and get stronger is essentially unrivaled.

 

[AnonymouXOtakuX]

I'm going with Gouki here due to his absurd stamina, martial art skills/experience, intangibility and the Raging Demon.
Gouki fought with Asura for 500 years, after which he turned to stone, broke out of that state and continued fighting even more. Goku's stamina is nowhere near this level. His stats will drop as the battle drags on and the battle will slowly tip in Gouki's favor.

Also for people saying that Gouken survived the Raging Demon, that is partly wrong. Gouken did survive the Raging Demon, but he was comatose and essentially dead for years because his understanding of the Mu State was lacking. To achieve this state you should rid yourself of all human emotions, achieving spiritual perfection, free of fear, anger, pride, ego, worry, desire and doubt.

Goku has no grasp whatsoever on this technique and has experienced those emotions before so he won't survive the Raging Demon. He has been consumed by the power of rage before (see Super Sayajin 1 transformation), he doesn't hesitate to kill his opponents if they are a threat, his desire to eat and get stronger is essentially unrivaled.

ok what? goku is pure of heart, and that basically the weakness of the raging demon, asura was hell mad, but he still didn't get one shotted, not to mention, that even after bein consumed by his rage and turning super saiyan, he still spared frieza, goku has higher AP, Dura, and Speed (instant transmission), he could use it to his advantage, and remeber goku is way more skilled than akuma, or at least he has shown to be better in my opinion, he is a fighting genious, he could come up with a stratagy

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Goku's pure of heart is completely different from being a void spiritually. Goku cannot get rid of his emotions, he desires to fight strong opponents, he indulges in food etc. As long as he cannot get rid of these, he will fall to the Raging Demon. And Gouki can can throw it out all day, even has a stronger version of it.

Also sure Goku is a martial arts genius, but so is Gouki. Master of the Satsujin Ken, so skilled in fact, that he has yet to fight a worthy opponent. And with much, much more experience than Goku.

As for Goku's teleport, Gouki can also go intangible as I said above.

 

[AnonymouXOtakuX]

Goku's pure of heart is completely different from being a void spiritually. Goku cannot get rid of his emotions, he desires to fight strong opponents, he indulges in food etc. As long as he cannot get rid of these, he will fall to the Raging Demon. And Gouki can can throw it out all day, even has a stronger version of it.
Also sure Goku is a martial arts genius, but so is Gouki. Master of the Satsujin Ken, so skilled in fact, that he has yet to fight a worthy opponent. And with much, much more experience than Goku.

As for Goku's teleport, Gouki can also go intangible as I said above.

like i said, being pure of heart is the weakness of the raging demon, plus asura didn't get affected by it, how is he much more experienced than goku, gouki has no knowlage about goku's IT so he wouldn't know to be intangible when goku chains it with an attack, he also can't track goku's movementsand goku has higher AP, and he can fight at long range as well, he isn't an idiot, if Gouki would use the raging demon, he would sense the danger and teleport away, yeah gouki can teleport, but not like goku, goku can keep tabs on him via ki sensing, and prepare a kamehameha, and cuz IT is instantaneous, he would take right to the face

 

[ScarletFirefly]

I already told you being pure of heart isn't the same with being void spiritually, I'm not going to repeat myself.

Goku doesn't have knowledge on intangibility either.

How in the world would Goku sense the danger of the Raging Demon? He doesn't know what it does, how it does it. Even if he had precognition, he wouldn't know.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Goku: 7

Akuma: 8

Inconclusive: 2

 

[Miles_Romero12]

I already told you being pure of heart isn't the same with being void spiritually, I'm not going to repeat myself.

Goku doesn't have knowledge on intangibility either.

How in the world would Goku sense the danger of the Raging Demon? He doesn't know what it does, how it does it. Even if he had precognition, he wouldn't know.

The same is true for Akuma. Also, Goku has never let himself be hit for a technique blindly.

He can sense evil ki, so he will probably watch out for foul blows from the start.

 

[Miles_Romero12]

And again, Asura survived the Raging Demon from both Oni and Evil ryu by just blocking/countering SOME blows. Its a combo. All hits must land for the soul to be destroyed.

I have already posted videos from the game itself and some of you STILL believe its a one hit kill or that it is going to have the same effect on Goku than someone like M.Bison.

Also,IT can also help Goku dodge it entirely.